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2017/06/20 21:41:32
Subject: Re:Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
On my first pass through the index I thought "43ppm! Forget that!". However, I'm writing a full Aspect Warrior list now (probably a bad idea) and have been considering what these guys can do...
Try and revisit this thought once you've faced something like Exocrines, Sicarans, or anything else with spam guns that do 2 wounds. I suspect you'll change your tune.
Maybe I should just take indestructible units instead? Any unit you can mention can easily be blown off the board in one turn, so pointing that out isn't the most useful contribution. The Spears durability is their biggest weakness (as I mentioned), but it's the ability to SfD move 22" after wiping a unit that makes me think they will be effective. The have the damage output to trigger SfD and the movement stat to make better use of it than most.
No, you can't keep everything alive. I'm not saying that. In fact, I've frequently said that understanding you can't keep everything alive is the key to success.
However, you were talking about taking spending 500 points that will be killed on turn 1. There's a difference.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
2017/06/21 00:47:40
Subject: Re:Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
So I've been tinkering with a few different lists and the following has been pretty successful for me over the course of about 8 or 9 games. This is organized using the Vanguard detachment.
So far I've found this to be one of the better iterations on my lists. I've also tried slightly more loaded Serpents with Guardians and some other variants but the above I think will be my list for my first tournament in 8th.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/21 00:48:57
2017/06/21 00:56:23
Subject: Re:Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Farseer_V2 wrote: So I've been tinkering with a few different lists and the following has been pretty successful for me over the course of about 8 or 9 games. This is organized using the Vanguard detachment.
So far I've found this to be one of the better iterations on my lists. I've also tried slightly more loaded Serpents with Guardians and some other variants but the above I think will be my list for my first tournament in 8th.
Why buy the CTM for the serpents if they don't have heavy weapons?
2017/06/21 01:00:34
Subject: Re:Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Farseer_V2 wrote: So I've been tinkering with a few different lists and the following has been pretty successful for me over the course of about 8 or 9 games. This is organized using the Vanguard detachment.
What is your plan for killing a hundred orks?
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
2017/06/21 08:05:12
Subject: Re:Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
What in the world did they do to my vaul's wrath battery? It took a heavy nerf in resilience and shot up in points like mad. For almost 200 points a unit of 3 averages 2 dead MEQ a turn... i don't even want to marhhammer the dcannons as they would get dropped t1 anyways. For 387 points. Only upsode is they can move and therefor get even worse at shooting...
2017/06/21 08:39:46
Subject: Re:Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Cpt. Icanus wrote: What in the world did they do to my vaul's wrath battery? It took a heavy nerf in resilience and shot up in points like mad. For almost 200 points a unit of 3 averages 2 dead MEQ a turn... i don't even want to marhhammer the dcannons as they would get dropped t1 anyways. For 387 points. Only upsode is they can move and therefor get even worse at shooting...
IG mortar teams are 27 points for 3 dudes with 3 mortars. (3D6 Shots at 48 inches with no AP and 1 DMG). 27 points. A wyvern is 85 points for 4D6 shots. Shadow weavers are 98 points. How is any of that balanced at all? Every time some one says something to the affect of 8th edition is so balanced or fun I just want to scream at them.
2017/06/21 09:02:48
Subject: Re:Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
I like this list and have been leaning towards similar lists with lots of Wraith units and Serpents. Not very Eldar to have such tough units but oh well. As someone mentioned above hordes could be an issue- I don't think they would necessarily beat you in a fight, (all your units can take a charge then fall back and shoot, the Spears can wreck hordes with doom) but I'm not sure you could kill them fast enough to get to objectives. I would really want Eldrad instead of that farseer, you could drop the CTMs and Star engines but that may not be enough points.
I used a 9 man Spears unit in a game last night and they took out 2 Carnifexes and Old One Eye in one turn. They then got shot by Hive Guard and charged by a Flying Tyrant which hurt a lot, but they killed the Tyrant and tied up the Hive Guard. Really liking these guys.
However, you were talking about taking spending 500 points that will be killed on turn 1. There's a difference.
390pts. I don't see them getting killed on turn 1 very often unless they are badly deployed. Things that ignore line of sight and do multiple wounds are their biggest problem.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/21 09:09:09
2017/06/21 09:30:26
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
DarknessEternal wrote: You're missing that almost all Eldar units are 25% more expensive for no reason.
I'm pretty sure every army got 25% more expensive. Some units and models doubled in price at least, like Necron Tomb Blades going from 18ppm to 42ppm.
Most of my army is a similar price or cheaper. Eldar definitely got a lot of unneeded nerfing.
