Switch Theme:

I'm conflicted about the new GW fluff...  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Never-Miss Nightwing Pilot






I thought Knights were irreplacable archaeotech. They can be fixed for the most part if they're wrecked in battle, but humanity doesn't have the capability to produce new ones.

May well be talking out of my backside with that one as I'm not overly familiar with the fluff, but even if it's headcanon that would sort out the issues with why they're not attached as support to other factions.

Either that, the Horus Heresy thing with the splitting of the armed forces, or perhaps they just don't suit the Astartes' method of combat.

As far as I can tell, the Astartes aren't for conventional warfare. They're shock troops that primarily assault via orbital drop in sudden, unexpected strikes at priority targets. Dreads work nicely as heavy support for this as you can fit one in a Drop Pod, and presumably smaller vehicles like the Rhino and Whirlwind are able to be airdropped too.

Now, again I'm unfamiliar with just how Knights get onto the battlefield, but I'm imagining they'll have to be dropped in a designated landing zone and then walk/be transported to the front. That's pretty much entirely at odds with the Astartes' role on the battlefield.

Why they're not suited to Astartes, they are probably well suited to the Guard. However, I doubt the Guard would get them for the same reason they don't get Bolters or even Carapace Armour for the most part. If a Lasgun and Flak Armour is already valued higher than the dude who's using them, you're not going to give him a 50ft tall mech suit.

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in us
Changing Our Legion's Name




Well first thing is that similarly to Titans knight pilots have to have a certaint degree of mental fortitude to control the machine spirits within their knights. That's something that the average guardsmen isn't up too.
Similarly The whole argument of wouldn't it be great for them to be given to marines or sisters is moot precisely because of what I mentioned before, separation of power and compartmentalization. Most of these Knight houses are not direct vassals like most humans but operate via an agreement like Marines or Mechanicum. Their power comes from a monopoly on Knights so why would they give that power away? Similarly, what would the Imperium want to give knight type systems to the guard regiments, or sisters, or marines vastly expanding their capabilities on the ground? If any of those units went rogue then the Loyalist would have to deal with those knights as well, butt he rebel knights will have infantry support as wel!

Better to keep the organizations safely separate so rebellious elements either don't have super heavy Support or don't have infantry support. Besides it's not like knights are as easy to make as a rhino, they are on par with baneblades in size and complexity and upkeep, which means they are already limited in production scope. Over all the feudal system of military support with which the knights operate is enough to provide the imperium with enough knight chassis for their military needs as is, and it's a system that has existed for more than 10,000 years, it's certainly not something that would change overnight.

Also the knights did exist in the HH time period, they have been seen in black library novels and also extensively in the HH series from FW.

“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors 
   
Made in gb
Never-Miss Nightwing Pilot






agurus1 wrote:
Well first thing is that similarly to Titans knight pilots have to have a certaint degree of mental fortitude to control the machine spirits within their knights. That's something that the average guardsmen isn't up too.
Similarly The whole argument of wouldn't it be great for them to be given to marines or sisters is moot precisely because of what I mentioned before, separation of power and compartmentalization. Most of these Knight houses are not direct vassals like most humans but operate via an agreement like Marines or Mechanicum. Their power comes from a monopoly on Knights so why would they give that power away? Similarly, what would the Imperium want to give knight type systems to the guard regiments, or sisters, or marines vastly expanding their capabilities on the ground? If any of those units went rogue then the Loyalist would have to deal with those knights as well, butt he rebel knights will have infantry support as wel!

Better to keep the organizations safely separate so rebellious elements either don't have super heavy Support or don't have infantry support. Besides it's not like knights are as easy to make as a rhino, they are on par with baneblades in size and complexity and upkeep, which means they are already limited in production scope. Over all the feudal system of military support with which the knights operate is enough to provide the imperium with enough knight chassis for their military needs as is, and it's a system that has existed for more than 10,000 years, it's certainly not something that would change overnight.

Also the knights did exist in the HH time period, they have been seen in black library novels and also extensively in the HH series from FW.


All of those are solid points.

The only one i would query is the 'mental fortitude' thing. If the Knight Worlds with their comparatively small populations can produce enough pilots then the millions upon millions of worlds of the Guard can certainly produce enough.

