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I'd like for Eldar players to reach a consensus (over time) about how our lackluster troops can be brought up to a comparative status. These are my notes on the Eldar troops from number crunching and a weekend of mock scenarios. (with input from opponents)

Ancient Doom: exceptionally low impact. useless ability in >95% of games. (we have a few chaos players near us, but they are completely in the khorne, tzeentch, nurgle realm.)(maybe newer models?)
Battle Focus: mediocre, lets shooty infantry units go faster and shoot at regular BS.

TROOPS:

Storm Guardians, poor man's scorpions+fire dragons. (bad)
82 points get you 2 fusion guns and 14 close combat attacks if you buy a chainsword for model not holding a fusion gun.
Their best feature is the cheap cost, however they are never going to survive to get to where you need them.
Wave Serpent needed, but Eldar already have better units to transport.
already work fine as a cheap screen, although 7ppm is expensive for that ability.

Rangers, awful.
SM scouts are better in every way and cheaper. Ratling's do what rangers do for 1/3 of the price.
Tau sniper drones better and cheaper (w/ marksman), deathmarks cheaper and more durable.

Dire Avengers, superior guardian defenders. (bad)
The unit is severely overcosted by about 40%, exarch options too expensive. (by number crunching/internal/external comparison)
could be the eldar line troop if changed, 5+ overwatch ok for screening duty, 5+ invul save in cc ok for stalling

Guardian Defenders, most usable troop choice (average)
For 8 points, you don't get a whole lot, but they can at least shoot solidly for 1 turn before being shot/chopped to oblivion.
heavy weapon platform, has 2 wounds and 3+ save, but will never be used until 1 guardian is left in the unit.
heavy weapon platform + any weapon reduces the cost efficiency of the squad.
warlocks can buff multiple units now, but have better units to attend too. (warlocks also very soft at t3, 2w)


SUGGESTED CORRECTIONS: I believe using ONE of the following options would correct the unit
Storm Guardians:
a) min squad size reduced to 6
b) movement ability to roll 2d6 for advance and pick the highest
c) reduce cost of base storm guardian to 6, increase cost of chainsword to 2

Rangers:
a)cost reduced to 14 points (appropriate cost)
b)ap -2 on ranger long rifle, cost reduced to 18 (better eldar tech)
c)bs increased to 2+, and re-roll all cover saves, cost reduced to 18 (more skill at shooting and hiding)

Dire Avengers:
a) increase avenger shuriken catapult to assault 3 (similar to sternguard damage output in 15" rapid fire range)
b) reduce cost of DA body to 9, reduce cost of avenger shuricat to 2
c) increase range of avenger shuricat to 24", increase exarch WS and BS to 2+, and Ld to 9, attacks to 3, save to 3+, reduce cost of shimmersheild to 10

Guardian Defenders:
a) remove 1w, reduce Sv3+ to Sv5+ of HWP, reduce cost to 0 and add the ability for any weapon mounted on it to become an ASSAULT class weapon.
b) if the unit has 20 guardian defenders a 3rd heavy weapon platform may be taken.
c) reduce cost of heavy weapon platform to 0, remove the need for a guardian to fire it, does not use transport capacity, is removed from play when last guardian dies.


I did some heavy number crunching across indices and a good deal of internal review with SM, Eldar, Tyranids, SW, Necrons, Orks, Imp. Knights. (2 friends and I play many armies) We are competitive players, in other games and have been for ~20ish years, (MTG, Warmachine/Hordes, +50 other dead TCGs/Miniatures games) Anyway, we had a bbq at my house and played out some mock scenarios/ and tiny battles with the new rules and unit cards over the weekend. These are my feelings going into 8th edition. (NOTE: I did not play 7th, I've been over in MKiii land) I can't imagine I was using them that horribly, I did not win any troop engagements. I thinking I am going to be running only Vanguard, Spearhead, Outrider detachments going forward. (which kinda pisses me off, I have about $400 bucks worth of troops I won't be using)

What do you think?

Totally agree with your conclusions. From the other Aeldari factions, Kabalites, Harlequins & even the less good Wyches & Wracks make CWE troops look pretty rubbish. In general non-wraith CWE infantry sucks when you compare them to other factions, with the exception of Fire Dragons.

Rangers should be a bit cheaper. I feel its skewed because ratlings are so stupidly cheap a blob for turn one character sniping seems like a relatively stress free auto-include.
Dire Avengers should be about 13-14 points per model.
Both types of Guardians are where they always are. They are not bad, they are just not good. No one will use storm guardians and people will take defenders until people decide its a waste of points that could go into something else.

I've played mech since 3rd ed and it looks to be the way I'll go in 8th. Unless GW choose to admit that there was an error in the DA costing, I'll probably just substitute Guardians in for my DAs. Shuriken Cannon to keep them cheap and cheerful and means they can utilise Battle Focus without suffering a BS penalty. They're best suited to the mech role IMO due to the shuricats short range.

Wave Serpents are going to provide a lot of protection in 8th so I think running full mech will frustrate opponents no end.

Path of Command is also a nice ability. I may end up running a couple of Autarchs.

Also, just realised you can put 6 FDs and 6 DRs in a single Serpent which is a nice option. Expensive, yes, but gives you a lot of punch against heavy targets but also the flexibility to engage multiple targets.

Yeah, I think this is basically right.

I doubt your (a) and (c) solutions meaningfully help Dire Avengers. It's important to remember when trying to compare them to a naked tactical marine squad or veterans or whatever that nobody actually takes those units without upgrading them with special weapons (well, maybe the occasional veterans squad, but it's rare and is usually about not having the points to give them weapons). They're clearly overcosted except as weapons platforms, though I guess someone could argue that they're fine and it's the weapons that are badly undercosted. Meanwhile the DAs don't have very good upgrades; the Exarch can choose to shoot like 2 regular DAs or he can choose to neuter his ranged output to make this squad almost as good in CC as the same points in Guardian Defenders. This is nowhere near as appealing as taking multiple plasma guns.

I still think Guardian Defenders are pretty good and I generally prefer them to the other options in an Ynnari list. The weapons platforms aren't a good option and could stand to be improved, yes, but they work great as-is in Serpents.

Storm Guardians just seem sort of useless now that pistols don't really do anything and since flamers and melta weapons took a hit. Pistols are like shuriken catapults with half the shots and no ability to be fired on the move. You will almost never get to fire them while in CC. A Storm Guardian with a flamer is generally worse than two Guardian Defenders except when firing Overwatch, and sometimes you won't even get to do that. The fusion guns are probably usable, kinda, though there are easier ways to get anti-tank guns. If I want screeners I'll just buy some 7 point "Aeldari" Razorwing Flocks.

Out of curiosity - how do they compare when using Power Levels instead?

Dire Avengers definitely appear to be point-costed wrong, yet they're 3 power level for a five man squad (with super-dee-duper Exarch) - the same as an 8 man unit of, say, Storm Guardians.

Rangers are 5 power for five models...so are Ratlings and the like only 2-3 power level? Can you get around any of the points issues by using Power Level instead?

 Elbows wrote:
Out of curiosity - how do they compare when using Power Levels instead?

Dire Avengers definitely appear to be point-costed wrong, yet they're 3 power level for a five man squad (with super-dee-duper Exarch) - the same as an 8 man unit of, say, Storm Guardians.

Rangers are 5 power for five models...so are Ratlings and the like only 2-3 power level? Can you get around any of the points issues by using Power Level instead?

Dire Avengers are going to be basically fine, and probably even very strong, using power levels. Their power cost basically seems to assume that the avenger catapults cost 0 -- about 10 points per model for the unit, then call it an average of another 10 points for Exarch upgrades. The Exarch upgrades other than the extra catapult are not very good but they're worth it regardless. If you just take a minimum squad with a double catapult Exarch for the equivalent of 60 points you're getting 80% of Guardians' firepower per point on a slightly more durable platform, plus the extra 6" of range.

Power has its own bizarre costs, though. Guardian Defenders, which were already more-or-less fine, get a free Starcannon platform for the equivalent of 80 points still. Storm Guardians you can just go nuts with, getting 99 points of stuff for 3 power (60 points), though they're still not going to be as good as Defenders. Meanwhile, the power costs for all of the Eldar vehicles assume that you're taking almost all of the really expensive options, including the ones that it doesn't really even make sense to take together, so the Wave Serpent is a lot worse and the other grav tanks are unplayable.

Rangers have a benefit over Marine snipers as they are placed in a pseudo reserve which doesn't affect you going first by deploying the last unit. -1 to hit and +2 cover save isn't bad either.

pointless818 wrote:

Rangers, awful.
Ratling's do what rangers do for 1/3 of the price.

They're also Ld 5, T2, have a worse save and aren't troops.

 bullyboy wrote:
Rangers have a benefit over Marine snipers as they are placed in a pseudo reserve which doesn't affect you going first by deploying the last unit. -1 to hit and +2 cover save isn't bad either.

This is true and Rangers are not bad but they are still overpriced compared to Marine Scouts. Sniper Scouts with Camo cost 18 points while Rangers cost 20. Scouts get +1S, +1T and +1Sv. The Rangers -1 to hit roughly balances out the save but still leaves Scouts stronger, tougher and cheaper.

The ability to pop up where you want is handy but even so, Rangers should cost at most the same as Scouts, they should not be more expensive. Having said that, I will still run a unit for anti-character duties.

In general, I think Wave Serpent spam is back with triple-shuricannon looking particularly effective. For about the same cost as a BA Baal predator with no sponsons, you get 2 more wounds, an energy field, faster moevment, transport capacity 12 and it is a transport rather than a heavy! These babies rock! Even for the silly points cost of DAs, taking a few 5 man unit and putting them in Serpents will work very nicely indeed.

Remember that we don't have to run lots of Troops in this edition. A Wraith Host based on a Vanguard Detachment will work very nicely, as will many Aspect-heavy lists.

In general, I think Wave Serpent spam is back with triple-shuricannon looking particularly effective. For about the same cost as a BA Baal predator with no sponsons, you get 2 more wounds, an energy field, faster moevment, transport capacity 12 and it is a transport rather than a heavy! These babies rock! Even for the silly points cost of DAs, taking a few 5 man unit and putting them in Serpents will work very nicely indeed.

What units would you put in there.
In former days, I've put Dire Avengers, Guardian Defenders or Fire Dragon in there. The first two for anti-infantry and the latter for anti-tank or anti-MC, and it worked pretty well.

I think the point for guardian defender squads is to give your wave serpants something cheap to transport. The wave serpent is the power - it's the real standout unit for me in the whole craftworlds army list. That and EML and Starcannons.

 wuestenfux wrote:

In general, I think Wave Serpent spam is back with triple-shuricannon looking particularly effective. For about the same cost as a BA Baal predator with no sponsons, you get 2 more wounds, an energy field, faster moevment, transport capacity 12 and it is a transport rather than a heavy! These babies rock! Even for the silly points cost of DAs, taking a few 5 man unit and putting them in Serpents will work very nicely indeed.

What units would you put in there.
In former days, I've put Dire Avengers, Guardian Defenders or Fire Dragon in there. The first two for anti-infantry and the latter for anti-tank or anti-MC, and it worked pretty well.

All of the above will still work very nicely. Defenders are cheap and cheerful. Avengers look overpriced at first glance but a 5-man squad starts from just 85 points so may be worth considering. Fire Dragons still excel at slaying large targets of all flavours.

Beyond that, Wraithguard look good still in this edition. While the drop to T5 and introduction of save modifiers has hurt their suvivability somewhat, the fact that they now come with 3 wounds each makes them more survivable overall IMHO.

Dark Reapers also look really good. They are surprisingly cost effective and their launchers still excel at killing multi-wound infantry (hello Primaris and Plague Marines) whilst also having a higher strength shot for large targets.

If you decide to go down a mechanized army route, you add want to add an Autarch with a Jetbike, wings or Jump Generator to keep up with the vehicles and give them his bubble of rerolling 1s to hit.

Lastly, don't overlook Banshees and Scorpions in this edition. Banshees are cheaper than Avengers and can now charge on the turn they disembark. Food for though.

Also, folks, if it's Wave Serpents you're after, don't get locked into the 7e rules about who can take a dedicated transport. You get a transport slot for every unit you take, with no exceptions for vehicles, monsters and other folks that can't ride in one that I can see. So, if you want Rangers, go bananas and still take your Serpents. (I agree that Guardians are generally better than Rangers, but the option is there.)

Lastly, don't overlook Banshees and Scorpions in this edition. Banshees are cheaper than Avengers and can now charge on the turn they disembark. Food for though.

That's a nice gimmick.
But Banshees are not strong enough to make that much damage and their survivability is questionable. I have 20 Banshees on my shelf, but I guess they will hardly see the battle field.

Yeah, I'm a bit curious about that rule - the FOC things definitely just say "dedicated transport for each other unit". I'd like to see something in the rules limiting this as it just creates absolute Wave Serpent spam.

 Elbows wrote:
Yeah, I'm a bit curious about that rule - the FOC things definitely just say "dedicated transport for each other unit". I'd like to see something in the rules limiting this as it just creates absolute Wave Serpent spam.

Yes, please. Wave Serpent spam is back.
In former editions I liked the way to play them. Just gradually approach the enemy front ranks by constantly shooting him. Use Warwalkers and Vypers to fill gaps in the shooty gunline. When the tanks are close enough, disembark the mounted units and go for the enemy's throat.