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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/03 01:50:48
Subject: I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Screaming Shining Spear
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One more thing about the Knight Worlds....read some Exodite fluff.
There were some extensive interworkings there as the exodites of the Maiden worlds and the Knight worlds were in constant conflict.
War Walkers, Scout Walkers, Webway portal strikes, and the 3 Eldar Knight Titans were common combatants on the Knight Worlds.
I cant remember now, but either the elder knight titans inspired the govenors of the the Knight Worlds to make Knight Titans or it was the reverse.
Destroyer Knight titan, bright stallion titan, andFire Gale titan
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koooaei wrote:We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/03 05:52:35
Subject: Re:I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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I belive thats been retconned but yes Imperial Knights (and wraith knights) have been a part of 40k since Epic
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/03 06:34:19
Subject: Re:I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Honored Helliarch on Hypex
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To be a little silly in relation to all of the gene-seed and men topic.
Think about it this way. Usually women get the 'gene-seed' inserted in them. In WH40k, it's the dudes who take in the seed XD
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/03 09:28:26
Subject: Re:I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Agile Revenant Titan
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44Ronin wrote: Ynneadwraith wrote:
That's not the same thing, is it?
You need to be tough to survive the process =/= your previous strength is directly related to your biologically modified strength.
It's relevant to the reason why females would be a lesser stock as a basis for space marines.
Because...
Because you're making the assumption that women of the 41st millennium, where gene-editing is commonplace and likely has been commonplace for tens of thousands of years, are comparable to the women of today. It's a flawed assumption.
44Ronin wrote:
Poor Strategy.
Instead of looking for needles in a male haystack, you are saying it is a good idea split your efforts into two, looking for needles in a male and female haystack when the female haystack has less needles in it AND the aspirants are more likely to die along the way....?
While I do understand the logic of 'too much hay', I don't necessarily agree with it. You're also making the same assumption I pointed out in the point above, which I haven't really seen any evidence supporting.
Geifer wrote:The hero focus has irked me for a while, and while I personally did not read the Gathering Storm, I read a couple of synopses with... disaffection. It's not new, but very much the culmination of a trend I would have never seen going as far as it does. The first time I noticed was in the 4th ed Ork codex where the special characters were written to pop up everywhere across the galaxy in spite of the established about 30-year lifespan an Ork was supposed to have. It just seemed wrong, but I dismissed it at the time.Talk about discontent ten years in the making!
I like that quote and it sums up my feelings about Marines. I like Marines. Always have. These days, yes, it's the memory of Marines that I like much more than the actual thing.
In my perception it doesn't even contradict what I said before about Marines having to pick their fights very carefully. When you say:
"The Imperium send in Space Marines when they want to fight on equal footing with the jacked up/daemonically possessed/biologically and genetically engineered/superhumanly fast/psychically powerful/technologically advanced forces that the galaxy holds"
I mean, that's pretty much where I'm coming from. This is not my interpretation of how the Imperium works. It's not how it can work, simply because it does not have the manpower to send Marines to fight an enemy on equal footing. That's the core of the idea of its slow decline. It send whoever it can. Imperial Guard, Battle Sisters, Arbites, the janitor and his pals because the Ministorum preacher convinced them it's their turn to die for the Emperor. They send whoever they can because it's all they can do, and then the Marines arrive and hopefully enough to tip the scales.
No argument about the power of Marines. They are great by human standards and they are humanity's greatest warriors (that can be fielded in effective numbers anyway). I personally wouldn't put many enemy line troops on their level, to be honest. Because on the flipside there also needs to be a reason why the appearance of Chaos Marines spells doom on Imperial worlds - Chaos armies are made up of dregs about as much as Imperial armies. Orks, too. Sure, they're strong, but badly armored with varying morale and combat experience (specifically against Marines anyway), so while an Ork could kill a Marine one on one, the Marine has a massive technological and tactical advantage. Tyranids are chaff, too. Spiky chaff that can penetrate power armor and impale Marines, but still little guys that are not particularly resilient to gunfire. And so on. Daemons and Necrons are honestly the only things I would consider as powerful and terrifying as Marines in their own, special way.
But mostly, it's pretty much a scenario that Marines are not basic troops and they are frequently portrayed as being superior to the enemy's basic troops. This works the opposite way, too. Because it doesn't matter how super jacked the enemy elites are because the Imperium can drown them in the blood of its Guardsmen.
