Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Niiru wrote:
What is the current top unit for anti-tank and anti-big things?

The three units I'm looking at are Reapers, War Walkers and Hornets, as they seem to be the ones that are the shooty gun platforms for eldar (also the actual gun platforms, but I'm not a fan of the models really, and they seem lackluster, but if you prefer them please say why )

War Walkers get a 5+ invulnerable, and so are pretty tough and can carry two heavy weapons. Being able to squadron means good use of guide etc too I guess.

Hornets are even tougher, and the -1 to hit is better than the 5+ invulnerable of walkers, but they only get it if they advance which mean no heavy weapons - shuriken cannons only. Which seems a waste. Nice models though.

Reapers. The most fragile, but highly accurate and so should be able to do a decent amount of damage. Not sure on the maths yet as to whether they do more or less damage than the other options for the points, but they do seem more fragile and more easily killed off.


So what do people get? I am finding that the only anti-tank in my list is D-Scythes, which are probably better off aimed at big infantry or even hordes than trying to get them in tank killing range..

Hemlocks are very good for killing tanks. Absent any enemy psykers, a Hemlock that can get close to a tank expects about 7 wounds on it, paying about 31 points per inflicted wound. This is better than a Dark Reaper, who pays about 41 points per inflicted wound (vs T7 3+). The Hemlock's major drawback is its range, but it's still very solid. Reapers tend to benefit more from various support units, however.

I do not like War Walkers or Hornets. Even War Walkers with bright lances are slightly less efficient than Hemlocks as long as they don't have Guide, and the Hemlocks are also great against lots of other targets while the War Walkers are far less durable.

I think the best ranged anti-tank Eldar unit other than Dark Reapers is the Crimson Hunter. They shoot about as well as War Walkers per point vs ground targets and are better than even Hemlocks against skimmers, and they're significantly more durable than War Walkers. However, they don't get much out of Guide since they have BS2+ and generally shoot at -1.

Niiru wrote:
What is the current top unit for anti-tank and anti-big things?

Brightlance Wave Serpents.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Spoiler:

What is the current top unit for anti-tank and anti-big things?

The three units I'm looking at are Reapers, War Walkers and Hornets, as they seem to be the ones that are the shooty gun platforms for eldar (also the actual gun platforms, but I'm not a fan of the models really, and they seem lackluster, but if you prefer them please say why )

War Walkers get a 5+ invulnerable, and so are pretty tough and can carry two heavy weapons. Being able to squadron means good use of guide etc too I guess.

Hornets are even tougher, and the -1 to hit is better than the 5+ invulnerable of walkers, but they only get it if they advance which mean no heavy weapons - shuriken cannons only. Which seems a waste. Nice models though.

Reapers. The most fragile, but highly accurate and so should be able to do a decent amount of damage. Not sure on the maths yet as to whether they do more or less damage than the other options for the points, but they do seem more fragile and more easily killed off.


So what do people get? I am finding that the only anti-tank in my list is D-Scythes, which are probably better off aimed at big infantry or even hordes than trying to get them in tank killing range..

Hemlocks are very good for killing tanks. Absent any enemy psykers, a Hemlock that can get close to a tank expects about 7 wounds on it, paying about 31 points per inflicted wound. This is better than a Dark Reaper, who pays about 41 points per inflicted wound (vs T7 3+). The Hemlock's major drawback is its range, but it's still very solid. Reapers tend to benefit more from various support units, however.

I do not like War Walkers or Hornets. Even War Walkers with bright lances are slightly less efficient than Hemlocks as long as they don't have Guide, and the Hemlocks are also great against lots of other targets while the War Walkers are far less durable.

I think the best ranged anti-tank Eldar unit other than Dark Reapers is the Crimson Hunter. They shoot about as well as War Walkers per point vs ground targets and are better than even Hemlocks against skimmers, and they're significantly more durable than War Walkers. However, they don't get much out of Guide since they have BS2+ and generally shoot at -1.

Thanks for the write up I've been considering war walkers just because I thought they were meant to be good on the table, but I'm not a fan of the models so I'd have to do a conversion... I already had a Hemlock planned for the list though, so maybe war walkers aren't worth it. Hadn't considered a crimson hunter at all...

DarknessEternal wrote:

Niiru wrote:
What is the current top unit for anti-tank and anti-big things?

Brightlance Wave Serpents.

