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Versatilebeats wrote:
The top deathwatch player got what 47th place at Lvo? Sb/ss vets are far from op

That's good news (well, sort of). Despite my belief that the logical "solution" GW would impose being the removal of SBs from the DW equipment list, I really don't want that to happen.
As long as DW armies do not place very high at events, I don't think there will be any change forthcoming.

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So how come everyone thinks the Blackstar isn't any good? At first glance it seems pretty decent?

Also, storm bolter's for DW are still 4 points right?

Andrew Gonyo's DW list did pretty good actually. getting in the top 50 is amazing and proves either you are a top tier player or your army is super good.

You really only needed one bad game to drop 40-80 places. Also, since bolter buff wasn't in effectat the LVO expect Deathwatch to do even better coming up.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Versatilebeats wrote:
The top deathwatch player got what 47th place at Lvo? Sb/ss vets are far from op

What was the list out of curiosity?

If it's the same one he played in January it was a combined Deathwatch and Sisters list with Bobby G as a beatstick. The DW component is only ~800 points (three ten man Vet teams with the usual Biker, Termie and VanVet trimmings plus HQs).

Versatilebeats wrote:
The top deathwatch player got what 47th place at Lvo? Sb/ss vets are far from op

Nice job moving the goalposts, champ. Nobody said they were OP, just that they were hands down the best choice for kit and because of that they push out all the other options.

And even then they aren't even that great. Though I will say finishing in the top 7% of the tournament is pretty good.

The fixation on tournament placement for ITCHammer when everyone else plays Warhammer is kind of idiotic, too. But that's not your fault - that's a dakka trait.

The real issue is that by highlighting their placement you think that absolves the storm bolter of its position as the king because in your eyes it isn't all that great anyway. Well imagine how fething horrid the rest of the options are if the storm bolter/storm shield DW Vet still isn't placing. It means gak is broken, son. That's what it means.

Lemondish wrote:

Versatilebeats wrote:
The top deathwatch player got what 47th place at Lvo? Sb/ss vets are far from op

Nice job moving the goalposts, champ. Nobody said they were OP, just that they were hands down the best choice for kit and because of that they push out all the other options.

And even then they aren't even that great. Though I will say finishing in the top 7% of the tournament is pretty good.

The fixation on tournament placement for ITCHammer when everyone else plays Warhammer is kind of idiotic, too. But that's not your fault - that's a dakka trait.

The real issue is that by highlighting their placement you think that absolves the storm bolter of its position as the king because in your eyes it isn't all that great anyway. Well imagine how fething horrid the rest of the options are if the storm bolter/storm shield DW Vet still isn't placing. It means gak is broken, son. That's what it means.

I definitely don't think it absolves the Storm Shield of the absurd cost it has currently. Plus the guy above me said the player was using the same list...how many Storm Shields is that?

I still say my list is a stronger list, even without the soup, but I think every DW player at the LVO had at least 3-5 wins which is pretty good overall.

Once they get that bolter buff its gonna be scary.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I definitely don't think it absolves the Storm Shield of the absurd cost it has currently. Plus the guy above me said the player was using the same list...how many Storm Shields is that?

Eighteen. Calling it a DW primary army is quite a stretch when you're putting Celestine *and* Rowboat on the board.

Interesting Celestine was still getting used. She's still good and all, but now it's more of a chore to throw her in.

And even then they aren't even that great. Though I will say finishing in the top 7% of the tournament is pretty good.

The real issue is that by highlighting their placement you think that absolves the storm bolter of its position as the king because in your eyes it isn't all that great anyway. Well imagine how fething horrid the rest of the options are if the storm bolter/storm shield DW Vet still isn't placing. It means gak is broken, son. That's what it means.

bobafett012 wrote:
So how come everyone thinks the Blackstar isn't any good? At first glance it seems pretty decent?

Also, storm bolter's for DW are still 4 points right?

It has to choose between subpar output or subpar survivability. It needs to keep moving to stay alive and do its job, but that drops its WS to 4+ for most of its guns. The bombs almost never do anything either. It's not terrible and it delivers frag cannons admirably, but there are just generally better ways to spend those points. That doesn't stop me from fielding mine, but I'm aware I could easily replace it most of the time.

 LunarSol wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:
So how come everyone thinks the Blackstar isn't any good? At first glance it seems pretty decent?

