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But it also means since I have the vanilla SM 2.0 codex I dont have to get WD for the rules
Just mark the stratagems that have been copy pasted

I've just had a good go at making a PA list to cheer me up - sorry, to me they just look *exactly* the same as pre-PA lists, with the possible exception of adding an autoboltriflebomb (but really, I don't think they'll be worth it compared to a cheaper more flexible vet bomb).

Aggressor bomb is now very good due to transhuman and -1. MSU bike squads are still solid. Vets are still king. We work best with 3 chaplain dreads, even more so now, so we can deny any armour targets. When they get canned in the FW update we will take the hit harder than any other SM faction imo.

Yep. Yepyepyep.

We work best with 3 chaplain dreads

Unless the do a new FW FAQ, DW Chaplain Bots don't get access to litanies, since they are specifically excluded from gaining them in the last FW FAQ...

EDIT: Wording from the FAQ:

Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought (excluding
Deathwatch, Space Wolves, Dark Angels and
Blood Angels models, as well as models from their
successor Chapters)
Add the Priest keyword

That's a shame but it wouldn't stop me from taking them for DW.

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
But it also means since I have the vanilla SM 2.0 codex I dont have to get WD for the rules
Just mark the stratagems that have been copy pasted

The biggest benefit from this update....don't actually have to buy it. I've already marked my SM codex with the strats I can use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
I've just had a good go at making a PA list to cheer me up - sorry, to me they just look *exactly* the same as pre-PA lists, with the possible exception of adding an autoboltriflebomb (but really, I don't think they'll be worth it compared to a cheaper more flexible vet bomb).
.

So what would you be looking to add from other marines, that would still feel like it was added to deathwatch (if we indeed got access to vanguard)?
Spearhead with 3x Eliminators? A simple patrol? Vanguard with 3x Invictus? And if so, what WTs, relics, custom traits are you going to take to make it feel "Deathwatch"?

That's a good question! Triple Eliminators for sure, because I think they're in the top-3 units in the game right now, probably as ravenguard. And then while I'm there, maybe an assault cent bomb to take the t1 heat, infiltrating forward, and a thunderfire. Not sure on the HQ choice...

I'm not so fussed with Invictors, as they seem to only do well with some threat saturation, which means running a mech-heavy army, and we can never pull that off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So yeah, something like 630pts of Ravenguard, and bonus points for keeping the black colour scheme going!

 grouchoben wrote:
That's a good question! Triple Eliminators for sure, because I think they're in the top-3 units in the game right now, probably as ravenguard. And then while I'm there, maybe an assault cent bomb to take the t1 heat, infiltrating forward, and a thunderfire. Not sure on the HQ choice...

If you're going for a Raven Guard (plus or minus succesor traits) plug in, a Phobos Captain with Marksmans Honors and the Korvidari Bolts is a personal favorite. 36" range sniper rifle that'll shoot through walls for a flat 4 damage at AP3 in Tac? Yes please. Only downside is that is somewhat requires Master Artisans to be reliable (S4 only goes so far). Park it midfield with Eliminators and Scouts and you've got the board control that DW desperately lacks.

And yes, you can do it purely via strats, even if you're double dipping on DW WL traits (despite both +1 WLT strats being named the same, their keywords are different, thus they dont run into the "different books but same strat" restrictions).

That is exactly how I run my Vanguard marines. A Raven supplementary force. I feel even more vindicated in that selection with the current doctrine system.

I already have a Ravenguard mostly vanguard army, may plug and play with some Deathwatch to see how it "feels" together. If I like it, I'll add some Vanguard with proper shoulder pads. Probably won't go full on Ravenguard rules though, I might try custom (although you do miss out on special wargear). My goal is to find the right setup that still screams Deathwatch, not what is the most powerful.

I feel that Raven Guard are the best flavor fit, that is why I chose them. The DW Kill Teams serve as your hammer and the Ravens serve as your scalpel and early board control. Their tactics work in unison to create a tactically sound force. The Raptors may even be better for flavor purposes, but lack a similar color scheme.

It fits my idea of DW perfectly to have Eliminators snipe out an Ork Warboss, or have Suppressors lock down overwatch for a charging Intergressor squad. I don't have any Incursors yet, but Infiltrators have been excellent for early board control and fairly resilient with smoke, RG tactics, and a Phobos Librarian keeping them safe.

If I'm souping I might go outside marines to be honest.

The big winner from our PA update is the storm bolter - it was already our best all-round weapon, but doctrines on the turn they most often DS is very signficant: it removes the one weakness of the weapon in that role. Honestly, I think the way forward with DW will be to run them as the minor partner in a soup list - a single batallion with 3 maxed-out vet squads, a jump cap with the beacon, and maybe a jumpchap to stack one squad to +2 to wound so they can chip damage if needs be.

