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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Why not?

Because it's OP.

They've always been effectively so.

And SMs have had chapter tactics since 6th edition.

Sternguard have had special issue ammunition since 5th edition.

The fact that conscripts have "always been effectively so" does not make them balanced or indicate that they should still have it. In case you haven't noticed, we are currently talking about a new edition of 40k, in effect, an entirely new game with an entirely new set of rules.

As I said, the right gun for the job can absolutely rip through them.

What "right gun" for the job? Did you see the math I did for flamers?

The simple fact is that conscripts are now more durable and more killy.

Points costs and rules need to change to compensate for that.

 Traditio wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Why not?

Because it's OP.

They've always been effectively so.

And SMs have had chapter tactics since 6th edition.

Sternguard have had special issue ammunition since 5th edition.

The fact that conscripts have "always been effectively so" does not make them balanced or indicate that they should still have it. In case you haven't noticed, we are currently talking about a new edition of 40k, in effect, an entirely new game with an entirely new set of rules.

As I said, the right gun for the job can absolutely rip through them.

What "right gun" for the job? Did you see the math I did for flamers?

The simple fact is that conscripts are now more durable and more killy.

Points costs and rules need to change to compensate for that.

Punisher Gatling Cannon and 3x Heavy Bolters with a Tank Commander. Pretty much the same price as they are too!

Also, 4x Flamer, 1x Combi-Flamer, and 1x Immolation Flamer.

Also, 30 Boyz. Or 30 'gaunts.

They're not particularly more durable. The improvement is fairly marginal, considering that mine have a 4+ save right now! I paid 50 points for that save, but I have it.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
So far as I can see, it's not the hordes themselves that are OP. It's the buffs which can be provided to hordes, especially in the morale phase, that are OP.

3 ppm conscripts shouldn't be virtually immune to the battle shock phase. That's just unfair.

Why not? They've always been effectively so.

In fact, in 7e, regular guardsmen can come in 50-man blobs, are basically morale-proof, and are even more devastating in shooting. I've shot to pieces Tervigons using Bring it Down! and evaporated terminators with First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE!.

Conscripts and their characteristics are nothing new, and even getting their 5+ save they're not particularly survivable. As I said, the right gun for the job can absolutely rip through them.

Compared to a 50-man block of regular guardsmen, conscripts are cheaper but offer much poorer shooting and assault, but the same survivability. And that's the point. They're really not 200 points worth of destructive power. Also, compared to other things that are resilient and 200 points, like a Leman Russ Punisher Tank, they have about equal firepower, at best, at full strength. The Lasguns are mostly harmless. The conscripts, at full strength, in rapid fire range, can deal about 10 wounds a turn to Necron Warriors, which is pretty fair for 200 points. They won't beat the warriors if they do't get first salvo, but they can if they do. Marines will survive better than Necrons against conscripts, and chew through them fairly quickly too. Worth mention, so will Orks, and Tyranids, extremely quickly. Falling back from combat and getting "Get Back in the Fight" isn't a big deal because 1: the resulting devastated unit isn't really worth the order compared to "First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE!" on an intact unit, and 2: it's a consolation prize for what's left of the unit.

In previous editions you would have a much better time whittling down those hordes with mass bolter/h. bolter fire and template weapons. If you did get into assault you would also be safe because they could't just fall back on a whim and then 'get back into the fight'. In this edition, one of the primary mechanisms for killing more models in the absence templates is morale, which these hordes conveniently ignore.

GorillaWarfare wrote:


In previous editions you would have a much better time whittling down those hordes with mass bolter/h. bolter fire and template weapons. If you did get into assault you would also be safe because they could't just fall back on a whim and then 'get back into the fight'. In this edition, one of the primary mechanisms for killing more models in the absence templates is morale, which these hordes conveniently ignore.

You know what also conveniently ignores morale? MSU.

Bolter fire still works. So does Flamers. So does Lasguns. If you used it last edition, it still works.


Also, Get Back In The Fight is absolutely terrible. It give half the shooting power of First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!

Imperial Guardsmen with FRFSRF get 37 shots and 19 hits.
In order for Conscripts to be worth the order after falling back, there needs to be 30 conscripts left in the squad after your melee.

Try it, it's not that hard.