Eh, I think I'm ranting now. My point really is that the important thing is not to rank things by their individual power. That's kind of how you get to the current super hero situation by constantly having to one-up the last thing. Super awesome Marines too awesome? Here, have a super villainous monster guy. But worry not! This here hero that you have never seen before is even super awesomer and beats up the super villainous monster guy after all.
Now this is personal preference, but I would much prefer if the setting was grounded again and that it's acknowledged that most of the fighting and dying and, importantly, winning is done by the grunts and all the special forces get to contribute to their side's eventual victory by playing a small but crucial part. Yeah, the special guys are super cool and crazy good at what they do, but they don't win wars on their own. And any one of them, without exception, can just get gunned down by enough of the little guys. At any time. Not just when it's convenient for Celestine to die again so that she can pop back up later at the crucial time to save the day.
Got to add that it may occasionally come across as if I'm knocking the new background for making overly large heroes out of Marines when before they were not. I mean, they were always intended to serve as the super heroes that could fix things no one else could so as to attract impressionable kids like me. Very much playing the super hero part, functionally. It's just now they're literal super heroes when before they were more the kind of hero you would see in Seals or SAS or what have you.
Agreed, and as an attempt to get slightly back on topic (and prove that I'm not just here to complain), there are some neat ideas that have come out of the idea that Space Marines are more often than not line troops. It does have to go hand in hand with Chapters being larger (say 100,000 at least) and fighting mostly as one force, but there's some really neat fluffy conversion opportunities.
Basically, the idea is that there are different types of Marines forces. At one end of the scale you have your Raven Guards and your Alpha Legions which operate much as you've described, like an SAS unit. On the other end of the scale you have your Imperial Fists and your Iron Warriors, which basically fight as line troops at the spearpoint of far larger forces.
The key change, and the thing that opens up fluffy conversion opportunities, is to assume that every Marine action we're told about is recorded much like the Battle of Thermopylae. Everyone remembers the 300 Spartans. No-one remembers the 700-1000 Helots that accompanied them. Or the 700 Thebans. Or the 1000 Arcadians. Or the other Greeks that made up the 7000-11,000 strong fighting force. So, basically, whenever I read about Marines fighting in isolation if they're not on a covert operation, I always assume that they basically go anywhere with relatively sizeable armies of Chapter Serfs. Any time you read about the Imperial Fists single-handedly beating back a xenos invasion, what you should actually read is 'the Imperial Fists and thousands upon thousands of their associated unnamed mooks beat back a xenos invasion'. These are also included whenever you hear them fighting alongside Guard regiments.
I can't seem to find it now, but it's supported by a piece of SM codex artwork where I think it's Imperial Fists filling most of the frame (not the one where there's ranks upon ranks of them). However, if you look closer there's dozens and dozens of weird-looking hangers-on around the periphery, suggesting that they're just one point in a vast militia army.
The thing that brings it into the realms of 'hell yeah this is an awesome idea' is when people go and model Chapter Serfs, like these two 'Expectanten' for the Black Templars:
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/03 13:48:59
Subject: I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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I always post my reasoning for Space marines being a boys only club.
1)The gene seed was desired from the emperors sons, meaning men, so not sure what would happen if you started mucking about with that.
2) I think of making a space marine like making a tuner car. Sure you can put in enough after market parts to make a Toyota Carolla just as fast and perform just as well as a tricked out Subaru WRX, but you are gonna need to put a lot more money and time into it. The WRX is a better starting ground.
3)(The most interesting one) Women were purposefully excluded from the gene seed as there ran the possibility of them being able to naturally reproduce space marine level humans, meaning space marines could be born rather then grown. This could possibly lead to the space marines realizing they can replace humanity as the superior strain of humanity. This how ever is not their goal, they are there to protect humanity, not replace it.
My two cents, like to get it out there before the thread turns into shrieking.
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/03 14:13:12
Subject: I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Agile Revenant Titan
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Backspacehacker wrote:I always post my reasoning for Space marines being a boys only club.
1)The gene seed was desired from the emperors sons, meaning men, so not sure what would happen if you started mucking about with that.
