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Hi. Trying to find how overpriced (or not?) are Striking Scorpions, I did some maths for the Ynnari thread:

I run some numbers of Striking Scorpions and a directly comparable unit, Tyranid Raveners.
Against a toughness 3, 5+ save in cover 6 Raveners (138 points) do 7,7 wounds on average.
Against the same unit a 5 SS unit (Exarch with Biting blade 107 points, with Chainsabres 111 points) do 7,71/8,25 wounds on average (pistols+mandiblasters+CC).

Not bad at all for a significantly cheaper unit! I know that may be an ideal scenario, but maybe it informs about the kind of target SS should pick.

To add some value to the half-assed maths, I also run the average resilience against 10 Marines rapid-firing bolters (130 points, approximately comparable).

SS (out of cover) would suffer 3 casualties, and probably pass their morale test (or suffer another casualty tops).
Raveners would suffer around 4.4 wounds (a full dead Ravener plus a wounded one), and would have a 1/3 chance of losing at least 1 more model due to morale.

I looks like Raveners clearly win at resilience, but that was to be expected at least by the 31/27 difference in points.

You could say: hey Daniel, why would I spend around 110 points for killing a GEQ squad in cover when I could do it with shooting? I guess a backfield, entrenched squad could be a problem to target .
Let's see how a 3 man Dark reaper squad with Tempest launcher (115 points) would do. To cut some slack for the underdog, let's assume the target is out of sight and only the Tempest launcher can fire. An average of 2.59 wounds. A Shadow Weaver would perform worse.

My point? SS are overpriced, but they are comparable to similar units, and have a role to play in which they are moderately efficient.

Requizen wrote:
Reece from FLG was raving about Wraith construct armies, going for the old Iyanden style. What do you guys think about that?

I played a quick 750pt list last night

Spiritseer
5x Wraithguard w/ D Scythes
2x Wraithlord w/ 2x Shuriken Cannons, 2x Shuriken Catapults, Sword
1x Wraithlord w/ 2x Starcannons, 2x Shuriken Catapults, Sword

First impressions are very good. Wraithguard w/ D Scythes are amazing with the amount of times they get to shoot, and the Wraithbone fists aren't too bad in combat either vs the right opponent.
Wraithlords also excellent, good amount of shooting and sword is good versus the right opponent.
Will be definitely be taking a Wraith core for my army with some mobility added on. Wave Serpents ? Jet bikes ?

After shelving my Iyanden in 7th, it felt very good to get them back on the table
.

Hi all,

Has anybody gotten the eldar forgeworld Index? If so could you comment on pricecost and units?

I have the space marine one and some things are game breaking with the amount of shots and damage they do, but since from what we know most eldar things are low rate of fire, I'm actually worries.

Could you please comment?

So I played that list today. I feel it went very well. Some notes.

I played against IG allied with Blood Angels. Knights. Tau.

Eldar are just fast. They will be across the table in your face on turn 2 at the latest.

They die fast. I got tabled by the Knights (which has happened 3 for 3 games I've played against them), and the Tau (that was my own fault, huge tactical mistep turn 1).

Scatter Lasers are still the go to heavy weapon of choice, IMO. Weight of numbers will get the job done, for the price you're paying.

Wraithknight, expensive yes, but still very effective, when complimented by things like Farseers. Today he put 2 Knights down before he went down. In game 1 he took out a ton of IG, and didn't get a scratch in return. I feel he's pointed out to where he should be now. It just sucks that Knights are cheaper, so it seems like they are over priced. Only time he didn't perform was when I moved him in turn one, and gave the Tau player an opening to drop 9 crisis suits right behind him, and gunned him down.

Our army is not an "auto-win" anymore, but from what I saw today, we're still a powerful foe to face, if we keep our head on straight.

Scatter laser is worse than the shuriken cannon now. The extra shot is mitigated by the -1 to hit when moving, and even then the numbers are pretty similar with the extra ap on 6s balancing out the one less shot. When you factor in doom as well the rending of the shuriken cannon makes them decent at doing some damage to vehicles as well, as most wounds are almost guaranteed to beat armour.
And that's before even factoring in the fact that cannons allow you to advance and shoot at full effect.

 djones520 wrote:
So I played that list today. I feel it went very well. Some notes.

