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Swarmlord moves and advances. Dro in your tyrannocite with 20 genestealers in it. Pile out so one model is within 6 of the spawnlord. Use hive commander on the genestealers (move+advance in shooting). Charge, genestealers can charge after advancing.... I think that makes ~50-70 inches range.

Here is an example of mini and max rolls, long ways 12" deployment. http://imgur.com/a/ZcVCy

Sounds fun, have I got that right? thanks.

Sure, it also works as good if not better with a trygon and the stealers using the tunnel to be 9" away and then advance then charge with the aid of the trygon as well.

Except with the trygon the unit coming out of the tunnel must be within 3" of the trygon, and within 6" of the cyte not impossible to pull this tactic but it wont be easy.

You can't move or advance on the turn that you arrive as reinforcements, so it's unclear if Hive Commander (or any of the similar abilities) would work on the arrival turn:

I believe that this refers to regular movement but does not keep a special rule from adding another move in another phase of the turn.
It does specify that it is the "movement phase" that is used up in deploying to the battlefield but that they otherwise act normally for the rest of the turn.

I would say there is nothing that keeps you from using the Swarmlords Hive commander ability to almost guarantee a first turn charge

This is the old basic vs advanced scenario again.

I think that the option to advance has already passed by the time the unit deploys. You set them up at the end of the movement phase and they aren't allowed to move or advance. I don't think I've seen any evidence that they're now allowed to do so. There are some things that might let you move again in a later phase, like psychic powers or AM orders.

First turn charges are perfectly possible (especially by Helldrakes). Plenty of units can also charge after a deep strike with various degrees of reliability.

Mandragola wrote:
I think that the option to advance has already passed by the time the unit deploys. You set them up at the end of the movement phase and they aren't allowed to move or advance. I don't think I've seen any evidence that they're now allowed to do so. There are some things that might let you move again in a later phase, like psychic powers or AM orders.

First turn charges are perfectly possible (especially by Helldrakes). Plenty of units can also charge after a deep strike with various degrees of reliability.

This is correct, because advance is declared when the unit is chosen to move, and the unit is deployed at the end of movement- they cannot move or advance as advance is an option during units normal move. However being 9" away and with a possible reroll fr CPs a first turn charge is pretty possible.

Swarmlord has an ability that allows a unit to move/advance in the shooting phase, that is what is being discussed.

Since the Swarmlord's Hive Commander rule specifies that the targeted unit can move / advance in the shooting phase as if it were the movement phase I find it difficult to see this as a permission to bypass the general rule that says you cannot move / advance in the TURN you arrive. It bypasses the general rule you can't move in the shooting phase, but I find it farfetched to claim it also bypasses the reinforcement rule. Perhaps it is the intention, but currently the rules do not support it.

So I would argue against allowing you to use it on reinforcements. It's still extremely useful for models not coming in as reinforcements though (eg Genestealers would get a turn 1 move + charge of 20-40").

It gives contradictory information as right after it says that they cannot move / advance in the turn you arrive it says that it is the "movement phase" that is used up in deploying to the battlefield but that they "otherwise act normally for the rest of the turn"
and "normally" you are allowed the Hive commander rule.

So considering that the rule gives conflicting information about this situation we can try to look at the spirit of the rule and the game.

This game certainly allows to charge from deepstriking, lots of units can do it more easily just from their base rules (deathleaper, lictors, khorne raptors with icon, etc)

Trying for an expensive combo (Swarmlord plus Trygon/Tyranocyte to slingshot a Genestealer unit) seems entirely normal in my opinion and far from game breaking.

being as a few armies have this kind of potential (ex Chaos has the spell warpspeed), there really should be a FAQ about it but until then It should just be houseruled.

DutchSage wrote:
Since the Swarmlord's Hive Commander rule specifies that the targeted unit can move / advance in the shooting phase as if it were the movement phase I find it difficult to see this as a permission to bypass the general rule that says you cannot move / advance in the TURN you arrive. It bypasses the general rule you can't move in the shooting phase, but I find it farfetched to claim it also bypasses the reinforcement rule. Perhaps it is the intention, but currently the rules do not support it.

