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xmbk wrote:

Agusto wrote:
I heard from Reecius during one of their live battles at Frontline gaming that they considered making it a +1 to go first for LVO in stead of just getting first turn.

Both methods are close to the same, statistically. I go, you go has a lot of tactics to it. Placing last is certainly an advantage, just as moving last can be worth a vp. I do think placing models off board as a drop can be abused. They should count as drops, but only after on board models have been placed.

Current method, you have an 83% chance to go first (5/6).
Roll-off between two players, giving +1 on the roll to one, rerolling ties, it's 68% (21/31) chance to go first with the bonus, so slightly better than 1 in 3. I actually think it's pretty fair.

One of the worst things in this edition is how the last person to place an objective marker is the one that chooses his/her deployment side. It's a very significant advantage, and I can't understand why they chose to do it that way.

CthulhuDawg wrote:

 ProfViolence wrote:


Annoyed they took away my looted wagons. "Use every model in your collection" my a**. My son and I have 6 looted wagons in our Ork force (yeah, we like to kit bash). For Father's Day today, he gave me a Hydra to loot. (Obviously gotten before yesterday when we saw the new rules). I hope there are rules for them when they drop the codex.

To be fair we didn't really get Looted Wagons last edition either, shoe horned White Dwarf rules don't count The way I'm choosing to look at it is like I gained 8 ard' case battle wagons

I don't understand - why can't you take those models? Open play lets you take anything you want. Bring the looted basilisk.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Disappointed; My entire IG army style/ theme was dragged outside, shot in the back of the head, burned with petroleum and dumped in an unmarked grave.

My entire idea was a Fortress Defence Force, a regiment specializing in anchoring a line/ holding a fortified area for as long as humanly possible.

To that end, I used Veterans as troops and gave them ALL camo cloaks and carapace armour (even in 7th, I know it wasn't points effective at all but it was my theme). 8th Edition fethed them over by removing Carapace and Camo Cloak options and salting the wounds by making them Elites instead of Troops.

7th Ed: 10x Veterans with Carapace Armour, Krak Grenades and Camo Cloaks = 95 pts (85 w/o the Krak)

8th Ed: 10x Scions with Carapace Armour, Krak Grenades and Hot Shot Lasgun = 100 pts.
(Use your Veterans as Scions, should only be a problem on tournaments unless you'r gaminggroup is full of asshats.)



Yes you might loose out on the camo cloaks, but in return you get a decent weapon. Hardly what I'd called getting dragged outside, shot in the head, burned and dumped in a unmarked grave.

Especially when what he's describing (unless I remember "Doctrines" wrong) was actually illegal in 7th too. Couldn't you only pick EITHER Grenadiers OR Forward Sentries OR demolitions?

Also, HWTs got better, all artillery tanks got better, fortifications got tougher, and Bullgryns are now one of the most immovable objects in the game sitting on a defense line. a defensive guard army is 100% better than before.

I like most things.

I do think the removal of firing arcs/line of sight from weapons when shooting with vehicles is dumb, and I don't like the "re-roll and modifers" situation. Atleast the latter was cleared up in the FAQ, but the former is still looking like a missed rule in my eyes.

Regarding my new army, Tau, I find it a bit silly that they are still only BS4+. They have among the most advanced aiming systems and targeting computers in the known galaxy, but they still need a markerlight to hit things properly. I would rather they made some of the shooting a bit weaker (which they kinda did), so you don't have to pay markerlight tax so you can actually hit your targets properly.

I haven't played any Tau games yet though, and not much 8th in general, so I can't speak from experience. Just my first impressions

Overall, I am satisfied with the new rules and mechanics of 8th edition. There are a few things that need to be improved (like the selection of psychic powers,) but mostly it's a good update.

In terms of how this affects my playstyle with CSMs: it's a drastic change, but mostly for the positive. I was playing Black Legion and felt the game was really decided based on how far my units scattered on deep strike. Still playing a Black Legion army, but the tactics are entirely different. Oddly, it doesn't feel like I really lost anything from what Traitor Legions gave us, with the changes to the rules on deep strike. It feels like they were improved.

Pros:

- I like playing power levels. It's great being able to take the units you want instead of worrying about points for every weapons upgrade.

- Lascannons causing multiple wounds. Gives me a reason to bring Predators again and it's hard to one-shot them.

- No scatter means Khorne Raptors with Icon of Wrath are pretty reliable.

