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 sennacherib wrote:
Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.

Take a step back and wait for the meta to settle. At this point you really cannot know what is balanced and what is not. And Rangers surely needed a points reduction.

My only concern is the prevalence of infiltrate stratagems that are super-broken. But they are not more broken with Eldar than with Alpha Legion or Imperium Soup.

The warlord traits and relics all seem pretty bad. I feel like by far the best warlord trait is the sniper autarch, but only if you're using the old autarch rules so that he can have like a reaper launcher and an avenger catapult.

I'm not sure that there's a single relic worth being excited about. 12" move and Fly seems like the default choice just to save some points on a bike or wings for a character. There's one that increases the number of shots that a "shuriken pistol or shuriken catapult" has by 2. I'm not sure that any characters actually have shuriken catapults; if it applies to avenger catapults and twin catapults then maybe that's worthwhile on the sniper Autarch I mentioned earlier.

Long-term it seems to me that you will basically always want a Harlequin, Dark Eldar, or Ynnari warlord because one of them will almost certainly have far better traits and relics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fafnir wrote:
So, I've not ever really played Eldar, but the Bonesinger and FW Avatar have been on my bucket list for nearly a decade at this point, and the new codex, along with the new Bonesinger availability have me really considering getting on this Xenos scum train.

With that in mind, and with a few grains of salt since we haven't seen too much going on about him quite yet, my primary interest in Eldar would be the potential to build a list around the Avatar. Based on what we know so far, what are peoples' thoughts on the best units to run with him as the core of an army with the intent of being at least semi-competitive? I'm personally a fan of lower model counts myself, but I'm open to any ideas for the sake of discussion.

Due to the limitations the Avatar faces in mobility due to not being able to ride in a transport, I feel slightly hesitant about wraithblades as an escort, since their low mobility would serve to leave him vulnerable. Perhaps some Shadow Spectres at -2 using the jump-shoot-jump stratagem could serve as a solid screen during the turn or two it takes him to reach his destination? Of course, they don't do much to synergize with the Avatar's offense, meaning he'd still need some solid linebreaking offense.

Shadow Spectres are of course very strong. I think another great option with an Avatar would be Shining Spears. They're 31 points each now for T4 W2 3+/4++, and the Protect power makes them 2+/3++. Even without Protect they're a very durable unit against everything except AP-1.

Obviously you're using Alatoic in order to stay as durable as possible as you move up the board. Note that there's a 2 CP stratagem which makes Spectres basically untouchable at range, since they'd be at -3 to hit past 12". You could stack this with Conceal for -4.

I love shining spears but the amount of d2 weapons out there that just vape them make me reluctant to run them. Hopefully protect and alaitoc trait will help them, but running them without strength from death makes me even more reluctant to take them.
Hopefully the point discount will help that tho, where if they do get targeted first like mine do the enemy at least has to give up a fair amount of shooting to do it, and then it’s only a small points investment lost.

300pts(ish) + 3 Chapter points
Webway Strike Strategium
10x Howling Banshees
10x Howling Banshees

+3 to charge range
No overwatch
Accompanying exarch = -1 to hit for enemy
Either Saim Hann or command point re–rolls for added insurance on the charge range.

While I have not played a single game of 8th yet, his seems like a reliable way to get them into combat with tanks or chaff units and disrupt the lines of the enemy even if they are not the most deadly models around. They should easily make the charge and should be able to wrap around and capture quite a few models, either killing the enemy or forcing them to fall back and not shoot. If they are shot in return once the units they have assaulted fall back, then they take the pressure off your other units as you have the units they assaulted plus the units that chose to shoot at you occupied.

Thoughts? Or are the equivalent points of dire avengers/guardians/wraithguard better?

Wyldcarde wrote:
I love shining spears but the amount of d2 weapons out there that just vape them make me reluctant to run them. Hopefully protect and alaitoc trait will help them, but running them without strength from death makes me even more reluctant to take them.
Hopefully the point discount will help that tho, where if they do get targeted first like mine do the enemy at least has to give up a fair amount of shooting to do it, and then it’s only a small points investment lost.

