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Farseer_V2 wrote:

PUFNSTUF wrote:
Anyone try the hemlock yet in 8th? How did you do with its short range?

I've been playing with 2 and so far I've been very pleased. Fixed damage 2 is nice and honestly with the pivot, move, pivot they're pretty easy to keep in range.

Two of them is a huge LD-1 bubble too. There's a lot of potential LD shenanigans to play with when you can cover half a guys army at once. That plus horrify, and maybe some Dark Eldar allies and you could looking at -3 LD to multiple units a turn. There's got to be something cool to do with that.,

Farseer_V2 wrote:

PUFNSTUF wrote:
Anyone try the hemlock yet in 8th? How did you do with its short range?

I've been playing with 2 and so far I've been very pleased. Fixed damage 2 is nice and honestly with the pivot, move, pivot they're pretty easy to keep in range.

How survivable have they been with the -2 to hit with conceal up? Do they usually live the game, are ignored, or targeted immediately? Two together must be nice but a good chunk of points.

I think 1 hemlock is the sweet spot, as the second cant cast conceal.

They're pretty survivable between fly, conceal and spirit stones. also their degrading doesnt really affect them right? they auto hit anyway....

I the hemlock is on of our stronger units, together with serpents.

The question I keep coming back to is, what to put inside the serpents...

Eldar were on the shelf and didn't play them except beginning of 7th. Don't own a Wraithknight (as I think it looks too barbie'ish).

And I hear we have a new "faction".

Can someone point me in the right direction for soulburst and Ynnari rules? I am confused.

 Fenris-77 wrote:

Farseer_V2 wrote:

PUFNSTUF wrote:
Anyone try the hemlock yet in 8th? How did you do with its short range?

I've been playing with 2 and so far I've been very pleased. Fixed damage 2 is nice and honestly with the pivot, move, pivot they're pretty easy to keep in range.

Two of them is a huge LD-1 bubble too. There's a lot of potential LD shenanigans to play with when you can cover half a guys army at once. That plus horrify, and maybe some Dark Eldar allies and you could looking at -3 LD to multiple units a turn. There's got to be something cool to do with that.,

There is, the Shadowseers Hallucinagen Grenades forces the target to take a Leadership check and D3 mortal wounds if they fail.

Horrify is a pretty bad power. Morale tests almost never matter for multi-wound units, so -1 Ld is at best worth 1 mortal wound in a morale test, and I don't think there's anything else you can do where -1 Ld has a very significant effect on expected wounds.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Horrify is a pretty bad power. Morale tests almost never matter for multi-wound units, so -1 Ld is at best worth 1 mortal wound in a morale test, and I don't think there's anything else you can do where -1 Ld has a very significant effect on expected wounds.

I haven't tried it yet in any games, but even one mortal wound in a morale test is great if you can tag that unit with a Death Jester (he doesn't even need to do any damage himself). Then you can choose the model that dies. Great way to get rid of a power fist or equivalent.

 Oaka wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Horrify is a pretty bad power. Morale tests almost never matter for multi-wound units, so -1 Ld is at best worth 1 mortal wound in a morale test, and I don't think there's anything else you can do where -1 Ld has a very significant effect on expected wounds.

I haven't tried it yet in any games, but even one mortal wound in a morale test is great if you can tag that unit with a Death Jester (he doesn't even need to do any damage himself). Then you can choose the model that dies. Great way to get rid of a power fist or equivalent.

Remember, they still have to actually fail the morale test. Horrify only has a 1/6 chance of causing the morale test to fail at all, if it's in question. The basic problem for Horrify is: why wouldn't you just use Smite instead? Horrify is targetable but has much less of an impact. If you can Smite the powerfist unit and kill something then it takes its next morale test at -1 and there's an extra dead model. Anything that can kill a single model is hugely better than Horrify.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Remember, they still have to actually fail the morale test. Horrify only has a 1/6 chance of causing the morale test to fail at all, if it's in question. The basic problem for Horrify is: why wouldn't you just use Smite instead? Horrify is targetable but has much less of an impact. If you can Smite the powerfist unit and kill something then it takes its next morale test at -1 and there's an extra dead model. Anything that can kill a single model is hugely better than Horrify.

My quick thoughts on this are that Horrify can be cast 18" while warlock Smite is only 9".