10x Seraphim, 4x Hand Flamer, 134 points, way less than the cost of the Conscripts, or the Punisher. Shooting kills an average of 11 right there, and you can assault to kill a couple more. Tell me that assault marines, who get actually dangerous melee, can't take care of them?

Or try Orks. 30 boys gets 120 attacks, resulting in an output of 35 wounds. That's no-more-Conscripts right there. Hormagaunts are similar, and hit on turn 1 too.




I'm not finding a problem with conscripts. They do what they've always done, and they're not particularly better at it. And considering that Marines are now 12 points a pop instead of 16, I feel 3 points a conscript is fair, considering my "delete Marines" button is gone.

I feel it should be noted with cover, because saves are technically taken in sequence, you can allocate to models outside of cover, kill them off until the remaining units are 100% are in cover, at which point they get the +1 bonus

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Punisher Gatling Cannon and 3x Heavy Bolters with a Tank Commander. Pretty much the same price as they are too!

Also, 4x Flamer, 1x Combi-Flamer, and 1x Immolation Flamer.

None of these things is a problem.

First and foremost, one can make relatively short work of these things with dedicated AT weapons. You cannot make short work of conscripts with anti-infantry weapons. Boltguns, flamers, frag grenades, frag missiles, etc. are not reliable, points-efficient methods of taking out conscripts.

Second, if you don't want to deal with these things, you don't have to do so.

1. You can charge these things and deny them a round of shooting on the next turn.

2. Their battlefield footprint isn't that big.

Conscripts can fall back, shoot and can take up an enormous amount of space.

Also, 30 Boyz

Boyz are twice as expensive as conscripts, save on 6s, and have increasingly worse morale as they lose numbers.

Not comparable.

Or 30 'gaunts.

Tyrranids are OP.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Am I missing something?

The short anwser? Yes.

The long anwser? Yes, tactics.

Try bringing more then just 30 man squads of boys.

Ugh, i'll be right back...So that took 10 seconds Da Jump use it.

Other than gaining the ability to wound above T6, guardsman blobs haven't gotten any more killy since 7th ed. Arguably they've gotten a bit less, since true blobbing is restricted to conscripts now. They haven't gotten any less vulnerable to morale either, Commissars in 7th had the same deal of blam one guy, ignore morale. No change there, except that Commissars went from 25 points to 31 points.

The main thing that has changed for them is the removal of templates. Templates used to be far and away the best way to sweep a horde off the table, because a proper horde has far too many models to use 2" spacing. Now, templates are gone and hordes are hard to remove. It's really that simple, and it applies to every single horde army, not just guardsmen.

I don't think they'll be strong enough to be gamebreaking, but they will be strong enough to be meta. Some kind of dakkaboat unit, or some kind of melee blender unit, will be an important consideration for dealing with any hordes you might encounter. For example, the +1 attack on chainswords and their equivalents may turn out to be rather valuable for filling that role.

 ross-128 wrote:
Other than gaining the ability to wound above T6, guardsman blobs haven't gotten any more killy since 7th ed.

"Other than gaining the ability to wound above T6"? That's a MASSIVE increase in killiness. The fact that conscripts can wound rhinos is definitely a substantial increase in killiness which must be accounted for. You can't just hand-wave that away. Second, you're not taking into account that conscripts now wound T5 on 5s. That's also a substantial increase in killing power. Third, you're failing to take into account the ability to fall back and then shoot. Or even fall back without shooting in order that something else can shoot.

All of that amounts to much more killy conscripts, whether directly or indirectly.

Now, templates are gone and hordes are hard to remove. It's really that simple, and it applies to every single horde army, not just guardsmen.

It amounts to the same thing: conscripts (and hordes in general) have become much more durable. That means that they need a points increase, and the rules need to change to compensate. If I can't kill your conscripts en masse in the shooting phase, then you need to lose large numbers of them in the battleshock phase.

It's that simple.

For example, the +1 attack on chainswords and their equivalents may turn out to be rather valuable for filling that role.

No, they're not.

Do the math.

 Traditio wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Punisher Gatling Cannon and 3x Heavy Bolters with a Tank Commander. Pretty much the same price as they are too!

Also, 4x Flamer, 1x Combi-Flamer, and 1x Immolation Flamer.