Eldar where always going to be nerfed considering how ridiculous they where in 6th/7th
I'm glad I can take my Eldar off the shelf and have a good game with my opponents now.
2017/06/21 11:07:56
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Oh i'm good with nerfs to scatbikes, Wraithknights and spiders. But either they have some horrible typos in there or they just killed some units, that really weren't a problem before (i'm personally butthurt by vaul's wrath points costs. Just got a set of 3 and i really liked them for what they were. But for 300 pts?).
2017/06/21 11:14:25
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Cpt. Icanus wrote: Oh i'm good with nerfs to scatbikes, Wraithknights and spiders. But either they have some horrible typos in there or they just killed some units, that really weren't a problem before (i'm personally butthurt by vaul's wrath points costs. Just got a set of 3 and i really liked them for what they were. But for 300 pts?).
I know how you feel - I have 6 of them.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/06/21 12:11:07
Subject: Re:Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
I've played two games against hordes so far - one against 90 boyz and one against 100 conscripts. I won against the 'scripts, lost to the boyz. Ultimately with the list I'm generating 63 shruiken shots a turn which has been doing OK for me. The scythes are also a fair answer, especially with access to Soul Burst in the psychic phase to generate 3 to 4 rounds of shooting from them in one turn.
Hordes are challenging but it isn't new to me - I've played against tough horde lists before in a variety of formats. I think when you start looking at your tool kit with things like doom, guide, ancestor's grace, word of the phoenix, and SfD you can find those answers. Fortunately our psychic abilities are good and we've got access to some nice tools to make their application more consistent.
I like this list and have been leaning towards similar lists with lots of Wraith units and Serpents. Not very Eldar to have such tough units but oh well. As someone mentioned above hordes could be an issue- I don't think they would necessarily beat you in a fight, (all your units can take a charge then fall back and shoot, the Spears can wreck hordes with doom) but I'm not sure you could kill them fast enough to get to objectives. I would really want Eldrad instead of that farseer, you could drop the CTMs and Star engines but that may not be enough points.
I used a 9 man Spears unit in a game last night and they took out 2 Carnifexes and Old One Eye in one turn. They then got shot by Hive Guard and charged by a Flying Tyrant which hurt a lot, but they killed the Tyrant and tied up the Hive Guard. Really liking these guys.
I do like Eldrad - I could get him by dropping CTM (which I need to anyway) and dropping 1 shining spear. I may play test that set up and see how it works out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/21 12:16:16
2017/06/21 12:37:10
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
DarknessEternal wrote: You're missing that almost all Eldar units are 25% more expensive for no reason.
I'm pretty sure every army got 25% more expensive. Some units and models doubled in price at least, like Necron Tomb Blades going from 18ppm to 42ppm.
Most of my army is a similar price or cheaper. Eldar definitely got a lot of unneeded nerfing.
Eldar where always going to be nerfed considering how ridiculous they where in 6th/7th
I'm glad I can take my Eldar off the shelf and have a good game with my opponents now.
I was doing that before. Now I can't.
As well personal issues aside that is a terrible way to run a business.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2017/06/21 12:37:35
Subject: Re:Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
I do like Eldrad - I could get him by dropping CTM (which I need to anyway) and dropping 1 shining spear. I may play test that set up and see how it works out.
That's the annoying thing with Spears; you really want a full strength squad, but when you're fine tuning a list that 43pts for dropping one becomes very tempting!
How are you finding Wave Serpents? I haven't used any yet but they seem super durable on paper, have they been surviving? I would worry with only three that going second and losing one in the first turn will really cripple your rush.
EDIT: I just noticed something really wierd: The ability to discharge the Serpent shield for mortal wounds doesn't specify when you do it!?!? You could do it in your opponents shooting phase after they've finished shooting at you lol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/21 12:50:03
2017/06/21 13:21:30
Subject: Re:Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
I like this list and have been leaning towards similar lists with lots of Wraith units and Serpents. Not very Eldar to have such tough units but oh well. As someone mentioned above hordes could be an issue- I don't think they would necessarily beat you in a fight, (all your units can take a charge then fall back and shoot, the Spears can wreck hordes with doom) but I'm not sure you could kill them fast enough to get to objectives. I would really want Eldrad instead of that farseer, you could drop the CTMs and Star engines but that may not be enough points.
I used a 9 man Spears unit in a game last night and they took out 2 Carnifexes and Old One Eye in one turn. They then got shot by Hive Guard and charged by a Flying Tyrant which hurt a lot, but they killed the Tyrant and tied up the Hive Guard. Really liking these guys.
However, you were talking about taking spending 500 points that will be killed on turn 1. There's a difference.