That leaves around 1150-1200pts for board control and AT, with the three kill teams capable of dropping mucho pain on anything non-vehicle. That screams IG to me. Maybe Stygies.

Spec them to hold ground and slay marines, splurge all your cp on them, and leave everything else up to your other element.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So something like double IG batallion:

Batallion 1: Vostroyan
2 demolisher commanders
3 IS

Batallion 2: Emprah's Artillery Cadians (-2 cp)
tank commander
commander with aquila
3 IS
3 Astropaths
3 Basilisks, 2 with full payload

Then your DW contingent: jumpcap (w/beacon & relic sword), jumpchap, and 3 lots of:
2 termies
1 bike
1vanvet w/shield
5 vets w/shield
1 sarg with TH

16cp before teleportarium.

I have almost the same idea...Im basically waiting for the Knight PA update

If its any good Im going for the „old school“ style
Guard battalion plus knight plus deathwatch

Jinx! Yeah knights would be way cooler, hope their PA book is full of interesting stuff!

Well unless we pair with other Marines we lose the Combat Doctrines, so if we Soup with IG/Knights all we really get is Littanies (Which doesn't pair as well from Reserves) and about 3-4 useful Stratagems.

 grouchoben wrote:
If I'm souping I might go outside marines to be honest.

The big winner from our PA update is the storm bolter - it was already our best all-round weapon, but doctrines on the turn they most often DS is very signficant: it removes the one weakness of the weapon in that role. Honestly, I think the way forward with DW will be to run them as the minor partner in a soup list - a single batallion with 3 maxed-out vet squads, a jump cap with the beacon, and maybe a jumpchap to stack one squad to +2 to wound so they can chip damage if needs be.

That leaves around 1150-1200pts for board control and AT, with the three kill teams capable of dropping mucho pain on anything non-vehicle. That screams IG to me. Maybe Stygies.

Spec them to hold ground and slay marines, splurge all your cp on them, and leave everything else up to your other element.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So something like double IG batallion:

Batallion 1: Vostroyan
2 demolisher commanders
3 IS

Batallion 2: Emprah's Artillery Cadians (-2 cp)
tank commander
commander with aquila
3 IS
3 Astropaths
3 Basilisks, 2 with full payload

Then your DW contingent: jumpcap (w/beacon & relic sword), jumpchap, and 3 lots of:
2 termies
1 bike
1vanvet w/shield
5 vets w/shield
1 sarg with TH

16cp before teleportarium.

You lose Doctrines here, so I'm not really sure what the point is. You certainly aren't removing the weakness of the Storm Bolter any longer.

Looks like I forgot that simple rule! Darn, I was getting vaguely excited about nothing.

Just so! Going outside marines is fine, but really changes almost nothing from our previous incarnation. Finding what synergies are best with the various Astartes factions is probably the only tactical gain from the PA update.

At least doctrines still provides us with a way to access scouts, Thunderfires, Vanguard marines, and the rest of the datasheets that fit our flavor and fill in the gaps in our forces.

I for my part dont see such a big loss in losing doctrines...

The other only good Marine soup would be Iron Hands or RG
but if Knights get something good in PA Id trade combat doctrines for superior AT

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
I for my part dont see such a big loss in losing doctrines...

The other only good Marine soup would be Iron Hands or RG
but if Knights get something good in PA Id trade combat doctrines for superior AT

Certainly, but it's good to be aware.

And it does actually open up some good options for those Marine forces that are alright with giving up their super doctrine. If they were going to go ahead and bring things like bikes, Aggressors, Intercessors, Hellblasters, Sternguard, or other such units, they can now consider giving up that super doctrine for Kill Teams instead.

My own marine force is Imperial Fists, so I definitely won't be souping, but I wonder if things like White Scars, Salamanders, Ultramarines, maybe even Raven Guard, might be alright with giving up the doctrine bonus for some Kill Team love that nets more CP than filling out a Vanguard detachment would.

RG is probably top, however I did make a list with Blood Angels, they have some good synergy as well, and Libby Dread is beast.

I'm trying to sort out our best options to try to make a list to achieve Best in Faction so a pure DW list.
Semi-Smash Capt
JumpChap
3 Vet squads for DS
Max assault Intercessors
Max Aggressor Squad
MSU Bikes (Thunderhammer? Combi-Melta?)

After that trying to fill the holes. Perhaps some Chap dreads, Repluser Executioner?