Really? I have 2 serpents in my list, but I have them geared up with shuriken cannons so that they can advance and still shoot. I hadn't thought putting bright lances on them was considered points-efficient... though I hadn't really considered it too much

I put bright lances on serpents to make target priority harder when the unit they transport is not very threatening (read: guardians). When carrying wraithguard you are already a target and also possibly advancing, so shurikens all the way.

A twin blance serpent is slightly under 160 points, nowhere near efficient enough to be the primary source. They are a decent addition to my anti-tank firepower.

I don't really like lances on Serpents since I pretty much always want to be moving with them, so that's an immediate -25% efficiency. My opponent has to deal with the Serpents anyway since they're going to be right in his face charging everything.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I don't really like lances on Serpents since I pretty much always want to be moving with them, so that's an immediate -25% efficiency. My opponent has to deal with the Serpents anyway since they're going to be right in his face charging everything.

My two serpents will always be wraithguard carriers, which is why I'm looking for what to do with the rest of my points haha.

I considered walkers or hornets for gun platforms, but I'm wondering if maybe I'll just go all-in on close range and put in some jetbikes / harlequins with fusion pistols in a starweaver.

Hemlock Wraithfighters are my other Anti tank. Couple of them in my 2k list

EML on my Serpents. 5 of them on the table and I like the flexibility of the modes for anti-tank or infantry. The Shuricannon is just gravy.

I don't want to derail the anti-tank discussion, as I think it's an important one, but I want to ask something else at the same time, so I'll put them both in this post so people can follow on with either/both

1) What are your anti-tank choices, and how much is necessary in a TAC list?

I currently have 2 units of D-Scythes in triple-shuricannon serpents, so while it's close-range damage they can still damage most units and vehicles. I have a wraithfighter too, and am considering a squad of fusion-troupe in a starweaver. Not sure if thats enough, or too much, or actually should be aimed at different targets entirely haha.

Other peoples choices so far have been to add Bright Lances to wave serpents, but I don't think that's good for me as they're already expensive targets with the wraiths on board.

2)
I know an Avatar is not currently the most optimal choice (but then neither is a lot of the cool options in armies right now haha) as it is a slow footslogging unit, but IF you were to run one, what would be the best couple of units to run with it as support?

Niiru wrote:
I don't want to derail the anti-tank discussion, as I think it's an important one, but I want to ask something else at the same time, so I'll put them both in this post so people can follow on with either/both

1) What are your anti-tank choices, and how much is necessary in a TAC list?

I currently have 2 units of D-Scythes in triple-shuricannon serpents, so while it's close-range damage they can still damage most units and vehicles. I have a wraithfighter too, and am considering a squad of fusion-troupe in a starweaver. Not sure if thats enough, or too much, or actually should be aimed at different targets entirely haha.

Other peoples choices so far have been to add Bright Lances to wave serpents, but I don't think that's good for me as they're already expensive targets with the wraiths on board.

2)
I know an Avatar is not currently the most optimal choice (but then neither is a lot of the cool options in armies right now haha) as it is a slow footslogging unit, but IF you were to run one, what would be the best couple of units to run with it as support?

I run the Avatar in nearly all my games. I rush up with two Wave Serpents with mounted Wraithguard and that Avatar moves and advances up with them. I have lost the Avatar once in 7 games and I give him the +1 attack Warlord trait. What makes him a bit sneaky for opponents is the rerool for assault range and rolling two dice and picking highest on damage. He makes it into assault and has done very well for me.

My army is a bit low in model count so I tend to play aggressive. However, I am yet to play against Astra Militarum or other high model count armies, which may impact the effectiveness of the Avatar.

 Sarigar wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I don't want to derail the anti-tank discussion, as I think it's an important one, but I want to ask something else at the same time, so I'll put them both in this post so people can follow on with either/both

1) What are your anti-tank choices, and how much is necessary in a TAC list?

I currently have 2 units of D-Scythes in triple-shuricannon serpents, so while it's close-range damage they can still damage most units and vehicles. I have a wraithfighter too, and am considering a squad of fusion-troupe in a starweaver. Not sure if thats enough, or too much, or actually should be aimed at different targets entirely haha.

Other peoples choices so far have been to add Bright Lances to wave serpents, but I don't think that's good for me as they're already expensive targets with the wraiths on board.