I played against IG allied with Blood Angels. Knights. Tau.

Eldar are just fast. They will be across the table in your face on turn 2 at the latest.

They die fast. I got tabled by the Knights (which has happened 3 for 3 games I've played against them), and the Tau (that was my own fault, huge tactical mistep turn 1).

Scatter Lasers are still the go to heavy weapon of choice, IMO. Weight of numbers will get the job done, for the price you're paying.

Wraithknight, expensive yes, but still very effective, when complimented by things like Farseers. Today he put 2 Knights down before he went down. In game 1 he took out a ton of IG, and didn't get a scratch in return. I feel he's pointed out to where he should be now. It just sucks that Knights are cheaper, so it seems like they are over priced. Only time he didn't perform was when I moved him in turn one, and gave the Tau player an opening to drop 9 crisis suits right behind him, and gunned him down.

Our army is not an "auto-win" anymore, but from what I saw today, we're still a powerful foe to face, if we keep our head on straight.

I'm intrigued that Scatter Lasers worked out so well for you on Wave Serpents. I was under the impression Twin Shuriken Cannons would be superior due to being able to fire after advancing at -1 or moving with no penalty. You're only losing two shots at 12" of range, which given the Wave Serpent's mobility and extra cannon isn't much.

What exactly is difficult about dealing with Knights now? do the standard Eldar counters (Bright Lances, suicide Fire Dragon squads) not work well now?

Crystal Targetting Matrix.

Knights are hard to put down. 24 wounds, with that 5+ invuln. The guy in my group runs all 4 with Battle Cannons. 2d6 shots that does d3 damage. 4 units to deploy, he almost always goes first (I siezed on him today, and that's why I managed to put 2 knights down, first time I dropped 1). He tables all three opponents he played today, and I gave him the hardest fight.

They are incredibly survivable, and they put out massive fire power, and will get the alpha strike. It's a tough combo. I'm expecting him to go 6 for 6 at ATC this year.

Even with crystal targeting matrix for the scatter laser, shuriken cannon is still better when you crunch the numbers. Scatter laser has the advantage against t3 +5 save and that's about it. Against marine equivalent it's pretty similar and then at t7 3+ save shuriken cannon takes the lead.

And that's without the -1 to hit. For guardians, wraithlord, jetbikes etc that can't take the upgrade it is a no brainer.

In fact probably the best place to run scat lasers is where you have done it. Twin linked on serpents. Ctm tax only has to be paid once to advantage the equivalent of 2 scatter lasers, and with the horde force being powerful the extra .5 wounds per shot against t3 5+ save is a welcome boost.

I haven't played any games yet, but will hopefully in a day or two. I'm looking forward to testing out a few things, unfortunately, for now I'll have to be fairly mech, but I want to try footdar for this edition.

What are people running HQ wise at 2k? I'm looking at 2 detachments,a brigade and a spearhead, for 4CP, but that means 3 hq is required, as I said, no games yet, but I'm theory crafting a bit.

At first I thought the Autarch looked pretty weak, but he does let everyone (at first I thought only aspect warriors) re-roll 1's to hit. I'm thinking of putting him near some guardian blobs, (and aggressively going for objectives) thinking the more dice I roll, the more his buff is useful. Might hover some war walkers kitted with Shuriken cannons, or star cannons with them too. However I'll also run Warp Spiders too, which could outflank with some war walkers or vypers, keep the Autarch in the middle and again, thats a lot of re-rolls.

I'd like to combine this with a Farseer, for Doom of coarse, 24" range is decent, and with our speed, we should be also to, as we always have, put down the biggest toughest unit on the board each turn. Farseers seem like a good safe choice, nothing has really changed. They are kinda tougher, provided you can keep a meatsheild around.

Then I'm thinking of running a Avatar, just as a deterrent, he seems pretty good in combat, and should be able to finish off units, or take on other big scary things. His re-roll charge thing seems pretty useless and 250pts is a lot for a counter assault unit. Anyone else plan on running him?

