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 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Dorn first an foremost is a loyal son though, even if the Emperor is a whacked out psychic mess. He wouldn't turn against Guilliman if it risked the Empire too much, plus he'd likely agree that the changes Guilliman is making are necessary to preserve the Imperium envisioned by their father.

First, Dorn doesn’t even need to return for this to be feasible. He could remain dead/missing. Any one other Primarch could be enough to trigger and rally the rebellion. Second, if Dorn did return, there's nothing to say he wouldn't view Guilliman's actions as, ultimately, heresy and acting against the interests and true will/wishes of the Emperor/Imperium. A comatose dad with two son's both saying they're doing the right thing but have totally different opinions on what that thing is. Dorn was almost willing to go to war with Gilliman once. With the IoM in the state that it is now, it isn't an unreasonable assumption to think that he'd be just as willing, if not more so, now. And yes, he would be absolutely stalwart in his belief that this action is of a forever and utterly loyal son and that it's the right/best thing to do, whether or not that is actually the case. Because that's who Dorn is. Loyal to a fault.

He's not dead since they're now releasing loyalist Primarchs, which means it's only a matter of time before he shows up alive.

The only Primarch we won't see come back is Curze (had his head taken off, wanted to die, no signs of a 'spirit' running around like Ferrus has) and MAYBE Sanguinius, though with the apparent Siege of Terra retcons coming up I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

 Arbitrator wrote:
He's not dead since they're now releasing loyalist Primarchs, which means it's only a matter of time before he shows up alive.

The only Primarch we won't see come back is Curze (had his head taken off, wanted to die, no signs of a 'spirit' running around like Ferrus has) and MAYBE Sanguinius, though with the apparent Siege of Terra retcons coming up I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

Is the retcon for sure happening? Seems so bizarre after having the story poetically entrenched for so many years.

 Aetare wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
He's not dead since they're now releasing loyalist Primarchs, which means it's only a matter of time before he shows up alive.

The only Primarch we won't see come back is Curze (had his head taken off, wanted to die, no signs of a 'spirit' running around like Ferrus has) and MAYBE Sanguinius, though with the apparent Siege of Terra retcons coming up I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

Is the retcon for sure happening? Seems so bizarre after having the story poetically entrenched for so many years.

It's not people are over reacting to a vague statement that the seige of terra doesn't go quite as described in various books etc.

people of course rather then assuming there are some new details and twists assume "ohh they're retconning everything"
given a line in "The Carrion Throne" (a Custodes offers to take the inqusitor to where the Angel fell, and then takes him to the gates leading to the throne room) my over all gut feeling is Sanguinis dies BEFORE the attack on Horus' ship.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Aetare wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
He's not dead since they're now releasing loyalist Primarchs, which means it's only a matter of time before he shows up alive.

The only Primarch we won't see come back is Curze (had his head taken off, wanted to die, no signs of a 'spirit' running around like Ferrus has) and MAYBE Sanguinius, though with the apparent Siege of Terra retcons coming up I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

Is the retcon for sure happening? Seems so bizarre after having the story poetically entrenched for so many years.

It's not people are over reacting to a vague statement that the seige of terra doesn't go quite as described in various books etc.

people of course rather then assuming there are some new details and twists assume "ohh they're retconning everything"
given a line in "The Carrion Throne" (a Custodes offers to take the inqusitor to where the Angel fell, and then takes him to the gates leading to the throne room) my over all gut feeling is Sanguinis dies BEFORE the attack on Horus' ship.

Interesting tidbit at the end there. Hopefully they will explain how things went down sooner rather than later.

 Aetare wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Aetare wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
He's not dead since they're now releasing loyalist Primarchs, which means it's only a matter of time before he shows up alive.

The only Primarch we won't see come back is Curze (had his head taken off, wanted to die, no signs of a 'spirit' running around like Ferrus has) and MAYBE Sanguinius, though with the apparent Siege of Terra retcons coming up I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

Is the retcon for sure happening? Seems so bizarre after having the story poetically entrenched for so many years.