None of these things is a problem.

First and foremost, one can make relatively short work of these things with dedicated AT weapons. You cannot make short work of conscripts with anti-infantry weapons. Boltguns, flamers, frag grenades, frag missiles, etc. are not reliable, points-efficient methods of taking out conscripts.

Second, if you don't want to deal with these things, you don't have to do so.

1. You can charge these things and deny them a round of shooting on the next turn.

2. Their battlefield footprint isn't that big.

Conscripts can fall back, shoot and can take up an enormous amount of space.

Also, 30 Boyz

Boyz are twice as expensive as conscripts, save on 6s, and have increasingly worse morale as they lose numbers.

Not comparable.

Or 30 'gaunts.

Tyrranids are OP

Which means that 30 boys is roughly equal to the conscripts and the support to not make them evaporate, yes? If boyz are 6 a pop, then 30 boys goes for 180 points, with 20 points to spare on something to buff them. Are they really not comparable?

You picked the lamest anti-infantry weapons in the book. That's like asking an autocannon to make short work of a Land Raider. Pick real anti-infantry options other than the goddamn tactical marines you seem to think should be the be all and end all of 40k, who are really the vanilla of the vanilla and are neither good at anything nor terrible at anything. Tac Marines will never and should never outshoot guardsmen point-for-point.

Anyway, what about Seraphim? You can't stop them by getting into assault, because they use pistols, and use them in assault. They also can potentially shoot twice, or move twice, or assault twice, or do any of that fun stuff thanks to Act of Faith, and then they'll really chew through Conscripts. Point-for-point they'll rip the Conscripts apart.

What I'm getting out of you is: If it's something that's supposed to be effective against lots and lots of guys, then it doesn't count. If it's not actually supposed to be amazing at clearing hordes, and can't clear them, then hordes are OP because goddamn Frag Grenades, which I remind you are terrible, aren't ripping a vast swathe through them.

Why don't you try twin assault canonon Razorbacks for your transports. Your problems with conscripts will go away. Or Twin Heavy Flamer Razorbacks, works too.


Also worth mention, Conscripts put just over half the damage downrange as the Punisher. Both come up to about the same cost, so it makes sense that the Conscripts are a bit tougher than the Leman Russ.


There are lots of options that are really good at killing hordes, hordes of Ork Boyz to Punisher Gatling Cannons to Sisters Seraphim. You just have to use them.

Anyway, you want assault troop math? I'll do it for you.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Assault Marines: 130 points, vs. Conscripts



Look at that! For just over half the price of Conscripts and their support, you're killing ten of them a turn! Are you not satisfied?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Why not? They've always been effectively so.

Why cant we own slaves, people have been doing that since forever. Oh man what a gak argument.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Conscripts and their characteristics are nothing new.

Sharks have been the same for a long time, and are lretty scary in large bodies of water, but drop one off in the Sahara and it wont survive long.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Compared to a 50-man block of regular guardsmen, conscripts are cheaper but offer much poorer shooting and assault, but the same survivability. And that's the point.

So what your saying is you can double the surviveablity of your good troops allowing them to put out 2.5x the damage for a for a 75% increase in price. Yeah whats OP about that.

Punishers... don't kill conscripts all that well. I'm not why you think they do, but you keep saying it.

20 shots, half miss. only .666 of those 10 hits actually wound, since S5 is worse against T3.

No AP on those shots, so a third of those 6.66 wounds are saved, half if they can somehow claim cover. Assume they can't, so 4 or 5 dead conscripts out of 50. Huzzah.

That could lead to 3-5 more morale casualties, but commissars so they don't.

I'm underwhelmed by your go-to example of anti infantry.


The problem with conscripts isn't their killing ability (which is poor). It's the magical immunity that prevents the opponent from fighting the actual army that lies behind them. You know, actually playing the game. Conscripts are essentially a troll strategy. Great for winning, bad for a fun game.

Look at that! For just over half the price of Conscripts and their support, you're killing ten of them a turn! Are you not satisfied?

That chart is hilariously uninformative, but if ~10 is the result, yeah, I'm pretty unsatisfied. 5 full turns for assault specialists to be tied up slowly grinding down a garbage unit? That's really awful. Especially since it won't be that rosey, as the assault marines will also take casualties, and do increasingly less than ten on each subsequent turn.

