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I was painting some Primaris for my new deatwatch army, but this bolter rule makes change my mind. No Primaris for a wile, I will continue painting vets with SS and SB.

Played my first game with DW yesterday, against Berserkers in Rhinos, Blood Letters, Demon Prince and Khorne Hounds.

1200 points.

I had the Watch Master, Artemis, Librarian and jump pack Chaplain, 4 x 7 Veteran squads. This was mostly a test run, with a vanguard in each squad, one termie in each squad, one black shield in a squad. The basic Vets were kitted out with SS and SB while i put two shotguns in a close combat unit and 3 frag cannons in another unit. I also ran a Venerable Dread.

I lost the close combat squad and the Watch Master quite early, and then the rest of my army proceeded to wipe out his entire force.

Near the end the squad with three frag cannons destroyed a wounded rhino, two squads of berserkers, a dark apostle and a chaos champion all in overwatch. I was gobsmacked.

I play quite aggressive armies in Orks, Drukhari and Harlequins but you have to pick your battles with DW I find, but wow can they pack a punch when you commit to killing something.

I ran the deathwatch list I proposed earlier againgst a friends World Eaters list. It completely decimated him...…… I kinda felt bad. End of turn 4 and he just had one predator on the field left.







Every turn I was literally deleting any part of his army that got closer than 24" to me.

Alex_85 wrote:
I was painting some Primaris for my new deatwatch army, but this bolter rule makes change my mind. No Primaris for a wile, I will continue painting vets with SS and SB.

Keep painting the Intercessors.
The AP-1 on Bolt rifles makes all the difference for SIA.
Wonderful as Storm Bolters are under the new rules a squad of Deathwatch Intercessors is how you drop Infantry, Monsters, Beasts and light Vehicles.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Alex_85 wrote:
I was painting some Primaris for my new deatwatch army, but this bolter rule makes change my mind. No Primaris for a wile, I will continue painting vets with SS and SB.

Keep painting the Intercessors.
The AP-1 on Bolt rifles makes all the difference for SIA.
Wonderful as Storm Bolters are under the new rules a squad of Deathwatch Intercessors is how you drop Infantry, Monsters, Beasts and light Vehicles.

So, the problem is, no it does not.

Unless you're fighting in the 31-36" range band (the only range at which the intercessors can reach but the storm bolters cannot) storm bolters do more damage than bolt rifles against every target. This is kind of the problem with DW storm bolters and kind of storm bolters in general: They do more damage than almost everything.

Vs an infantry (lets say T3 5+ Guardsmen) using Ap-1 ammo:

4x.666x.666x.8333=1.48 dead from the SB
2x.666x.666 = .887 dead from the bolt rifle

Vs a monster (lets say T7 3+ carnifex) using wound on 2s ammo:

4x.666x.8333x.3333=.740 wounds from the SB
2x.666x.8333x.5 = .555 wounds from the BR

Versus a light vehicle (maybe T5 4+ like an ork buggy?) using -1 AP ammo:

4x.666x.333x.666 = .59 wounds from the SB
2x.666x.333x.8333 = .37 wounds from the bolt rifle

Storm bolters outdamage every competing weapon option unless you're out of range of the SB and in range of the competing weapon (heavy bolter, bolt rifle, stalker bolt at 31-36" range). Even things like the Shotgun auto-hit mini-flamer profile against Guardsmen in 8" range. Even a goddamn combi-flamer unloading into guardsmen at 8" range does less than a storm bolter using ap-2 ammo, and what do those cost 12 points or something crazy like that?

You have to get into Frag Cannon territory to outdamage a friggin 4-point storm bolter. Now, granted I think that's primarily a problem with weapons like flamers and shotguns and heavy bolters being bad at their jobs (killing light infantry up close) and I'd rather see them buffed in effectiveness but as we stand right now storm bolters are the best weapon bar none in most situations.

For me the main difference between the Vets and the Intercessors are Storm Shields. For only 2 points. Primaris has a big lack of equipment options. I prefer one wound model with invulnerable than a 2 wounds without it.

I use one squad Intercessor just because I like how they looks. I am really thinking about convert some Primaris into Veterans.

Alex_85 wrote:
For me the main difference between the Vets and the Intercessors are Storm Shields. For only 2 points. Primaris has a big lack of equipment options. I prefer one wound model with invulnerable than a 2 wounds without it.

I use one squad Intercessor just because I like how they looks. I am really thinking about convert some Primaris into Veterans.

That really comes down to GWs newer philosophy from the folks that make the models. Newer kits are barely better than Mono-pose with fewer options. They do look good, but more specialty poses mean less modularity, and less equipment options. Until GW complete borks the mini Marines or gives up on the Mono-pose primaris, Primaris will always be inferior on the equipment front.

I will always use one unit of Primaris for two reasons:

1) safe Aggressors. They do great work and I have never had an issue getting them into position.