The 4++ makes this not too bad even without Protect. Like, overcharged plasma does more points' worth of damage to most vehicles (other than Wave Serpents) than to Spears. They're also a prime target for Fortune. And they hit harder than basically anything else in the codex. Their shoot-and-charge has more damage output per point than anything else I've looked at so far against practically everything.

It's heavy bolters that you really need to watch out for, although even here they're still more durable than Dire Avengers outside of cover.

I guess also if you're just really concerned about what happens if they start on the table and your opponent gets first turn, you could instead deep strike them for 1 CP. You then have a pretty hard charge to make, although the Warlock power that lets a unit move presumably helps with that (I'm not sure if there was ever an official ruling on warptime and deep strike).

Yeah, the 4++ helps. And I definitely think they are good. I’m just getting to the point where it seems to make sense to stick with single wound stuff to not give those d2 guns good targets.
Deep striking them could be valid however you miss the shooting of the lances which isn’t necessarily a big deal. Will be a nice combo with quicken tho if it does work.
That being said I’d rather just deep strike shadow spectres into enemy flanks.

 Lurker wrote:
300pts(ish) + 3 Chapter points
Webway Strike Strategium
10x Howling Banshees
10x Howling Banshees

+3 to charge range
No overwatch
Accompanying exarch = -1 to hit for enemy
Either Saim Hann or command point re–rolls for added insurance on the charge range.

While I have not played a single game of 8th yet, his seems like a reliable way to get them into combat with tanks or chaff units and disrupt the lines of the enemy even if they are not the most deadly models around. They should easily make the charge and should be able to wrap around and capture quite a few models, either killing the enemy or forcing them to fall back and not shoot. If they are shot in return once the units they have assaulted fall back, then they take the pressure off your other units as you have the units they assaulted plus the units that chose to shoot at you occupied.

Thoughts? Or are the equivalent points of dire avengers/guardians/wraithguard better?

Something I had also considered, they essentially prevent the enemies main shooting units from shooting for a phase, just bring them out one at a time. That's 2 turns their main units aren't shooting while you destroy their other key units with your own a shooting units.

Iyanden Banshees may be something to consider, means if they are counter charged the enemy needs to kill practically all of them to stop them threatening something else next turn (and the exarch still gives -1 to hit in combat).

I'm not quite sure about DS with Shadow Spectres. Obvious advantage is only giving enemy a single turn of shooting before they get within flamer range, but down side being that the DS of over 9" means they will come in and not be able to flame grill their target, which is where they perform best.

With regards Ynarri, do we know for certain yet how the Ynarri rules combine with Craftworld? I.e can we still take a detachment of Ynarri with Ynarri Warlord and then run 1-2 detachments of Craftworld for the SfD benefit? It would fit in the fluff to be able to do so. Only thing that would stop it is if the Codex explicitly says you can't...

Spectres shoot plenty good in single fire mode. Will wreck meq and still perform nicely against geq (especially with a bit of psychic backup). I would be running them from an alaitoc point of view where you can drop them at 16ish in cover to minimise return fire. Plus warp spiders and swooping hawks can drop with them for a nasty ball of death. The change to swooping hawks at assault 4 and cheaper make them a super tempting option for geq.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah also keen to work out about ynnari interaction. Will come down to wording but hopefully the option is there to combine. At least craftworld seems viable on their own tho.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Spectres shoot plenty good in single fire mode. Will wreck meq and still perform nicely against geq (especially with a bit of psychic backup). I would be running them from an alaitoc point of view where you can drop them at 16ish in cover to minimise return fire. Plus warp spiders and swooping hawks can drop with them for a nasty ball of death. The change to swooping hawks at assault 4 and cheaper make them a super tempting option for geq.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah also keen to work out about ynnari interaction. Will come down to wording but hopefully the option is there to combine. At least craftworld seems viable on their own tho.

I've been using a min squad of Hawks for a few games and they have worked out how I needed them to. Start in reserve, drop in turn 3 out of LOS. Turn 4 go back into reserve. Turn 5 land again out of LOS on an objective and/or getting me Linebreaker. Now that they are cheaper, it's even better. It gives me a ton of flexibility to ensure they get me the points I'm going after with them. We also play Eternal War missions and not Maelstrom, which could effect this tactic.