2) I think of making a space marine like making a tuner car. Sure you can put in enough after market parts to make a Toyota Carolla just as fast and perform just as well as a tricked out Subaru WRX, but you are gonna need to put a lot more money and time into it. The WRX is a better starting ground.
3)(The most interesting one) Women were purposefully excluded from the gene seed as there ran the possibility of them being able to naturally reproduce space marine level humans, meaning space marines could be born rather then grown. This could possibly lead to the space marines realizing they can replace humanity as the superior strain of humanity. This how ever is not their goal, they are there to protect humanity, not replace it.
My two cents, like to get it out there before the thread turns into shrieking.
You know, of all of those things the last one is the only thing that actually makes a modicum of sense from an in-universe perspective. I can absolutely see that being a solid motivation for not having female Space Marines (and also feels nicely grimdark)
One problem.
Space Marines are genetically human. If they could reproduce, you'd just get a boggo-standard human at the other end. The implants they receive are themselves genetically modified, but the actual genetics of the Marine themselves is 100% human. That's part of the way that they skirt around the whole dogma of 'the Holy Human Form'.
Shame, otherwise that would be a solid reason. Nice thinking.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/06 02:22:11
Subject: I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Lord of the Fleet
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Backspacehacker wrote:I always post my reasoning for Space marines being a boys only club.
1)The gene seed was desired from the emperors sons, meaning men, so not sure what would happen if you started mucking about with that.
2) I think of making a space marine like making a tuner car. Sure you can put in enough after market parts to make a Toyota Carolla just as fast and perform just as well as a tricked out Subaru WRX, but you are gonna need to put a lot more money and time into it. The WRX is a better starting ground.
3)(The most interesting one) Women were purposefully excluded from the gene seed as there ran the possibility of them being able to naturally reproduce space marine level humans, meaning space marines could be born rather then grown. This could possibly lead to the space marines realizing they can replace humanity as the superior strain of humanity. This how ever is not their goal, they are there to protect humanity, not replace it.
My two cents, like to get it out there before the thread turns into shrieking.
Ok, now to tear this down:
1)Primaris Marines, anyone? Because there is an epic fuckton more mucking about to get the results they did then just playing with gender. Also, Cursed Founding.
2)This is debatable, as, admittedly adjusting pure physical strength can best be done by altering the way the body handles the proteins Myostatin and Follistatin. Instead of using steroids, these can stimulate muscle growth directly. This alteration would produce similar results regardless of gender.
3) I have to file this one right up with someone being born with leeches stuck to them because their mother and father had leeches stuck to them. Many Space Marines go through a process where artificial organs are added to them during development (will cover this a bit more in a min) these organs are artificial tissues grown in hosts and then implanted into the developing Space Marine. While their may be some genetic modification (and most certainly is in the case of certain alternative methods of space marine production) what there is not is anything that would result in a new 'brand' of human (we'll get into the tar coated flaming moshpit that is Imperial genetics programs in a sec). It's about equivalent to having extensive bioware in Shadowrun.
Ok, now to go some dark places in 40k: human gene engineering and space marine production by alternate means.
As at least a few of you may know, not all Space Marines are produced by way of the 'standard' method: Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Black Templars all seem to deviate from the norm, with Wolves and Templars inducting people far past puberty into their organizations (Looking hard at you Lukas) And we all know that Blood Angels sparkle in the sunlight.
It's well known at this point that Emps & Co also had alternative ways to raise up a human to functionally Space Marine levels (Luther, etc etc). It's likely that some chapters do retain knowledge of this, which would explain certain characters having oddities in their backstory.
Further, biologically enhanced humans are a thing in 40k, citing the Rogue Trader RPG, the SoB story from BL where the admech has genetic supermen who can take on power armored battle sisters with their bare hands, and for those annoying posters who DEMAND IT MUST BE IN A CODEX FOR IT TO BE CANON: Afriel Strain and Gland Warriors
That's not even getting into Chaos, Honsu you sick, sick fether.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/06 02:28:40
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/06 06:34:25
Subject: Re:I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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Primaris Marines didn't rapidly change things, they added 3 new organs, all of the emperor's design, one was vvery specificly based off BASICLY a primarch pituitary gland.
this goes back to the note of them being based on the Primarchs, the Ossmodula, Biscepotia, and Magnificant may (weather all of them or some of them) simply work poorly, if at all, on a female. in fact on a female character the "Growth" instructions could have negitive effects producing some freak results.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/06 06:41:53
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/06 13:58:54
Subject: Re:I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Lord of the Fleet
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BrianDavion wrote:Primaris Marines didn't rapidly change things, they added 3 new organs, all of the emperor's design, one was vvery specificly based off BASICLY a primarch pituitary gland.
this goes back to the note of them being based on the Primarchs, the Ossmodula, Biscepotia, and Magnificant may (weather all of them or some of them) simply work poorly, if at all, on a female. in fact on a female character the "Growth" instructions could have negitive effects producing some freak results.