It's not people are over reacting to a vague statement that the seige of terra doesn't go quite as described in various books etc.

people of course rather then assuming there are some new details and twists assume "ohh they're retconning everything"
given a line in "The Carrion Throne" (a Custodes offers to take the inqusitor to where the Angel fell, and then takes him to the gates leading to the throne room) my over all gut feeling is Sanguinis dies BEFORE the attack on Horus' ship.

Interesting tidbit at the end there. Hopefully they will explain how things went down sooner rather than later.

yeah, it's such a minor thing that it's easy to miss, but I could see sanguinis and Olinious dying at the gate, and only then the emperor beaming up, and unleashing on Horus.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Aetare wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Aetare wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
He's not dead since they're now releasing loyalist Primarchs, which means it's only a matter of time before he shows up alive.

The only Primarch we won't see come back is Curze (had his head taken off, wanted to die, no signs of a 'spirit' running around like Ferrus has) and MAYBE Sanguinius, though with the apparent Siege of Terra retcons coming up I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

Is the retcon for sure happening? Seems so bizarre after having the story poetically entrenched for so many years.

It's not people are over reacting to a vague statement that the seige of terra doesn't go quite as described in various books etc.

people of course rather then assuming there are some new details and twists assume "ohh they're retconning everything"
given a line in "The Carrion Throne" (a Custodes offers to take the inqusitor to where the Angel fell, and then takes him to the gates leading to the throne room) my over all gut feeling is Sanguinis dies BEFORE the attack on Horus' ship.

Interesting tidbit at the end there. Hopefully they will explain how things went down sooner rather than later.

yeah, it's such a minor thing that it's easy to miss, but I could see sanguinis and Olinious dying at the gate, and only then the emperor beaming up, and unleashing on Horus.

Would certainly diminish the contribution and legend of Sanguinius though, which I would not at all like to see.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Dorn first an foremost is a loyal son though, even if the Emperor is a whacked out psychic mess. He wouldn't turn against Guilliman if it risked the Empire too much, plus he'd likely agree that the changes Guilliman is making are necessary to preserve the Imperium envisioned by their father.

First, Dorn doesn’t even need to return for this to be feasible. He could remain dead/missing. Any one other Primarch could be enough to trigger and rally the rebellion. Second, if Dorn did return, there's nothing to say he wouldn't view Guilliman's actions as, ultimately, heresy and acting against the interests and true will/wishes of the Emperor/Imperium. A comatose dad with two son's both saying they're doing the right thing but have totally different opinions on what that thing is. Dorn was almost willing to go to war with Gilliman once. With the IoM in the state that it is now, it isn't an unreasonable assumption to think that he'd be just as willing, if not more so, now. And yes, he would be absolutely stalwart in his belief that this action is of a forever and utterly loyal son and that it's the right/best thing to do, whether or not that is actually the case. Because that's who Dorn is. Loyal to a fault.

Dorn did not almost cause the 2nd Civil War, the Imperial Navy did when they opened fire on Dorn for not agreeing and immediately going with Guilliman. He did after that realize the truth in what Guillman was trying to say and ended up committing to the Legions being divided, there was nothing begrudging about it, he just did it. Dorn was also there the first time Guilliman reformed the Empire into something that did work when the two of them were both still alive and he didnt have any qualms with it then, because it was right to stay along side him and preserve the Emperor's dream. There is nothing that has even been said about Dorn that would suggest if he returned he would like the state of the current Empire, it wasn't what his father wanted and it certainly wasn't what he, Guilliman and his brothers worked to hold together during the scouring.

The current Imperium is a complete mockery of everything he and his brothers did. Dorn has not presently been shown to continue to resist Guilliman after the Second Founding. One thing you say that I do agree with, is that Dorn is Loyal to a fault and that wouldn't be to the Imperium as it is, it would be to the Imperium he knew when he was still at large and to the father he wept for. Unless the Emperor specifically told Dorn that he didn't like Guilliman reforming the Empire to be closer to what it should be, there is absolutely no way he'd fight Guilliman over fixing the Empire. That wasn't what their first squable was about anyway, that was about the Legions, with the undertone of a very hurt Dorn crying out against a brother that wasn't there to fight and one he very likely had assumed was judging him.