Overall, I'd say it too early to see, everyone is still trying to figure out themselves and everyother army. We look soild, but not OP like we were before, hopefully we aren't forced to go mech. Losing MSM is a huge loss though, thats what I feel will be the hardest change to take on, we are no longer safe from return fire. Add in the easy Alpha strike and high fire power of everything, and we could die really fast.

I'll write more later, as i digest the book and rules.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Even with crystal targeting matrix for the scatter laser, shuriken cannon is still better when you crunch the numbers. Scatter laser has the advantage against t3 +5 save and that's about it. Against marine equivalent it's pretty similar and then at t7 3+ save shuriken cannon takes the lead.

And that's without the -1 to hit. For guardians, wraithlord, jetbikes etc that can't take the upgrade it is a no brainer.

In fact probably the best place to run scat lasers is where you have done it. Twin linked on serpents. Ctm tax only has to be paid once to advantage the equivalent of 2 scatter lasers, and with the horde force being powerful the extra .5 wounds per shot against t3 5+ save is a welcome boost.

Good point about the Twin Scatter Lasers on a Wave Serpent. 16 inches of movement base is already very fast by vehicle standards, and if you swap Vectored Engines for Crystal Targeting Matrix while keeping the underslung cannon and Spirit Stones a Wave Serpent with Twin Scatter Lasers is only 1 point more than with the default turret.

Does anybody have ideas about what the best loadouts for War Walkers are? They still have battle focus, but their base movement is now 10 inches. 96 points gets you the old standby loadout of Scatter Laser+Bright Lance, but does anybody have other ideas as to what would be effective with them?

I'd pick either all-shuriken cannons or all-lances.

Ok, keeping with my "Striking Scorpions are awesome!" monologue

Assuming I was dead-set on fielding 10 of them, what do you think would be better: 2 units of 5 or one unit of 10? I will field Karandras, for the record.

3 for 3 at this point using lots of flyers, Guardians in Serpents, and the Yncarne and a Farseer. So far the Yncarne hasn't done a whole lot but the rest of the list is clearly very strong.

Game against Space Marines with some primaris, some bikers, some centurions, a predator, and a flyer:
My flyers blew up his centurions and attack bikes turn 1, bringing in the Yncarne in the middle of the rest of his army, while Serpents and Guardians killed a bunch of primaris and some scouts. The Serpents charged a few things to lock them down. Opponent conceded.

Game against Tyranids with 2 flyrants, Exocrine, Toxivore, Trygon Prime, Mawloc, a big shooty termagant horde, and a big genestealers unit with the Broodlord:
I played this very poorly but for this game my three flyers were all Hemlocks and they were great. They started blowing up his backline turn 1. He deep struck the Trygon and the Mawloc and I didn't have the firepower available to do something about them, though my Guardians did wipe the termagants, so they were able to charge and do bad things to a Serpent and a Guardian squad, and would continue to kill Guardians and damage Serpents in CC for a few turns. The flyrants killed a Hemlock, but this summoned the Yncarne who pasted one of the flyrants and almost killed the other before going down (I could and should have teleported him away when I wiped out a gaunt squad elsewhere). Guardians and Serpents shredded the genestealers. I was set to table him pretty quickly after this but he got a great roll and blew up a second Hemlock. We were very close on VPs when I tabled him in turn 6.

Game against Guard with 3 Russes, 2 bane wolves, 2 taurox primes with autocannons, and 80 Stormtroopers:
Hemlocks and Serpents were able to wipe out 2 Russes on turn 1. He misplayed and dropped about 50 Stormtroopers all around the Serpents, which are normally very durable and also immune to overcharged plasma damage, and while he brought two of them down to ~5 wounds he didn't kill one. Guardians popped out and along with the Serpents killed about half of the Stormtroopers, with the Serpents ready to charge and lock down a bunch of stuff. Opponent conceded.