Let's look at that supposition:
The organs (in most circumstances) seem to require pre-pubescent children for successful implantation. This might be for a variety of reasons, but it also means that it works on girls, as girls and boys in this time frame in development have fairly similar testosterone and estrogen levels.(about 30 nanograms per decaliter). At this stage, if it has negative effects on females, it would have negative effects on males too. The organs can't be that specialized, genetically or hormonally or the human body rejects them and then dies. In order for it to be successful, and pretty much ANY chapters rites of passage have any relevance AT ALL to the process is if the organs' tissues are sufficiently similar to the hosts own tissues that it would not matter what gender they were, just that the individual organ either be so general and non reactive that anyone could be implanted, or so specific that they can only be implanted in that SPECIFIC person.
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Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/06 14:02:26
Subject: Re:I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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GW and biology do not mix. See reference in Rise of the Primarch to "jugular arteries" (hint: there is no such thing. There are jugular veins and carotid arteries but no jugular arteries).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/06 20:43:52
Subject: Re:I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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BaronIveagh wrote:BrianDavion wrote:Primaris Marines didn't rapidly change things, they added 3 new organs, all of the emperor's design, one was vvery specificly based off BASICLY a primarch pituitary gland.
this goes back to the note of them being based on the Primarchs, the Ossmodula, Biscepotia, and Magnificant may (weather all of them or some of them) simply work poorly, if at all, on a female. in fact on a female character the "Growth" instructions could have negitive effects producing some freak results.
Let's look at that supposition:
The organs (in most circumstances) seem to require pre-pubescent children for successful implantation. This might be for a variety of reasons, but it also means that it works on girls, as girls and boys in this time frame in development have fairly similar testosterone and estrogen levels.(about 30 nanograms per decaliter). At this stage, if it has negative effects on females, it would have negative effects on males too. The organs can't be that specialized, genetically or hormonally or the human body rejects them and then dies. In order for it to be successful, and pretty much ANY chapters rites of passage have any relevance AT ALL to the process is if the organs' tissues are sufficiently similar to the hosts own tissues that it would not matter what gender they were, just that the individual organ either be so general and non reactive that anyone could be implanted, or so specific that they can only be implanted in that SPECIFIC person.
Two ways you can go with this;
Either the implantation at this stage is taking advantage of the hormonally driven metamorphosis that is happening when a child reach pubescence to limit the impact of the implanted organs and as a natural change that can be enhanced. In which case it makes sense that they just picked young males for the process, the marine process is designed as an ultra-puberty in which you end up as a Marine rather than a mere-man and to add in women is going to be so much more complicated (first in man trials for pharmaceuticals are even just that, because it's easier to limit to variables rather than deal with a population with cyclical levels of hormones). I've not read enough of the Heresy books to know where the adult stage marines fall with regard to the powerlevel of more 'traditionally' recruited candidates - maybe they have a lot more surgery and augmentation in order to preserve experience and you've got skill, resources and knowledge to do this. Maybe the Emperor just sorts this out as a Gene-wizard. But if this is the case, picking girls as candidates isn't going to happen. Those that fake it and make it through to selection get picked up by the Inquisition as being persons of note or end up as Chapter Serfs (maybe even the Castellen if they're particularly good). Given that in terms of raw physical prowess and fighting, women's bodies have to make a lot of compromises for the sake of fertility (less space for lungs being the biggest and likely what has driven evolution to specialisation of other minor elements of the human form to having one version being better at fighting and the other surviving) if your transformation process is a a hijacking and enhancement of an existing one, you're going to pick males.