Everything else still stands as good points though

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in us
Changing Our Legion's Name




Well I think the mental fortitude thing is possibly explained in the fluff as a genetic trait at this point as a by product of generations of the same family's operating those machines but I could be wrong. It could even be related to the machine spirit recognizing the distinct mental quirks of a particular family but that more head fluff for me lol

Edit: also as far as the millions and millions of worlds, even with all that only an iota of people are strong enough to control a battle Titan of the Mechanicum, maybe that iota plus another iota could man knight Titans then since they are smaller? But even then half of those are taken to titan training grounds to prove their metal, and the other half likely wallows in obscurity without being found lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/19 21:14:44


“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors 
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 Ynneadwraith wrote:
agurus1 wrote:
Well first thing is that similarly to Titans knight pilots have to have a certaint degree of mental fortitude to control the machine spirits within their knights. That's something that the average guardsmen isn't up too.
Similarly The whole argument of wouldn't it be great for them to be given to marines or sisters is moot precisely because of what I mentioned before, separation of power and compartmentalization. Most of these Knight houses are not direct vassals like most humans but operate via an agreement like Marines or Mechanicum. Their power comes from a monopoly on Knights so why would they give that power away? Similarly, what would the Imperium want to give knight type systems to the guard regiments, or sisters, or marines vastly expanding their capabilities on the ground? If any of those units went rogue then the Loyalist would have to deal with those knights as well, butt he rebel knights will have infantry support as wel!

Better to keep the organizations safely separate so rebellious elements either don't have super heavy Support or don't have infantry support. Besides it's not like knights are as easy to make as a rhino, they are on par with baneblades in size and complexity and upkeep, which means they are already limited in production scope. Over all the feudal system of military support with which the knights operate is enough to provide the imperium with enough knight chassis for their military needs as is, and it's a system that has existed for more than 10,000 years, it's certainly not something that would change overnight.

Also the knights did exist in the HH time period, they have been seen in black library novels and also extensively in the HH series from FW.


All of those are solid points.

The only one i would query is the 'mental fortitude' thing. If the Knight Worlds with their comparatively small populations can produce enough pilots then the millions upon millions of worlds of the Guard can certainly produce enough.

Everything else still stands as good points though


keep in mind given what we know about knights they seem to shape those whom pilot them into more their liking. hand a guard regiment a dozen knights and before you know it you'd likely have a new knightly order indistingiushable from the rest

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Yokosuka, Japan

GodDamUser wrote:
 argonak wrote:
Because the Imperium of Man (and its subsidiary organizations) is a bureaucratic and feudal theocracy of fanatical luddites.


pretty much that.

But the Knight households originated on Mars and many did colonise the stars as with much of humanity in the Period before the Dark Age of Technology

The Knights have always had close ties with the mechanicum, as they were originally the protectors of the Forges


Unless fluff has changed, the Knights were dark age colonies using a colony defense STC system that had a weird bug in the software that made the drivers act like protective feudal lords. These colonies were contacted by Mars during the pre-imperium days when they were sending out their colony ships. In exchange for assistance in repairing their Knights, the knight world's swore loyalty to Mars, and when Mars swore loyalty to the Emperor, became subsidiaries. Its why they were always in the Titan Legions.

edit: Just read the lexicanum, and it looks like it was retconned at some point. The Adeptus gave the knight world's the Knights. That's an odd retcon to make in my opinion, but ok.

edit2: Ok I actually find this annoying. If the mechanicum gave them the knights, why the hell isn't the mechanicum giving them to anyone else, or using them themselves? The luddite theocracy argument doesn't work since these things are literally coming from the forgeworlds right now.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/20 04:50:51


 
   
Made in gb
Never-Miss Nightwing Pilot






 argonak wrote:
GodDamUser wrote:
 argonak wrote:
Because the Imperium of Man (and its subsidiary organizations) is a bureaucratic and feudal theocracy of fanatical luddites.


pretty much that.

But the Knight households originated on Mars and many did colonise the stars as with much of humanity in the Period before the Dark Age of Technology

The Knights have always had close ties with the mechanicum, as they were originally the protectors of the Forges


Unless fluff has changed, the Knights were dark age colonies using a colony defense STC system that had a weird bug in the software that made the drivers act like protective feudal lords. These colonies were contacted by Mars during the pre-imperium days when they were sending out their colony ships. In exchange for assistance in repairing their Knights, the knight world's swore loyalty to Mars, and when Mars swore loyalty to the Emperor, became subsidiaries. Its why they were always in the Titan Legions.

edit: Just read the lexicanum, and it looks like it was retconned at some point. The Adeptus gave the knight world's the Knights. That's an odd retcon to make in my opinion, but ok.

edit2: Ok I actually find this annoying. If the mechanicum gave them the knights, why the hell isn't the mechanicum giving them to anyone else, or using them themselves? The luddite theocracy argument doesn't work since these things are literally coming from the forgeworlds right now.


Oh man that is a stupid retcon. I'm with you now on the stupidness of Knight fluff. That makes no sense.

I'm just going to headcanon away the stupid and have them back to being DAoT fringe colonies using colony defence STCs. Not only does it just make more sense, but it's a more novel idea too and has more narrative potential.