PUFNSTUF wrote:

Farseer_V2 wrote:
I've been playing with 2 and so far I've been very pleased. Fixed damage 2 is nice and honestly with the pivot, move, pivot they're pretty easy to keep in range.

How survivable have they been with the -2 to hit with conceal up? Do they usually live the game, are ignored, or targeted immediately? Two together must be nice but a good chunk of points.

So far they've hung tough. My current list is 4 Serpents and 2 Hemlocks which presents a decently tough exterior to my opponent. The primary reason I run 2 is I really like the fixed damage of their scythes - 4D3 on target is nasty, especially if combined with doom. I also find I really like the spread of conceal sometimes - so if one is in position to help out some of my guardians and the other isn't I've got options, and even if one's already cast conceal, you can still cast reveal which is a useful power. The other thing I've found nice about 2 is having some extra chances to deny every now and again.

 Oaka wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

Remember, they still have to actually fail the morale test. Horrify only has a 1/6 chance of causing the morale test to fail at all, if it's in question. The basic problem for Horrify is: why wouldn't you just use Smite instead? Horrify is targetable but has much less of an impact. If you can Smite the powerfist unit and kill something then it takes its next morale test at -1 and there's an extra dead model. Anything that can kill a single model is hugely better than Horrify.

My quick thoughts on this are that Horrify can be cast 18" while warlock Smite is only 9".

Sure, and Smite also isn't targetable so maybe you want to hit something that's not the nearest unit. The point is just that the expected value of Horrify is very, very low. Warlock Smite is bad so if you have a Warlock who only knows Horrify maybe it will sometimes make sense to use Horrify, but surely you're just going to have him use Conceal/Reveal or Enhance/Drain instead, right? Why are you bringing the Warlock at all when you could bring an extra Dark Reaper or an extra Shining Spear or a couple extra Warp Spiders and be very likely to not just force the unit to take its next morale test at -1 but also to kill a model?

Again, the probability that a successful cast of Horrify actually makes the difference between the unit passing and failing its morale test is at most 1/6. It expects to kill at most 1 model, and that's if you've otherwise killed so much of the unit that it is guaranteed to fail its morale test, and in this case of course your opponent has the option to pay 2 CP to ignore both the wounds they'd ordinarily take from the morale test failing as well as the extra from Horrify. In a more typical case you probably only expect about 1/2 a wound from a successful cast of Horrify (a successful Smite expects 2.3 wounds from its direct effect alone, and of course then forces the unit to take its next morale test at an average of -2).

Leadership debuffs are a nice bonus. The Hemlock's Mindshock Pods are probably going to come in handy occasionally. The two point grenade upgrade to some DE sergeants might be an okay choice. But they're almost never worth using a psychic power for. It's striking that the Hemlock doesn't actually appear to pay much for its tacked-on ability to cast a guaranteed Horrify on every single enemy unit within 12". It's just not a powerful effect, and most of the time you would gladly trade a cast of Horrify for a Bolter.

 Fruzzle wrote:
I think 1 hemlock is the sweet spot, as the second cant cast conceal.

They're pretty survivable between fly, conceal and spirit stones. also their degrading doesnt really affect them right? they auto hit anyway....

I the hemlock is on of our stronger units, together with serpents.

The question I keep coming back to is, what to put inside the serpents...

Firedragons/banshees/ gardians. If you are Ynari - go with dragons every time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think Serpants are actually much better used as places to mount your heavy weapons. They are our most durable platforms and a 5 point upgrade (CTM) allows you to avoid the penalty for moving with heavies if you shoot the closest unit. More often than not you are going to want to shoot the closest unit anyways OR you can use your huge move to make the unit you want to shoot the closest unit to you. In any case you can just stay still to get full effect out of your heavies. I'm thinking star cannons and EML are going to be the best weapons to put on serpents.

 Fruzzle wrote:
I think 1 hemlock is the sweet spot, as the second cant cast conceal.

They're pretty survivable between fly, conceal and spirit stones. also their degrading doesnt really affect them right? they auto hit anyway....

Conceal doesn't help hemlocks. They aren't infantry or bikers.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Fruzzle wrote:
I think 1 hemlock is the sweet spot, as the second cant cast conceal.

They're pretty survivable between fly, conceal and spirit stones. also their degrading doesnt really affect them right? they auto hit anyway....

Conceal doesn't help hemlocks. They aren't infantry or bikers.