Alternatively, the massive hormone therapy, surgery and psycho indoctrination replaces normal human puberty. You take raw, immature, human flesh, ensure it's spirit is pure and then soak it in it's own stress chemicals, geneseed and pain until a marine is produced. Who you were before you became Telesandrus LXII of the Lions Argent is irrelevant, even to you. Your old life seems distant and somewhat irrelevant ever since you took the vows and became a defender of humanity on the galactic scale. Maybe you killed Grothaur the Mighty and took his head to the top of Mt Ascendancy to present to the Sky Warriors to prove yourself to your father, knowing that as long as you failed valiantly you'd be welcomed as a hero and the new chief on your return, or maybe you killed him because you'd been promised as his fourth wife and were having none of it,climbing the mountain to scream your defiance against this backward world to the universe's celestial champions themselves. You aren't who you were then and nor are any of your brothers, you are Telesandrus, sixty third of that name, of the Lions Argent chapter. And that's all that matters, not some trifling quirk of genetics. Who cares if you started XX or XY when you're now X*YGTLI. Come to think of it, Artemis is a girl's name, the Greek version of the Roman Goddess Dianna...and I can assure you that the greatest warriors of Mankind can't be taken out with a swift kick to the crotch.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/08/06 20:53:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/06 22:47:47
Subject: Re:I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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[DCM]
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FYI:
IF this is becoming a 'female space marines thread' it will also become a 'locked thread'.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/06 23:36:47
Subject: I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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[delete, didn't see alph's post]
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/06 23:37:01
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/07 01:08:15
Subject: Re:I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Lord of the Fleet
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Tastyfish wrote:Come to think of it, Artemis is a girl's name
o rly?
Alpharius wrote:FYI:
IF this is becoming a 'female space marines thread' it will also become a 'locked thread'.
We banning female space marine discussion now? Would seem to be relevant at this point, being that we're discussing the changes to fluff and it's further ranging impact as to what is and is not possible in 40k.
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Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/07 12:25:28
Subject: I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Stealthy Grot Snipa
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I have to ask this re female marines- marine models wear power armour and helmets. If you want to imagine them as female under the armour, and your opponent wants to imagine them as male, surely there's room to do that?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/07 14:34:00
Subject: Re:I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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[DCM]
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Again, given the title/intent of this thread, the fact that GW has not in fact said that, in the 'new GW fluff', there are female space marines OR even hinted that it is possible and soon to be upon us AND the fact that the "Female Space Marine" topic is almost impossible to do here (and maybe anywhere) successfully in terms of staying on topic and polite that yes, that it is off topic here and it will get the next person to post about it a warning/suspension and probably get this thread locked as well.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/08 06:47:09
Subject: Re:I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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the data on the Primaris project in codex space marines suggests Cawl wasn't really improving things hgimself, but rather simply was working on the empeor's notes and sliding a few bits of reverse engineered Primarch parts into space Marines. with this information it really brings what Cawl did down to earth there's no "super genius whom improved on the emperor's original design" here. just someone who sifted through the wreckage of the emperor's Laboratory to make anb upgrade. as people ntoed, this really wasn't much differant from what Corax did during the Heresy
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/08 08:22:46
Subject: Re:I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Agile Revenant Titan
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BrianDavion wrote:the data on the Primaris project in codex space marines suggests Cawl wasn't really improving things hgimself, but rather simply was working on the empeor's notes and sliding a few bits of reverse engineered Primarch parts into space Marines. with this information it really brings what Cawl did down to earth there's no "super genius whom improved on the emperor's original design" here. just someone who sifted through the wreckage of the emperor's Laboratory to make anb upgrade. as people ntoed, this really wasn't much differant from what Corax did during the Heresy
I quite like this interpretation. It really fits with the Mechanicum's MO which is less 'experiment -> improve' and more 'sift through the detritus of their destroyed civilisation -> parrot anything that appears to be working'.
Thanks for this little piece of headcanon  it's little things like this that make the new fluff more palatable.