So the Tyranid game was easily the hardest fight. Hemlock damage output goes way down when Smite can be denied, and Serpents start dying pretty quickly to d6 damage melee attacks. I could have played this a lot better, though -- the priority needed to be on making sure that nothing could kill the Hemlocks so that I can use them as long as possible for cleaning up all the monsters. The Yncarne needed to be better-protected too.

I also was paying too much attention to objectives in the Tyranid game -- this is why the Hemlocks didn't turn around to help deal with the Mawloc and Trygon -- when really I should have just been ignoring them and trying to table my opponent.

Assuming I was dead-set on fielding 10 of them, what do you think would be better: 2 units of 5 or one unit of 10? I will field Karandras, for the record.

2 by 5 means 1 more unit to deply, thus lower chances to get first turn. But it also doubles charge chance, gives extra wound from exarch, extra special weapon and extra Starburst grenade. I think it really comes down to the way you're rolling - trying to grab first turn or getting more soulbursts (if you're ynnari).

I also was paying too much attention to objectives in the Tyranid game -- this is why the Hemlocks didn't turn around to help deal with the Mawloc and Trygon -- when really I should have just been ignoring them and trying to table my opponent.

Did 3 large flyer bases help to screw up nyd's deploy and movement?

With all the melee, drop and horde armies popping up I was thinking Air Wing might be best supplement for eldar now, since our planes are pretty good.

What was your list dionysodorus?

I have been impressed with guardians so far. Especially when backed by farseers and warlocks. And the hemlock is a beast

 Shadenuat wrote:

Did 3 large flyer bases help to screw up nyd's deploy and movement?

With all the melee, drop and horde armies popping up I was thinking Air Wing might be best supplement for eldar now, since our planes are pretty good.

The flyers would have kept me safe from a turn 1 deep strike if he'd seized, but I pretty much had to leave a flank open after my first turn if I wanted to move up the board at all. The Mawloc gets to appear within like 1" of stuff anyway and the Trygon was bringing a bunch of shooty termagants in behind me to attack a Serpent. If I'd been running Crimson Hunters they would have been more useful for blocking deep strikers, but the Hemlocks have to play aggressively. Later, though, the Hemlocks were great for blocking movement and charge routes for his genestealers and Broodlord.

Wyldcarde wrote:
What was your list dionysodorus?

I have been impressed with guardians so far. Especially when backed by farseers and warlocks. And the hemlock is a beast

The current iteration is basically:
Yncarne
Farseer
4x 10-man Guardians in Shuriken Cannon Serpents
3x Hemlocks
and a minimum Razorwing Flocks unit that I'm playing around with for objectives, deep strike denial, and summoning the Yncarne. It didn't actually do much in the game against Guard but if he'd rolled better I would have brought in the Yncarne and smashed a couple more of his tanks on my turn 2.

Played a 2000 point Footdar game yesterday.

Farseer
Avatar
Warlock
3 x blobs of 13 guards with Aeldari Missile Launcher platforms
3 x Wave serpents with TL Aeldari Missile Launcher, Targeting Crystal, and Shuriken Cannon
5 x Dark Reapers
Wraithknight with a sword(IG had an IK so this was a planned duel)

Was playing agains Astra Militarum with lots of bodies on the floor.

The warlock kept throwing Conceal while my blob walked across the table. The Reapers were behind camping an objective.

I was very happy with the Aeldari Missile launchers as they did a ton of damage. Also, with command points you can try to avert getting a 1 on one die when seeing how many shots you get out of the missile launcher.

The -1 AP on the missile launcher is what gives the launcher some punch and I think it should not be underestimated. It meant that a lot of cover disappeared for the IG guys.

-1 to hit is going to be the gak in this edition. Also played a Venom spam list yesterday, and it is a huge change to force your opponents to get a higher roll. Stuff just survives and survives.

The Guardians deleted units when they got into range and weathered a surprising amount of shots from IG. The WK became a distraction carnifex and died at the end of Turn 2 after it had eaten the firing of 1500 points worth of IG every turn and then killed a huge blob of conscripts that were screening the IG army.

Was disappointed with the Dark Reapers as my rolls were gak and they really didn't get their points back. The gun is crazy expensive, and is super hard to get your points back on horde armies. Against MEQ They are going to rule though.