 Aetare wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Aetare wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Aetare wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
He's not dead since they're now releasing loyalist Primarchs, which means it's only a matter of time before he shows up alive.

The only Primarch we won't see come back is Curze (had his head taken off, wanted to die, no signs of a 'spirit' running around like Ferrus has) and MAYBE Sanguinius, though with the apparent Siege of Terra retcons coming up I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

Is the retcon for sure happening? Seems so bizarre after having the story poetically entrenched for so many years.

It's not people are over reacting to a vague statement that the seige of terra doesn't go quite as described in various books etc.

people of course rather then assuming there are some new details and twists assume "ohh they're retconning everything"
given a line in "The Carrion Throne" (a Custodes offers to take the inqusitor to where the Angel fell, and then takes him to the gates leading to the throne room) my over all gut feeling is Sanguinis dies BEFORE the attack on Horus' ship.

Interesting tidbit at the end there. Hopefully they will explain how things went down sooner rather than later.

yeah, it's such a minor thing that it's easy to miss, but I could see sanguinis and Olinious dying at the gate, and only then the emperor beaming up, and unleashing on Horus.

Would certainly diminish the contribution and legend of Sanguinius though, which I would not at all like to see.

depends how it's done, if Sanguinis basicly single handedly stopped Horus' final push, and was what forced Horus to make his gamble...

depends how it's done, if Sanguinis basicly single handedly stopped Horus' final push, and was what forced Horus to make his gamble...

Fair point; So long as he is either within the realm of returning, or dies in a glorious fashion.

Or Sanguinious killed Horus and then the Chaos gods infused him with their power as he was overcome with the black rage and red thirst and the emperor had to then kill him to? It was the power of the emperor who suffused the blood angels with their curse when he killed their primarch almost as punishment for turning on him?

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Dorn was also there the first time Guilliman reformed the Empire into something that did work when the two of them were both still alive and he didnt have any qualms with it then, because it was right to stay along side him and preserve the Emperor's dream.

Don't forget Guilliman took it in the neck from Fulgrim about 100 years after the end of the Heresy. Dorn didn't vanish until the first Black Crusade which was several centuries later. Dorn was one of the last loyalist Primarchs (apart from Vulcan's brief appearance in M32). If he had issues with how the IoM was structured he had quite a lot of time after Roboute was put in stasis to challenge it. The fact that he didn't back then suggests he accepted its necessity.

 Karhedron wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Dorn was also there the first time Guilliman reformed the Empire into something that did work when the two of them were both still alive and he didnt have any qualms with it then, because it was right to stay along side him and preserve the Emperor's dream.

Don't forget Guilliman took it in the neck from Fulgrim about 100 years after the end of the Heresy. Dorn didn't vanish until the first Black Crusade which was several centuries later. Dorn was one of the last loyalist Primarchs (apart from Vulcan's brief appearance in M32). If he had issues with how the IoM was structured he had quite a lot of time after Roboute was put in stasis to challenge it. The fact that he didn't back then suggests he accepted its necessity.

The Imperium was likely as close to what they Emperor envisioned during that time frame as it could be. It doesnt seem it became what it is today until after all the Primarachs had vanished.

BrianDavion wrote:

depends how it's done, if Sanguinis basicly single handedly stopped Horus' final push, and was what forced Horus to make his gamble...

If Sanguinius dies there I'm inclined to think they'll change the location of the final battle from the Vengeful Spirit to the Imperial Palace. If Horus has to make a similar gamble I think it might be that he leads a final, desperate charge before reinforcements arrive.