So I would argue against allowing you to use it on reinforcements. It's still extremely useful for models not coming in as reinforcements though (eg Genestealers would get a turn 1 move + charge of 20-40").

The issue is even the core rules, before you start even glancing at a index, are full of contradictions like this. So there is precedent that the Swarmlords ability would take effect, even without express permission.

Example: Order of operations for shooting step 1: select a unit to shoot. You cannot select a unit that has advanced or is within 1" of and enemy unit. The rules for assault weapons and pistols do not give you express permission to ignore this stipulation and select the unit anyway. I.E. RAW it's impossible to use assault and pistol weapons for their intended purpose. Same goes for genestealers charging after advancing rule. You cannot actually select a unit to charge if they advanced in the movement phase.

With that foundation in the core rules you can easily trace intent to the Swarmlords ability. No. RAW it doesn't work. But again, neither do half the guns in the game.

DutchSage wrote:
Since the Swarmlord's Hive Commander rule specifies that the targeted unit can move / advance in the shooting phase as if it were the movement phase I find it difficult to see this as a permission to bypass the general rule that says you cannot move / advance in the TURN you arrive. It bypasses the general rule you can't move in the shooting phase, but I find it farfetched to claim it also bypasses the reinforcement rule. Perhaps it is the intention, but currently the rules do not support it.

So I would argue against allowing you to use it on reinforcements. It's still extremely useful for models not coming in as reinforcements though (eg Genestealers would get a turn 1 move + charge of 20-40").

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

It doesn't look like any of that? No need to be rude. There's a legitimate issue with the interaction between the Reinforcement rules and Hive Commander.

Master you're right, I'm sorry I shouldn't have been rude. My post was more of a knee jerk reaction to a lot of the misinformation I have been seeing both on 4chan and on here about people both intentionally and unintentionally spreading lies and rumors or outright falsehoods.

Many people have not read all the rules and don't have access to the actual book like I do. So I will apologize, and explain why the interpretation is incorrect.

The core rules stipulate you follow them and just like the previous edtion, supplements and datasheets will change, add, subtract or influence or even negate core rules.

In the listed example you follow the phase system listed in the core rules. Where in the movement phase, at the end of it, you bring in reinforcements/deploy/deepstrike. They still follow the core rules but some units/abilites even exempt those rules. See Deathleaper as a prime example of something breaking many many core rules.

So once you deploy your sporepod, Trygon or Tervigon (pretty much any transport like unit) you move onto the shooting phase.So far, you deployed your deepstike units and transport and have followed all of the core rules. Now we are in the shooting phase and the Swarmlord has an ability called Hive commander, which states, select one friendly hive fleet* tyranid unit within 6" of the swarmlord, that unit may now move and advance if the player desires instead of shooting, treating this action as if it were the movement phase. As long as you follow the limitations on the ability such as, must be same hive fleet, must be within 6" of the swarmlord, this new unit effectively gets a new movment phase as per written.

There are no current conflicts of rules expressed as everything follows the phase structre, is given exact timing, limitations and boons as to what this ability does. Which is sadly why I was rude earlier, as the only two reasons I can think of to challenge this ability is either A, the challenger has not read the core rules and/or the ability currently being challenged, or B, is blatantly trolling.

Don't see the issue. Reinforcement rules says you can't move this turn. The Swarmlord gives a unit the ability to move in the shooting phase. It does not allow the unit to ignore the reinforcement rules.

Gargantuan, you are stopping too early in the deployment rules.

I understand that when you just read part of the rule it could mean that the Swarmlords Hive commander ability cannot be used on a newly deployed unit.

but we cannot cherry pick sections of a rules. The whole thing must be used.