The MVP was the warlock with Conceal and the avatar giving fearless. The Farseer was less impressive, but did give me Doom that made a difference in few places.

The heavy workers were the Wave Serpents that resisted a ton of firing and really didn't start to go down until the IK started taking them seriously. That is something I could have done better as I should have used the missile launcher range and just deployed better or made a smarter initial first turn move with them.

I think it is going to be better to kill a few models in every unit and force a morale test instead of focus firing a single squad down. One game of Craftworld vs. IG I focused fire and it hurt. When I started spreading fire when I could I could perhaps force a leadership test here and there that maybe netted me an extra body gone from the opponent.

reapers are a funny unit as they seem obviously good offensively but with the changes to ap and cover they just die fast. At least in old editions their 3+ armour stuck around against small arms fire and they could have a 5+ cover save or better if it didn't. Now any form of heavy infantry weapon will melt them in a salvo. I guess range is their friend but with fliers going to be a lot more prevelant and deep striking being a lot more accurate and consistent I don't see them getting too many chances to shoot. Which is a shame because hitting on 3s all the time with heavy weapons is really good.
Large units in wave serpents will be scary but expensive.

Wyldcarde wrote:
reapers are a funny unit as they seem obviously good offensively but with the changes to ap and cover they just die fast. At least in old editions their 3+ armour stuck around against small arms fire and they could have a 5+ cover save or better if it didn't. Now any form of heavy infantry weapon will melt them in a salvo. I guess range is their friend but with fliers going to be a lot more prevelant and deep striking being a lot more accurate and consistent I don't see them getting too many chances to shoot. Which is a shame because hitting on 3s all the time with heavy weapons is really good.
Large units in wave serpents will be scary but expensive.

There are ways to protect them though. If you run them with the TL, then you can keep them out of sight and still fire, you can keep a warlock nearby with conceal, you can put them in a Serpent to protect them from deep strikers and alpha strikes (you can fit 4 min squads of Reapers in 1 Serpent). If you want to protect them form deep strikers then position your units to create a big no-zone for them around the Reapers. And if you are worried about heavy weapons, then bring other stuff they might want to target with those weapons. Like the serpent, or our flyers, or wraith units, or the avatar, etc.

To protext against deep strikes it's good to remember that no one can deep strike within 9 inches of an enemy unit. This means that if you have the bodies you can easily create a deep strike protection bubble just be spacing out your models properly.

Wyldcarde wrote:
reapers are a funny unit as they seem obviously good offensively but with the changes to ap and cover they just die fast. At least in old editions their 3+ armour stuck around against small arms fire and they could have a 5+ cover save or better if it didn't. Now any form of heavy infantry weapon will melt them in a salvo. I guess range is their friend but with fliers going to be a lot more prevelant and deep striking being a lot more accurate and consistent I don't see them getting too many chances to shoot. Which is a shame because hitting on 3s all the time with heavy weapons is really good.
Large units in wave serpents will be scary but expensive.

You can't protect everything for the whole game. Your guys will die.

stupid question, probably already asked and answered, but does the Aeldari keyword allow you to make an army using units from any of the Eldar lists? I know the Ynnari can basically do that anyway, but since you can run any Imperial units together, can you do the same with the pointy ears?

Yes you can as they are all aeldari

so had my first game with mixed guard, marines and elder forces.

Marines took a beating but they still were around.

The BaneBlade and the Imperial Bastion were TOUGH....but in turn 3 we took 19 wounds off of the SuperHeavy. We quit after that but we almost had it.

Marine Dreads are quality.
Not overly impressed with Jump Pack Marines. We got lucky with deep strike + charging ....very lucky and still did not get invested points back.

The Eldar:
The Avatar waded thru everything but, They just ignored it as it never killed enough to be a threat or pay its points back.

The Wraith lord took a lot but I'm not impressed and will not field one again.

The WarWalkers were quality. Not game moving, but solid.
The Wave Serpent was a real tough cookie and still going....I will field 3 or 4 of them in the future.