The rules specifically state it affects the psyker AND infantry and bikers.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Conceal doesn't help hemlocks. They aren't infantry or bikers.

"Conceal: Your opponent must subtract 1 from all hit rolls for ranged weapons that target the psyker or friendly Asuryani Infantry or Asuryani Biker units within 3" of the psker until your next Psychic phase."

It works on the Hemlock itself, but only infantry/biker units in the bubble.

edit: ninja'd...

Farseer_V2 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Fruzzle wrote:
I think 1 hemlock is the sweet spot, as the second cant cast conceal.

They're pretty survivable between fly, conceal and spirit stones. also their degrading doesnt really affect them right? they auto hit anyway....

Conceal doesn't help hemlocks. They aren't infantry or bikers.

The rules specifically state it affects the psyker AND infantry and bikers.

exactly this, which mean 1 hemlock can be concealed.

Also, it's a great unit to cast conceal with as it's so big.

About my what to put in serpents, I'm leaning more towards wraithguard. I understand why people want dragons as they die faster, but playing with mechdar I think I'll have limited opportunities to use the ADD from my own unit dying as there is unlikely to be a none vehicle nearby.

I keep coming back to skipping the troop slot entirely and just taking vanguard+flyer.

What do you think is a good a good second flyer; Crimson, Exarch or otherwise or some dark eldar flyer?

I assume this has been mentioned, but 3x 10 Dark Reapers in Serpents + Farseer(guide and fortune), Warlock (conceal) and Yvraine (one unit fires twice(the guided one).

It's 3 drops so will probably go first doing 40 crack missiles or 80 starswarm missiles at 48".

I think you can fit in Maugan Ra to reroll 1s and add another 8 S6 shots to the serpents 27.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I assume this has been mentioned, but 3x 10 Dark Reapers in Serpents + Farseer(guide and fortune), Warlock (conceal) and Yvraine (one unit fires twice(the guided one).

It's 3 drops so will probably go first doing 40 crack missiles or 80 starswarm missiles at 48".

I think you can fit in Maugan Ra to reroll 1s and add another 8 S6 shots to the serpents 27.

So... what detachment do you use that this is legal in?

 djones520 wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I assume this has been mentioned, but 3x 10 Dark Reapers in Serpents + Farseer(guide and fortune), Warlock (conceal) and Yvraine (one unit fires twice(the guided one).

It's 3 drops so will probably go first doing 40 crack missiles or 80 starswarm missiles at 48".

I think you can fit in Maugan Ra to reroll 1s and add another 8 S6 shots to the serpents 27.

So... what detachment do you use that this is legal in?

Heavy support for 4cp auxiliary HQ for -1cp (-2 if Ra fits)

I'm having trouble on deciding what eldar deep striking unit to take. I want at least one to be a back field harasser, so i was deciding between striking scorpions and swooping hawks. I like the fact the scorpions are melee focused, so they can keep tying up an artillery or vehicle in combat, but the hawks are cheaper and are guaranteed to do hits the turn they come in. On the flip side, their gun just looks horrible to me. I mean, a RF2 lasgun? really? Is it as bad as i'm thinking?

Boogles wrote:
I'm having trouble on deciding what eldar deep striking unit to take. I want at least one to be a back field harasser, so i was deciding between striking scorpions and swooping hawks. I like the fact the scorpions are melee focused, so they can keep tying up an artillery or vehicle in combat, but the hawks are cheaper and are guaranteed to do hits the turn they come in. On the flip side, their gun just looks horrible to me. I mean, a RF2 lasgun? really? Is it as bad as i'm thinking?

It's a lot better than you are thinking considering how cheap they are 170 points to drop 40 str 3 shots on something. If they are T3 or a small unit of t5's thats gonna hurt. The sunrifle is interesting to -1 to hit for the enemy unit if they take a wound from it. If you planned on charging them that turn with something they would be attacking back at a much reduced effect. swooping hawks have the fly rule to so they can leave combat no problem. Seem to be a good anti infantry unit that provides a lot of mobility.

So my pointy eared friends I've been trying to work on a list though I can't finalise it till we get our forgeworld book.