390pts. I don't see them getting killed on turn 1 very often unless they are badly deployed. Things that ignore line of sight and do multiple wounds are their biggest problem.
Am I missing something? What makes Eldrad so good?
Necrons - 6000+
Eldar/DE/Harlequins- 6000+
Genestealer Cult - 2000
Currently enthralled by Blanchitsu and INQ28.
2017/06/21 13:28:09
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Eldrad isn't like an auto take over a Farseer or anything but he gets to do all 3 powers instead of just two and all the powers are good. Our spells are also quite hard to cast at 7 warp cost and his ability to add 1 to the roll for each successful cast makes a significant difference. You can use the reroll on the first power and the next two will be easier to get off. I feel like I can only bank on a Farseer getting one power off but with Eldrad I'm confident I'll get two.
In that list in particular I would really want Fortune on the bikes and you always want Doom and Guide.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/21 13:31:38
2017/06/21 13:58:58
Subject: Re:Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
I do like Eldrad - I could get him by dropping CTM (which I need to anyway) and dropping 1 shining spear. I may play test that set up and see how it works out.
That's the annoying thing with Spears; you really want a full strength squad, but when you're fine tuning a list that 43pts for dropping one becomes very tempting!
How are you finding Wave Serpents? I haven't used any yet but they seem super durable on paper, have they been surviving? I would worry with only three that going second and losing one in the first turn will really cripple your rush.
So far Wave Serpents have been really solid for me. I should note we're playing by what we assume will be the ITC ruling and giving the player who finishes deploying first a +1 to the roll to go first rather than it being a fixed value. Also with the strength of the serpent shield you can survive a fair amount of firepower. I tend to deploy them pretty conservatively - given that they have an effective 17" move on turn one you can play to blocking LoS and even possibly getting cover depending on your terrain layout (we play with a lot of the FLG terrain so we have some actual LoS blocking pieces).
And yeah I don't like giving up the Shining Spear but I think testing with Eldrad is worth it and I don't want to give up Vectored Engines - that -1 to hit has been a very worthwhile buy so far.
2017/06/21 13:59:39
Subject: Re:Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
The scythes are also a fair answer, especially with access to Soul Burst in the psychic phase to generate 3 to 4 rounds of shooting from them in one turn.
Can I just ask how you're doing 3-4 rounds of shooting per turn? I thought a unit could only soulburst once per turn?
The scythes are also a fair answer, especially with access to Soul Burst in the psychic phase to generate 3 to 4 rounds of shooting from them in one turn.
Can I just ask how you're doing 3-4 rounds of shooting per turn? I thought a unit could only soulburst once per turn?
Sorry - I should clarify. I meant that as a combined total from the 2 units I run. So in theory its 2 from Unit A and 1 from Unit B, possibly 2 from Unit B depending on what all ends up dead.
2017/06/21 14:15:04
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
I think the hardest part about Eldar in 8th is making a low point army(1000 points). At 2000 points you can start to add some real tools, but at 1000 and below you are getting into trouble as our cheapest unit is Storm Guardian, but they will in turn require an expensive Serpent to deliver them.
2017/06/21 15:50:13
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
admironheart wrote: The Marine player had 2 dreads and it took 2 turns to kill one with a several tanks + HWS.
The Lord was an old model so 1 bright lance + cats x2
It got hit by 2 basilisks and stuff. Even with Fortune it was dead after 1 full turn. But it did take a lot of stuff to kill it. and It was out of LOS for most of the stuff that hit it.
The Marine player could have used his techmarine to heal the dread too. I'm not sure if the Eldar has anything that could do that. Plus the degrading stats would have hurt, but it was dead prior to having to go thru that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess I should start using terms like Rounds and Turns as they apply to 8th edition now
Hopefully SM/IG combo armies won't be a thing. Nice for fun, but it could really restrict more competitive army building.
2017/06/21 16:55:17
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
I ran
Eldrad
7 warlocks
Warlock with shining spear
10 guardians with shuriken cannon
10 guardians with shuriken cannon
10 guardians with bright lance
Night spinner
3 dark reapers with tempest launcher
10 warp spiders dual spinners
Hemlock wraithfighter
My opponent ran
Knight paladin
Knight errant
2 dragoons
2 dunecrawlers
2 skitarii units
Inquisitor
Ended up a draw at turn 7 with eldrad and the night spinner trading fire with the 2 dunecrawlers.
The knights were scary but lack the rate of fire for their points value to really dish out the hurt. Though the extra move of models means they can get up in your face really fast.