- Now that salvo is gone, Noise Marines with sonic weapons are very shooty (as they were intended.)

- Using Rhinos to tie up a unit, and falling back with that Rhino when the rest of my army is ready to shoot. The new vehicle rules make it possible to carry out some cool tactics.

- Heldrakes can spin up to 360 degrees when moving. They stay on the table longer.

- I love the 14 inch movement on bikers, and a couple core rules mechanics make them easier to use. The rules around how models are removed means I can keep the guys with meltas up front and target vehicles as they move forward. The rules around assaults means I can charge infantry even though they took a few wounds off a tank.

- They play tougher against Eldar. Still a tough army to beat, but there's definitely less to worry about. Wraithknights go down fast when you bring enough lascannons.

- They play tougher against Space Marines. The power imbalance is less noticeable.

- They play tougher against Orks. There's more dakka on the board for handling hordes, and more ways to screw with horde armies. Also, most Ork lists from 7th edition don't work very well under the new rules, it's going to take players some time to catch up.

Cons:

- The extra rerolls on dice when one side has a higher power-level army are almost meaningless. There should be some other mechanic to compensate.

- Close combat rules on flyers don't make sense. Don't like the idea Heldrakes can be charged.

- Obliterators have Fleshmetal guns and they are very random. You now have to take 3 at a time.

- Infernal Regeneration sounds good, but it only restores one wound per turn. On things like Defilers, they are going to be taking shots from things that cause multiple wounds. This is our new Warpflame Gargoyles.

- The Land Raider needs a rule that lets it fall back and still shoot and move. It's too big to bubble wrap and opponents have an easy time getting within an inch of it. The fact it has 6 attacks in close combat doesn't mean much with a 6+ WS.

- Possessed are still Possessed. They cost more than Berzerkers for a 33% chance of an extra attack and a 5+ invulnerable save. Feels like GW missed an opportunity for a serious improvement.

Overall my Adepta Sororitas seem to have gotten a nice boost. After 3 games at 500 and 1000 vs. Orks and Chaos, they've performed well. Essentially, the 8th edition rules seems to have streamlined the main themes of being a mid-ranged shooting army: advancing into range, usually with mechanized support, mowing down the enemy, sustaining a few charges, and repositioning to manage ranged attacks as the game progresses.

Good Stuff:
Lots of ways to structure an army without being burdened by basic Battle Sisters Troops choices, which were never cost effective.
The Holy Trinity of bolter, flamer, and melta is well-rounded, effective, and appropriately priced.
Characters do what they feel like they should: enhance the performance and longevity of the units around them.
Mechanized infantry plays like it feels like it should: a transport delivers the unit, but they have to get out a do the dirty work.
Guard allies are amazing (specifically, Scions)

Meh Stuff:
Lack of single Power Level options make it tough to hit an assigned PL value.
Still no jump pack Canoness.
Inquisition allies are a little limited and inflexible... I haven't found the right way to include them just yet.
Still no clear use for Repentia, Celestians, other esoteric models I don't own.

Bad Stuff:
Still a horribly expensive, tedious, and limiting army to collect.
AoFs don't scale well with larger armies.
Some of the flavor has been lost... special wargear, relics, etc.

My army is illegal. I also find it weird that they made Storm Bolters and Combi-Bolters the same weapon, and gave variable fire settings on plasma for both Loyalists and Chaos.

...I feel like my army is now naughty Loyalists and the Gav Thotpe codex felt more like a Chaos Space Marine army. :(

I like the simplicity, I like the 360 degree firing on vehicles and no facing, just imagine it moved to face that way and no more rear armor made of tissue for instant killing with drop podded meta sternguard.

I love the vehicles like monstrous creatures and that both get weaker with wounds.

loving the simplicity of power levels for pickup games

as for dislikes

I dislike that imperial knights (compared to gorka/morkanaught and wraithknight) and several other things are still very undercosted while others are still grossly overcosted (stompa, nob bikers, broadsides)

I dislike that orks tau and necrons lost all ally possibilities for matched while imperium gets an amazing array of models to slot in.

I dislike that a unit chooses to disengage from combat and just walks away without being struck in the back and losing some wounds. so orks charge space marines, orks kill most of them but 1-2 decide to leave so orks can be shot, at least give my boys a chance to finish em as the turn their backs and run either mortal wounds or 1 more round of combat where only the non fleeing side gets to act would be more realistic. maybe they miss their attacks but more likely they just finish the people leaving or if they have good armor like terminators the attacks might not hit home or be able to go through the armor.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
My complaints.

