agurus1 wrote:
Well first thing is that similarly to Titans knight pilots have to have a certaint degree of mental fortitude to control the machine spirits within their knights. That's something that the average guardsmen isn't up too.
Similarly The whole argument of wouldn't it be great for them to be given to marines or sisters is moot precisely because of what I mentioned before, separation of power and compartmentalization. Most of these Knight houses are not direct vassals like most humans but operate via an agreement like Marines or Mechanicum. Their power comes from a monopoly on Knights so why would they give that power away? Similarly, what would the Imperium want to give knight type systems to the guard regiments, or sisters, or marines vastly expanding their capabilities on the ground? If any of those units went rogue then the Loyalist would have to deal with those knights as well, butt he rebel knights will have infantry support as wel!

Better to keep the organizations safely separate so rebellious elements either don't have super heavy Support or don't have infantry support. Besides it's not like knights are as easy to make as a rhino, they are on par with baneblades in size and complexity and upkeep, which means they are already limited in production scope. Over all the feudal system of military support with which the knights operate is enough to provide the imperium with enough knight chassis for their military needs as is, and it's a system that has existed for more than 10,000 years, it's certainly not something that would change overnight.

Also the knights did exist in the HH time period, they have been seen in black library novels and also extensively in the HH series from FW.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

agurus1 wrote:
Well first thing is that similarly to Titans knight pilots have to have a certaint degree of mental fortitude to control the machine spirits within their knights. That's something that the average guardsmen isn't up too.
Similarly The whole argument of wouldn't it be great for them to be given to marines or sisters is moot precisely because of what I mentioned before, separation of power and compartmentalization. Most of these Knight houses are not direct vassals like most humans but operate via an agreement like Marines or Mechanicum. Their power comes from a monopoly on Knights so why would they give that power away? Similarly, what would the Imperium want to give knight type systems to the guard regiments, or sisters, or marines vastly expanding their capabilities on the ground? If any of those units went rogue then the Loyalist would have to deal with those knights as well, butt he rebel knights will have infantry support as wel!

Better to keep the organizations safely separate so rebellious elements either don't have super heavy Support or don't have infantry support. Besides it's not like knights are as easy to make as a rhino, they are on par with baneblades in size and complexity and upkeep, which means they are already limited in production scope. Over all the feudal system of military support with which the knights operate is enough to provide the imperium with enough knight chassis for their military needs as is, and it's a system that has existed for more than 10,000 years, it's certainly not something that would change overnight.

Also the knights did exist in the HH time period, they have been seen in black library novels and also extensively in the HH series from FW.

All of those are solid points.

The only one i would query is the 'mental fortitude' thing. If the Knight Worlds with their comparatively small populations can produce enough pilots then the millions upon millions of worlds of the Guard can certainly produce enough.

Everything else still stands as good points though

GodDamUser wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Because the Imperium of Man (and its subsidiary organizations) is a bureaucratic and feudal theocracy of fanatical luddites.

pretty much that.

But the Knight households originated on Mars and many did colonise the stars as with much of humanity in the Period before the Dark Age of Technology

The Knights have always had close ties with the mechanicum, as they were originally the protectors of the Forges

 argonak wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Because the Imperium of Man (and its subsidiary organizations) is a bureaucratic and feudal theocracy of fanatical luddites.

pretty much that.

But the Knight households originated on Mars and many did colonise the stars as with much of humanity in the Period before the Dark Age of Technology

The Knights have always had close ties with the mechanicum, as they were originally the protectors of the Forges

Unless fluff has changed, the Knights were dark age colonies using a colony defense STC system that had a weird bug in the software that made the drivers act like protective feudal lords. These colonies were contacted by Mars during the pre-imperium days when they were sending out their colony ships. In exchange for assistance in repairing their Knights, the knight world's swore loyalty to Mars, and when Mars swore loyalty to the Emperor, became subsidiaries. Its why they were always in the Titan Legions.

edit: Just read the lexicanum, and it looks like it was retconned at some point. The Adeptus gave the knight world's the Knights. That's an odd retcon to make in my opinion, but ok.

edit2: Ok I actually find this annoying. If the mechanicum gave them the knights, why the hell isn't the mechanicum giving them to anyone else, or using them themselves? The luddite theocracy argument doesn't work since these things are literally coming from the forgeworlds right now.

agurus1 wrote:
I thought that the Knights were heavy civilian STC machinery for like clearing trees and stuff? Over time after Old Nignt fell, they had to fit them with offensive weaponry to protect their colonies and after that kinda evolved the feudal system we recognize today. Where's the fluff that the Mech gave them the knights?