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in us
Changing Our Legion's Name




I thought that the Knights were heavy civilian STC machinery for like clearing trees and stuff? Over time after Old Nignt fell, they had to fit them with offensive weaponry to protect their colonies and after that kinda evolved the feudal system we recognize today. Where's the fluff that the Mech gave them the knights?

“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors 
   
Made in jp
Regular Dakkanaut





Yokosuka, Japan

agurus1 wrote:
I thought that the Knights were heavy civilian STC machinery for like clearing trees and stuff? Over time after Old Nignt fell, they had to fit them with offensive weaponry to protect their colonies and after that kinda evolved the feudal system we recognize today. Where's the fluff that the Mech gave them the knights?


It's on the lexicanum. It has an oblique mention of the retcon itself.

The most important innovation that the Tech-priests brought to the Knight Worlds were the fighting machines called Knights. These machines were one-man versions of a Titan, much smaller and less powerful than a real Titan, but far better suited to the mobile style of warfare prevalent amongst the nobility of the Knight Worlds.[Needs Citation]



When Knights were introduced in White Dwarf 126, they originated during the Dark Age of Technology from agricultural worlds whose human inhabitants had copied farming techniques learned from Eldar Exodites already present on them. The humans began utilising combat walkers invented by the Eldar and referred to them as "Knights". In a period referred to by the Exodites as The Coming of Men, the xenos and the human colonists clashed in a number of bloody conflicts as the Eldar Knights sought to protect their homes from the colonists.[3]

When these planets were cut off in the Age of Strife a warrior aristocracy rose to prominence amongst its human populations, mimicking the lifestyle of the Eldar Clans. These planets were rediscovered by Rogue Trader Jeffers and brought into the newborn Imperium of Man. Most often Knight Worlds became affiliated with a particular Titan Forge World, supplying it with food and raw materials, whilst its Sacristans would fall under the control of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Other Knight Worlds were left with a large degree of autonomy, required only to produce food and obey the call to arms when it was given.[3]


You're right about the agriculture thing, although i feel like there was an intermediate retcon somewhere too, because I swear there was something about a software bug making them act like feudal lords.

Oh well. I still love silly battlemechs so I can get over it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/21 20:37:04


 
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar





the 7th edition IK codex states that Knight world had knights already. the Lexnicum bit of fluff might be old and out of date lore.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator






BrianDavion wrote:
the 7th edition IK codex states that Knight world had knights already. the Lexnicum bit of fluff might be old and out of date lore.
This. The 7th ed codex lines up with:
 argonak wrote:
the Knights were dark age colonies using a colony defense STC system that had a weird bug in the software that made the drivers act like protective feudal lords.

Then when the Emperor did his grand crusade whatnot to reunite humanity the Knight worlds were incorporated into the fold. Some of them ended up swearing fealty to Mars in exchange for tech assistance. Though I will say it is stated that the behavior-altering properties of the Knight technology may be a bug or may be an intentional inclusion to predispose them against being corrupted or turning renegade.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/21 21:08:35


Looking for a balanced Age of Sigmar? Tired of your favorite unit gathering dust because it's bad in Matched Play? Want a discount for not bringing the best possible weapon option? Try Project Points Cost!

PPC points are easily swapped out with those of Matched Play and include all models, unit upgrades, battalions, and terrain warscrolls!

Check it out at: http://ageofwargamers.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in jp
Regular Dakkanaut





Yokosuka, Japan

Thanks guys, I just dug up my copy and you are right on. It's on page 10. That must have been where I was initially remembering. Nice since that's the fluff I prefer anyway.
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar





this is the problem with some of the various 40k wikis out there. there's a lot of old retconned material that they sometimes try to kludge in anyway

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Never-Miss Nightwing Pilot






 NinthMusketeer wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the 7th edition IK codex states that Knight world had knights already. the Lexnicum bit of fluff might be old and out of date lore.
This. The 7th ed codex lines up with:
 argonak wrote:
the Knights were dark age colonies using a colony defense STC system that had a weird bug in the software that made the drivers act like protective feudal lords.

Then when the Emperor did his grand crusade whatnot to reunite humanity the Knight worlds were incorporated into the fold. Some of them ended up swearing fealty to Mars in exchange for tech assistance. Though I will say it is stated that the behavior-altering properties of the Knight technology may be a bug or may be an intentional inclusion to predispose them against being corrupted or turning renegade.


Ah good. That's much more believable to me

Also, great job on the software glitch anti-chaos predisposition. Whoever did that piece of work (in-universe) deserves a pat on the back. Worked like a charm...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/22 08:55:48


Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: