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 Selym wrote:
[

No, no, that's not weird. What's weird is how Eldar have always played with the mindset that "Right, I need to kill a unit. Where's my sacrificial squad of ____?"

Running away from combat, cheating with magic, and generally range-scumming is exactly how Eldar should play. Cowardly tricksy elves.
And I miss the pewpewlayzorz of the lasgun. Give that power to Guardians, and I'd be a happy chappie.

Shuriken Catapults used to be 24 inch range which meant that Guardians could actually keep a distance and save their precious lives. Then GW wanted to balance the guns, and instead of increasing the point cost or something else they decided that anyone wielding a Catapult was in fact a Suicide unit and needed to get in the face of their inevitable doom.

18 inches with battle focus was good enough last edition.

Martel732 wrote:
Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.

Thank you for qualifying your statement. Suffering by not having easy access or massively overpowered and undercosted units is suffering I can get behind.

From what I've seen the Wraithknight isn't really overcosted compared to the Imperial Knight. Both run around 500 points, and the Wraithknight does have advantages over the Imperial Knight. The base model can advance and fire its Heavy Wraithcannons. Without secondary weapons, a Titanic Ghostglaive/Scattershield runs cheaper than a fully kitted-out knight Warden and has no -1 penalty when hitting in close combat. Suncannon and Scattershield has longer range than the Gatling gun on a Knight with better AP and damage.

So this is the list i'm running at ATC. Pure Craftworld.

Autarch w/ Banshee Mask, Shuriken Cat, Power Sword, Fusion Pistol
Farseer

Guardians x10
Wave Serpent with CTM, and Twin EML, Shuricannon
Guardians x10
Wave Serpent with CTM and Twin EML, ShuriCannon
Guardians x10 with EML

Fire Dragons x5 w/ Exarch
Wave Serpent with CTM, and Twin BL

Dark Reapers x5 w/ Exarch
War Walkers x2 w/ Twin Scatter Lasers

Wraith Knight w/ two wraith cannons and two scatter lasers.

I've been having great luck with it so far. Local store is doing another tournament this weekend that I'll get to take it on one last spin before I have to lock this list in for good.

That looks like a pretty solid list with a good selection of Buffs. Little light on assault apart from the WK himself but that isn't necessarily a problem.

The AML choice is interesting. How's their performance for you? I'd probably take more Dark Reapers for the price of AMLs though. Or move them to War Walkers since they can just move before battle and then stand still.

 Shadenuat wrote:
The AML choice is interesting. How's their performance for you? I'd probably take more Dark Reapers for the price of AMLs though. Or move them to War Walkers since they can just move before battle and then stand still.

So far so good. They're slightly more expensive then a Bright Lance, but their better range and multiple firing options makes them worth the extra points IMO.

I am limited in model count for the Dark Reapers, and I do absolutely love those guys. I like keeping the war walkers smaller, because they seem less threatening that way, and their 12" move before the game starts generally means they'll get a turn 1 assault. They aren't meant to kill whatever they assault, just make sure that a unit like devastators, land raiders, etc... never get to shoot.


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 Karhedron wrote:
That looks like a pretty solid list with a good selection of Buffs. Little light on assault apart from the WK himself but that isn't necessarily a problem.

With Doom, I've found even the guardians can get the job done in assault. Just gotta pick the right targets. This is definitely a shooting army. Use their inherent speed to stay out of assaults that you don't want to be in. Use their strong shooting to soften up targets then assault when beneficial.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.

Thank you for qualifying your statement. Suffering by not having easy access or massively overpowered and undercosted units is suffering I can get behind.

From what I've seen the Wraithknight isn't really overcosted compared to the Imperial Knight. Both run around 500 points, and the Wraithknight does have advantages over the Imperial Knight. The base model can advance and fire its Heavy Wraithcannons. Without secondary weapons, a Titanic Ghostglaive/Scattershield runs cheaper than a fully kitted-out knight Warden and has no -1 penalty when hitting in close combat. Suncannon and Scattershield has longer range than the Gatling gun on a Knight with better AP and damage.

Making Eldar powerful, but fragile is what gives them their mystique. If they just absorb infinite damage and shoot with infinite firepower, it gets boring fast.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.

Thank you for qualifying your statement. Suffering by not having easy access or massively overpowered and undercosted units is suffering I can get behind.