 Sarigar wrote:

Wyldcarde wrote:
Spectres shoot plenty good in single fire mode. Will wreck meq and still perform nicely against geq (especially with a bit of psychic backup). I would be running them from an alaitoc point of view where you can drop them at 16ish in cover to minimise return fire. Plus warp spiders and swooping hawks can drop with them for a nasty ball of death. The change to swooping hawks at assault 4 and cheaper make them a super tempting option for geq.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah also keen to work out about ynnari interaction. Will come down to wording but hopefully the option is there to combine. At least craftworld seems viable on their own tho.

I've been using a min squad of Hawks for a few games and they have worked out how I needed them to. Start in reserve, drop in turn 3 out of LOS. Turn 4 go back into reserve. Turn 5 land again out of LOS on an objective and/or getting me Linebreaker. Now that they are cheaper, it's even better. It gives me a ton of flexibility to ensure they get me the points I'm going after with them. We also play Eternal War missions and not Maelstrom, which could effect this tactic.

I think anyone who doesnt take a hard look at swooping hawks now is missing out. They are cheaper than they have ever been, and 40 shots out of a squad with Doom is nothing to sneeze at vs horde. They will hurt marines too with Doom.

Drake003 wrote:
With regards Ynarri, do we know for certain yet how the Ynarri rules combine with Craftworld? I.e can we still take a detachment of Ynarri with Ynarri Warlord and then run 1-2 detachments of Craftworld for the SfD benefit? It would fit in the fluff to be able to do so. Only thing that would stop it is if the Codex explicitly says you can't...

There is a paragraph that states fielding a single Ynnari model (this obviously include CW units given the Ynnari keyword) stops being a CW detachment for bennefiting from a Craftworld trait, warlord traits or relics. Stratagems are not explicitly mentioned, but it would be a logical assumption they would also lose access to them, as they are labeled as Craftworlds stratagems.
I'm going to use the Triumvirate models with CWE count as rules unless a FAQ give us the CW stratagems.

Thinking about running 2 Wraithlords with 2x ShuriCannon and Ghost Glaive, and putting an Avatar behind them. Advance them up a flank and have 2 Dire Avenger units deepstriking turn 2 firing at doomed targets, 2 Farseers with some squads in serpents backing them up with fortune, havent decided what squads though. 5 or 6 man Ranger squad to fill out troops and pick off weak targets. Think this might work. Used to run Avengers in serpents but why bother when they deepstrike 9" away for 3 CP?

 DanielFM wrote:

Drake003 wrote:
With regards Ynarri, do we know for certain yet how the Ynarri rules combine with Craftworld? I.e can we still take a detachment of Ynarri with Ynarri Warlord and then run 1-2 detachments of Craftworld for the SfD benefit? It would fit in the fluff to be able to do so. Only thing that would stop it is if the Codex explicitly says you can't...

There is a paragraph that states fielding a single Ynnari model (this obviously include CW units given the Ynnari keyword) stops being a CW detachment for bennefiting from a Craftworld trait, warlord traits or relics. Stratagems are not explicitly mentioned, but it would be a logical assumption they would also lose access to them, as they are labeled as Craftworlds stratagems.
I'm going to use the Triumvirate models with CWE count as rules unless a FAQ give us the CW stratagems.

Yes a ynnari model in a craftworld detachment is likely to make the detachment lose craftworld.
But, the thinking is taking a ynnari hq in a patrol detachment as warlord, then taking craftworld detachments along with it. With ynnari model as warlord then that should unlock strength from death, but will depend on the wording.

Wyldcarde wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:

Drake003 wrote:
With regards Ynarri, do we know for certain yet how the Ynarri rules combine with Craftworld? I.e can we still take a detachment of Ynarri with Ynarri Warlord and then run 1-2 detachments of Craftworld for the SfD benefit? It would fit in the fluff to be able to do so. Only thing that would stop it is if the Codex explicitly says you can't...