WraithCannons RULE. Absolutely demolished a leman russ in 1 round even with bad rolls, and from then on they absorbed the brunt of the enemies fire!!!! Will always take them.
1 storm guardian with fusion gun finished a scout sentinel. Not bad...so Fire Dragons and Storms' with fusion may have some use.

The Dark Reapers were my only answer to the Vindicare. They were one of the best units. CrackShot is junk though.

Banshees....got shot to death in 1 round after the enemy fell back.

Will Not field Striking Scorpions....They could not take down 1 squad of guardsmen 1v1. Missed the charge...overwatch etc...not good rolls and were made mince.

So bad: Wraithlord, Scorpions

Not sure: Dire Avengers, Banshees, Avatar

OK: Farseer, WarWalkers, storm guardians

Good: Wave Serpents, Reapers, Warlock

Great: WraithGuard

hope my 1 time out gives some insights.

Nice rundown, thanks for the summary.

It's interesting you mentioned SM dreads as a standout but wraithlords falling flat. Why the big difference considering similar stats and roles? How did you gear your lord?

The Marine player had 2 dreads and it took 2 turns to kill one with a several tanks + HWS.

The Lord was an old model so 1 bright lance + cats x2
It got hit by 2 basilisks and stuff. Even with Fortune it was dead after 1 full turn. But it did take a lot of stuff to kill it. and It was out of LOS for most of the stuff that hit it.

The Marine player could have used his techmarine to heal the dread too. I'm not sure if the Eldar has anything that could do that. Plus the degrading stats would have hurt, but it was dead prior to having to go thru that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess I should start using terms like Rounds and Turns as they apply to 8th edition now

 admironheart wrote:

The Eldar:
The Avatar waded thru everything but, They just ignored it as it never killed enough to be a threat or pay its points back.

The WarWalkers were quality. Not game moving, but solid.
The Wave Serpent was a real tough cookie and still going....I will field 3 or 4 of them in the future.

Will Not field Striking Scorpions....They could not take down 1 squad of guardsmen 1v1. Missed the charge...overwatch etc...not good rolls and were made mince.

I'll be interested in seeing how the Avatar does in future games, thinking of running one.

What did ya have on the warwalkers and what did ya target? I'm thinking of running a few.

Sucks about the Scorps, i can't say i'm surprised, you fought out of cover I presume? They might eb decentign when fighting against units in cover. What did ya have in the Exarch?

Thanks for the report mate.

Dionysodorus wrote:

I have been impressed with guardians so far. Especially when backed by farseers and warlocks. And the hemlock is a beast
The current iteration is basically:
Yncarne
Farseer
4x 10-man Guardians in Shuriken Cannon Serpents
3x Hemlocks
and a minimum Razorwing Flocks unit that I'm playing around with for objectives, deep strike denial, and summoning the Yncarne. It didn't actually do much in the game against Guard but if he'd rolled better I would have brought in the Yncarne and smashed a couple more of his tanks on my turn 2.

Are you playing as Ynnari? Or CWE? Also what do you do with the farseer? Is it in a serpent? Or just deployed on foot?

Bartali wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Reece from FLG was raving about Wraith construct armies, going for the old Iyanden style. What do you guys think about that?

I played a quick 750pt list last night

Spiritseer
5x Wraithguard w/ D Scythes
2x Wraithlord w/ 2x Shuriken Cannons, 2x Shuriken Catapults, Sword
1x Wraithlord w/ 2x Starcannons, 2x Shuriken Catapults, Sword

First impressions are very good. Wraithguard w/ D Scythes are amazing with the amount of times they get to shoot, and the Wraithbone fists aren't too bad in combat either vs the right opponent.
Wraithlords also excellent, good amount of shooting and sword is good versus the right opponent.
Will be definitely be taking a Wraith core for my army with some mobility added on. Wave Serpents ? Jet bikes ?

After shelving my Iyanden in 7th, it felt very good to get them back on the table
.

At five hundred points I only got blades and one lord with guardians and a seer.
They were very underwhelming against necrons and Nids.

I don't know if Wraithblades are worth using ?

Wraithguard seem so good with D Scythes, and they still get a punch at S5 AP-1 D1d3