From what I've seen the Wraithknight isn't really overcosted compared to the Imperial Knight. Both run around 500 points, and the Wraithknight does have advantages over the Imperial Knight. The base model can advance and fire its Heavy Wraithcannons. Without secondary weapons, a Titanic Ghostglaive/Scattershield runs cheaper than a fully kitted-out knight Warden and has no -1 penalty when hitting in close combat. Suncannon and Scattershield has longer range than the Gatling gun on a Knight with better AP and damage.

Making Eldar powerful, but fragile is what gives them their mystique. If they just absorb infinite damage and shoot with infinite firepower, it gets boring fast.

Currently Eldar units are either:

A) Fragile with low damage output, or
B) Durable with moderate damage output, or
C) Whatever Martel's been facing, and clearly has no weaknesses.

C) Whatever Martel's been facing, and clearly has no weaknesses.

that is just too funny for me

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.

Thank you for qualifying your statement. Suffering by not having easy access or massively overpowered and undercosted units is suffering I can get behind.

From what I've seen the Wraithknight isn't really overcosted compared to the Imperial Knight. Both run around 500 points, and the Wraithknight does have advantages over the Imperial Knight. The base model can advance and fire its Heavy Wraithcannons. Without secondary weapons, a Titanic Ghostglaive/Scattershield runs cheaper than a fully kitted-out knight Warden and has no -1 penalty when hitting in close combat. Suncannon and Scattershield has longer range than the Gatling gun on a Knight with better AP and damage.

Would you recommend the Wraithknight with suncannon/scattershield with shuricannons in this edition? Thinking about picking one up. People on this forum were saying its too pricey but honestly, looking at it and comparing it to the other big shots in other armies it looks rather comparable, assuming you have plenty of anti tank in your army as a whole.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.

Thank you for qualifying your statement. Suffering by not having easy access or massively overpowered and undercosted units is suffering I can get behind.

From what I've seen the Wraithknight isn't really overcosted compared to the Imperial Knight. Both run around 500 points, and the Wraithknight does have advantages over the Imperial Knight. The base model can advance and fire its Heavy Wraithcannons. Without secondary weapons, a Titanic Ghostglaive/Scattershield runs cheaper than a fully kitted-out knight Warden and has no -1 penalty when hitting in close combat. Suncannon and Scattershield has longer range than the Gatling gun on a Knight with better AP and damage.

Would you recommend the Wraithknight with suncannon/scattershield with shuricannons in this edition? Thinking about picking one up. People on this forum were saying its too pricey but honestly, looking at it and comparing it to the other big shots in other armies it looks rather comparable, assuming you have plenty of anti tank in your army as a whole.

I definitely prefer the Wraithcannons. Those things will destroy anything they shoot at, baring another Lord of War. Even against most Lords of War, they'll deliver a devastating blow. My Wraithknight delivered 17 wounds to a Knight in a single round of fire recently. He basically solo'd a Stormsurge the other day. I bring him primarily as a foil to other Super Heavy's. He may not spam D weapons anymore, but Str 10 d6 wound weapons may as well be D.

I would not recommend a wraithknight.

Doesn't matter what you arm it with. Their usefulness to cost ratio is too low.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I would not recommend a wraithknight.

Doesn't matter what you arm it with. Their usefulness to cost ratio is too low.

Tell that to Martel, he thinks they're still OP...

Some people will declare Eldar to be OP no matter what. Probably would continue even if they get a direct nerf to everything in their codex (likely).

Hey all, had my first game with Eldar this edition, and decided to try kind of an oddball list. It was a 2000 point game against Tyranids, which was running a full monster mash horde with about 100 bodies on the board, 2 carnifexes, a haruspex, mawloc, drop podding devilgaunts, broodlord, multiple warriors and biovores. Fairly nasty!

I used the Ynnari rules and an outrider detachment so I wouldn't be forced to buy more troops than I wanted. My list was as follows:


Looking across the board, I was pretty sure I was going to lose this one, as I was absurdly outnumbered and everything looked really nasty and in my face. I ended up almost tabling my opponent,

The wraithblades were absurdly survivable, and killed 20+ hormagaunts, about 12 gargoyles, the haruspex (killing it in one round of combat before it got to swing!), 2 carnifexes, a unit of tyranid warriors and a Tyranid Prime. I still had 6 models left in the unit at the end of the game. That was like half of my opponent's army.

I thought those dudes were overpriced. Not so sure about that any more! Maybe it was just good luck on my part, but the combination of the 3+/4++ with 3 T5 wounds made them really hard to take down, and they can certainly bring the pain with their S7, D3 damage attacks. When combined with soulburst granting them additional fight phases, they were just ridiculously killy. Will definitely use again!