It clearly says "The entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield - but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc) for the rest of the turn"
Which is a direct permission for abilities like Hive commander which don't happen in the movement phase.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Gargantuan, you are stopping too early in the deployment rules.

I understand that when you just read part of the rule it could mean that the Swarmlords Hive commander ability cannot be used on a newly deployed unit.

but we cannot cherry pick sections of a rules. The whole thing must be used.

It clearly says "The entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield - but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc) for the rest of the turn"
Which is a direct permission for abilities like Hive commander which don't happen in the movement phase.

You are exactly correct. Methinks people are purposely being obtuse, or are attempting to hurt a tactic that they wish to not fall victim to, by trolling. I don't care if a person calls me rude, as this is what trolling/rules lawyering is, at its most blatantly disrespectful glory. RAW as well as RAI both do not exempt Hive Commander from working, as it takes place completely in the shooting phase. The reinforcements rule, specifically, discusses the movement phase.

There is still no need to be rude bro, the rule could have ben written more clearly (ex: Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the *PHASE* they arrive).

saying its an extreme fail of reasoning is too harsh as the rule is confusing and would definitely be insulting for somebody who has a different point of view than we have on the rule.

While they probably should be able to pull off a fancy tactic like that if they paid the points for it, ''but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc) for the rest of the turn" is in reference to any action other than moving. You are still lacking permission around the reinforcement's ''cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive,'' since the ability you are activating is essentially just movement.

Either way, 90% certain this will be covered in that infamous Day 1 FAQ.

I'm of the mind that it can be interpreted either way and an FAQ will be required.

I did think I'd add one tidbit that I believe is pertinent to the discussion that hasn't been mentioned yet.

The last sentence of the Hive Commander ability states:

"That unit can move (and Advance if you wish) as if it were the Movement phase instead of shooting"

(Emphasis mine)

So on the one hand, the reinforcement rules tell us the unit cannot move or advance further. On the other hand, the Hive Commander rule tells us a unit can move and Advance instead of shooting (which the reinforcement rules specifically allow).

So, which is it?

But really I don't see this tactic being as big a thing as people think.. as he can only target a unit within 6"

Also, the Tyrannocyte seems to be the only 'transport' (even though it isn't technically a transport) that can only carry a single unit.

So unless they FAQ it, there's no way to put both a Broodlord and stealer unit into a single Tyrannocyte.

The OP is correct. Classic case of basic vs advanced rules. The play testers from Frontline Gaming actually mentioned this specific example and it works fine. The Swarmlord's special rule overrides the "no more moving in the movement phase" because they are not in fact moving in the movement phase - it's in the shooting phase. The rule even says that they may act normally in the shooting phase (IE no restrictions are placed on the unit after the movement phase is over).

 luke1705 wrote:
The OP is correct. Classic case of basic vs advanced rules. The play testers from Frontline Gaming actually mentioned this specific example and it works fine. The Swarmlord's special rule overrides the "no more moving in the movement phase" because they are not in fact moving in the movement phase - it's in the shooting phase. The rule even says that they may act normally in the shooting phase (IE no restrictions are placed on the unit after the movement phase is over).

Again, playtesters don't necessarily know how the rules will be answered when FAQ'd, and Reece and company certainly have gotten plenty of things wrong during their streams which they've then gone back and reversed themselves on.

It is just unfair that so many people are assuming that because they were playtesters, they are: A) infallible and B) know for a fact how GW will rule on tricky issues when the FAQs come out, neither of which is true.

 yakface wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
The OP is correct. Classic case of basic vs advanced rules. The play testers from Frontline Gaming actually mentioned this specific example and it works fine. The Swarmlord's special rule overrides the "no more moving in the movement phase" because they are not in fact moving in the movement phase - it's in the shooting phase. The rule even says that they may act normally in the shooting phase (IE no restrictions are placed on the unit after the movement phase is over).

Again, playtesters don't necessarily know how the rules will be answered when FAQ'd, and Reece and company certainly have gotten plenty of things wrong during their streams which they've then gone back and reversed themselves on.