2)
I know an Avatar is not currently the most optimal choice (but then neither is a lot of the cool options in armies right now haha) as it is a slow footslogging unit, but IF you were to run one, what would be the best couple of units to run with it as support?

I run the Avatar in nearly all my games. I rush up with two Wave Serpents with mounted Wraithguard and that Avatar moves and advances up with them. I have lost the Avatar once in 7 games and I give him the +1 attack Warlord trait. What makes him a bit sneaky for opponents is the rerool for assault range and rolling two dice and picking highest on damage. He makes it into assault and has done very well for me.

My army is a bit low in model count so I tend to play aggressive. However, I am yet to play against Astra Militarum or other high model count armies, which may impact the effectiveness of the Avatar.

Interesting. I'm curious what else is in your army list.

I was thinking of running the Avatar with a guard of two Wraithlords with swords, if only because it would look cool on the table haha. Considered Shadow Spectres and Jetbikes too, as I figured the one thing that can bother an avatar is being tarpitted by assault troops..

Niiru wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I don't want to derail the anti-tank discussion, as I think it's an important one, but I want to ask something else at the same time, so I'll put them both in this post so people can follow on with either/both

1) What are your anti-tank choices, and how much is necessary in a TAC list?

I currently have 2 units of D-Scythes in triple-shuricannon serpents, so while it's close-range damage they can still damage most units and vehicles. I have a wraithfighter too, and am considering a squad of fusion-troupe in a starweaver. Not sure if thats enough, or too much, or actually should be aimed at different targets entirely haha.

Other peoples choices so far have been to add Bright Lances to wave serpents, but I don't think that's good for me as they're already expensive targets with the wraiths on board.


2) I know an Avatar is not currently the most optimal choice (but then neither is a lot of the cool options in armies right now haha) as it is a slow footslogging unit, but IF you were to run one, what would be the best couple of units to run with it as support?

I run the Avatar in nearly all my games. I rush up with two Wave Serpents with mounted Wraithguard and that Avatar moves and advances up with them. I have lost the Avatar once in 7 games and I give him the +1 attack Warlord trait. What makes him a bit sneaky for opponents is the rerool for assault range and rolling two dice and picking highest on damage. He makes it into assault and has done very well for me.

My army is a bit low in model count so I tend to play aggressive. However, I am yet to play against Astra Militarum or other high model count armies, which may impact the effectiveness of the Avatar.

Interesting. I'm curious what else is in your army list.

I was thinking of running the Avatar with a guard of two Wraithlords with swords, if only because it would look cool on the table haha. Considered Shadow Spectres and Jetbikes too, as I figured the one thing that can bother an avatar is being tarpitted by assault troops..

Today, roughly at 2000 points.

Outrider Detachment
Farseer
2 x 5 Wraithguard (D Scythes and Wraithcannons)
2 x 1 Wave Serpents
2 x 5 Warp Spiders
1 x 6 Shining Spears
1 x 1 Hemlock Wraithfighter

Heroes Detachment
1 Autarch with Wings
1 Avatar
1 Spirit Seer

I have not played against large model count armies, but I have units that can help clear out light infantry. The important piece for my game plan is to be aggressive and not get too distracted with my opponent`s, well, distraction units. Wave Serpents act as the blockers for the Avatar and Wave Serpents absorb substantial firepower.

I don't think the list is optimal, and I would like to make some more tweaks for better synergy. The Spiritseer is a bit disappointing. My Autarch was weak and may look at a new one on bike to accompany the Shining Spears.

I really like casting Doom and Fortune from the Farseer and utilizing Autarchs for a budget rate Guide.

Anti tank has been the Wraithguard, Hemlock Wraithfighter, and Avatar. The Serpents shooting has been minimally effective, but very durable to get the Wraithguard into position.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I don't really like lances on Serpents since I pretty much always want to be moving with them, so that's an immediate -25% efficiency. My opponent has to deal with the Serpents anyway since they're going to be right in his face charging everything.

5 points fixes that problem.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
I don't really like lances on Serpents since I pretty much always want to be moving with them, so that's an immediate -25% efficiency. My opponent has to deal with the Serpents anyway since they're going to be right in his face charging everything.

5 points fixes that problem.

I mean, sure, if you want to shoot a bright lance at some cheap infantry.

That is why scatter lasers were meant to be with CTM upgrade.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Niiru wrote:
What is the current top unit for anti-tank and anti-big things?