Taking a gander at the Wraithblades, and they look like the piece I was missing for taking and, more importantly holding, an objective. T5, 3 Wounds, a 3+ save (2 in cover, important that!) and possibly a 4+ invulnerable save. You only get the 4++ if you take an axe, correct? You can't take the sword and get it?

Not having the awesome guns of the usual Wraith guys is an ouchy, but if I stick a Warlock in there with 'em, that'd be a unit that's -1 to-be hit, T5, Sv 2+/4++ and 3 wounds each ... that just seems like it's all *kinds* of sticky and would be able to deal with about anything sent to toss 'em out of the hold. That's about 300 points in all tho, so the question then becomes "Is it worth it?"

But CWE therefore OP.

I mean, our DAs are 1ppm cheaper than Sternies, and didn't get the huge buffs or point drops plasma got. So they aren't as OK as Tac Marines, but still...

Selym wrote:Currently Eldar units are either:

A) Fragile with low damage output, or
B) Durable with moderate damage output, or
C) Whatever Martel's been facing, and clearly has no weaknesses.

I'd disagree. From the reports people have been bringing back Eldar Infantry are doing very well in 8th if used correctly. Fire Dragons make vehicles disappear, Dark Reapers are one of the nastiest shooting units in the game, and most all of the other Aspect Warriors seems to be useable on the tabletop as well in their proper roles. Guardians will outperform MEQ with Bolters at 12 inches, and Dire Avengers will outperform the same to 18 inches while being tougher vs AP -3 or better weaponry. And unless the unit has funky deployment or movement rules, you can add D6 in he's to the threat range of any Eldar infantry unit thanks to Battle Focus.



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 DarknessEternal wrote:
I would not recommend a wraithknight.

Doesn't matter what you arm it with. Their usefulness to cost ratio is too low.

Would you recommend an Imperial Knight? The price range is very similar, but it trades versatility overall for versatility in shooting.

An Imperial Knight has to get rid of melee weapons if it wants better shooting. A Wraithknight always has its fists, and four S8 AP -4 D6 damage attacks is nothing to sneeze at, even vs. superheavies.

I wouldn't say secondary weapons (barring what you get by default on the Imperial Knight and the Carapace Weapons) are worth it for either unit though. Sinks too many points into an already expensive unit.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I would not recommend a wraithknight.

Doesn't matter what you arm it with. Their usefulness to cost ratio is too low.

I thought the exact same thing, but I love the model so I ran one anyway. Built an entire list of Serpents and wraith constructs (4xWS, WK, 2xWL, Hemlock), and it just overwhelmed the enemy AT with targets. This particular opponent decided to start popping my tanks and just suffer through the WK, but now that they have the titanic feet attack (not as powerful but much more reliable than stomp) and the ability to disengage, shoot, and charge every turn... making it immune to tarpits... Ignoring it is really no longer an option.

Long story short, I'm glad it's weaker on paper because hopefully I won't get dirty looks when I go buy a second one... because it's still damn good and I want a second one.



Also, in response to an earlier discussion: Guardian Defender weapon platforms can be used defensively. 3+ save and 2 wounds allows you to put it in front of massed small arms fire. 4 guardian's worth of wounds would be the average it takes (twice it's cost with a Shuriken Cannon), but I had a good streak of armor saves the other days and saved a whole squads worth of wounds

5 Dire Avengers might outshoot 5 Marines with Boltguns. But for the cost of 5 DAs you get 5 Marines +Pg +Combi... And that will outshoot DAs easily all the way up to T14 without even using overcharge.

Tac Marines take twice as much small arms fire, don't lose a notable amount of firepower until their last 2 models and, in a pinch, are much better in CC.

(Heck, in my last game, a tac squad beat banshees + Exarch + Jain Zar in CC... My dice hate me.)

Wakshaani wrote:
Taking a gander at the Wraithblades, and they look like the piece I was missing for taking and, more importantly holding, an objective. T5, 3 Wounds, a 3+ save (2 in cover, important that!) and possibly a 4+ invulnerable save. You only get the 4++ if you take an axe, correct? You can't take the sword and get it?

Not having the awesome guns of the usual Wraith guys is an ouchy, but if I stick a Warlock in there with 'em, that'd be a unit that's -1 to-be hit, T5, Sv 2+/4++ and 3 wounds each ... that just seems like it's all *kinds* of sticky and would be able to deal with about anything sent to toss 'em out of the hold. That's about 300 points in all tho, so the question then becomes "Is it worth it?"