Also, storm bolter's for DW are still 4 points right?

It has to choose between subpar output or subpar survivability. It needs to keep moving to stay alive and do its job, but that drops its WS to 4+ for most of its guns. The bombs almost never do anything either. It's not terrible and it delivers frag cannons admirably, but there are just generally better ways to spend those points. That doesn't stop me from fielding mine, but I'm aware I could easily replace it most of the time.

gak, tbh, I totally forgot about it only hitting on 4's because my ravenwing flyers all have strafing run so they get the +1 to hit. Hmmmm, that definitely changes my assessment quite a bit. I was considering taking 2 or 3 for anti vehicle support

That the Corvus hasn't Spirit of the Machine....

So I'm trying to avoid adding any Vehicles to my list just to deny anti-vehicle weapons their ideal targets, however, if I were to add some vehicle for some much needed anti-tank, what would be the better option:

2 VenDread w/ TwinLas/ML or
2 Helverin Armigers?

The Dreads don't have a degrading profile are better at specifically targeting tanks, but the Armigers will have more wounds, shots, are faster and have a 5++

Thoughts? (btw the bulk if my list will be Storm Vets in 2 Battalions)

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If you want pure unvarnished AT, go with QuadLas Contemptor Mortis dreads. Innate 2+ BS, a 5++ and the capacity to synergize with the rest of your Deathwatch goodies is bloody fantastic for cheaper than an Armiger.

Dreads probably win out simply because you get to give them rerolls and +to wound strats. Armigers are fun though.

Sterling191 wrote:
If you want pure unvarnished AT, go with QuadLas Contemptor Mortis dreads. Innate 2+ BS, a 5++ and the capacity to synergize with the rest of your Deathwatch goodies is bloody fantastic for cheaper than an Armiger.

Thanx, I hadn't considered FW options (I never do) but yeah, that's pretty nasty for true AT. And the Mortis Dread seems like the perfect compromise between the 2.

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 Galef wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
If you want pure unvarnished AT, go with QuadLas Contemptor Mortis dreads. Innate 2+ BS, a 5++ and the capacity to synergize with the rest of your Deathwatch goodies is bloody fantastic for cheaper than an Armiger.

Thanx, I hadn't considered FW options (I never do) but yeah, that's pretty nasty for true AT. And the Mortis Dread seems like the perfect compromise between the 2.

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Just pop a second twin-las onto a VenDread and call it a day. No need to pay absurd prices for it.

I use a Mortis as my Heavy Support to unlock the Leviathan and its not bad. It's no where near as efficient as a Contemptor Mortis on its own, but it gets pretty close as long as you have a Watch Master to let it reroll all failed shots. It also can't really move but doesn't really need to move either. Probably its biggest issue is just that without an invul or damage shrug, it falls apart pretty quickly if it gets targeted. Still, if you've already got a Dread and a way to slap on another Twin Las, it does the job just fine.

Sterling191 wrote:
If you want pure unvarnished AT, go with QuadLas Contemptor Mortis dreads. Innate 2+ BS, a 5++ and the capacity to synergize with the rest of your Deathwatch goodies is bloody fantastic for cheaper than an Armiger.

Those aren't considered Relic units are they? If not, using the Elite slot on those isn't a terrible idea.

I know I'm just using the regular Ven Dreads with my Aegis + Relic Blade Captain (I know, even *I* want to bust out specific models from time to time. *ME*), but being able to commit to, well, no babysitters isn't a bad idea. If only competitive games were played at larger point levels...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
If you want pure unvarnished AT, go with QuadLas Contemptor Mortis dreads. Innate 2+ BS, a 5++ and the capacity to synergize with the rest of your Deathwatch goodies is bloody fantastic for cheaper than an Armiger.

Those aren't considered Relic units are they? If not, using the Elite slot on those isn't a terrible idea.

I know I'm just using the regular Ven Dreads with my Aegis + Relic Blade Captain (I know, even *I* want to bust out specific models from time to time. *ME*), but being able to commit to, well, no babysitters isn't a bad idea. If only competitive games were played at larger point levels...