I had to sell my Demons - Losing access to a BRB psychic tree means my Space Wolves and Deathwatch can't summon them anymore.

In fairness, the fact that loyalists or eldar or orks, or anyone besides chaos, for that matter, ever could summon demons was pretty dumb. I could maaaaaaaaaaaaybe see grey knights doing it, but for tiggy and friends to pull demons out of a hat, better than any csm character could do, was extremely silly.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
My army is illegal. I also find it weird that they made Storm Bolters and Combi-Bolters the same weapon, and gave variable fire settings on plasma for both Loyalists and Chaos.

...I feel like my army is now naughty Loyalists and the Gav Thotpe codex felt more like a Chaos Space Marine army. :(

Your army isn't illegal. It just doesn't do your silly gimmick is all.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

I dislike that imperial knights (compared to gorka/morkanaught and wraithknight) and several other things are still very undercosted while others are still grossly overcosted (stompa, nob bikers, broadsides)

Are wraithknights undercosted? Everyone else seems to be saying that they're so overcosted as to be useless.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

I dislike that a unit chooses to disengage from combat and just walks away without being struck in the back and losing some wounds. so orks charge space marines, orks kill most of them but 1-2 decide to leave so orks can be shot, at least give my boys a chance to finish em as the turn their backs and run either mortal wounds or 1 more round of combat where only the non fleeing side gets to act would be more realistic. maybe they miss their attacks but more likely they just finish the people leaving or if they have good armor like terminators the attacks might not hit home or be able to go through the armor.

Agreed.

I was trying to think what would be reasonable in terms of disengaging.

Maybe something like 'roll a d6 for each model in the disengaging unit and it suffers a Mortal Wound for each 6 rolled'?

 vipoid wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

I dislike that imperial knights (compared to gorka/morkanaught and wraithknight) and several other things are still very undercosted while others are still grossly overcosted (stompa, nob bikers, broadsides)

Are wraithknights undercosted? Everyone else seems to be saying that they're so overcosted as to be useless.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

I dislike that a unit chooses to disengage from combat and just walks away without being struck in the back and losing some wounds. so orks charge space marines, orks kill most of them but 1-2 decide to leave so orks can be shot, at least give my boys a chance to finish em as the turn their backs and run either mortal wounds or 1 more round of combat where only the non fleeing side gets to act would be more realistic. maybe they miss their attacks but more likely they just finish the people leaving or if they have good armor like terminators the attacks might not hit home or be able to go through the armor.

Agreed.

I was trying to think what would be reasonable in terms of disengaging.

Maybe something like 'roll a d6 for each model in the disengaging unit and it suffers a Mortal Wound for each 6 rolled'?

the parentheses gorka/moprkanaught and wraithknight were "compared to" as in things to compare the Imperial Knight to which are in the same power range but cost more for some reason. wraithknights wend from under costed in 7th to overcosted in 8th

fresus wrote:

xmbk wrote:

Agusto wrote:
I heard from Reecius during one of their live battles at Frontline gaming that they considered making it a +1 to go first for LVO in stead of just getting first turn.

Both methods are close to the same, statistically. I go, you go has a lot of tactics to it. Placing last is certainly an advantage, just as moving last can be worth a vp. I do think placing models off board as a drop can be abused. They should count as drops, but only after on board models have been placed.

Current method, you have an 83% chance to go first (5/6).
Roll-off between two players, giving +1 on the roll to one, rerolling ties, it's 68% (21/31) chance to go first with the bonus, so slightly better than 1 in 3. I actually think it's pretty fair.

One of the worst things in this edition is how the last person to place an objective marker is the one that chooses his/her deployment side. It's a very significant advantage, and I can't understand why they chose to do it that way.

