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A quick question regarding modifiers. In the rulebook it says modifiers are cumulative. If I have a unit attacking a Culexus, which makes my WS and BS count as 6+, does that mean that a model that moved and fired a heavy weapon cannot hit the Culexus? Similarly; if I cast a psychic power on the unit that modifies the hit roll by -1, can they not hit the Culexus?

My friend took an army of only Characters (Gulliman etc.), put a Culexus up front and cast those types of powers (-1 to hit) on key enemy shooting units. That made his army virtually immune to shooting, for as long as the powers went off, letting them advance up the field unharmed. Is that legal in 8th? Was I swindled?

I know 7th had a rule about set value modifiers, but I don't see that in 8th, or in the Culexus description. The rulebook does make the point in relation to Overwatch, though. Any thoughts?

Best,
Samii.

I think it's probably uncontroversial that, if you just have a unit that has a natural WS of 6+ (like many vehicles), then if you gave that unit -1 to hit, it would always miss. You can't get a 6.

I figure the Culexus works the same way. The attack is resolved as if the attacking unit has a skill of 6+. It's just like it says WS 6+ and BS 6+ on their profile.

Note that, in matched play, an army can only try to cast a particular psychic power once per turn (p215: "Psychic Focus"). I don't know if there are multiple Imperial disciplines with a similar power.

But yes, the Culexus is really tough. Less effective against already-inaccurate units or flamer-type weapons that hit automatically, though.

Yes, there are two RE Space Wolves and Dark Angels. Also, if you are falling back at all (as I was) and using Heavy Weapons and moving, it basically became impossible to shoot his army from turn 1.

Samii wrote:
A quick question regarding modifiers. In the rulebook it says modifiers are cumulative. If I have a unit attacking a Culexus, which makes my WS and BS count as 6+, does that mean that a model that moved and fired a heavy weapon cannot hit the Culexus? Similarly; if I cast a psychic power on the unit that modifies the hit roll by -1, can they not hit the Culexus?

My friend took an army of only Characters (Gulliman etc.), put a Culexus up front and cast those types of powers (-1 to hit) on key enemy shooting units. That made his army virtually immune to shooting, for as long as the powers went off, letting them advance up the field unharmed. Is that legal in 8th? Was I swindled?

I know 7th had a rule about set value modifiers, but I don't see that in 8th, or in the Culexus description. The rulebook does make the point in relation to Overwatch, though. Any thoughts?

Best,
Samii.

No, Characters do NOT restrict other Characters from being attacked only regular units, and tell your opponent to stop being an donkey-cave.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

No, Characters do NOT restrict other Characters from being attacked only regular units, and tell your opponent to stop being an donkey-cave.

Is there a reference for this or did you just invent a new rule for us?

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

No, Characters do NOT restrict other Characters from being attacked only regular units, and tell your opponent to stop being an donkey-cave.

Is there a reference for this or did you just invent a new rule for us?

No there is not. A character with less than 10 wounds cannot be targeted unless it is the closest unit. It does work that way.

Just to clarify; by moving the Culexus in front of the other characters, it became impossible to shoot them and the units that would then try to shoot the Culexus (being the closest Character) would need 7+, hence completely nullifying my shooting over turns 1 and 2. I was also trying to move backwards in order to avoid getting charged, as a result I was consistently needing 7+ to hit the Culexus, from all my units. It seemed unfair to me that an army should have the ability to completely nullify shooting, particulalrly one that was so Hero-heavy.

Out of curiosity, what was the list you took?

Interesting combo as the culexus is becomes the closest unit. Which units giving the minus one? Movmg your army to the side can make it so that the culexus is no longer the closest. His army doesn't even have to be all characters, could have some being deep strikers but just use the character combo on the board.

Some Eldar @50 Power

Samii wrote:
Some Eldar @50 Power

More specific? Are we talking wraith constructs, jetbike army, infantry based, etc.?

Mostly jetbikes and infantry, @ 1000 pts going by 7th.

Samii wrote:
Mostly jetbikes and infantry, @ 1000 pts going by 7th.

Could you not use your jetbikes to jump around his culexus and tear a different character a new hole?

(I know what your opponant did was a dick move but their must be some kind of counter)

I could have played it smarter, I was trying to avoid getting charged, so was backing up a lot.