There is a paragraph that states fielding a single Ynnari model (this obviously include CW units given the Ynnari keyword) stops being a CW detachment for bennefiting from a Craftworld trait, warlord traits or relics. Stratagems are not explicitly mentioned, but it would be a logical assumption they would also lose access to them, as they are labeled as Craftworlds stratagems.
I'm going to use the Triumvirate models with CWE count as rules unless a FAQ give us the CW stratagems.

Yes a ynnari model in a craftworld detachment is likely to make the detachment lose craftworld.
But, the thinking is taking a ynnari hq in a patrol detachment as warlord, then taking craftworld detachments along with it. With ynnari model as warlord then that should unlock strength from death, but will depend on the wording.

You would get strength from death, but only on your Ynnari units. A unit in a Craftworld Detachment can't be Ynnari and so would always still have Battle Focus instead.

MaLiKAR wrote:
Could someone confirm the costs for warlocks?

It would also be amazing to have a more detailed understanding of their power generation as a conclave (lots of different iterations, mainly people calling them rubbish)

As all of the videos seem unclear. As I understand they are cheaper in a conclave than as individuals? This is my understanding thus far:

Warlock: 35pts
Warlock sky runner: 65pts

Warlock conclave: 30pts per model minimum 2
Warlock skyrunner conclave: 60ptd per model minimum 2

Singing spear: 4pts

So a large conclave of 10 with singing spears = 640 pts?

Totally understand they're not optimum. Would just like to understand for fun games.

Is this true? Warlocks actually got -increased- in points to 35 each? What are GW smoking that they thought the old Warlocks were so good they required a nerf??! They were already completely pointless compared to a spiritseer, and now that the spiritseer is 20 points cheaper there's zero point to a warlock on foot.

And Skyrunner Warlocks only being 5 points cheaper than before doesn't really help them much either, they're still pretty expensive. 50 points for a skyrunner might have been acceptable, maybe.

And GW thought the conclaves were just right at their old points values... someone in the office must be seriously high right now.

They on balance cost a drop in points of 2. They were 30 plus compulsory weapon which you had to pay for.

Now Witchblade is free and Spear is 11 points less than it was before.

I believe Warlocks are 30, singing spear is 5. Not too bad actually. I will be using 2 Warlocks in my list in serpents maybe, give enemy squads -1 to save or my aspect squads +1 to save.

Dionysodorus wrote:
.
You would get strength from death, but only on your Ynnari units. A unit in a Craftworld Detachment can't be Ynnari and so would always still have Battle Focus instead.

But being Ynarri doesn't replace being Craftworld, you just can't have a non Craftworld unit in a Craftworld Detachment.

So take a Ynarri Patrol Detachment with Ynarri HQ, then take Craftworld Detachment which should therefore keep its Craftworld trait. But because it is in same army (not Detachment) all units in the Craftworld Detachment would gain the Ynarri key word in addition to their Craftworld key word. So it should stack, unless the Codex specifically stated somewhere that it does not.

That was my question. Is there a specific rule that says Craftworld units cannot gain the Ynarri key word and still keep Craftworld key word and trait?

Biel-Tan is a good candidate for taking the Avatar. The Avatar should be more than happy to footslog while some Banshees take a wave serpent and ride along in front so he can't be targeted. Once they get out you can use the Biel-Tan stratagem to guarantee they make it into combat. They'll be re-rolling hits and if you sprinkle in some psychic support they'll mince anything they come up against.

Drake003 wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
.
You would get strength from death, but only on your Ynnari units. A unit in a Craftworld Detachment can't be Ynnari and so would always still have Battle Focus instead.

But being Ynarri doesn't replace being Craftworld, you just can't have a non Craftworld unit in a Craftworld Detachment.

So take a Ynarri Patrol Detachment with Ynarri HQ, then take Craftworld Detachment which should therefore keep its Craftworld trait. But because it is in same army (not Detachment) all units in the Craftworld Detachment would gain the Ynarri key word in addition to their Craftworld key word. So it should stack, unless the Codex specifically stated somewhere that it does not.