Farseer jetbikes spear
3 Jetbikes 3 shuricannons
3 Jetbikes 3 shuricannons
3 Shinning Spears star lance
3 Shinning Spears star lance
Hemlock
Crimson Hunter Exarch starcannons
Vampire Hunter (the dual pulsar, Phoenix missiles and scatter laser one)

I'm sitting at 1088 so I left 900 points for the vampire in previous editions it was 730 and a bit overpriced so in hoping it's still 900 or less. I'm assuming the vampire will primarily being anti very big things tho8gh some additional firepower with the missiles and scatter laser for shooting squads.

I'm not sure if ynnari or craftworld is better. The extra run helps me stay mobile and I don't have a ton of units that can soulburst 5 only unless the vampire lets me fit another bike squad in.

Assuming the vampire brings anti big thing and a little of marine equivalent killing should I be able to not get tabled and maybe have a fighting chance? I know the model count is super low as I'm taking a low and 2 flyers and even then my cheapest model is more than 30 points.

This is a 2k list I'm running in a small tournament tomorrow. So far the only games I've played has been against a Knight list, and quite frankly, I don't think Eldar have the tools to deal with 4 knights, unless you decide to do nothing but spam Fire Dragons.

Anyways, I'm hoping this is something that can deal with most armies.

Farseer
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Bright Lance
10 Banshees with Wave Serpent with BL's
3 War Walkers with SL's
5 Dark Reapers
Wraith Knight

Yeah, the Wraith Knight got a huge point bump, but I've seen what the Knights can do in CC, and the WK can replicate that easily. With a Farseer giving him Guide and Fortune, he should be a pretty devastating force still.

Or I could be utterly wrong, and I'll be getting my teeth kicked in all day tomorrow. We'll see.

 djones520 wrote:
This is a 2k list I'm running in a small tournament tomorrow. So far the only games I've played has been against a Knight list, and quite frankly, I don't think Eldar have the tools to deal with 4 knights, unless you decide to do nothing but spam Fire Dragons.

Anyways, I'm hoping this is something that can deal with most armies.

Farseer
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Bright Lance
10 Banshees with Wave Serpent with BL's
3 War Walkers with SL's
5 Dark Reapers
Wraith Knight

Yeah, the Wraith Knight got a huge point bump, but I've seen what the Knights can do in CC, and the WK can replicate that easily. With a Farseer giving him Guide and Fortune, he should be a pretty devastating force still.

Or I could be utterly wrong, and I'll be getting my teeth kicked in all day tomorrow. We'll see.

SL is a pretty bad weapon now - I would avoid it. It was already bad at dealing with units with high saves but now everyones save got +1 because of cover - and everything that uses it wants to move. Replace with star cannons and you will see much better results I think.

The WK - if you give him the suncannon will average a kill on any tank he shoots - will murder any elite infantry unit he shoots - and can still wreck face in CC with his Titan feet. He is Hugely expensive - wont do well against Las Cannon spam - but he will do well against most anything else I think.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
This is a 2k list I'm running in a small tournament tomorrow. So far the only games I've played has been against a Knight list, and quite frankly, I don't think Eldar have the tools to deal with 4 knights, unless you decide to do nothing but spam Fire Dragons.

Anyways, I'm hoping this is something that can deal with most armies.

Farseer
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Bright Lance
10 Banshees with Wave Serpent with BL's
3 War Walkers with SL's
5 Dark Reapers
Wraith Knight

Yeah, the Wraith Knight got a huge point bump, but I've seen what the Knights can do in CC, and the WK can replicate that easily. With a Farseer giving him Guide and Fortune, he should be a pretty devastating force still.

Or I could be utterly wrong, and I'll be getting my teeth kicked in all day tomorrow. We'll see.

SL is a pretty bad weapon now - I would avoid it. It was already bad at dealing with units with high saves but now everyones save got +1 because of cover - and everything that uses it wants to move. Replace with star cannons and you will see much better results I think.

The WK - if you give him the suncannon will average a kill on any tank he shoots - will murder any elite infantry unit he shoots - and can still wreck face in CC with his Titan feet. He is Hugely expensive - wont do well against Las Cannon spam - but he will do well against most anything else I think.

Not starcannons. Starcannons are more expensive and have half the shots; good AP, yes, but they're paying a lot of points for fixed 3 damage in an edition where the infantry swarm is coming back in force.

But if you replace all your scatter lasers with Shuriken cannons you'll see improvement against pretty much everything and you'll be spending three fewer points per gun to get there.