It is just unfair that so many people are assuming that because they were playtesters, they are: A) infallible and B) know for a fact how GW will rule on tricky issues when the FAQs come out, neither of which is true.

I had formed my opinion on the matter before I heard about their interpretation of that rule, but it seemed more pertinent to mention that they read it that way than that I read it that way.

You're completely correct that a single group of playtesters doesn't perfectly indicate how GW will FAQ something like that, but it is an indication. And in lieu of any official FAQ at all, I do tend to go by the Frontline FAQ because I like their tournament format. But that's just me.

The only reason there is any ambiguity at all is because the rule lacks the words "in the movement phase" for clarifying that they can't move.

So to assume that the restriction on moving during the turn extends into the shooting phase, you would also have to assume that that restriction extends into the assault phase, since it says "during the turn". But yet, clearly you can assault normally. Indeed, if you could not, my entire army premise would be dead

So movement in the shooting phase should not be an issue either. Normally, there is no movement in the shooting phase, so this is not addressed (except that the rule says that "you may act normally in the shooting and assault phases"). Normally, I could not move in the shooting phase at all. However, with Swarmlord, I can, unless I am otherwise restricted. And saying "you may act normally" in the shooting phase clearly indicates that I am not otherwise restricted.

Frontline Gaming or no Frontline Gaming, this is how I would be playing it without the slightest bit of remorse because to me this is clearly how it is intended to be played. Some people might be able to wave a magic rules lawyer wand and say "it says for the rest of the turn" but then you wouldn't be able to assault at all, and clearly you can do this. So I'm not buying that wand.

Unit rules >> core rules - otherwise you'd never be able to do anything with special unit rules...

GodDamUser wrote:
But really I don't see this tactic being as big a thing as people think.. as he can only target a unit within 6"

It requires a trygon and a tyranocyte - swarmy goes in the tyrano - warrior or stealers in the trygon.

 Xenomancers wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
But really I don't see this tactic being as big a thing as people think.. as he can only target a unit within 6"

It requires a trygon and a tyranocyte - swarmy goes in the tyrano - warrior or stealers in the trygon.

Not necessarily. Your unit exiting the trygon/tyrannocyte can't be closer than 9" to the enemy (plus a few inches for base widths and the width of the unit) so let's say the back of the unit is 12" away from the enemy.

There's a minimum gap of 24", but remember that swarmy can himself move and advance. Worst case scenario, that's a 10" move (1 on the advance)

So with a 10" move, you've covered 10" plus the 6" aura, meaning that unless the opponent deployed 29" away from swarmy (or 34" if you get the best advance roll), you've got your guaranteed turn 1 charge. It's actually a lot easier than you think

 luke1705 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
But really I don't see this tactic being as big a thing as people think.. as he can only target a unit within 6"

It requires a trygon and a tyranocyte - swarmy goes in the tyrano - warrior or stealers in the trygon.

Not necessarily. Your unit exiting the trygon/tyrannocyte can't be closer than 9" to the enemy (plus a few inches for base widths and the width of the unit) so let's say the back of the unit is 12" away from the enemy.

There's a minimum gap of 24", but remember that swarmy can himself move and advance. Worst case scenario, that's a 10" move (1 on the advance)

So with a 10" move, you've covered 10" plus the 6" aura, meaning that unless the opponent deployed 29" away from swarmy (or 34" if you get the best advance roll), you've got your guaranteed turn 1 charge. It's actually a lot easier than you think

If all I have to do is deploy farther back into my deployment zone (against a melle army, I'm doing this anyways) to prevent first turn assault - I'm going to do it? There is also risk of your swarmy being destroyed if you don't go first. Just take the trygon and tyrano. Trygons are freaking beast anyways - it's exactly how you want to play it to - deploy it with a synapse creature and another major threat that has to be dealt with too. Also - this gives you more flexibility to go for the targets you want - rather than go for the targets they are okay with you going for.