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So rerolls are taken before modifiers are applied. This seems to work a bit differently than I think most of us are used to. Say a unit has BS 3+ and is shooting at a dark eldar venom, which has a flickerfield and causes the enemy to subtract 1 from the hit roll. Normally we would just say that unit needs a 4+, but that's not what the rules say. If that unit has a reroll missed hits buff, it won't get to reroll 3s. That unit still hits on a 3+, you then reroll any misses, and THEN subtract 1 from the results. The same thing will be true for any units with heavy weapons that shoot after moving. Tell me if I'm wrong but that might be a little tricky to get used to at first.

You're wrong

Yes, rerolls happen before modifiers, and I think that's going to have an impact when you have rules that say something like "re-roll 1s". But I don't think it makes much sense to say that if you have "re-roll misses" then you can't re-roll what would be a hit if not for a -1 modifier.

Is a hit or a miss clearly defined anywhere? Because surely the plain meaning has got to be that a hit is an actual hit and a miss is an actual miss. That "3" roll -- will it miss? Yes. So you can re-roll it.

I guess I'd look at it as the re-roll triggering only when the shot actually misses, and the "re-rolls come before modifiers" rule applying to situations where you're told to do both at the same time.

You're wrong.

The -1 to hit applies to any result on any dice. which means that 4 is actually a 3.

I can get on board with the idea of 'hits' and 'misses' then being rerolled, that does make sense. So I guess what constitutes a numerical 'roll', is it the actual number on the dice or the end result? So when you get to reroll 1s, but there is a -1 modifier, are you actually rerolling the dice that show up as '2'?

Edit: After reading the section on saving throws it is clear to me that a roll is the number on the dice, not the result, so I guess that answers that. Interestingly enough, the 'roll of 1 always fails' is missing from the wounding rules, so I guess you can wound on a roll of 1 with the right modifiers.

 Oaka wrote:
So rerolls are taken before modifiers are applied. This seems to work a bit differently than I think most of us are used to. Say a unit has BS 3+ and is shooting at a dark eldar venom, which has a flickerfield and causes the enemy to subtract 1 from the hit roll. Normally we would just say that unit needs a 4+, but that's not what the rules say. If that unit has a reroll missed hits buff, it won't get to reroll 3s. That unit still hits on a 3+, you then reroll any misses, and THEN subtract 1 from the results. The same thing will be true for any units with heavy weapons that shoot after moving. Tell me if I'm wrong but that might be a little tricky to get used to at first.

You are wrong.

If the rules tell us to re-roll a specific number, then they're talking about the number rolled on the actual dice, irrespective of modifiers. So an ability that allows a player to re-roll '1's means the player gets to re-roll any '1's they roll, not results of '1' after modifiers are applied.

However, if the rule tells the player they're allowed to re-roll misses (or hits) then to figure out whether a hit or miss has occurred, we must (by rule) first apply all modifiers to see if a hit (or miss) has actually occurred. Only then can we figure out which results are allowed to be re-rolled.

 Oaka wrote:
Edit: After reading the section on saving throws it is clear to me that a roll is the number on the dice, not the result, so I guess that answers that. Interestingly enough, the 'roll of 1 always fails' is missing from the wounding rules, so I guess you can wound on a roll of 1 with the right modifiers.

No it isn't. Its right under the 'to wound' chart on page 181.

Sorry for bringing this back up, but with the FAQ:

Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example,
‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites
of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or
after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?
A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll
ability is triggered before applying modifiers.
For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+)
moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst
within range of a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’
ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1).
The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.
Re-rolls are applied before modifiers. In this example a single
dice is re-rolled because of the Captain’s ability, this time
resulting in a 3.
Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. In this example there is
a -1 modifier to the hit rolls for moving and firing a Heavy
weapon. That means that the post-re-roll scores of 2, 3 and 5
are modified to 1, 2 and 4. Comparing the final results to the
model’s Ballistic Skill, only one shot hits the target.

It does imply all rerolls are before modifiers, but unfortunately does not distinguish between a rule that reroll 1s and a rule that reroll misses. Now the final sentence does conclude the action with how many hits are made, so we can assume the other attacks are misses. It may be at this point you may enact a reroll misses rule?

I'm thinking the sequence may be something like:
[roll a D6 to hit] --> [reroll numerical values] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine hits and misses] --> [reroll misses] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine final hits and misses]

 Oaka wrote:
I'm thinking the sequence may be something like:
[roll a D6 to hit] --> [reroll numerical values] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine hits and misses] --> [reroll misses] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine final hits and misses]

I still have the specific question covering this in my FAQ list, and hopefully when they release a more FAQ they'll address it.