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Or Sanguinious killed Horus and then the Chaos gods infused him with their power as he was overcome with the black rage and red thirst and the emperor had to then kill him to? It was the power of the emperor who suffused the blood angels with their curse when he killed their primarch almost as punishment for turning on him?

Now thats one crazy theory

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

depends how it's done, if Sanguinis basicly single handedly stopped Horus' final push, and was what forced Horus to make his gamble...

If Sanguinius dies there I'm inclined to think they'll change the location of the final battle from the Vengeful Spirit to the Imperial Palace. If Horus has to make a similar gamble I think it might be that he leads a final, desperate charge before reinforcements arrive.

This could be a cool take on the narrative; Horus the aggressor to the very end, rather than the Emperor basically saying 'hold my beer' and jumping up into space. Kinda reminds me of the duel at the gates of Doru Araeba.

TheLumberJack wrote:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Or Sanguinious killed Horus and then the Chaos gods infused him with their power as he was overcome with the black rage and red thirst and the emperor had to then kill him to? It was the power of the emperor who suffused the blood angels with their curse when he killed their primarch almost as punishment for turning on him?

Now thats one crazy theory

Crazy. Crazy can be fun

Actually, I think the likelihood of Sanguinius returning from the dead is quite a bit higher than Dorn. It makes a lot of business sense for GW to give each Space Marine army access to its Primarch. The Ultramarine/vanilla Marine codex gets Guilliman, SW Russ, DA the Lion and BA Sanguinius.
Alternatively, something major is going to happen to Dante or the Sanguinor that puts him on a Primarch level.
I am willing to bet on this

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Actually, I think the likelihood of Sanguinius returning from the dead is quite a bit higher than Dorn. It makes a lot of business sense for GW to give each Space Marine army access to its Primarch. The Ultramarine/vanilla Marine codex gets Guilliman, SW Russ, DA the Lion and BA Sanguinius.
Alternatively, something major is going to happen to Dante or the Sanguinor that puts him on a Primarch level.
I am willing to bet on this

yeah thats why I think Sanguinis returning is something that should be discussed as POSSIABLE.

I could see something like Dante being infused with the essence of the Sanguinor, rebirthing sanguinis from the two of them.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Actually, I think the likelihood of Sanguinius returning from the dead is quite a bit higher than Dorn. It makes a lot of business sense for GW to give each Space Marine army access to its Primarch. The Ultramarine/vanilla Marine codex gets Guilliman, SW Russ, DA the Lion and BA Sanguinius.
Alternatively, something major is going to happen to Dante or the Sanguinor that puts him on a Primarch level.
I am willing to bet on this

Yes it makes business sense to do that, but I don't believe they will. As much as we think of GW as a boardroom filled with cigar-chomping fat cats, they have shown us in the past few years that they listen to their base. I was listening to The Imperial Truth podcast today, and ADB and John French were interviewed. They talk about the pains they go through in order to preserve the lore. Sure things are retonned, but some things are holy. For example, when ADB wrote Betrayer, he tried to put Angrons spite towards the Emperor in context for the reader. He said, had he written the early fluff, he wouldn't have had the Emperor just decide to beam Angron up during his worlds civil war. After all, why not intervene? But, that's the lore, and ADB had to respect it. That bit of history being untouchable guarantees Sanguinius's demise remains canon.

Having Sanguinius return in some sort of Oprah Winfrey "EVERYONE GETS A PRIMARCH" money grab at the expense of the story would be Heresy. We play this game because of the story. We aren't just pushing generic models around. To discard the single biggest moment in Warhammer history in order to sell one model to one small faction of players is inconceivable. We may as well worry about the Tyranids becoming productive and honored members of the Imperium of Man in order to take advantage of the allies matrix

 SolidOakie wrote:
Having Sanguinius return in some sort of Oprah Winfrey "EVERYONE GETS A PRIMARCH" money grab at the expense of the story would be Heresy.

Yes and no. It would likely create a lot of strong feelings but it would also sell models and would likely interest a lot of players. I have played BAs since 1st edition (I still run my old metal DC) and part of me would love to have Sanguinius rampaging about in 40K.