Punisher, Assault Marines, Seraphim


The Seraphim are 134, the Assault Marines are 130, and the Punisher is 211.

Our hypothetical Conscript target is 200 [since otherwise it's not morale-proof]

This looks pretty good.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

Look at that! For just over half the price of Conscripts and their support, you're killing ten of them a turn! Are you not satisfied?

That chart is hilariously uninformative, but if ~10 is the result, yeah, I'm pretty unsatisfied. 5 full turns for assault specialists to be tied up slowly grinding down a garbage unit? That's really awful. Especially since it won't be that rosey, as the assault marines will also take casualties, and do increasingly less than ten on each subsequent turn.

You are aware that the Assault Marines are 130 [without support] and the conscripts are 200 [with support]? And those are un-upgraded assault marines, because I don't have a clue what's good for them.

Also, I'm using the Tank Command Punisher, which is considerably better than the regular one. 3+ BS is worth a lot.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Assault Marines: 130 points, vs. Conscripts



Look at that! For just over half the price of Conscripts and their support, you're killing ten of them a turn! Are you not satisfied?

How much do you think conscripts cost? There 3 PPM you could get 30 conscripts and a commisar it would take them 3 turns to kill that unit and the would lose half thier squad in the process.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Assault Marines: 130 points, vs. Conscripts



Look at that! For just over half the price of Conscripts and their support, you're killing ten of them a turn! Are you not satisfied?

How much do you think conscripts cost? There 3 PPM you could get 30 conscripts and a commisar it would take them 3 turns to kill that unit and the would lose half thier squad in the process.

200 points

Conscripts are 3 points a model, so that's 150 points for 50 conscripts. A commissar, to keep them in place, since the complaint is about them is that they're morale proof, is 30 points. That's 180 points. Then, because the second complaint is that they can fall back and shoot, they need a 20-point Platoon Commander to give them that ability. That totals up to 200 points. You can't cry about them being morale-proof and able to fall back from combat without including the cost of the upgrades that allow them to do so!

I think that Assault Marines are pretty good at it for their price. Remember, Conscripts aren't heavy weapons teams, they pay for durability, so they're supposed to be vaguely durable and a decent tarpit. And for 200 points, you do get a decent tarpit. It can hold it's own points cost down for 3 turns, which is pretty fair for a tarpit.



I'm not sure what you space marine players want out of our units? All our units are apparently too tough and too lethal for the points we pay, because your space marines can't kill off our entire army in one turn and simultaneously take all of our shooting without losing a model. My big blob of guys shouldn't die in one turn to a unit half their cost. Especially considering their damage output, even when fully buffed, isn't spectacular, they shouldn't be dying in one turn to a unit equal to their cost! They're a dedicated tarpit!

I have to agree with Katherine here. Especially considering you're trying to have you cake and eat it to, having conscripts "ignore morale" while not actually taking in to consideration the literal cost of them "ignoring morale".

 Traditio wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:Eh, it gives assault marines something to do. Doesn't chainswording through a bolter/whirlwind depleted mob sound fun? It does to me.

It's not worth it.

Here's what's going to happen, assuming a 30 man conscript blob with commissar.

3 assault marines with chainswords and boltpistols.
2 assault marines with flamers.

Deploy from rhino within a few inches of the conscripts.

Discharge flamers. Average damage:

7/1 X 2/3 X 2/3 = 28/9 unsaved wounds

2 bolt pistols fire:

2/1 X 2/3 X 2/3 X 2/3 = 16/27 unsaved wounds.

Toss frag grenade:

7/2 X 2/3 X 1/2 X 2/3 =28/36 unsaved wounds

Result in shooting phase:

About 5 unsaved wounds

Assault marines charge.

25 conscripts fire overwatch:

50/1 X 1/3 X 1/3 X 1/3 = 50/27, or about 2 unsaved wounds.

Flamer marines die.

Bolt pistol and chainsword marines attack:

7/1 X 2/3 X 2/3 X 2/3 = 56/27, or about 2 unsaved wounds.

23 conscripts counter-attack:

23/1 X 1/3 X 1/3 X 1/3 = 23/27

Close to one unsaved wound.