My only issue with the +1 is the way deployment works heavily favors MSU armies. So if I can place my chaff, and you place all your important units, then I counter deploy, and have a decent chance at going first (can I re-roll that dice roll with a command point?, if so can my opponent re-roll after I re-roll?) it is a pretty large advantage. I can see the opposite being a problem armies like knights have so few drops they will always go first. I feel like this is a problem with Knight/Super heavy armies, rather than the rules in general. Perhaps a good compromise would be +1 to the roll to go first, then an additional +1 for every 5 drops after the first. So if a knight army had 4 drops it would get +1 against armies with 5-10 Drops, +2 against 11-15 drops, etc

 G00fySmiley wrote:

the parentheses gorka/moprkanaught and wraithknight were "compared to" as in things to compare the Imperial Knight to which are in the same power range but cost more for some reason. wraithknights wend from under costed in 7th to overcosted in 8th

Ah, so it was. Sorry, I misread that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
My army is illegal. I also find it weird that they made Storm Bolters and Combi-Bolters the same weapon, and gave variable fire settings on plasma for both Loyalists and Chaos.

...I feel like my army is now naughty Loyalists and the Gav Thotpe codex felt more like a Chaos Space Marine army. :(

Your army isn't illegal. It just doesn't do your silly gimmick is all.

Can't run 3-man units of Terminators, or solo Obliterators (which are now a "randumb devcent" rather than a jack-of-trades troubleshooter), or Bikes with Pistol&Chainsword (I can do Chainsword or pistol, but swapping for a special is superior now), melee cultists got a hideous price hike and Dirge Casters are gone.

Yep, it's a "silly gimmick" alright. Why wasn't I playing a Loyalist army again?

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Can't run 3-man units of Terminators, or solo Obliterators (which are now a "randumb devcent" rather than a jack-of-trades troubleshooter), or Bikes with Pistol&Chainsword (I can do Chainsword or pistol, but swapping for a special is superior now), melee cultists got a hideous price hike and Dirge Casters are gone.

Obviously a bit of re-organization is in order, but that is hardly unusual for a new edition. Combine your Terminators and Obliterators into larger units (or use the under-strength unit rules, punitive as they may be). Your bikers simply have options, pick which one you want on a game-by-game basis (also, how do they steer?). You can live without Dirge Casters, and Cultists going up in points hardly makes them illegal.

I absolutely love 8th. I'd vowed NEVER AGAIN after 6th hit, but the new gameplay has been fantastic.

My only quibbles are hitting flyers with flamers and the lack of tankshock.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
My army is illegal. I also find it weird that they made Storm Bolters and Combi-Bolters the same weapon, and gave variable fire settings on plasma for both Loyalists and Chaos.

...I feel like my army is now naughty Loyalists and the Gav Thotpe codex felt more like a Chaos Space Marine army. :(

Your army isn't illegal. It just doesn't do your silly gimmick is all.

Can't run 3-man units of Terminators, or solo Obliterators (which are now a "randumb devcent" rather than a jack-of-trades troubleshooter), or Bikes with Pistol&Chainsword (I can do Chainsword or pistol, but swapping for a special is superior now), melee cultists got a hideous price hike and Dirge Casters are gone.

Yep, it's a "silly gimmick" alright. Why wasn't I playing a Loyalist army again?

honestly I think terminators should be base 3 per unit for loyalists and chaos alike... here we have a super elite group of warriors in nearly invulnerable armor... can't be trusted to run in fewer numbers than a tac squad. GW has been on the "one box = one unit" kick, so I am really not super surprised by the csm termies going to 5 per unit.

oblits got hit hard by the nerf bat and it sucks I loved their varying profiles they were the heavy weapons swiss army knife but now just meh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CatPeeler wrote:
I absolutely love 8th. I'd vowed NEVER AGAIN after 6th hit, but the new gameplay has been fantastic.

My only quibbles are hitting flyers with flamers and the lack of tankshock.

play orks! put deffrollas on the battle wagons... it is pretty shocking to your opponent

Overall, I am happy with the game.

My GK army works nicely with a good variety of units to choose from now and be effective.

My Marine army is playable. Though, I always feel I am missing something when I compare my GK vs my vanilla Marines.

My Chaos Demons are fine.

My foot eldar are extremely powerful because I was bored many years ago and bought 50 rangers for my troops.

My Deathguard force isn't valid anymore. As I spent the money to get 27 FW Terminators and Deathguard cannot have terminators. So, I could field them as Chaos Terminators with a lot of rot and Death guard symbols, but they would have to be a different legion.

So, except for my last army.. I am good.

 CatPeeler wrote:
I absolutely love 8th. I'd vowed NEVER AGAIN after 6th hit, but the new gameplay has been fantastic.

My only quibbles are hitting flyers with flamers and the lack of tankshock.

In 40k, flyers only travel ~15 feet off the ground, that's totally in range of a flamethrower.