Keep in mind that I was facing a very melee oriented force. Against something that doesn't want to be in melee, I don't think they would have been nearly as good. However, I have a feeling that melee armies will be making a big comeback this edition, so having a unit that can take a charge and act as the bulwark for your shooting units is pretty nice. The points cost for the axe variety, though, is huge, so probably not feasible at low points levels.

And to your second point, yes, they are great objective holders. The reason my opponent threw so much stuff at them was because they had take a crucial mid field objective, and he was going to lose if he did!"n't push them off it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yes, and you need to take the axe if you want the invuln, too.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.

Thank you for qualifying your statement. Suffering by not having easy access or massively overpowered and undercosted units is suffering I can get behind.

From what I've seen the Wraithknight isn't really overcosted compared to the Imperial Knight. Both run around 500 points, and the Wraithknight does have advantages over the Imperial Knight. The base model can advance and fire its Heavy Wraithcannons. Without secondary weapons, a Titanic Ghostglaive/Scattershield runs cheaper than a fully kitted-out knight Warden and has no -1 penalty when hitting in close combat. Suncannon and Scattershield has longer range than the Gatling gun on a Knight with better AP and damage.

Both run around 500 points: wrong. A barebones sword+shield WK is 487, while a Knight Errant (which is well equiped for CC and shooting) is 430. How do you call the second close to 500 points?

the Wraithknight does have advantages over the Imperial Knight: wrong. The Wraithknight has no single objective advantage over the IK, expet being able to bennefit from buffs (not inherent to it) and losing an stellar 1 inch less of movement when wounded, while the IK gets a 5++ save against shooting by default.

The base model can advance and fire its Heavy Wraithcannons: Situational. Being allowed to move an extra 1d6 and shoot with -1 to hit has very limited utility with 36" range.

Titanic Ghostglaive/Scattershield runs cheaper than a fully kitted-out knight Warden: true. Yet such a WK is only useful in CC while the Knight Warden has awesome shooting and good close combat potential. That's the minimum you could expect, that a significantly worse WK would be cheaper than a superior IK.

Suncannon and Scattershield has longer range than the Gatling gun on a Knight with better AP and damage: partially true. 1d3 damage is statistically the same as D2, with a lower minimum and higher maximum. The Suncannon also gets 7 shots on average against always 12. That's a very significant difference.

Veredict: Your post was very biased towards the WK or you didn't realize most WK options are worse or more expensive.

Would you recommend an Imperial Knight? The price range is very similar, but it trades versatility overall for versatility in shooting.

An Imperial Knight has to get rid of melee weapons if it wants better shooting. A Wraithknight always has its fists, and four S8 AP -4 D6 damage attacks is nothing to sneeze at, even vs. superheavies.

Titanic Wraithbone Fists are worse against every target than Titanic feet (which both Knights get by default). With the WK you get the ilusion of getting a better CC weapon for free, but it's just cosmetic. You are better using the feet anyway.

I agree entirely with DanielFM. The suncannon is definitely worse in my eyes than the rapid fire battle cannon. I'd much rather have S8 instead of S6 and lose one AP. It's not even close in my eyes. Battlecannon is *way* better against vehicles. Some how the suncannon is 18 points *more expensive* than the Battlecannon.

Maybe you could argue that heavy wraith cannons are better than the IK Thermal Cannon. Without doing the math I can't definitely say the wraithcannons are better than the knight's other weapon options. But having 2 wraith cannons and no invulnerable save does kind of suck.

I guess the ghostglaive is better than the reaper chainsword because S16 vs S12 but that's not worth the extra 35 points the glaive costs. Also a IK can take the chainsword, a rapid fire battle cannon, and still have an invulnerable save. A WK can't do that.

The real kicker of the WK being over costed is that you can easily fit 4 IK's in 2000 points. That list will be very competitive and while it might not win every tournament it's going to wreck shop on any army that's not ready for it. You can't do that with WK's.

how do people feel about rangers for troops? and iis there any reason to pick a vyper over a void weaver in a ynnari list? been trying to figure out how best to use vypers if i should at all and the change to starcannons are kinda annoying. slowly trying to figure out how i want to build my army and im thinking of rangers for a troop choice if i go for a batilion since they moved windriders to fast attack, or should i just skip the battalion?

lordtaco wrote:
how do people feel about rangers for troops?

Mine have performed well in early games. The ability to hit target Characters is more useful against some lists than others but is never wasted IMHO. The bonus Mortal Wounds are nice and can come in handy but work best with a Doomseer on hand (the same is true of many of your weapons).