The three units I'm looking at are Reapers, War Walkers and Hornets, as they seem to be the ones that are the shooty gun platforms for eldar (also the actual gun platforms, but I'm not a fan of the models really, and they seem lackluster, but if you prefer them please say why )

War Walkers get a 5+ invulnerable, and so are pretty tough and can carry two heavy weapons. Being able to squadron means good use of guide etc too I guess.

Hornets are even tougher, and the -1 to hit is better than the 5+ invulnerable of walkers, but they only get it if they advance which mean no heavy weapons - shuriken cannons only. Which seems a waste. Nice models though.

Reapers. The most fragile, but highly accurate and so should be able to do a decent amount of damage. Not sure on the maths yet as to whether they do more or less damage than the other options for the points, but they do seem more fragile and more easily killed off.


So what do people get? I am finding that the only anti-tank in my list is D-Scythes, which are probably better off aimed at big infantry or even hordes than trying to get them in tank killing range..

Hemlocks are very good for killing tanks. Absent any enemy psykers, a Hemlock that can get close to a tank expects about 7 wounds on it, paying about 31 points per inflicted wound. This is better than a Dark Reaper, who pays about 41 points per inflicted wound (vs T7 3+). The Hemlock's major drawback is its range, but it's still very solid. Reapers tend to benefit more from various support units, however.

I do not like War Walkers or Hornets. Even War Walkers with bright lances are slightly less efficient than Hemlocks as long as they don't have Guide, and the Hemlocks are also great against lots of other targets while the War Walkers are far less durable.

I think the best ranged anti-tank Eldar unit other than Dark Reapers is the Crimson Hunter. They shoot about as well as War Walkers per point vs ground targets and are better than even Hemlocks against skimmers, and they're significantly more durable than War Walkers. However, they don't get much out of Guide since they have BS2+ and generally shoot at -1.

I think fire dragons in wave serpents are the answer to 95% of vehicle and monsters. They're even better as ynnari where shooting all your melta's at one target is rewarded with a soulburst.

I think the best answer is a mix of AT units though. I try to bring 1 short ranged anti-tank like fire dragons or wraithguard and 1 long ranged anti-tank like dark reapers or a crimson hunter. This makes sure that the dragons/wraithguard can take care of whatever threat the opponent pushes up the table, and if they hold their big stuff back the reapers/crimson hunter have the range to reach it.

When devising anti tank, do you account for psychic support or no? Guide has not been mandatory, but Fortune and Doom have been quite I important. Of note, I play Craftworld and have not yet played Ynarri.

Psychic support is a force multiplier rather than an actual anti tank option so not included when considering anti tank elements.

I also do not bother taking Guide but then I have 2 Wraithfighters, 1 unit of D-Scythe Wraithguard and 3 units of Shadow Spectres supported by Autarch, so Guide really isn't of much value to me.

 Sarigar wrote:
When devising anti tank, do you account for psychic support or no? Guide has not been mandatory, but Fortune and Doom have been quite I important. Of note, I play Craftworld and have not yet played Ynarri.

Psychic powers also become a bit tricky in Ynnari lists, as very few powers can interact usefully across the different factions. Playing pure craftworld means your farseer/warlocks can effect everyone, which makes them a bigger multiplier. I guess in a Ynnari force you would just get a psyker from the faction you have the most infantry/bikers from.

Guide is much less mandatory in this edition because autarchs provide the re-roll 1's aura. The most useful psychic power in the game right now is Doom. The wording of the power doesn't require any keywords to work so anything that shoots a target that has been doomed gets to re-roll to wound. Doom is really important for AT to me because even meltas are usually rolling on a 3+

Here's a draft of my planned Eldar list. Currently going Ynnari, though it's tempting to keep the harlequins as harlequins. Will depend on what the Craftworld codex gives us when it comes out!
I haven't split it up into detachments cos this is the first time I used battlescribe and I will play around with that later. I found it easier to quickly go back and forth with detachment option using Excel (well, Google Sheets, which is what I usually do my lists on!)

Should be a 2000 point list, but I am only on 1968 points and not sure what to add or drop at this point. I may end up collecting/building two seperate Eldar lists, if harlequins and wraiths don't synergise particularly well.