Until then, based on their mini-FAQ you just have to play that you can only re-roll hits/misses wounds/failed wounds based on unmodified rolls, as stupid and unintuitive as that is.

the sequence point is true, but it is a moot point...

re rolls are explicitly optional, you may simple choose *not* to reroll that 2, knowing that at the +1 step that comes after it gets boosted

However you are still screwed when its a negative modifier, as the reroll isnt triggered without the failure.

same with re roll 1's, it must be a natural one, a 2-1 has already passed the rerol stage.

 easysauce wrote:
the sequence point is true, but it is a moot point...

re rolls are explicitly optional, you may simple choose *not* to reroll that 2, knowing that at the +1 step that comes after it gets boosted

However you are still screwed when its a negative modifier, as the reroll isnt triggered without the failure.

Yes, but with negative modifiers, you're now missing out on dice that should be re-rolled. So if you've got a -2 to hit on a BS4+ guy that can reroll misses, you should get get to re-roll results of 1-5, but instead you can only reroll results of 1-3.

 Oaka wrote:


I'm thinking the sequence may be something like:
[roll a D6 to hit] --> [reroll numerical values] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine hits and misses] --> [reroll misses] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine final hits and misses]

That does look good on paper, but if you look at the result of a single die roll, it should probably go more specifically like:

[roll a D6 to hit] --> [reroll numerical values] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine hits and misses] --> [reroll misses if no reroll has happened yet] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine final hits and misses]

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 yakface wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
I'm thinking the sequence may be something like:
[roll a D6 to hit] --> [reroll numerical values] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine hits and misses] --> [reroll misses] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine final hits and misses]

I still have the specific question covering this in my FAQ list, and hopefully when they release a more FAQ they'll address it.

Until then, based on their mini-FAQ you just have to play that you can only re-roll hits/misses wounds/failed wounds based on unmodified rolls, as stupid and unintuitive as that is.

but if you do it that way you're checking for a hit/miss twice. which makes the wound roll section fun. "IF an attack scores a hit" Yes I hit, but it became a miss. It's Schrodinger die roll he both hit & missed. But as I did score a hit I'll roll to wound now

I think based on the FAQ and that they don't check against the BS until after modifiers that oaka is correct and that is the RAW way to play. it's the specific > general rule. You have specific permission to reroll misses, but you won't know if you've missed til after the modifiers. And it would seem logical to only check for a hit/miss once, not twice.

There are only a few abilities that apply a negative hit modifiers and only a few abilities that allow rerolls (that isn't just rerolling 1s)

I don't think it will come up excessively often...

Tho yea, if you just barely make it... It will be a complete miss
while if you weren't even close... you have another chance

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Oaka wrote:


I'm thinking the sequence may be something like:
[roll a D6 to hit] --> [reroll numerical values] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine hits and misses] --> [reroll misses] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine final hits and misses]

That does look good on paper, but if you look at the result of a single die roll, it should probably go more specifically like:

[roll a D6 to hit] --> [reroll numerical values] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine hits and misses] --> [reroll misses if no reroll has happened yet] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine final hits and misses]

These are both wrong as you are rerolling twice in both instances. It goes:

[Roll d6 to hit] - [re-roll unmodified dice values] - [determine hits and misses] - [roll successes for wounds]

The fun part comes down to when you have an overall "re-roll misses" vs "re-roll a 1". If you need a 3+ to hit and you roll a 3 you cannot re-roll it as it is considered a successful roll while a 1 or a 2 can. Then modifiers are applied and your previously successful 3 is now a miss. The "re-roll phase" to hit has passed so you lose out. It's highly unintuitive and unwieldy.

The best way I could explain it to a friend (we've both been playing since 2nd edition) is that modifiers in this edition affect the result, not the roll. So a BS3+ model hits on a 3+, and then modifiers are applied to give you a final value of the hit roll. It's really difficult to accept if you're used to previous editions, but very easy to apply if you're open to the change. 3+ to hit with a -1 modifier was 4+ to hit, that was easy, but not how 8th edition works. If the community catches wind of this quickly then it won't be a problem, but, as Yakface pointed out in another thread, it's very awkward explaining to an opponent why he/she can't reroll his dice that result in misses if they're not on board with this new system.