That was my question. Is there a specific rule that says Craftworld units cannot gain the Ynarri key word and still keep Craftworld key word and trait?

Yes, there is such a rule. If a detachment has a Ynnari unit in it then it is no longer a Craftworld Detachment. But the units could still have the <Craftworld> keyword -- every unit in the detachment could be <Craftworld> even.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
I believe Warlocks are 30, singing spear is 5. Not too bad actually. I will be using 2 Warlocks in my list in serpents maybe, give enemy squads -1 to save or my aspect squads +1 to save.

I did momentarily forget the singing spear drop in points... and it is the better weapon I think, with the strong 12" shot.

Still tempted by a seer council. Even if it's not actually going to be any good for the points.

I guess 2 farseers + 3 warlocks is better than 4 warlocks.

Maybe 1 Farseer, 1 Autarch, 3 warlocks. If the Autarch charges first with a banshee mask, no overwatch.

It's weird that GW are selling a "Seer Council" box set with 2 farseers and 3 warlocks, when only the warlocks can actually group into a single unit. Might even be better to ignore the conclave rule and just have single warlocks in formation around the farseer. They'd all be characters then, so a single windrider squad (or anything infiltrating) can stop the enemy even shooting at them.

Niiru wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:
I believe Warlocks are 30, singing spear is 5. Not too bad actually. I will be using 2 Warlocks in my list in serpents maybe, give enemy squads -1 to save or my aspect squads +1 to save.

I did momentarily forget the singing spear drop in points... and it is the better weapon I think, with the strong 12" shot.

Still tempted by a seer council. Even if it's not actually going to be any good for the points.

I guess 2 farseers + 3 warlocks is better than 4 warlocks.

Maybe 1 Farseer, 1 Autarch, 3 warlocks. If the Autarch charges first with a banshee mask, no overwatch.

It's weird that GW are selling a "Seer Council" box set with 2 farseers and 3 warlocks, when only the warlocks can actually group into a single unit. Might even be better to ignore the conclave rule and just have single warlocks in formation around the farseer. They'd all be characters then, so a single windrider squad (or anything infiltrating) can stop the enemy even shooting at them.

Nothing wrong with using 2 Farseers, I love double fortune and doom every turn ; ) 105 points too, Farseers are cheap now.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:
I believe Warlocks are 30, singing spear is 5. Not too bad actually. I will be using 2 Warlocks in my list in serpents maybe, give enemy squads -1 to save or my aspect squads +1 to save.

I did momentarily forget the singing spear drop in points... and it is the better weapon I think, with the strong 12" shot.

Still tempted by a seer council. Even if it's not actually going to be any good for the points.

I guess 2 farseers + 3 warlocks is better than 4 warlocks.

Maybe 1 Farseer, 1 Autarch, 3 warlocks. If the Autarch charges first with a banshee mask, no overwatch.

It's weird that GW are selling a "Seer Council" box set with 2 farseers and 3 warlocks, when only the warlocks can actually group into a single unit. Might even be better to ignore the conclave rule and just have single warlocks in formation around the farseer. They'd all be characters then, so a single windrider squad (or anything infiltrating) can stop the enemy even shooting at them.

Nothing wrong with using 2 Farseers, I love double fortune and doom every turn ; ) 105 points too, Farseers are cheap now.

129pts for a Farseer Skyrunner with Singing Spear, I think. Though used to be 168pts so it's still 39 points cheaper. Thats a whole warlock.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

Maybe 1 Farseer, 1 Autarch, 3 warlocks. If the Autarch charges first with a banshee mask, no overwatch.

I dont think any Codex Autarchs have Banshee Masks unfortunately. Only the Index ones and i don't know if the Index units would gain the updated Banshee Mask effect.

 DivineVisitor wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:

Maybe 1 Farseer, 1 Autarch, 3 warlocks. If the Autarch charges first with a banshee mask, no overwatch.

I dont think any Codex Autarchs have Banshee Masks unfortunately.