++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Aeldari - Ynnari) [103 PL, 1968pts] ++

+ HQ +

Shadowseer [7 PL, 134pts]: Shuriken Pistol

Troupe Master [4 PL, 74pts]: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Embrace

Warlock [3 PL, 44pts]: 3. Enhance/Drain, Singing Spear

Yvraine [7 PL, 132pts]: Ancestors' Grace, Word of the Phoenix

+ Troops +

Troupe [7 PL, 150pts]
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Embrace
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Embrace
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Embrace
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Embrace
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Embrace

Troupe [7 PL, 150pts]
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Embrace
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Embrace
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Embrace
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Embrace
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Embrace

+ Elites +

Shadow Spectres [10 PL, 119pts]
. 4x Shadow Spectre: 4x Prism Rifle
. Shadow Spectre Exarch: Prism Rifle

Wraithblades [10 PL, 175pts]: Ghostswords, 5x Wraithblade

Wraithguard [10 PL, 225pts]: D-scythe, 5x Wraithguard

+ Flyer +

Hemlock Wraithfighter [10 PL, 221pts]: 1. Conceal/Reveal, Spirit Stones

+ Dedicated Transport +

Starweaver [5 PL, 99pts]: 2x Shuriken Cannon

Starweaver [5 PL, 99pts]: 2x Shuriken Cannon

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 173pts]: Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Star Engines, Twin Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 173pts]: Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Star Engines, Twin Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines

++ Total: [103 PL, 1968pts] ++

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wave Serpent 1 = Warlock, Wraithblades
Wave Serpent 2 = Yvraine, Wraithguard
Starweaver 1 = Shadowseer, Troupe
Starweaver 2 = Troupe Master, Troupe

Spectres and Wraithfighter Fly up the board along with the transports. Shame that the Wraithfighter conceal doesn't help the wave serpents though, wondering if it's a waste in this list as there's no jetbikes for it to conceal...

Hemlock Wraithfighter is 211 points, the Spirit Stones aren't a piece of wargear on that model, but rather listed under abilities. You don't pay for them. The only wargear it has are the two heavy d-scythes.

 Cream Tea wrote:
Hemlock Wraithfighter is 211 points, the Spirit Stones aren't a piece of wargear on that model, but rather listed under abilities. You don't pay for them. The only wargear it has are the two heavy d-scythes.

Ahh ok, see I had it down as 211 originally, but battlescribe had it as 221 so I thought I was wrong lol. Turns out I was right. I'll look into correcting it.

Why no Starweavers and why 7man Troupe units? Footslogging isnt that good with quins in 8th.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Why no Starweavers and why 7man Troupe units? Footslogging isnt that good with quins in 8th.

Are we looking at the same list? Those are 5 man units, and they're riding Starweavers. 7 is the Power Level value.

I'm pretty sure you do pay for the Spirit Stones. I actually made the mistake of not paying for them until it was pointed out to me on these forums. spirit Stones may be listed in the abilities but it is an upgrade payable just like any other you choose or have to take.

With regards the list, you Warlock really isn't doing much here. I would strongly urge upgrading him to a Farseer who is way better and brings Doom which is pretty clutch. You just need to free up 37 points after dropping the Warlock, giving your under already. I'd suggest dropping the 2 Star Engines. They aren't essential and easy to free up here. After that all you have to do is drop one Fusion Pistol from each of the 2 Troupe squads. The benefit of Doom will easily offset the slight reduction in Fusion shots. I know you have Troupe Masters but Doom benefits your whole army and from 24".

Farseer then will also allow you a further proper Smite or use of either Guide or Fortune.

yup you pay for the stones....221.

Same with the Autarch shield....listed as ability but still needs costed in/added

The imperium 1 FAQ clarifies that a Company champion must pay for its combat shield. The issue for the champion is the same: the shield is listed as an ability, while it also exists as a piece of wargear with an associated cost. It also says that in all similar instances, you have to pay the points.
That's why most people agree that Hemlocks have to pay for stones, and Autarchs for shields. But some people argue that a ruling in the Imperium 1 FAQ doesn't apply to the Xenos 1 FAQ.

Precedence anyone? Lol.

Be silly to argue that the exact same situation does not apply just because the Index name is not referenced in the FAQ.

 admironheart wrote:
yup you pay for the stones....221.

Same with the Autarch shield....listed as ability but still needs costed in/added

Why do I have to pay for them? I don't see why I have any need to. They're abilities in the profile so why take eqiupment doing the same thing?