I managed to seize initiative which definitely helped.
eldrad was great as usual. He did manage to lose 3 wounds in the first 2 turns to perils of the warp but didn't take another wound the rest of the game. His +1 to rolls on sucessful cast is really big. When you can smite for 5 then fortune and doom on 6s with a reroll he becomes fairly consistent.
The warlock enclave was surprisingly good. I ran them a couple of times at 5 strong and they failed to impress, dying fairly easily and not really doing much beck. I tried them at 7 which was a lot more effective. D6 destructor and the ability to drain and enhance backed up by fortune makes them a rock in combat, especially against big vehicles.
The guardians were solid also. A single warlock being able to conceal all 3 units is handy, tho sustained fire drops them. 10 man squads were generally ignored for better targets allowing them to catapault doomed knights to great effect.
The warp spiders also performed a lot better for me this game. Dropping them in cover makes them hard to shift with their flickerjump. They even were surprisingly resilient in close combat before jumping out to keep up the fire.
The reapers were disappointing. They managed to kill a dragoon but were in turn gunned down pretty fast, despite being in cover. For me they are too expensive and too hard to keep alive unless you can get them behind something to block line of sight.
The hemlock underperformed but they are definitely solid. With conceal up it will be tough to take down and the scythes managed to do some damage to a knight. Unfortunately the dunecrawlers made short work of it but it was still worthwhile to run.
The nightspinner proved hard to take down being able to sit back in cover at max range. Unfortunately it failed to fire with any significant effect, but that was more bad luck then it being a bad choice. That coupled with doom is a dangerous combo but it suffers from the 2d6 variance and didn't end up firing more than 7 shots the whole game.
I am going to try out dropping the reapers and some warlocks for a howling banshee unit. with their -1 to hit and drain they should be surprisingly durable in combat against most enemy and doom can help to mitigate the low strength value.
2017/06/22 01:08:51
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Numbers for our heavy weapons against a fair few units and vehicles. Also has the Pulse Laser and Prism Cannon.
Green Highlighted ones are best result in each category.
Note that this is assuming 100% accuracy to simplify, which would make make the Shuriken Cannon seem a little worse.
D6 hits or wounds were represented as 3.5.
D3 hits or wounds are represented as 2
2017/06/22 02:18:13
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
It's worth noting the doomweaver on the night spinner as well. It stacks up seriously well in all categories and is statistically better than the prism cannon.
2017/06/22 03:56:23
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Fast pointy ear wrote: Numbers for our heavy weapons against a fair few units and vehicles. Also has the Pulse Laser and Prism Cannon.
Green Highlighted ones are best result in each category.
Note that this is assuming 100% accuracy to simplify, which would make make the Shuriken Cannon seem a little worse.
D6 hits or wounds were represented as 3.5.
D3 hits or wounds are represented as 2
Is it just me or have you highlighted the wrong things in a few places? The Pulse Laser has higher numbers than the Starcannon against Primaris Marines and is better than the Bright Lance against Dreads and the Land Raider. Unless there is some other factor I'm not seeing.
2017/06/22 04:32:27
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Is it just me or have you highlighted the wrong things in a few places? The Pulse Laser has higher numbers than the Starcannon against Primaris Marines and is better than the Bright Lance against Dreads and the Land Raider. Unless there is some other factor I'm not seeing.
As Wyldcarde said, its got one for the generic heavies and one for the vehicle specific ones. Probably should have used another colour, my bad.
Aaaaaand I kind of forgot Nightspinners existed. Following the same order, using 2D6 = 7:
which is better than all types of Prism cannon and the Pulse Laser against everything (with the exception of the Land Raider, where it equals the Lance Prism Cannon).
Not bad for the bargain tank!
@Wyldcarde, how have you been finding the Nightspinner?
2017/06/22 09:11:10
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Statistically it is very good. Unfortunately it is very swingy due to the 2d6 shots. In one game it was decimating everything and in my most recent game it didn't roll more than 7 shots all game. And then couldn't hit anything even with guide.
It is super fast and it's 48 inch range not needing line of sight can make it really tough to kill. And it works really well with doom and other eldar tricks.
For 167 points it is very easy to earn its points back and is a good all round tank which is likely to stick around to grab an objective late.
2017/06/22 12:45:47
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
I'm doing a mixed Ynnari force for casual play and I'm looking at building my first unit of Wraithguard/blades. I don't have a Wave Serpent for them just yet, should I build them with cannons or with D-Scythes? I really do like how the wraithblades look but my current force is lacking in anti-tank (I only have a raider w/Dark Lance and a Fire Prism for anti-tank). Any ideas?
Necrons - 6000+
Eldar/DE/Harlequins- 6000+
Genestealer Cult - 2000
Currently enthralled by Blanchitsu and INQ28. 