GW is just playing by WYSIWYG.

Overall - 90% satisfied.

Space Wolves;

I like most of the changes. My Blood Claws are useful, my Heroes feel like actual heroes rather than just "upgraded versions of a stock unit". My Greyhunters extra wargear option is inconvenient to have to go back and remodel them for WYSIWYG (adding chainswords), but fluffwise it's a great change.

I dislike that a good portion of my army is "illegally" modeled now, however I'm hoping that this is noticed when the official "full codex" comes out for them (Thunderwolf Cavalry cannot take double wolf claws anymore, terminator and wolf-guard stormshield hand issues, Lone Wolf Wold Claws, etc, have all lead to a good deal of "legal in 7th, illegal in 8th index). But like I said, I hope that's resolved soon.

Imperial Knights;

I like the changes from Hullpoints to Wounds. From the more than dozen games I've played with them so far, they feel "fair" even in the most casual-story based settings, and especially in matched play. But the cost of that "fairness" saw some significant decreasing in their effectiveness. Overall, my positive note for them, is that I'm happy people are ok playing my full Knight list now (and indeed, happy to play it).

Negatives for the IK, is that they have a substantial increase in RNG to a game already largely decided by RNG. Template weapons moving to RNG shots has reduced the effectiveness by a substantial portion of the wargear and loadout options. (Take Avenger Gatling Cannons or don't bother seems to be the warcry these days.)

Added to that, is a substantial points increase (between a 1.16 and a 1.22 modifier in points increased) to be traded for worse shooting makes it almost impossible to run a 5 Knight Household in a 2000 pt game (unless you do all Melee only Knights with no wargear), which is probably what I consider the biggest loss.

Adding to that just how easy it is to kill the knights with a basic lascannon or heavy weapons team (with how much ap- guns have these days, Knights basically get a 5++ save, and when they fail it, lose 1/4 of their health every lascannon shot).

Still super fun though.

Forgeworld Knights got a better shake of the stick, however, I am saddened that the Castigator lost his "anti-horde" identity and traded it for a generic "anti vehicle anti MC", which is something every knight already does. Sort of lost our best option for anti swarms with that change.

On top of that, Forgeworld Knights substantial points increase makes it even harder to run more than 3 Knights in a 2000 point list.

Ad Mech;

This is where I noticed the biggest change. Ad Mech have been playing very well for me, riding the back of a single unit and loadout; Cawl + Datasmith + 6 Kastallen Robots with triple Phospur.

Ad Mech lost a lot of their flavor identity, and troop effectiveness is substantially down with weapons changes. Vanguard / Rangers took a decent hit, Infiltrators, Ruststalkers, and Cataphrons got hit with a whollap. Lack of transports still really hurts an already weak troop-level option/

Heavy support options and HQ's seem to be playing better than ever, and are strong enough to not only keep the army alive, but to excel.


All in all, my impressions on a scale of 1 being totally unhappy, to 10 being ecstatic.

Space Wolves - 7/10 (illegal models cost it points)

Imperial Knights - 6/10 (Template weapon RNG has restricted viable loadouts, and points increase largely prevents running PURE Knight army, relegating them to a single knight support army.)

Ad Mech - 8/10 (Troopsand their weapon nerfs, and lack of transports, continues to take it's toll, but Heavy Support options are better than ever!)

Rules Overall - 9.5/10 (Love the simplification of rules, makes it easier and faster to play a game. Allows me to take a mixed variety of units rather than just spamming the "best model" in the codex.)

Coming back from 3rd edition. I have mixed feelings. I think the game has massive fundamental flaws in it's rules writing. But, it's better than it's been before, so that's something.

It's not a balanced game competitively yet, but it's closer than I've ever seen GW get.

I think when GT organizers or GW get some faq's and erratta's going it's probably going to be a good game. Till then it's fun, as a casual game where you come to an agreement with your opponent before the game what rules you will and won't be using, and how you will interpret the garbage phrasing of the english language.

 vipoid wrote:

- The character targeting rules seem more than a little off. "The swirling maelstrom of battle can make it difficult to pick out such individuals as targets." Okay, so why is it that you can shoot a terminator captain just in front of a squad of near-identical terminators, but you can't shoot a daemon prince standing behind a single cultist half his size? .