The other potential is that he found the recipe for Thunder Warriors somewhere in the depths of Terra and is churning them out under the guise of 'Primaris Marines', which basically means that we should be getting Primaris having full-blown psychotic breaks soon which is not what you want in a post-human supersoldier it'd take two Astartes to down.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/08 08:24:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/08 18:44:24
Subject: Re:I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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well, the thunder warrior bit seems unlikely as we know what the Primaris new organs are. one is basicly coils of metal wrapped around the muscles greatly enhancing strength and giving additional protection. one is part of a organ unique to Primarchs (it notes it's only from half of it the data on the other half have been lsot "Weather by some misfortune or the design of the emperor no one can say") that increases speed and bone density growth. and the other is basicly something that links the two hearts that when the body is placed udner strain floods it with basicly an improved adrenaline and increases healing.
apparently though all these new organs are based on the Primarchs. (hence where the name Primaris likely comes from, closer to the Primarchs)
of intreast to those whom do not have codex space marines I'll list each of the new organs here
-Sinew Coils (The Steel Within) - The Primaris Space Marine's sinews are reinforced with durametallic coil-cables that can contract with incredible force, magnifying his strength as well as giving his body another layer of defence. A Primaris Space Marine can crush a man's skull in his hand, break Flak Armour to flinders, or even bite through a metal cable should the need arise.
-Magnificat (The Amplifier) - A small, thumbnail-sized lobe that is inserted into the brain's cortex. The Magnificat secretes hormones that increase the body's growth functions whilst also intensifying the function of its other transhuman implants, especially those of the Biscopea and the Ossmodula. In truth, the Magnificat is but half of the true, dual-valve Immortis Gland (the so-called God-Maker) that the Emperor created for His Primarchs. However, Archmagos Cawl could only find materials and genetic blueprints to build the Dextrophic Lobe (the right half of the Immortis Gland), while plans for the Sintarius (the left half) that would complete the original super-organ had been wholly eradicated from Imperial records of the Primarch Project. Whether this was done by the Emperor's own hand or by some nefarious source, Cawl could not tell.
-Belisarian Furnace (The Revitaliser) - This is a dormant organ that connects to both Astartes hearts. In times of extreme stress, or should the warrior's body undergo violent, damaging trauma, it expels great blurts of self-synthesized chemicals -- a hyper-cocktail that simulates the biological action of combat stimms while also aiding in the rapid regrowth of tissue, bone and muscle. The gland then falls dormant again, and takes some time to metabolically build itself up once more for the next usage.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/08 18:47:44
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/10 13:42:47
Subject: I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Tough Traitorous Guardsman
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Been out of the loop for a while so I was very suprised to see said Supermarines and the Primarch back around.
Question regarding if the Primaris Marines end up replacing the SMs entirely and a reason I think it might not happen - what happens to Chaos Marines?
Or in fluff has Fabius Bile nicked the blueprints? Even then you're dealing with a lot of fluff bashing. I mean really if the Primaris become the SM's regulars suddenly the CSM look pretty puny.
Also from being out of the loop, I partly wanted to ease back in with the new edition, the easy way to do that is buy some cheap SMs off eBay but is that wise?
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Oh What a Lovely War. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/10 14:05:45
Subject: I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Jape wrote:Been out of the loop for a while so I was very suprised to see said Supermarines and the Primarch back around.
Question regarding if the Primaris Marines end up replacing the SMs entirely and a reason I think it might not happen - what happens to Chaos Marines?
Or in fluff has Fabius Bile nicked the blueprints? Even then you're dealing with a lot of fluff bashing. I mean really if the Primaris become the SM's regulars suddenly the CSM look pretty puny.
Also from being out of the loop, I partly wanted to ease back in with the new edition, the easy way to do that is buy some cheap SMs off eBay but is that wise?
Well Primaris are already set up lore wise to have chaos counter parts, Cawl was wanting to use traitor legion gene seed to make primaris as well, so its not a short step to having them turn as well. Im betting by 2 years time regular space marines will be what empire is in AoS. Sure they still make models and acknowledge their existence in the lore, but you will never see a new release for them ever again.
As for the easiest way to get back in, if your not really to worried about the cash, Knights. 4 knights comes out to about 2k points and they are pretty damn reliable now so.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/10 14:57:53
Subject: I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Tough Traitorous Guardsman
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Backspacehacker wrote:
Well Primaris are already set up lore wise to have chaos counter parts, Cawl was wanting to use traitor legion gene seed to make primaris as well, so its not a short step to having them turn as well. Im betting by 2 years time regular space marines will be what empire is in AoS. Sure they still make models and acknowledge their existence in the lore, but you will never see a new release for them ever again.