A pair of Scorpius might be wirth proxying - they are a top-grade weapon only held back by their low strength. With a chap and WM support, getting both on +1 to wound with reroll hits and 1s to wound, with dev doctrine up, generates 17 dead Primaris or 12 damage on a 4++ knight. They seem a good match, benefitting from both of the DW buffs worth speaking of.

 grouchoben wrote:
A pair of Scorpius might be wirth proxying - they are a top-grade weapon only held back by their low strength. With a chap and WM support, getting both on +1 to wound with reroll hits and 1s to wound, with dev doctrine up, generates 17 dead Primaris or 12 damage on a 4++ knight. They seem a good match, benefitting from both of the DW buffs worth speaking of.

Chaplain's +1 To-Wound is against the closest target only, if I recall correctly.

 ChobitsCrazy wrote:
RG is probably top, however I did make a list with Blood Angels, they have some good synergy as well, and Libby Dread is beast.

Vet / Intercessor squads punching holes for a few smash characters plus a Sanguinary Guard brick or two sounds intriguing if nothing else.

I don't have the BA dex, so only going from what I've seen with BRs etc, but BA scouts seem decent (and give us cheaper screens), then fill with a few hard hitting characters. Their super doc is not amazing either, as it would kick in turn 3 at earliest, so no worry losing it.

I don't know much about Wolves, but their characters also seem beefy..

DA don't bring too much to the table that DW can't do already.

BA Incursors look promising as front-line shock troops. Their scouts are good enough for their price. Their Smash Captains are famous for a reason but doubling up when we want to use the Bacon (yes, bacon) Angelis seems redundant and CP heavy.

DA can bring an Azrael and Co. to create a back line castle if you need an anchor to stay on the board until your Kill Teams drop in. Their Hellblasters and Inceptors are nasty, but I feel hiding them in our NuMarine squads is honestly a more viable option.
Yeah, they don't add much overall.

@Chobits, Why not add an Aggressor to your Assault squad? The gains in movement are superior to to one rifle in a Bolstorm barrage, methinks. I personally don't care for Aggressors out of PriMarine squads, as having ObSec has been integral for me. (I never leave DW without an Intergressor assault squad. Such good bullies.)

Vortenger wrote:

@Chobits, Why not add an Aggressor to your Assault squad? The gains in movement are superior to to one rifle in a Bolstorm barrage, methinks. I personally don't care for Aggressors out of PriMarine squads, as having ObSec has been integral for me. (I never leave DW without an Intergressor assault squad. Such good bullies.)

That's a good point, I'll have to throw him in, I agree one intercessor would be a good drop for the mobility. Hell I could even take 5 Intercessors and 5 Aggressors Would end up a T5 unit with ablative wounds. The auto hit really comes in clutch for things like harlies and I can split their fire.

I'm a huge fan of DS 6-man aggressor bombs - before they were a bit fire and forget, now they got some lovely buffs. -1 on the turn they drop and a great choice for transhuman, and well positioned to use +wound litanies. In a clutch situation and if you can stack +1wound they can drop the equivalent of an average of 57 S8 -1 1d shots for some viable AT too.

They're a bargain for 222pts.

At a theoretical level is there a reason not to just go full Aggressor Spam? Because enough S4/AP-1 kills anything.

In a 2k list you could go 4 characters+6*5 intercessors/5 aggressors.
Or with less CP, 3 characters, 3*5 intercessors/5 aggressors, 3*6 aggressors, and have a few points to spend on other things.

I'm not a fan of one unit of the aggressors - because while they are a massive threat, they tend to just get focused and die, and they are not that cheap (although buffs may help.) So you never get the ability to double your firepower.

But if you bring about 30, advance up the table turn one, second turn you should have a lot of the board in 18" - and most of them will still be alive.

 grouchoben wrote:
I'm a huge fan of DS 6-man aggressor bombs - before they were a bit fire and forget, now they got some lovely buffs. -1 on the turn they drop and a great choice for transhuman, and well positioned to use +wound litanies. In a clutch situation and if you can stack +1wound they can drop the equivalent of an average of 57 S8 -1 1d shots for some viable AT too.

They're a bargain for 222pts.

I personally just mix them into the Intercessor kill teams to unlock CP with more battalions and add 10 T5 ablative wounds before the Aggressors start dropping.

And I'm always trying to get them into combat as soon as I can. With a power fist sarge that unit is throwing out like 24 power fist attacks on the charge.

 grouchoben wrote:
I'm a huge fan of DS 6-man aggressor bombs - before they were a bit fire and forget, now they got some lovely buffs. -1 on the turn they drop and a great choice for transhuman, and well positioned to use +wound litanies. In a clutch situation and if you can stack +1wound they can drop the equivalent of an average of 57 S8 -1 1d shots for some viable AT too.

They're a bargain for 222pts.

You can't use Litanies on a Deep Striking unit.