Oh really? I'd assumed they were keeping the masks and mandiblasters. If they get cut down to only being allowed shuriken pistols and power swords, I'm not sure on the point of them... they didn't get a points drop, and their only reason for existing becomes their reroll of 1's to hit. Which is good and all, but is it 100 points good?

Another Farseer might be a better option than Autarchs. Or even a warlock jetbiker.

Agreed with a lot of the warlock points but still no answer to the most important thing: how do their powers generate in a conclave.

I get that destructor is 1 MW - D3 - D6. The important thing is does the unit cast as one? If so how many spells can it cast? If it isn't at least one spell per warlock they are genuinely the lamest council ever conceived.

Its so odd to see the individual warlocks priced just 5pts more than conclave given the power of being a character vs being a unit.

Really keen to know if anyone has any insight.

MaLiKAR wrote:
Agreed with a lot of the warlock points but still no answer to the most important thing: how do their powers generate in a conclave.

I get that destructor is 1 MW - D3 - D6. The important thing is does the unit cast as one? If so how many spells can it cast? If it isn't at least one spell per warlock they are genuinely the lamest council ever conceived.

Its so odd to see the individual warlocks priced just 5pts more than conclave given the power of being a character vs being a unit.

Really keen to know if anyone has any insight.

Their rule in the index said that if there was 1-3 warlocks they cast one power, 4-6 warlocks is two powers, and 7-10 warlocks is 3 powers. The unit knows Smite plus 2 powers from Runes of Battle. Doesn't seem to be anything stopping you from smiting three times with the one 10-warlock unit, but it's not very efficient compared to other army's options. However, that 10-warlock unit will be doing D6 wounds with each smite guaranteed, so maybe that averages out to being ok. 7 warlocks is probably the most you'd ever use in a unit, if not more like 4 or 5.

Single Warlocks are better because they're characters, and 5 warlocks get 5 smites instead of just 2. But -
- 4 single Warlocks do 4 smites for 1 wound each, so max of 4 mortal wounds.
- conclave of 4 Warlocks do 2 smites, for D3 wounds each, so max of 6 mortal wounds (but average of 3/4)

The conclave has less change of getting perils because of less casts. So less chance of murdering itself, as a perils is pretty much guaranteed to kill a warlock.

It's a bit of a balancing act. But if you spend 10 points more per model, you get -

- 4 single spiritseers. 4 smites, that could do 1 or D3 or D6 wounds each depending on rolls. Average would be around 6 mortal wounds. And you get twice the wounds, so they'll live longer and die from perils much less.

EDIT- Just to add, all the Warlock smites are only 9", even in full size conclaves. Spiritseer is always 18". Big difference by itself.

Wonder how it'll all turn out. Warlocks probably only become worth taking if you use them on jetbikes, otherwise they're just inferior Spiritseers.

Niiru wrote:

MaLiKAR wrote:
Agreed with a lot of the warlock points but still no answer to the most important thing: how do their powers generate in a conclave.

I get that destructor is 1 MW - D3 - D6. The important thing is does the unit cast as one? If so how many spells can it cast? If it isn't at least one spell per warlock they are genuinely the lamest council ever conceived.

Its so odd to see the individual warlocks priced just 5pts more than conclave given the power of being a character vs being a unit.

Really keen to know if anyone has any insight.

Their rule in the index said that if there was 1-3 warlocks they cast one power, 4-6 warlocks is two powers, and 7-10 warlocks is 3 powers. The unit knows Smite plus 2 powers from Runes of Battle. Doesn't seem to be anything stopping you from smiting three times with the one 10-warlock unit, but it's not very efficient compared to other army's options. However, that 10-warlock unit will be doing D6 wounds with each smite guaranteed, so maybe that averages out to being ok. 7 warlocks is probably the most you'd ever use in a unit, if not more like 4 or 5.

Single Warlocks are better because they're characters, and 5 warlocks get 5 smites instead of just 2. But -
- 4 single Warlocks do 4 smites for 1 wound each, so max of 4 mortal wounds.
- conclave of 4 Warlocks do 2 smites, for D3 wounds each, so max of 6 mortal wounds (but average of 3/4)

The conclave has less change of getting perils because of less casts. So less chance of murdering itself, as a perils is pretty much guaranteed to kill a warlock.