I initially felt they may be a smidge over-costed when compared to SM Scouts for example but their better deployment rules help to balance them a little. Between the -1 to hit and +2 save in cover, they are just about tough enough that your opponent will have to divert some effort to shifting them if he wants to avoid death by a thousand paper cuts (toxin darts?). Also the fact that enemy units cannot Deep Strike into flamer range anymore is handy.

In summary they are a 100 point Troop unit that can threaten anything in the game, do not need a transport or other upgrades to contribute and can occasionally pick off annoying Characters for you. I think they are reasonably solid in 8th edition if you are looking to run a Battalion and rack up those CPs.

lordtaco wrote:
how do people feel about rangers for troops? and iis there any reason to pick a vyper over a void weaver in a ynnari list? been trying to figure out how best to use vypers if i should at all and the change to starcannons are kinda annoying. slowly trying to figure out how i want to build my army and im thinking of rangers for a troop choice if i go for a batilion since they moved windriders to fast attack, or should i just skip the battalion?

In the games I've played with rangers they were very fragile and way to expensive. They couldn't put out enough dakka before they got wiped out in every game. I would recommend against using them.

I ran dual cannon vypers a few times. They also got killed pretty easily. Not sure if the void weaver would be better or not. -1 to hit and 4++ save is nice. Seems like it should be better.

 Silent_Tempest wrote:
I agree entirely with DanielFM. The suncannon is definitely worse in my eyes than the rapid fire battle cannon. I'd much rather have S8 instead of S6 and lose one AP. It's not even close in my eyes. Battlecannon is *way* better against vehicles. Some how the suncannon is 18 points *more expensive* than the Battlecannon.

Maybe you could argue that heavy wraith cannons are better than the IK Thermal Cannon. Without doing the math I can't definitely say the wraithcannons are better than the knight's other weapon options. But having 2 wraith cannons and no invulnerable save does kind of suck.

I guess the ghostglaive is better than the reaper chainsword because S16 vs S12 but that's not worth the extra 35 points the glaive costs. Also a IK can take the chainsword, a rapid fire battle cannon, and still have an invulnerable save. A WK can't do that.

The Rapid-Fire Battlecannon is similar to the Suncannon (but cheaper), and the Avenger Gatling cannon is way better.

The IK Thermal Cannon is way better than the Heavy Wraithcannon by virtue of being more versatile. Extra shots against 5+ models and 2 dice pick highest damage against big targets make it good at both roles.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Would you recommend the Wraithknight with suncannon/scattershield with shuricannons in this edition? Thinking about picking one up. People on this forum were saying its too pricey but honestly, looking at it and comparing it to the other big shots in other armies it looks rather comparable, assuming you have plenty of anti tank in your army as a whole.

I think I would still prefer the dual Heavy Wraithcannon version with Scatter Lasers on the shoulders. The WK ignores the -1 to hit for moving and firing heavy weapons which means the usual rationale for taking Shuricannons does not apply to it (put them elsewhere). Also the 36" range of the Scatter lasers synergises well with that of the Heavy Wraithcannons.

Yes the WK is pricey compared to a Knight but he can benefit from army Buffs that IKs do not get. The best solution to this is to make sure he gets those buffs. With his size and firepower, he benefits disproportionately from Guide and Fortune so put a Farseer near him to keep those powers on him if you can. Yes it is extra points but he really benefits from the buffs, you need HQs anyway in most formations and the Farseer can buff other units if the WK dies or is not under pressure. Also the Farseer can dispel so is never wasted.

I would run the Heavy Wraithcannon Knight in a mechanised force with plenty of Shuricannon Serpents. The Serpents provide mobility, protection for your infantry and plenty of anti-infantry firepower. If your opponent charges them, they can disengage while still firing at full effect thanks to "Fly". Your WK and maybe a unit of Fire Dragons can then provide your anti-tank needs. I would run something like this.


That comes to about 1650 points. Depending on your points levels, you can choose what to take for the rest. The Farseer buffs the WK while the Autarch hangs just behind the Wave Serpents to boost their shooting. The WK can hurtle forward Shooting and Charging and stomping all over stuff before withdrawing to rinse and repeat.

The lists I've written with the Wraithknight have been similar. Dual cannon Knight and 4 Serpents with Firedragons, Wraithguard, and Guardians. You're probably going first and you rush the serpents forwards, shooting the shuricannons and WK at the enemies anti tank. That gives you a good chance of the WK not being dropped right off the bat.

While it would overwhelm some armies anti tank I always think: 15 lascannons could kill the knight turn 1.