The most important innovation that the Tech-priests brought to the Knight Worlds were the fighting machines called Knights. These machines were one-man versions of a Titan, much smaller and less powerful than a real Titan, but far better suited to the mobile style of warfare prevalent amongst the nobility of the Knight Worlds.[Needs Citation]

When Knights were introduced in White Dwarf 126, they originated during the Dark Age of Technology from agricultural worlds whose human inhabitants had copied farming techniques learned from Eldar Exodites already present on them. The humans began utilising combat walkers invented by the Eldar and referred to them as "Knights". In a period referred to by the Exodites as The Coming of Men, the xenos and the human colonists clashed in a number of bloody conflicts as the Eldar Knights sought to protect their homes from the colonists.[3]

When these planets were cut off in the Age of Strife a warrior aristocracy rose to prominence amongst its human populations, mimicking the lifestyle of the Eldar Clans. These planets were rediscovered by Rogue Trader Jeffers and brought into the newborn Imperium of Man. Most often Knight Worlds became affiliated with a particular Titan Forge World, supplying it with food and raw materials, whilst its Sacristans would fall under the control of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Other Knight Worlds were left with a large degree of autonomy, required only to produce food and obey the call to arms when it was given.[3]

BrianDavion wrote:
the 7th edition IK codex states that Knight world had knights already. the Lexnicum bit of fluff might be old and out of date lore.

 argonak wrote:
the Knights were dark age colonies using a colony defense STC system that had a weird bug in the software that made the drivers act like protective feudal lords.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the 7th edition IK codex states that Knight world had knights already. the Lexnicum bit of fluff might be old and out of date lore.

This. The 7th ed codex lines up with:

 argonak wrote:
the Knights were dark age colonies using a colony defense STC system that had a weird bug in the software that made the drivers act like protective feudal lords.

Then when the Emperor did his grand crusade whatnot to reunite humanity the Knight worlds were incorporated into the fold. Some of them ended up swearing fealty to Mars in exchange for tech assistance. Though I will say it is stated that the behavior-altering properties of the Knight technology may be a bug or may be an intentional inclusion to predispose them against being corrupted or turning renegade.

nareik wrote:
Does anyone else feel like Crawl is hugely over performing, similar to Horus during the Crusade?

I can't be the only one who sees this? He is achieving the impossible. Is this due to bad writing, or is he being set up for a fall?

 BunkhouseBuster wrote:
Plus, I had read/heard somewhere (anecdotally as well) about British copyright laws not protecting an "image" after 30 years, which is how old Space Marines are as an aesthetic at that scale. So it might be possible that the Primaris Marines are just different enough in shape/style/image to renew that copyright protection. If that is the case, then these massive aesthetic shakeups make perfect sense from a business perspective - you can't have other people copying and selling your product.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
I think what bugs me about new fluff is it's not terribly origional, even by GW standards.

"We'll move the story along by having Chaos win, right, and it'll all 'Noooo, this is terrible!' and we'll be all, 'but hold on, there's still hope, that guy whose in the backstory prepared for this and he's got these new guys in even cooler armour who you can buy for £40 for five come in and save the day!'

They basically just did age of Sigmar again, and I was annoyed enough about that the first time. Grimgor Ironhide headbutter Archaon until his face imploded and we all know it, GW. Just because you sued someone who was ready for you...

I think what bugs me most, though, is that after 10,000 years of tinkering with the Gene Seed they apparently didn't take out the 'Ewww, girls are icky' gene. I mean, seriously, you'd think that would be a priority more than 'Make them a little taller, it'll really scare those Traitor marines'. I know the Primaris have a few other advantages...but you'd think being able to create twice as many Marines would be more of one.

 argonak wrote:


Marine creation isn't limited by candidates, its limited by geneseed. There's more than enough candidates in the Imperium. Opening it up to females would give no benefit. Not that I would have anything against it if they did. It is science fiction after all.

 Jon Garrett wrote:

 argonak wrote:


Marine creation isn't limited by candidates, its limited by geneseed. There's more than enough candidates in the Imperium. Opening it up to females would give no benefit. Not that I would have anything against it if they did. It is science fiction after all.

I know that was true of the old Marines - although obviously with more potential candidates, even more rigorous standards could be held, limiting the number of failures and turned to Chaos further - but I'm not as familiar with the fluff about the new ones. I know canidates were important - Chapters get really shirty about loosing the worlds they recruit from for a reason - but Gene Seed issues were the bigger problem. However, I was under the impression that they were able to make more Primaris Gene-Seed far faster than the old Marine ones. I could be wrong about that, though.

Still, it feels like a missed opportunity to modernize the game and start making it so those pictures of Hobby stores don't include eight smiling dudes. Since the old excuse for no female marines was 'Oh, we can't tinker with the Gene-Seed or alter it and, shucks, it only works on guys right now...' that excuse is gone. We know it's been tinkered with again. There's a whole model line dedicated to it.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:

 argonak wrote:


Marine creation isn't limited by candidates, its limited by geneseed. There's more than enough candidates in the Imperium. Opening it up to females would give no benefit. Not that I would have anything against it if they did. It is science fiction after all.