(Personally I'm feeling quite good about my decision to magnetize the guns on my jetbikes.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
This is a 2k list I'm running in a small tournament tomorrow. So far the only games I've played has been against a Knight list, and quite frankly, I don't think Eldar have the tools to deal with 4 knights, unless you decide to do nothing but spam Fire Dragons.

Anyways, I'm hoping this is something that can deal with most armies.

Farseer
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Bright Lance
10 Banshees with Wave Serpent with BL's
3 War Walkers with SL's
5 Dark Reapers
Wraith Knight

Yeah, the Wraith Knight got a huge point bump, but I've seen what the Knights can do in CC, and the WK can replicate that easily. With a Farseer giving him Guide and Fortune, he should be a pretty devastating force still.

Or I could be utterly wrong, and I'll be getting my teeth kicked in all day tomorrow. We'll see.

SL is a pretty bad weapon now - I would avoid it. It was already bad at dealing with units with high saves but now everyones save got +1 because of cover - and everything that uses it wants to move. Replace with star cannons and you will see much better results I think.

The WK - if you give him the suncannon will average a kill on any tank he shoots - will murder any elite infantry unit he shoots - and can still wreck face in CC with his Titan feet. He is Hugely expensive - wont do well against Las Cannon spam - but he will do well against most anything else I think.

Not starcannons. Starcannons are more expensive and have half the shots; good AP, yes, but they're paying a lot of points for fixed 3 damage in an edition where the infantry swarm is coming back in force.

But if you replace all your scatter lasers with Shuriken cannons you'll see improvement against pretty much everything and you'll be spending three fewer points per gun to get there.

(Personally I'm feeling quite good about my decision to magnetize the guns on my jetbikes.)

Thats a good point about the jetbikes and cost of the SC - however star cannons are also great at killing infantry too. The -3 ap strips away cover and a 5+ save entirely. It will average more damage vs anything compared to a SC except things out in the open with a 5+ save or less. That's not even the weapons job - it's ment for heavy infantry and light vehicals and the SC falls flat on it's face there. Not to say the SC is useless - it's assault so its the best option for jetbikes (I didnt even glue mine - they just pop right in). There will be other situations where a SC is a better choice than a SC too - in places like warwalkers though where you are buying a heavy weapons platform - I think you need to put real heavy weapons there and not light infantry killing weapons you can get anywhere else in an eldar list - that's all I'm saying.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
This is a 2k list I'm running in a small tournament tomorrow. So far the only games I've played has been against a Knight list, and quite frankly, I don't think Eldar have the tools to deal with 4 knights, unless you decide to do nothing but spam Fire Dragons.

Anyways, I'm hoping this is something that can deal with most armies.

Farseer
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Bright Lance
10 Banshees with Wave Serpent with BL's
3 War Walkers with SL's
5 Dark Reapers
Wraith Knight

Yeah, the Wraith Knight got a huge point bump, but I've seen what the Knights can do in CC, and the WK can replicate that easily. With a Farseer giving him Guide and Fortune, he should be a pretty devastating force still.

Or I could be utterly wrong, and I'll be getting my teeth kicked in all day tomorrow. We'll see.

SL is a pretty bad weapon now - I would avoid it. It was already bad at dealing with units with high saves but now everyones save got +1 because of cover - and everything that uses it wants to move. Replace with star cannons and you will see much better results I think.

The WK - if you give him the suncannon will average a kill on any tank he shoots - will murder any elite infantry unit he shoots - and can still wreck face in CC with his Titan feet. He is Hugely expensive - wont do well against Las Cannon spam - but he will do well against most anything else I think.

Not starcannons. Starcannons are more expensive and have half the shots; good AP, yes, but they're paying a lot of points for fixed 3 damage in an edition where the infantry swarm is coming back in force.

But if you replace all your scatter lasers with Shuriken cannons you'll see improvement against pretty much everything and you'll be spending three fewer points per gun to get there.

(Personally I'm feeling quite good about my decision to magnetize the guns on my jetbikes.)

Thats a good point about the jetbikes and cost of the SC - however star cannons are also great at killing infantry too. The -3 ap strips away cover and a 5+ save entirely. It will average more damage vs anything compared to a SC except things out in the open with a 5+ save or less. That's not even the weapons job - it's ment for heavy infantry and light vehicals and the SC falls flat on it's face there. Not to say the SC is useless - it's assault so its the best option for jetbikes (I didnt even glue mine - they just pop right in). There will be other situations where a SC is a better choice than a SC too - in places like warwalkers though where you are buying a heavy weapons platform - I think you need to put real heavy weapons there and not light infantry killing weapons you can get anywhere else in an eldar list - that's all I'm saying.