In the morale phase, commissar BLAMS a conscript.

On the following turn, conscripts ball back, get back in the fight, and rapidfire lasguns:

44/1 X 1/3 X 1/3 X 1/3 = 44/27

Just that one commissar blob, on average, will wipe most of the assault squad, an assault squad that costs 83 points, not counting the rhino.

How many points of conscripts did they kill? 8. 24 points worth of conscripts.

It's not fair.

Conscripts need to be more expensive, and commissars need to be nerfed. Get rid of the BLAM rule, or else, treat it like ATSKNF.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, "Get Back in the Fight" needs to die. It' an unfair order. It shouldn't exist.

Also, IG should have to roll for their orders again. Auto-pass is too much of an advantage (especially given the fact that I don't even have chapter tactics any more!), and it unduly benefits conscripts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically, here is the problem with horde armies like IG:

IG is supposed to have very clear advantages (shooting) and disadvantages (merely average stats; very little close combat capabilities, weakness to morale tests).

Except, oh, wait, those disadvantages don't even matter, because they have special rules to pretty much completely ignore them.

8th ed IG are unfair in the same way that 7th ed. Tau were unfair.

Why would you assume I'd only send five guys in a rhino? I mean, set yourself up for failure and yeah, you'll fail.

No those buffs also apply to any other infantry unit around it as well. Since you will have a platoon command squad anyway for your other infantry IF you were going in infantry blobs anyway, the cost comes down with each effective blob. You can easily daisy chain 4 blobs to a PCS and Commisar, remember you choose what models to remove. The costs themselves are also minimal in they also fill up more detachment slots for more CP.

The fact autopass orders are a thing now means that PCS pays for itself after essentially the first 2 orders.

And how the feth is 3ppm paying for durability?

 Quickjager wrote:
No those buffs also apply to any other infantry unit around it as well. Since you will have a platoon command squad anyway for your other infantry IF you were going in infantry blobs anyway, the cost comes down with each effective blob. You can easily daisy chain 4 blobs to a PCS and Commisar, remember you choose what models to remove. The costs themselves are also minimal in they also fill up more detachment slots for more CP.

The fact autopass orders are a thing now means that PCS pays for itself after essentially the first 2 orders.

And how the feth is 3ppm paying for durability?

That's not actually true. A PCS can service one squad at a time, and no more than one squad. A commissar can service up to probably a hypothetical 4. Maybe if you're clever you can get more, but you won't be able to get all your conscripts within 12" then. Really, it's about 1 Commissar per 2 squads, and 1 CC per 2 squads. which puts our hypothetical unit at 150+150+30+30=360 points.

Of course the unit price is paying for durability! What else is a conscript squad but a big blob that takes up space and doesn't die! It's certainly not a unit with tremendous shooting power.

Don't mind me
200 / 8 = 25
25 * 2 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 11.11
25 * 2 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 12.96
Hmm that feels a little weak...

What about...
25 * 4 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 14.81
25 * 4 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 17.28
Damn, quite a bit better!

What if supported instead?
(200 - 40) / 8 = 20
20 * 6 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 17.77
20 * 6 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 20.74
A little better, but feeling like a sidegrade

Final support?
(200 - 40 - 40) / 8 = 15
15 * 6 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 23.33
Good to see it still better, but definitely worth investing more than a total of 200 if going full support.

Carry on!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Why would you assume I'd only send five guys in a rhino? I mean, set yourself up for failure and yeah, you'll fail.

because otherwise you would be sending way way more points to kill your target.
Which would mean that they would have more points to kill the additional guys you would send.

 Quickjager wrote:
No those buffs also apply to any other infantry unit around it as well. Since you will have a platoon command squad anyway for your other infantry IF you were going in infantry blobs anyway, the cost comes down with each effective blob. You can easily daisy chain 4 blobs to a PCS and Commisar, remember you choose what models to remove. The costs themselves are also minimal in they also fill up more detachment slots for more CP.

The fact autopass orders are a thing now means that PCS pays for itself after essentially the first 2 orders.

And how the feth is 3ppm paying for durability?

This works for Commissars, not so much for PCS, because you only get one order a turn. You can bump up to CCS, which get you two, but even then half of your conscripts will be without orders. And they are bad without orders.