Samii wrote:
I could have played it smarter, I was trying to avoid getting charged, so was backing up a lot.

If I was in your position I'd have charged the Culexus with something tough or with a lot of numbers, that way he is no longer classed as the closest unit so you can go about dealing with his other units without the bs of not being able to hit them.

confused....I am only going by the rules as the OP stated.

Lets say the Eldar forces had Dark Reapers. No modifiers work vs the Inescapable Accuracy. So how the OP worded the Cullexus...the DR with 3+ AND ignoring modifiers would now STILLL need 6+ as that is a REPLACEMENT to their BS.

So My question is the Cullexus ability of changing WS to 6+ a true REPLACEMENT that ignores modifiers or does it cause REplacement and then modifiers??

 admironheart wrote:
confused....I am only going by the rules as the OP stated.

Lets say the Eldar forces had Dark Reapers. No modifiers work vs the Inescapable Accuracy. So how the OP worded the Cullexus...the DR with 3+ AND ignoring modifiers would now STILLL need 6+ as that is a REPLACEMENT to their BS.

So My question is the Cullexus ability of changing WS to 6+ a true REPLACEMENT that ignores modifiers or does it cause REplacement and then modifiers??

It is before modifiers because it changes your ballistic skill as apposed to changing the dice rolls, this allows someones ballistic skill to become 6+ and then a -1 modifier to prevent them from hitting.

 admironheart wrote:
confused....I am only going by the rules as the OP stated.

Lets say the Eldar forces had Dark Reapers. No modifiers work vs the Inescapable Accuracy. So how the OP worded the Cullexus...the DR with 3+ AND ignoring modifiers would now STILLL need 6+ as that is a REPLACEMENT to their BS.

So My question is the Cullexus ability of changing WS to 6+ a true REPLACEMENT that ignores modifiers or does it cause REplacement and then modifiers??

The Dark Reapers would have resolved their attack at BS6+. They would then hit on any roll of 3+ because they hit on 3+ no matter what. It's just like if their data card said BS6+ instead of 3+. "Inescapable Accuracy" is not saying that they always hit on their unmodified BS, it's just telling us the roll that they need to hit, no matter what.

Yeah, the way modifiers work in 8e is that they modify the results of the roll instead of the characteristic (like they used to in previous editions), so there's no longer an issue between what used to be a 'set modifier' (what the Culexus does now) and standard modifiers (which modify the result of a roll).

So long story short, yes if you're shooting at the Culexus and you have any negative modifiers, you cannot him.

And now having looked at the Culexus assassin's stats/rules for the first time in 8e, he sure seems ripe for abuse in exactly the way your opponent was using him!

Dionysodorus wrote:
The Dark Reapers would have resolved their attack at BS6+. They would then hit on any roll of 3+ because they hit on 3+ no matter what. It's just like if their data card said BS6+ instead of 3+. "Inescapable Accuracy" is not saying that they always hit on their unmodified BS, it's just telling us the roll that they need to hit, no matter what.

I have to disagree. The 'Inescapable Accuracy' rule says that they 'always hit on a 3+ when firing a ranged weapon, regardless of modifiers'.

That means the only thing the rule does is prevent modifiers from affecting what they need to roll to hit. The culexus assassin's special rule is NOT a modifier (in 8th edition), and therefore Inescapable Accuracy does nothing against it.


With all that said, its probably something that should be included in a FAQ to complete clarity.

 yakface wrote:
I have to disagree. The 'Inescapable Accuracy' rule says that they 'always hit on a 3+ when firing a ranged weapon, regardless of modifiers'.

That means the only thing the rule does is prevent modifiers from affecting what they need to roll to hit. The culexus assassin's special rule is NOT a modifier (in 8th edition), and therefore Inescapable Accuracy does nothing against it.


With all that said, its probably something that should be included in a FAQ to complete clarity.

I agree that the Dark Reapers have no immunity to the Culexus' rule, I just don't see where the Dark Reapers' BS matters at all for what they need to hit. Like, suppose their unit card just said "BS 5+". What do they need to roll to hit? According to the usual shooting rules, they'd need to roll equal to or greater than their BS, so a 5+, and anything less would be a miss. But they have a special rule: they always hit on a natural 3+. Surely this takes priority over the usual procedure, right?

 yakface wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
The Dark Reapers would have resolved their attack at BS6+. They would then hit on any roll of 3+ because they hit on 3+ no matter what. It's just like if their data card said BS6+ instead of 3+. "Inescapable Accuracy" is not saying that they always hit on their unmodified BS, it's just telling us the roll that they need to hit, no matter what.