Nope, the Mortis and C. Mortis are not considered Relics, and they're Heavy Support so can be used to pay the Leviathan relic tax. Remember, the quadlas C Mortis is only ~25 points more than the TL/ML Ven. You're looking at about a 65-70 point differential when you factor in not having to take the Aegis.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
If you want pure unvarnished AT, go with QuadLas Contemptor Mortis dreads. Innate 2+ BS, a 5++ and the capacity to synergize with the rest of your Deathwatch goodies is bloody fantastic for cheaper than an Armiger.

Those aren't considered Relic units are they? If not, using the Elite slot on those isn't a terrible idea.

I know I'm just using the regular Ven Dreads with my Aegis + Relic Blade Captain (I know, even *I* want to bust out specific models from time to time. *ME*), but being able to commit to, well, no babysitters isn't a bad idea. If only competitive games were played at larger point levels...

The Mortis variants are Heavy Support and not Relics. There is a Relic Contemptor that's Elite that mix and matches weaponry a bit, but the qual-las versions are not Relics.

 LunarSol wrote:


The Mortis variants are Heavy Support and not Relics. There is a Relic Contemptor that's Elite that mix and matches weaponry a bit, but the qual-las versions are not Relics.

The Relic Contemptor is an interesting unit. 2+ base save with a few extra wounds and an additional 6+++ for not that much more than a C. Mortis. It can do the QuadLas job, but has access to some other more exotic toys (personal favorite is the C-Beamer for sheer hilarity).

How about some of the adeptus titanicus minis as a contemptor dread counts as

Sterling191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
If you want pure unvarnished AT, go with QuadLas Contemptor Mortis dreads. Innate 2+ BS, a 5++ and the capacity to synergize with the rest of your Deathwatch goodies is bloody fantastic for cheaper than an Armiger.

Those aren't considered Relic units are they? If not, using the Elite slot on those isn't a terrible idea.

I know I'm just using the regular Ven Dreads with my Aegis + Relic Blade Captain (I know, even *I* want to bust out specific models from time to time. *ME*), but being able to commit to, well, no babysitters isn't a bad idea. If only competitive games were played at larger point levels...

Nope, the Mortis and C. Mortis are not considered Relics, and they're Heavy Support so can be used to pay the Leviathan relic tax. Remember, the quadlas C Mortis is only ~25 points more than the TL/ML Ven. You're looking at about a 65-70 point differential when you factor in not having to take the Aegis.

Off memory I don't think the Mortis has the 6+++ do they? I haven't played in a couple of months so I'm rusty on certain rules!

So with the degrading profile too, they'd also be perfect candidates for a babysitting Watch Master at least.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Off memory I don't think the Mortis has the 6+++ do they? I haven't played in a couple of months so I'm rusty on certain rules!

So with the degrading profile too, they'd also be perfect candidates for a babysitting Watch Master at least.

No 6+++ on the Contemptor Mortis. The Relic Contemptor has it though. The naming is confusing for sure.

Sterling191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Off memory I don't think the Mortis has the 6+++ do they? I haven't played in a couple of months so I'm rusty on certain rules!

So with the degrading profile too, they'd also be perfect candidates for a babysitting Watch Master at least.

No 6+++ on the Contemptor Mortis. The Relic Contemptor has it though. The naming is confusing for sure.

At least you understand my confusion, as I keep mixing the Contemptor variants up.

Actually that brings me to the variant that hasn't really been discussed here is the Relic one. Compared to the codex option, we get several more range options, but I'm thinking more about melee on these dudes. I know in the beginning of this edition I was having mediocre success using two with TL Heavy Bolters and a Chainfist. The main attraction to them, for me at least, is that the degrading profile doesn't affect movement. So even if in a shooting phase your opponent knocked it to 3 wounds...it can still move at full capacity and charge.

Deathwatch are of course not really a melee army, but for those of us making use of Bike + Vanguard squads they could make for a good element of target saturation: what do you go after, right?

It seems like a decent sized unit or two of bikes with the SIA and new bolter rules would be very good in a DW list.

bobafett012 wrote:
It seems like a decent sized unit or two of bikes with the SIA and new bolter rules would be very good in a DW list.

Maybe, but you trade ObSec for it since you have to run the Fast Attack. Bikes in Vet units do not have the Biker keyword

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The bigger issue is the inability to include cheap VVs as ablative 3++ wounds, and the loss of fall back and shoot.

Still, 75 points for 12 SIA shots out to 24/30 inches at all times is nothing to sneeze at.