3ppm is paying for durability when you need 50 of them for the unit to be durable. If you go for smaller units, they die faster and don't get as much mileage out of orders, which they pretty much need to function. It also gets harder to daisy chain them like you suggest.

Are conscripts good? Yeah, looks like it. Are they unbeatable hordes of doom that will sweep aside all in their path, choking the living with their dead and drowning those who oppose them with their blood, all at the behest of an uncaring corpse upon a faraway throne? Probably not.

Units don't need to be unbeatable to be endgame, meta defining influences.

They just need to be a bit more efficent than everthing else and then you get Serpent Shield Spam. In this case you get objective holders that will almost always outnumber the opponent (therefore holding the objective) that will always get a significant portion of their points back.

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
No those buffs also apply to any other infantry unit around it as well. Since you will have a platoon command squad anyway for your other infantry IF you were going in infantry blobs anyway, the cost comes down with each effective blob. You can easily daisy chain 4 blobs to a PCS and Commisar, remember you choose what models to remove. The costs themselves are also minimal in they also fill up more detachment slots for more CP.

The fact autopass orders are a thing now means that PCS pays for itself after essentially the first 2 orders.

And how the feth is 3ppm paying for durability?

This works for Commissars, not so much for PCS, because you only get one order a turn. You can bump up to CCS, which get you two, but even then half of your conscripts will be without orders. And they are bad without orders.

3ppm is paying for durability when you need 50 of them for the unit to be durable. If you go for smaller units, they die faster and don't get as much mileage out of orders, which they pretty much need to function. It also gets harder to daisy chain them like you suggest.

Are conscripts good? Yeah, looks like it. Are they unbeatable hordes of doom that will sweep aside all in their path, choking the living with their dead and drowning those who oppose them with their blood, all at the behest of an uncaring corpse upon a faraway throne? Probably not.

Never the claim.
They don't even need orders to do what they do best - serve as a roadblock. They just need a commissar nearby* having a smoke. They can fall back an inch and a bit at a time, and keep the enemy from engaging the murder-stuff. That is what they are for, and they do it perfectly for basically nothing. Enjoy 3-4 rounds of what is probably the best shooting in the game while you try to chop through the layers. *That* is the problem.

*and 'nearby' is a wacky generous world where you can daisy chain a trailing line of conscripts back to within 6" of the commissar's perfectly safe position, which can be the inside corner of a bog-standard GW ruin.

Yeesh, I didn't know playful hyperbole had been outlawed.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Assault Marines: 130 points, vs. Conscripts



Look at that! For just over half the price of Conscripts and their support, you're killing ten of them a turn! Are you not satisfied?

How much do you think conscripts cost? There 3 PPM you could get 30 conscripts and a commisar it would take them 3 turns to kill that unit and the would lose half thier squad in the process.

200 points

Conscripts are 3 points a model, so that's 150 points for 50 conscripts. A commissar, to keep them in place, since the complaint is about them is that they're morale proof, is 30 points. That's 180 points. Then, because the second complaint is that they can fall back and shoot, they need a 20-point Platoon Commander to give them that ability. That totals up to 200 points. You can't cry about them being morale-proof and able to fall back from combat without including the cost of the upgrades that allow them to do so!

I think that Assault Marines are pretty good at it for their price. Remember, Conscripts aren't heavy weapons teams, they pay for durability, so they're supposed to be vaguely durable and a decent tarpit. And for 200 points, you do get a decent tarpit. It can hold it's own points cost down for 3 turns, which is pretty fair for a tarpit.



I'm not sure what you space marine players want out of our units? All our units are apparently too tough and too lethal for the points we pay, because your space marines can't kill off our entire army in one turn and simultaneously take all of our shooting without losing a model. My big blob of guys shouldn't die in one turn to a unit half their cost. Especially considering their damage output, even when fully buffed, isn't spectacular, they shouldn't be dying in one turn to a unit equal to their cost! They're a dedicated tarpit!

Okay lets try this what happens to a 10 man unit of Rubrics Marines (346 points) with all flamers goes up to an equal amount of guardsman with proprer support.

So what would the guard player take?