I have to disagree. The 'Inescapable Accuracy' rule says that they 'always hit on a 3+ when firing a ranged weapon, regardless of modifiers'.

That means the only thing the rule does is prevent modifiers from affecting what they need to roll to hit. The culexus assassin's special rule is NOT a modifier (in 8th edition), and therefore Inescapable Accuracy does nothing against it.


With all that said, its probably something that should be included in a FAQ to complete clarity.

It doesn't really matter whether it is a modifier or not because the two rules don't interfere with one another: your BS becomes 6+, then your weapon says you always hit on a 3+ which has nothing to do with your BS.

Dionysodorus wrote:I agree that the Dark Reapers have no immunity to the Culexus' rule, I just don't see where the Dark Reapers' BS matters at all for what they need to hit. Like, suppose their unit card just said "BS 5+". What do they need to roll to hit? According to the usual shooting rules, they'd need to roll equal to or greater than their BS, so a 5+, and anything less would be a miss. But they have a special rule: they always hit on a natural 3+. Surely this takes priority over the usual procedure, right?

mrhappyface wrote:It doesn't really matter whether it is a modifier or not because the two rules don't interfere with one another: your BS becomes 6+, then your weapon says you always hit on a 3+ which has nothing to do with your BS.

No, their ability says they always hit on a 3+ regardless of modifiers. You cannot ignore the full text of the rule. That means the ONLY thing their ability effectively does is allow them to ignore modifiers. Why they didn't write it as: 'this unit ignores all modifiers on its rolls to hit', who knows? But they didn't. However, it still does not say the unit always hits on a roll of 3+ (full stop), which is what it would take for what you guys are claiming to be the case.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 yakface wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
The Dark Reapers would have resolved their attack at BS6+. They would then hit on any roll of 3+ because they hit on 3+ no matter what. It's just like if their data card said BS6+ instead of 3+. "Inescapable Accuracy" is not saying that they always hit on their unmodified BS, it's just telling us the roll that they need to hit, no matter what.

I have to disagree. The 'Inescapable Accuracy' rule says that they 'always hit on a 3+ when firing a ranged weapon, regardless of modifiers'.

That means the only thing the rule does is prevent modifiers from affecting what they need to roll to hit. The culexus assassin's special rule is NOT a modifier (in 8th edition), and therefore Inescapable Accuracy does nothing against it.


With all that said, its probably something that should be included in a FAQ to complete clarity.

It doesn't really matter whether it is a modifier or not because the two rules don't interfere with one another: your BS becomes 6+, then your weapon says you always hit on a 3+ which has nothing to do with your BS.

I agree with this, otherwise flamers would not autohit in the same case. BS doesn't matter for those just like some other weapons.

 yakface wrote:

No, their ability says they always hit on a 3+ regardless of modifiers. You cannot ignore the full text of the rule. That means the ONLY thing their ability effectively does is allow them to ignore modifiers. Why they didn't write it as: 'this unit ignores all modifiers on its rolls to hit', who knows? But they didn't. However, it still does not say the unit always hits on a roll of 3+ (full stop), which is what it would take for what you guys are claiming to be the case.

I would say the rule is saying they ALWAYS hit on a 3+ but they are then clarifying that no rule may then modify this fixed to hit role. It is the exact same wording as Kharn's axe which allows him to always hit on a 2+ no matter what.

 yakface wrote:

No, their ability says they always hit on a 3+ regardless of modifiers. You cannot ignore the full text of the rule. That means the ONLY thing their ability effectively does is allow them to ignore modifiers. Why they didn't write it as: 'this unit ignores all modifiers on its rolls to hit', who knows? But they didn't. However, it still does not say the unit always hits on a roll of 3+ (full stop), which is what it would take for what you guys are claiming to be the case.

I don't think I understand what you think their ability actually does. It seems to me that you're completely ignoring the "3+" part. What I think I'm saying is just that they always hit on a 3+, regardless of modifiers. You roll to hit and look at what you rolled. If any of the physical dice are showing 3 or more pips, those are hits -- you don't apply modifiers like Hard to Hit or moving and firing a heavy weapon, and if you had some +1 to hit modifier you wouldn't apply that either*. All natural rolls of 3+ are hits. That's what I think their rule does. I roll to hit. I get a 3. I ask "regardless of any modifiers, is this at least 3?" It is, so it's a hit. At no point do I have to reference their BS.

I read it in basically the same way that I think everyone reads the "ones always fail" rule: "A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply." Applied to hit rolls, I take that to mean exactly the same thing as: "A roll of 1 always misses, regardless of any modifiers", or "A hit roll of a natural 1 always misses", to be sure my use of "natural" was clear. It means that no matter what your BS is or what modifiers apply to the hit roll -- even if a modified 1 is actually equal to or greater than your BS -- you miss if the die is showing one pip. Likewise, if a 3+ always hits, regardless of modifiers, then dice showing three or more pips are hits.

*You could argue that the Reapers' rule doesn't actually say that you miss if you don't roll a 3+, so perhaps they can benefit from positive modifiers in a normal case where they're still resolving the attack at BS3+ and they have a net +1 modifier. A roll of 2 isn't a hit by virtue of their special rule, but it is a hit according to the usual test, and their rule only overrides the usual procedure on a natural 3+.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

No, Characters do NOT restrict other Characters from being attacked only regular units, and tell your opponent to stop being an donkey-cave.

Is there a reference for this or did you just invent a new rule for us?

Are you going to argue that charcters restrict who you can shoot at?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
No there is not. A character with less than 10 wounds cannot be targeted unless it is the closest unit. It does work that way.

Yes there is here is the exact wording.

"A Character can only be chosen as a target in the shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit." In this case the word unit does not mean all units it means all non-character units.

If they meant characters stop other charcters from being shot then they would have added "even if that unit is a character".

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
No there is not. A character with less than 10 wounds cannot be targeted unless it is the closest unit. It does work that way.

Yes there is here is the exact wording.

"A Character can only be chosen as a target in the shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit." In this case the word unit does not mean all units it means all non-character units.

If they meant characters stop other charcters from being shot then they would have added "even if that unit is a character".

Um... no. If they meant for Characters to not block Characters they would have exempted Characters from that list. The general term of "unit" is sufficiently general to include Character units unless the separation was established previous to the quoted sentence.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

No, Characters do NOT restrict other Characters from being attacked only regular units, and tell your opponent to stop being an donkey-cave.

Is there a reference for this or did you just invent a new rule for us?

Are you going to argue that charcters restrict who you can shoot at?

I mean... I guess I am, though mostly that's going to consist of me pointing you to the part of your own post where you quote the rule that plainly says that.

 Lance845 wrote:
No there is not. A character with less than 10 wounds cannot be targeted unless it is the closest unit. It does work that way.

Yes there is here is the exact wording.

"A Character can only be chosen as a target in the shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit." In this case the word unit does not mean all units it means all non-character units.

If they meant characters stop other charcters from being shot then they would have added "even if that unit is a character".

Also, your reading is completely incoherent. You're saying that the rule means "A Character can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if they are the closest visible non-Character enemy unit." But, uhh, then you just can't ever shoot at Characters. A Character will simply never be the closest non-Character unit because Characters are not non-Character units. So either the word "unit" there includes Characters, in which case a Character can prevent you from shooting a more distant Character, or "units" does not include Characters, in which case you can never shoot Characters. Which is it?

2 questions: Does a character take up a force org chart? Can you take a dedicated transport for each included character? Since the answer to both of these is "yes" in I'm pretty sure all cases, then characters are units.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I mean... I guess I am, though mostly that's going to consist of me pointing you to the part of your own post where you quote the rule that plainly says that.

Okay that is fine you play that way.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Also, your reading is completely incoherent. You're saying that the rule means "A Character can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if they are the closest visible non-Character enemy unit." But, uhh, then you just can't ever shoot at Characters. A Character will simply never be the closest non-Character unit because Characters are not non-Character units. So either the word "unit" there includes Characters, in which case a Character can prevent you from shooting a more distant Character, or "units" does not include Characters, in which case you can never shoot Characters. Which is it?

Know what your right enjoy losing your games to impossible to hit Culexus Assassins, and NOT HAVING CONTROL over who your army can shoot at.

Read it like this. You can only shoot X if there are no Ys closer to you.