Would it cheapen his death? Probably. But it could still happen without actually retconning the events of the final duel.

The designers' original plan was to have him return by "possessing" Mephiston a la greater daemon. That was 20 years ago and whether they go down this route or a different one is anyone's guess at the moment. But the fact remains they own the story and could invent a way of resurrecting Sangiunius just like they did RG without actually retconning his death at the hands of Horus.

Huh, I'm surprisingly ok with Sanguinius coming back as a form of daemonic possession, provided he's held up like a king by the Blood Angels and everyone else is deeply, deeply suspicious. To the point of it causing rifts in the Imperium.

Caveat: There also has to be a very real chance that it's not Sanguinius, which the Blood Angels conveniently ignore.

Remember Sanguinius "fell" in the battle of terra at the ultimate gate - in Sanguinius vs Ka'Banda round II.

Then he got up again and broke the bloodthirster's back (whereas in round 1 at signus the bloodthirster broke his legs).

locarno24 wrote:
Remember Sanguinius "fell" in the battle of terra at the ultimate gate - in Sanguinius vs Ka'Banda round II.

Then he got up again and broke the bloodthirster's back (whereas in round 1 at signus the bloodthirster broke his legs).

Considering that the fluff surrounding Baal for 8th Edition hints that Ka'Banda was involved in defeating the Hive Fleet , there is a strong possibility that the old rivalry will be rekindled.

I've always thought that every primarch could return bar horus as the emp destroyed his soul in the final battle, it would take a lot of shenanigans to do it but it's possible , just for fun through in the lost primarchs to stir things up one loyal on chaos

So IIRC barring Horus the "confirmed" dead Primarchs are Ferrus, Sanguinius and Curze(and one half of Alpharius/Omegon). I think there covered with a mix of warp shenanigans, prophecy/future sight, an angel/vampire theme and "I'm Batman"

GoatboyBeta wrote:
So IIRC barring Horus the "confirmed" dead Primarchs are Ferrus, Sanguinius and Curze(and one half of Alpharius/Omegon). I think there covered with a mix of warp shenanigans, prophecy/future sight, an angel/vampire theme and "I'm Batman"

Well, it could be argued that it's Alpharius/Omegon both dead. Dorn got one, Guilliman got the other. Granted, there has always been rumor that there was really 3 of them.

 djones520 wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
So IIRC barring Horus the "confirmed" dead Primarchs are Ferrus, Sanguinius and Curze(and one half of Alpharius/Omegon). I think there covered with a mix of warp shenanigans, prophecy/future sight, an angel/vampire theme and "I'm Batman"

Well, it could be argued that it's Alpharius/Omegon both dead. Dorn got one, Guilliman got the other. Granted, there has always been rumor that there was really 3 of them.

Okay where the hell did the theory of 3 come from?

His name is Lambda Lambda Lambda and he is fabuloooooousssssss!!!

I thought Guilliman killed the 1st captain guy who they often used to be one of them from time to time. Can't remember his name but he was "very tall" even for a marine. Think it's been established that Dorn definitely killed Alpharius and Omegon is potentially still alive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
I thought Guilliman killed the 1st captain guy who they often used to be one of them from time to time. Can't remember his name but he was "very tall" even for a marine. Think it's been established that Dorn definitely killed Alpharius and Omegon is potentially still alive.

And he's watching you

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
I thought Guilliman killed the 1st captain guy who they often used to be one of them from time to time. Can't remember his name but he was "very tall" even for a marine. Think it's been established that Dorn definitely killed Alpharius and Omegon is potentially still alive.

Sheed Ranko was a particularly large and imposing Alpha Legionnaire who doubled for the Primarchs on various occasions. He was killed in the destruction of Tenebrae 9-50 while impersonating Omegon. This was fairly early in the HH and there has been no fluff to indicate that Alpharius Omegon had another body double.

That means that if Dorn and Guilliman killed one apiece then both Alpharius and Omegon are dead.

If!