I know that was true of the old Marines - although obviously with more potential candidates, even more rigorous standards could be held, limiting the number of failures and turned to Chaos further - but I'm not as familiar with the fluff about the new ones. I know canidates were important - Chapters get really shirty about loosing the worlds they recruit from for a reason - but Gene Seed issues were the bigger problem. However, I was under the impression that they were able to make more Primaris Gene-Seed far faster than the old Marine ones. I could be wrong about that, though.

Still, it feels like a missed opportunity to modernize the game and start making it so those pictures of Hobby stores don't include eight smiling dudes. Since the old excuse for no female marines was 'Oh, we can't tinker with the Gene-Seed or alter it and, shucks, it only works on guys right now...' that excuse is gone. We know it's been tinkered with again. There's a whole model line dedicated to it.

the most recent pictures are useally a guy and a girl playing, the gender of the little plastic soldiers is pretty meaningless.

 44Ronin wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:

 argonak wrote:


Marine creation isn't limited by candidates, its limited by geneseed. There's more than enough candidates in the Imperium. Opening it up to females would give no benefit. Not that I would have anything against it if they did. It is science fiction after all.

I know that was true of the old Marines - although obviously with more potential candidates, even more rigorous standards could be held, limiting the number of failures and turned to Chaos further - but I'm not as familiar with the fluff about the new ones. I know canidates were important - Chapters get really shirty about loosing the worlds they recruit from for a reason - but Gene Seed issues were the bigger problem. However, I was under the impression that they were able to make more Primaris Gene-Seed far faster than the old Marine ones. I could be wrong about that, though.

Still, it feels like a missed opportunity to modernize the game and start making it so those pictures of Hobby stores don't include eight smiling dudes. Since the old excuse for no female marines was 'Oh, we can't tinker with the Gene-Seed or alter it and, shucks, it only works on guys right now...' that excuse is gone. We know it's been tinkered with again. There's a whole model line dedicated to it.

the most recent pictures are useally a guy and a girl playing, the gender of the little plastic soldiers is pretty meaningless.

llloooooooll false equivalency much?

 44Ronin wrote:
Identity politics can GTFO

Retcon years of fluff for what>? Shallow gender representation?

 Jon Garrett wrote:

 44Ronin wrote:
Identity politics can GTFO

Retcon years of fluff for what>? Shallow gender representation?

As opposed to the noble reasoning of simply selling more models?

Tell you what - give me one fluff reason why it can't happen, now that we know that Primaris Marines exist and the Gene-Seed can and has been altered. Give me one good reason, in fluff, why it would be a bad idea to increase the number of potential Marines.

I'm not suggesting regular Marines can be girls. It has been well established that regular Marines implode from lethal cooties, and cannot be given shots for it. But the Primaris...well, they're bigger, better, improved. They've been modified from those Marines that start melting when you say 'menstruation'.

If nothing else it would be nice to make them distinct, instead of 'Space Marine Xtreme - So 90's Vanilla Ice Sued Us!' which seems to have been the main design document for their creation.

 Nerak wrote:
The reason no force isn't given more warmachines, like Space ships for instance, is because of what Horus did with it during the Heresy. During 30k ships, titans and so on where straight up part of the SM legions. Look at Pertubraro and the Iron warriors, he's frequently mentioned as being in direct command of Titans. This was bannad after the Heresy to ensure that no single Imperial organisation body would be able to wreck the havoc Horus did if they where to turn traitor. This does not explain however why there where seemingly no knights part of the original crusades.

What makes the knights unique is that they're crewed by a single individual. Like the dreadnoughts, but bigger, stronger and more versitile. I can see it not being given to the IG, since they're supposed to be kept as reasource effecient as possible, but surely the Astartes, Inquisition or deathwatch should have them available? Or the SoB, the one organisation with the reasources to field vast ammounts of power armoured Troops. Titans and super heavy veichles have big crews in them, which is a limiting factor for the Astartes, but the knights do not have that limitation.

Also if beuarocracy is what's holding it back then why wouldn't the Imperial knight nobles that do service in the Inquisition or the Imperial Guard have brought knights to theese organisations? I realise it's similar to "why doesn't the Imperial Guard use power armour" but that one I can understand. This one I can't.

Edit: Oh and the reason the IG doesn't get the rhino is because it's more expensive and more difficult to keep running. The Chimera and Russ (upon which chassis most tanks are based on) are both very easy to keep running through bad terrain and malfunctions with minimum knowledge of it's workings. How did the saying go... "A Leman russ can run on shoes and bad language" I think.