2) I have a lot of Thousand Sons and Death Guard in my local meta and Intercessors are the best MW soak we have without allies.

That being said if I am trying to be competitive I run 3 vets and 1 intercessor rather than the other way around now

Playing tonight tempted to take my corvus and get some use from its increased hurricane bolter shots and keep it within 6 of the watch master?

So it turns out that SS/SB vet squads are overpowered. I don't think anyone can deny that now can they? Mortal wounds are the only efficient way to deal with them, aside from jinx/doom, the ultimate debuff in 40k.

The kind of loadout I'm talking about is vanvet, 2 termies, blackshield, sarg and 5 vets: 2 2+ models, 7 3++, coming in at 223pts.

 grouchoben wrote:
So it turns out that SS/SB vet squads are overpowered. I don't think anyone can deny that now can they? Mortal wounds are the only efficient way to deal with them, aside from jinx/doom, the ultimate debuff in 40k.

The kind of loadout I'm talking about is vanvet, 2 termies, blackshield, sarg and 5 vets: 2 2+ models, 7 3++, coming in at 223pts.

I tought it was better to avoid the blackshield so that the enemy can not force you to HI.

Alex_85 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
So it turns out that SS/SB vet squads are overpowered. I don't think anyone can deny that now can they? Mortal wounds are the only efficient way to deal with them, aside from jinx/doom, the ultimate debuff in 40k.

The kind of loadout I'm talking about is vanvet, 2 termies, blackshield, sarg and 5 vets: 2 2+ models, 7 3++, coming in at 223pts.

I tought it was better to avoid the blackshield so that the enemy can not force you to HI.

Why would them being able to force HI matter? They can't hit you if you weren't a charge target - so free melee attacks and movement from HI and pile in. You still control how much of the move you make because you move up to 3" and end closer - so just move .01" and remain out of combat unless the opponent piles in twice. The VV makes it so you won't be tied down and silenced in the shooting phase. I can't see a single thing that makes it a downside.

All I know is that the Pistol Genestealer dude really put the final nail in the coffin for me still wanting to use Primaris in my Deathwatch in some form.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All I know is that the Pistol Genestealer dude really put the final nail in the coffin for me still wanting to use Primaris in my Deathwatch in some form.

In fairness, the GSC book in general is looking to feth over balance across the board. Not just for marines.

Yeah it looks like a crazy army that's gonna rewrite some game balance basics!

Auspex scan is going to have a field day with GSC

 Continuity wrote:
Auspex scan is going to have a field day with GSC

Which is 2CP and you get it once per turn.

Gotta be careful when to pop it, which is why it might be informative to discuss what the most outlier threats are to take those free shots at.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
That really comes down to GWs newer philosophy from the folks that make the models. Newer kits are barely better than Mono-pose with fewer options. They do look good, but more specialty poses mean less modularity, and less equipment options. Until GW complete borks the mini Marines or gives up on the Mono-pose primaris, Primaris will always be inferior on the equipment front.

That makes no sense at all. DW kill team box is even more monopose and it has less options than primaris have, they just lucked into the fact that GW writers don't try to sabotage them like primaris and they got access to every single option tactical squads have, with no limits. BA tactical squad has storm bolter bit? Take ten of them, despite the fact there are zero in kill team box itself! Really, DW just plainly shows how dumb primaris limitations are and how rich and diverse the army would be, by showing what people can do with similar oldmarine kit if they aren't blocked for no reason. Just look at frakking power axes, DW can take them on every single model despite the bit not existing anywhere in the range, while primaris still can't two years later for some incredibly stupid non-reason...

See, what you’re failing to realize is the key to being tactically flexible is to have exactly 5 guys with exactly the same weapons and no equipment.

I’ve always found it ironic that Guilliman is the reputed tactical genius, yet the further you get from codex marines and anything he touched, the better marine units get.

Personally, I think having 1-2 units of DW Intercessor is good to just sit in cover and pew-pew using Bolter Discipline and SIA.
SB/SS Vets seem better as your "active" Troops in that they don't really care about cover, so they can move to forward objectives.

If I were to run DW, I'd do a 2:1 ratios of SS/SB Vet units to Intercessors.

Wow well tonight I learned some serious lessons about 40k and Deathwatch...

Played my foot slogging force at 2k which was basically

Watch master

Primaris librarian

Smash captain

3 X 10 Primaris kill teams with hellblasters/intercessors

2 X 6 veterans with storm bolter storm shield etc

2 ven dreads twin lascannon and ml

1 redemptor dread

5 hellblasters

He had Tau with 3 Riptide's 2 Hammerheads and since broadsides.

Basically time was short so deployed everything as close as I could to him kept 5 hellblasters and jump captain in reserve. He got first turn and went to town on my Primaris absolutely annihilating them because they were in huge blobs of 10.... Massive mistake from me. In my first turn the beta bolters helped and my veterans managed to do plenty of damage to a riptide and one of my ven dreads named to cause 10 wounds on it with 2 lascannon shots! It died.

Basically in the end he smashed me with massive firepower and I put hardly anything in reserve which was dumb. The big Primaris squads are only good for teleporting and if on foot need to be combat squads as morale was a big factor too.

You run 3 HQ so you had one Battalion with 5 troop squads. You maybe should reduce a bit those big Primaris squads because as you said morale was a problem, and you could also have points for another HQ and so two Battalion, adding a small Intercessor squads. With this you would have plenty of CP for have your veterans in reserve.
But hey, you self have noticed this in your match so no problem, next time you will do it better.

Yeah that's true I do have a lot of intercessors, i have just bought a repulsor which I will be including in the army too. I have a squad of intercessors with aggressors which is very expensive and needs to either deep strike or be transported.

I was thinking the day...would it be possible to use some of the adeptus titanicus game titans as „counts as“ contemptor dread? Has anyone checked the base sizes or maybe seen something similar? I was thinking about the „scout“ titans as conversions

Primaris ideally are 5 intercessors/5 hellblasters, or a mix of intercessors and aggressors. They should always be deepstruck if you see something like a riptide or dizzie cannons on the board, as against these kinds of weapons they will just bleed out.

The truth is you're much better off going vets, but if you must use primaris, stack them with specialists and protect them, and they can do well. It's counterintuitive, but they're much squishier than vets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think there's still a case for a big squad deepstriking, but that should be a specialsed unit with a job, not a troop-slot filler. 5-man ss/sb squads are way too good if you're just trying to fill a batallion, and 10-mans with termis and a vanvet wipe the floor with primaris unfortunately.

 grouchoben wrote:
Primaris ideally are 5 intercessors/5 hellblasters, or a mix of intercessors and aggressors. They should always be deepstruck if you see something like a riptide or dizzie cannons on the board, as against these kinds of weapons they will just bleed out.

The truth is you're much better off going vets, but if you must use primaris, stack them with specialists and protect them, and they can do well. It's counterintuitive, but they're much squishier than vets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think there's still a case for a big squad deepstriking, but that should be a specialsed unit with a job, not a troop-slot filler. 5-man ss/sb squads are way too good if you're just trying to fill a batallion, and 10-mans with termis and a vanvet wipe the floor with primaris unfortunately.

Fair enough dude one just got so many Primaris and am trying to future proof myself by not buying more vets. I've got around 16 vets and have a squad of 5 sterguard bnib too so might start using more of them

Rogerio134134 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Primaris ideally are 5 intercessors/5 hellblasters, or a mix of intercessors and aggressors. They should always be deepstruck if you see something like a riptide or dizzie cannons on the board, as against these kinds of weapons they will just bleed out.

The truth is you're much better off going vets, but if you must use primaris, stack them with specialists and protect them, and they can do well. It's counterintuitive, but they're much squishier than vets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think there's still a case for a big squad deepstriking, but that should be a specialsed unit with a job, not a troop-slot filler. 5-man ss/sb squads are way too good if you're just trying to fill a batallion, and 10-mans with termis and a vanvet wipe the floor with primaris unfortunately.

Fair enough dude one just got so many Primaris and am trying to future proof myself by not buying more vets. I've got around 16 vets and have a squad of 5 sterguard bnib too so might start using more of them

It's funny how time after time we've seen baseline marines get bonuses and perform better than any Primaris unit yet still we're thinking they'll be the future.

Until they are competitive, I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

Lemondish wrote:
It's funny how time after time we've seen baseline marines get bonuses and perform better than any Primaris unit yet still we're thinking they'll be the future.

Until they are competitive, I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

I don’t think people are saying they are the future because the sats, but because in a few years they think that’s all GW will be producing, and eventually they will stop rules support for the old stuff.

But that day, if it comes, is probably ~2-3 editions away, with a slow transition until the final drop.

Assuming nothing changes. Which is a big assumption.

I know the fairly standard idea with DW tends to be to run a Knight or some Venerables for the AT portion of the list, but I've been toying with all infantry list ideas and thought what if you brought in the mortal wound core from a vanilla chapter? On the one hand, DW vets with storm bolters do passable wounds to so many things just through sheer weight of dice and a few Devs can't match that by default. But, vanilla do have cherubs and Scouts. What do you think of this general list idea to combine the two?

What do you think of the following?
DW Battalion:
Liiibbie with Jump Pack - WLT trait Lord of Hidden Knowledge
Watch Master (Warlord) Beacon
3 Vet Squads: 2 Termies SB, Power Maul, 1 VV 2x chain swords, 7 Vets with SB, SS

Astra Militatum Battalion
Valhallan
Commander
Commissar: Pietrov's Mk45
30 COnscripts
30 Conscripts
10 man Squad
2 Basilisks

Auxililary Super Heavy
House Krast
Crusader Knight: Storm Spear missile pod, Battle cannon, Avenger Cannon