OP seem to be right.
Rerolls must happen without taking modifiers into account. So if your hitroll is a success prior to modifiers you cannot reroll it as a "failed" even if modifiers will bring it down.

Since the FAQ states this is the case, firing overcharged plasmaguns when there is negative hit modifiers involved becomes really risky.
Dont overcharge during a night fight!!

BomBomHotdog wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Oaka wrote:


I'm thinking the sequence may be something like:
[roll a D6 to hit] --> [reroll numerical values] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine hits and misses] --> [reroll misses] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine final hits and misses]

That does look good on paper, but if you look at the result of a single die roll, it should probably go more specifically like:

[roll a D6 to hit] --> [reroll numerical values] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine hits and misses] --> [reroll misses if no reroll has happened yet] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine final hits and misses]

These are both wrong as you are rerolling twice in both instances. It goes:

[Roll d6 to hit] - [re-roll unmodified dice values] - [determine hits and misses] - [roll successes for wounds]

The fun part comes down to when you have an overall "re-roll misses" vs "re-roll a 1". If you need a 3+ to hit and you roll a 3 you cannot re-roll it as it is considered a successful roll while a 1 or a 2 can. Then modifiers are applied and your previously successful 3 is now a miss. The "re-roll phase" to hit has passed so you lose out. It's highly unintuitive and unwieldy.

There is no reroll phase, this isn't magicTG. We have a special rule that modifies the core rules. This special rule let's us reroll misses, which following the FAQ does not happen until after the modifiers have been applied and then the BS is finally checked. Then and only then do we know if we hit or missed. I miss, the special rule now applies and grants a reroll.

sirlynchmob wrote:

BomBomHotdog wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Oaka wrote:


I'm thinking the sequence may be something like:
[roll a D6 to hit] --> [reroll numerical values] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine hits and misses] --> [reroll misses] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine final hits and misses]

That does look good on paper, but if you look at the result of a single die roll, it should probably go more specifically like:

[roll a D6 to hit] --> [reroll numerical values] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine hits and misses] --> [reroll misses if no reroll has happened yet] --> [apply modifiers] --> [determine final hits and misses]

These are both wrong as you are rerolling twice in both instances. It goes:

[Roll d6 to hit] - [re-roll unmodified dice values] - [determine hits and misses] - [roll successes for wounds]

The fun part comes down to when you have an overall "re-roll misses" vs "re-roll a 1". If you need a 3+ to hit and you roll a 3 you cannot re-roll it as it is considered a successful roll while a 1 or a 2 can. Then modifiers are applied and your previously successful 3 is now a miss. The "re-roll phase" to hit has passed so you lose out. It's highly unintuitive and unwieldy.

There is no reroll phase, this isn't magicTG. We have a special rule that modifies the core rules. This special rule let's us reroll misses, which following the FAQ does not happen until after the modifiers have been applied and then the BS is finally checked. Then and only then do we know if we hit or missed. I miss, the special rule now applies and grants a reroll.

Its unfortunate that the FAQ uses "reroll 1s" and not "reroll misses" as an example.
It all seem very inconsistent, "reroll misses" is done after modifiers but "reroll 1s" is done before modifiers but "roll of 1s" is checked after modifiers.

 yakface wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
the sequence point is true, but it is a moot point...

re rolls are explicitly optional, you may simple choose *not* to reroll that 2, knowing that at the +1 step that comes after it gets boosted

However you are still screwed when its a negative modifier, as the reroll isnt triggered without the failure.

Yes, but with negative modifiers, you're now missing out on dice that should be re-rolled. So if you've got a -2 to hit on a BS4+ guy that can reroll misses, you should get get to re-roll results of 1-5, but instead you can only reroll results of 1-3.

RAW, it works as intended, IE yes negative modifiers do screw you.

We might disagree if that is "fair" or not, ie if there "should" be a reroll even if technically it is not allowed, but RAW is such that we are screwed when it comes to negative modifiers (this may or may not be intentional, they may FAQ it, wouldnt suprise me either way TBH) but it is unfortunately clear RAW wise.


What I have already noticed though is some people seem to be treating re rolls as mandatory and calling choosing not to reroll "cheating"

We have two handy stats written on everyones datasheet now that clears this up. the WS and BS stats.

See, you get to reroll ONLY if those fixed stats miss. Thats it. Space marine hits on a 3+. you can re-roll ones and twos.

The Modifiers are placed afterwards.