Yeah, but the extra 18pts/gun is putting me off recommending just loading everything up with starcannons, and they're still Heavy. When we're talking a tank tank with the option for a CTM who can flit about in best-of-both-worlds mobile-shooty-zone (or Wraithknights who just don't care) that's one thing, but War Walkers and Vypers who can't and aren't really tough enough to be trying to kit out all the way, or Wrathlords that really want to be advancing, or Guardians who are sacrificing huge amounts of shuriken-catapult fire by trying to sit back and not shoot, are another.

Of course all this goes out the window if you're playing PL. Starcannons for everyone there.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
This is a 2k list I'm running in a small tournament tomorrow. So far the only games I've played has been against a Knight list, and quite frankly, I don't think Eldar have the tools to deal with 4 knights, unless you decide to do nothing but spam Fire Dragons.

Anyways, I'm hoping this is something that can deal with most armies.

Farseer
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Bright Lance
10 Banshees with Wave Serpent with BL's
3 War Walkers with SL's
5 Dark Reapers
Wraith Knight

Yeah, the Wraith Knight got a huge point bump, but I've seen what the Knights can do in CC, and the WK can replicate that easily. With a Farseer giving him Guide and Fortune, he should be a pretty devastating force still.

Or I could be utterly wrong, and I'll be getting my teeth kicked in all day tomorrow. We'll see.

SL is a pretty bad weapon now - I would avoid it. It was already bad at dealing with units with high saves but now everyones save got +1 because of cover - and everything that uses it wants to move. Replace with star cannons and you will see much better results I think.

The WK - if you give him the suncannon will average a kill on any tank he shoots - will murder any elite infantry unit he shoots - and can still wreck face in CC with his Titan feet. He is Hugely expensive - wont do well against Las Cannon spam - but he will do well against most anything else I think.

Not starcannons. Starcannons are more expensive and have half the shots; good AP, yes, but they're paying a lot of points for fixed 3 damage in an edition where the infantry swarm is coming back in force.

But if you replace all your scatter lasers with Shuriken cannons you'll see improvement against pretty much everything and you'll be spending three fewer points per gun to get there.

(Personally I'm feeling quite good about my decision to magnetize the guns on my jetbikes.)

Thats a good point about the jetbikes and cost of the SC - however star cannons are also great at killing infantry too. The -3 ap strips away cover and a 5+ save entirely. It will average more damage vs anything compared to a SC except things out in the open with a 5+ save or less. That's not even the weapons job - it's ment for heavy infantry and light vehicals and the SC falls flat on it's face there. Not to say the SC is useless - it's assault so its the best option for jetbikes (I didnt even glue mine - they just pop right in). There will be other situations where a SC is a better choice than a SC too - in places like warwalkers though where you are buying a heavy weapons platform - I think you need to put real heavy weapons there and not light infantry killing weapons you can get anywhere else in an eldar list - that's all I'm saying.

Yeah, but the extra 18pts/gun is putting me off recommending just loading everything up with starcannons, and they're still Heavy. When we're talking a tank tank with the option for a CTM who can flit about in best-of-both-worlds mobile-shooty-zone (or Wraithknights who just don't care) that's one thing, but War Walkers and Vypers who can't and aren't really tough enough to be trying to kit out all the way, or Wrathlords that really want to be advancing, or Guardians who are sacrificing huge amounts of shuriken-catapult fire by trying to sit back and not shoot, are another.

Of course all this goes out the window if you're playing PL. Starcannons for everyone there.

Yeah thats the biggest let down for me on serpents. vecotored engines is an awesome upgrade and it is only useful with a full SC loadout. End result is a tank that doesn't do a lot of damage that is hard to kill. It's not the eldar way.

The Wave Serpent hull is big enough so that even if the opponent gets into melee combat vs your wave serpent, it can keep all enemy models farther than 3" away from objectives.

The wave serpent is tough enough to sustain though fire while camping on those objectives

The wave serpent is also fast enough to rush for last minute line-breaker victory points.

Playing the objective and winning is the eldar way.

Reece from FLG was raving about Wraith construct armies, going for the old Iyanden style. What do you guys think about that?