If any character has more than 10 wounds he can be picked out because of his size as per BRB

I'm totally happy with the new edition, it feels like how I always imagined 40k to be. Bloody, so very bloody. In this edition it feels like things actually die, as opposed to 7th edition where some armies had ways of designing their force that would ensure that basically nothing died at all. 8th is a vast improvement in my eyes.

 supreme overlord wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

- The character targeting rules seem more than a little off. "The swirling maelstrom of battle can make it difficult to pick out such individuals as targets." Okay, so why is it that you can shoot a terminator captain just in front of a squad of near-identical terminators, but you can't shoot a daemon prince standing behind a single cultist half his size? .

If any character has more than 10 wounds he can be picked out because of his size as per BRB

The CSM DP has 8 wounds, which is the one I believe Vipoid was talking about.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 supreme overlord wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

- The character targeting rules seem more than a little off. "The swirling maelstrom of battle can make it difficult to pick out such individuals as targets." Okay, so why is it that you can shoot a terminator captain just in front of a squad of near-identical terminators, but you can't shoot a daemon prince standing behind a single cultist half his size? .

If any character has more than 10 wounds he can be picked out because of his size as per BRB

The CSM DP has 8 wounds, which is the one I believe Vipoid was talking about.

Indeed.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
My complaints.

I had to sell my Demons - Losing access to a BRB psychic tree means my Space Wolves and Deathwatch can't summon them anymore.

In fairness, the fact that loyalists or eldar or orks, or anyone besides chaos, for that matter, ever could summon demons was pretty dumb. I could maaaaaaaaaaaaybe see grey knights doing it, but for tiggy and friends to pull demons out of a hat, better than any csm character could do, was extremely silly.

Did I say Space Wolves and Deathwatch? I meant to say Alpha Legion agents who happened to be in those armies.
Besides, with all the free stuff and undercosted units other armies were nabbing risking perils on any double to get extra bodies seems like honest payment. Even from a fluff perspective every army but except the Grey Knights should have the ability to risk their body and soul for Daemonic aid - that's kind of what daemons do, come to think of it Chaos Marines have already sold their souls, Chaos Daemons, Nids and Necrons don't have souls, Tau don't believe in magic.
That kind of leaves Eldar, Loyalists and Orks.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
My army is illegal. I also find it weird that they made Storm Bolters and Combi-Bolters the same weapon, and gave variable fire settings on plasma for both Loyalists and Chaos.

...I feel like my army is now naughty Loyalists and the Gav Thotpe codex felt more like a Chaos Space Marine army. :(

Your army isn't illegal. It just doesn't do your silly gimmick is all.

Can't run 3-man units of Terminators, or solo Obliterators (which are now a "randumb devcent" rather than a jack-of-trades troubleshooter), or Bikes with Pistol&Chainsword (I can do Chainsword or pistol, but swapping for a special is superior now), melee cultists got a hideous price hike and Dirge Casters are gone.

Yep, it's a "silly gimmick" alright. Why wasn't I playing a Loyalist army again?

1. Nobody was running just a single Obliterator or single 3 Man Terminator squad in their army. Plus with the amount of models in the box your army with Obliterators and Terminators is not illegal. You just aren't happy you can't run them the specific way YOU want to run them.
2. No, Obliterators weren't a jack-of-all-trades unit. You used maybe 3 or 4 guns on it out of the 8 or so options, with you getting a max of 3 rounds on any gun. They're fine as is, though Assault 3 wouldn't hurt.
3. Your Bikers have a Bolt Pistol and random melee weapon. Problem solved.

I'm telling you, as a CSM player, you're complaining to complain. That's it.

Only played one game so far, but I like most of it so far. About the only things I don't like are:

1. the reroll "clarification" - sorry, but applying modifiers after the reroll is counter-intuitive nonsense. I may understand how it works, but it is IMO a flat out stupid design decision.

2. Lack of fire arcs on vehicles. Sure, the rules are simple, but frankly this one totally messes with my suspension of disbelief in the game. And don't give me the "well, they could have pivoted multiple times during movement" excuse. It's just wrong IMO.

3. How reserves work in Matched Play. Essentially there is no such a concept as Reserves anymore unless the specific unit says it can be deployed in an alternate manner. Seems wrong to me. They have it in Narrative Play so why they didn't keep those rules in Matched I have no idea, but whatever.

I like the rules, but really, really dislike the force org chart shenanigans you can (still) pull off.

11 Daemon Princes, 100+ Tau gun drones and a few commanders, 150+ Brimstone Horrors ...