It's a bit of a balancing act. But if you spend 10 points more per model, you get -

- 4 single spiritseers. 4 smites, that could do 1 or D3 or D6 wounds each depending on rolls. Average would be around 6 mortal wounds. And you get twice the wounds, so they'll live longer and die from perils much less.

EDIT- Just to add, all the Warlock smites are only 9", even in full size conclaves. Spiritseer is always 18". Big difference by itself.

Wonder how it'll all turn out. Warlocks probably only become worth taking if you use them on jetbikes, otherwise they're just inferior Spiritseers.

Thanks for that. Is it the same in the new codex as the index? I should probably contextualise that I would love to run 10 on bikes like the councils of old. They don't need to be broken but just functional.

Honestly my preoccupation is not with smite at all. Its with all the other powers actually. Taking 10 warlocks to cast 3 powers with no significant buff would be super frustrating. I just don't see whats the incentive to take the conclave over individuals other than the 5 pts difference.

MaLiKAR wrote:

Niiru wrote:

MaLiKAR wrote:
Agreed with a lot of the warlock points but still no answer to the most important thing: how do their powers generate in a conclave.

I get that destructor is 1 MW - D3 - D6. The important thing is does the unit cast as one? If so how many spells can it cast? If it isn't at least one spell per warlock they are genuinely the lamest council ever conceived.

Its so odd to see the individual warlocks priced just 5pts more than conclave given the power of being a character vs being a unit.

Really keen to know if anyone has any insight.

Their rule in the index said that if there was 1-3 warlocks they cast one power, 4-6 warlocks is two powers, and 7-10 warlocks is 3 powers. The unit knows Smite plus 2 powers from Runes of Battle. Doesn't seem to be anything stopping you from smiting three times with the one 10-warlock unit, but it's not very efficient compared to other army's options. However, that 10-warlock unit will be doing D6 wounds with each smite guaranteed, so maybe that averages out to being ok. 7 warlocks is probably the most you'd ever use in a unit, if not more like 4 or 5.

Single Warlocks are better because they're characters, and 5 warlocks get 5 smites instead of just 2. But -
- 4 single Warlocks do 4 smites for 1 wound each, so max of 4 mortal wounds.
- conclave of 4 Warlocks do 2 smites, for D3 wounds each, so max of 6 mortal wounds (but average of 3/4)

The conclave has less change of getting perils because of less casts. So less chance of murdering itself, as a perils is pretty much guaranteed to kill a warlock.

It's a bit of a balancing act. But if you spend 10 points more per model, you get -

- 4 single spiritseers. 4 smites, that could do 1 or D3 or D6 wounds each depending on rolls. Average would be around 6 mortal wounds. And you get twice the wounds, so they'll live longer and die from perils much less.

EDIT- Just to add, all the Warlock smites are only 9", even in full size conclaves. Spiritseer is always 18". Big difference by itself.

Wonder how it'll all turn out. Warlocks probably only become worth taking if you use them on jetbikes, otherwise they're just inferior Spiritseers.

Thanks for that. Is it the same in the new codex as the index? I should probably contextualise that I would love to run 10 on bikes like the councils of old. They don't need to be broken but just functional.

Honestly my preoccupation is not with smite at all. Its with all the other powers actually. Taking 10 warlocks to cast 3 powers with no significant buff would be super frustrating. I just don't see whats the incentive to take the conclave over individuals other than the 5 pts difference.

Well 10 warlocks could cast ... well, with the new Runes of Battle powers, they could actually cast 10 different powers a turn, without a single smite. Don't know if there's actually 10 useful powers in there though.

I also would love to run a seer council, but I'd probably have 1 or 2 farseers in there, with maybe 4 or 5 warlocks, backed up with some wind riders or shining spears. Cheaper, and probably more effective/efficient overall. An Autarch for re-rollings 1's for all those jetbike catupults and singing spears might not be bad either.

Edit: Also, I think it's the same in the Codex as the Index, I haven't seen anything that's changed.