30 conscripts 90 points
Commisar 30 points
2 Company Commanders 30 points
4 platoons of guardsman 160 points
310 points
And you are even down by 30 points

And we will assume that I some how magically got my flamer unit close enough to your conscripts to shoot them with out being shot, and that I managed to do so while being able to fire.

You can run the math if you want but in the end my 346 point unit takes 2 turns to kill your 90 point unit, and in that time your 120 points of guardsman kill my 346 poimt unit over 3 turns. So either my models are massivly overpriced or your models are massivly under priced.

Because according to you there is no way units that cost 120 points should be able to kill a 346 unit over 3 turns since that gets you 360 points of shooting total.

Edit: also keep in mind that my 346 unit with all flamers can't kill your 90 point unitin a single turn despite being nearly 4x the points.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Okay lets try this what happens to a 10 man unit of Rubrics Marines (346 points) with all flamers goes up to an equal amount of guardsman with proprer support.

So what would the guard player take?

30 conscripts 90 points
Commisar 30 points
2 Company Commanders 30 points
4 platoons of guardsman 160 points
310 points
And you are even down by 30 points

And we will assume that I some how magically got my flamer unit close enough to your conscripts to shoot them with out being shot, and that I managed to do so while being able to fire.

You can run the math if you want but in the end my 346 point unit takes 2 turns to kill you 90 poimt unit, and in that time you 120 points of guardsman kill my 346 poimt unit over 3 turns. So either my models are massivly overpriced or your models are massivly under priced.

Because according to you there is no way units that cost 120 points should be able to kill a 346 unit over 3 turns since that gets you 360 points of shooting total.

There's got to be something in those 346 points you're not using, because I have no damn clue how 10 guys with flamers costs 346. Unless there's something special about them, and you're using them on the wrong target.

Sisters get 4 with flamers in a tank with what's essentially a double-heavy flamer and scout for something like 200 points. Or 4 Flamers and 16 Bolt Pistols on a Jump Infantry platform for 134 points.

Hell, my off-the-top-of-my-head calculation for SM's with Flamers if it was possible to take 10 with nothing but flamers is still only like 200 something.

There's got to be something you're not using eating up all those points, or the Rubrics are the wrong unit for the job.

Also, I messed up the Seraphim simulation. Forgot they autohit with Hand Flamers:


They're very scary. And how far ahead of the other two their line is makes me happy.

I think you're doing something wrong with the Rubrics. If they really are 346 points, and are 10 tactical guys with flamers, they might be one of the worst deals out there. Like, seriously.

If the Sisters get 10 models with Flamers, we can get a transport to go with them for that price. And, of course, there's the aforementioned Seraphim, who come it at significantly less than 346, pack half the number of flamers and another 16 bolt pistols, and can move 24" on turn 1, and are still Sv3+.

They have AP -2 are Str 4 they are literally perfect for killing conscripts. If you add everything up even psy power and charging you still end up woth 5 guys left.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
They have AP -2 are Str 4 they are literally perfect for killing conscripts. If you add everything up even psy power and charging you still end up woth 5 guys left.

With 10 AP-2 Flamers I'm computing 24 guys on average spontaneously ceasing to exist from just the flamer attacks.



Your guys are also expensive because they're really good against marines as well, while mine [Sera, Doms] will trail off in effectiveness very rapidly. Seems fair. I'm sure there's more cost efficient options in your book too, that isn't AP-2. The AP-2 is driving up the price hilariously, and you've got a unit that's fairly resilient and extremely killy.

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Yeesh, I didn't know playful hyperbole had been outlawed.

It's fine up until you try to dismiss people with it, you know, like you just did.

What's actually missing from the game are shrapnel cannons with a profile like 5D6, S2, AP 0, 1D.

Strength 2 just isn't really in the game, but it's the one instance you can more efficiently take points off a 4 ppm guard squad than a 13 ppm marine squad.

It'd take 18 hits to kill a marine, 4.5 hits to kill a guardsman.


You could also have negative armor piercing, or AP + 1,

An S2, AP +1, 1D takes:

6*6= 36 shots to kill a marine,
3*2 = 6 shots to kill a guardsman.

There need to be some weapons that are more efficient at dealing with blobs of unarmored, unprotected infantry out of cover.

Shrapnel artillery was exactly that historically.