As for the easiest way to get back in, if your not really to worried about the cash, Knights. 4 knights comes out to about 2k points and they are pretty damn reliable now so.
Oh... so Cawl did make Traitor-gene Primari?
That actually seems the biggest loss to fluff you could have is the swap shop scenario you suggest (and makes sense), these new Traitor Primari would not have 10 millennia of backstory. New types of SMs fine, there's new foundings all the time (in the grand scheme of things) but the CSM are what they are because of their ancient lineage. And it would be pretty idiotic for them to be created in the first place, certainly by the Imperium but that's never stopped the writers before. Just reading the overview of the Beast novels made my head hurt.
But whatever yeah taking AoS into account yeah that makes sense and once they push through some clunky fluff by 2020 both will be biggun'
Also I've just remembered a friend who moved to work at GW HQ mentioned casually some time ago they planned on making SMs more to scale.
He also mentioned Nottingham cabbies refer to GW HQ as "the Fuhrerbunker"
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EDIT: and thanks for the advice on Knights but no I'm not a fan of armies just made up of a few giants.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/10 15:02:35
Oh What a Lovely War. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/10 15:07:28
Subject: I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Lol I could see that haha honestly three whole primaris marine launch was very clunky and forced. All they really had to do was say we brought thunder warriors back and no one would have said a word. Or say these are true scale with new war gear. Igor no problem with true scale like the size of thousand sons which are true scale. Automatically Appended Next Post: He has not made them yet but he wants to
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/10 15:07:54
To many unpainted models to count. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/10 15:11:25
Subject: I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc
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I'm in the same boat- I've been playing since the early '90s, and the primaris fluff feels wrong to me.
Astartes are supposed to be super amazing- and they're supposed to live exceptionally long lives (Dante is hundreds of years old, and I'm not sure how old Logan Grimnar is).
It feels wrong to me for them to be completely surpassed by the new marines on the block.
And what is the trouble with the traitor legions becoming more Primaris? Well, the chaos characters that we know and love/hate/seek to destroy are all 10k years old. If traitor Primaris marines take over chaos, I think it would undermine Ahriman, Typhus, Abbadon etc. I mean, traitor Primaris marines are the ones without a ten-thousand year old grudge.
Now, on the other hand, I do love the new minis. I especially love the way that the new Marine proportions are more human (less 'heroic) than previous marines. That's something that I've been wanting (and honestly never suspected that GW would do).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/10 15:22:54
Subject: I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Oh yeah models are great, that said I really dislike the gravis armor looks....off and the balloon marines again gravis. But mk 10 armor is on point
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/10 16:20:05
Subject: I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Tough Traitorous Guardsman
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odinsgrandson wrote:
And what is the trouble with the traitor legions becoming more Primaris? Well, the chaos characters that we know and love/hate/seek to destroy are all 10k years old. If traitor Primaris marines take over chaos, I think it would undermine Ahriman, Typhus, Abbadon etc. I mean, traitor Primaris marines are the ones without a ten-thousand year old grudge.
My thoughts exactly. TBH I'm expecting some Chaos magic handwavium with the souls of the old CSM going into their bodies of the new, or at least the big boys dunno - maybe.
Feels like they could have just introduced the models and said 'hey these are proper scale keep using your old minis if you want but they'll look dumb next to these new shiny cool ones"
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Oh What a Lovely War. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/10 16:33:43
Subject: I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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That's what I have been saying
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/10 16:49:50
Subject: I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
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I would be interested to see if IG/AM new models come out and they become smaller and more realistic to better contrast primaris.
I am thinking due to so many good looking competitor models with nice proportions that GW may be moving away from the heroic thick models.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/10 16:50:13
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/10 17:23:14
Subject: Re:I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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i think the Chaos Primaris-equivalent will be Marines that have been possessed or gifted by Chaos or some such rather than just traitor Primaris. I get the feeling they're going to try and differentiate them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/10 21:14:37
Subject: I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...
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Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc
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Talizvar wrote:I would be interested to see if IG/ AM new models come out and they become smaller and more realistic to better contrast primaris.
I am thinking due to so many good looking competitor models with nice proportions that GW may be moving away from the heroic thick models.
I wouldn't bet on it. AoS is definitely not moving in that direction.
And I'm sure that new human minis won't be any smaller. Scale creep is a one way road.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/10 21:15:20
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