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So In my second game of 8th overall I was playing Greyknights.

I had Draigo on the front lines and I drove a Razorback with twin assault cannons into range of his re-roll all failed to hits aura. I proceeded to roll and rolled a bunch of 3's - technically misses due to the -1 modifier for firing heavy weapons and moving. My opponent said I can't reroll the 3's because they are technically not misses (because modifiers are applied at the end of a roll or something - don't know the exact wordage) this just felt wrong to me. Why make something complicated like that in a game that is supposed to simplify the rules? Anyone run into this? Can I not reroll those 3's?

Your friend was correct, because modifiers are applied 'After' dice rolls.

This is a hot topic of something GW dropped the bar on in this edition.

 Latro_ wrote:
Your friend was correct, because modifiers are applied 'After' dice rolls.

This is a hot topic of something GW dropped the bar on in this edition.

Well I'm glad I didn't put up a fight because I would have be wrong and it was just a friendly game. It just seems silly because they are both technically modifiers to the to hit roll - they should be applied simultaneously. But Alas...

They did it to avoid a rules complication and created one instead.

You reroll misses that are based on your stats, not off the modifiers. So when a Space Marine has a 3+ BS, you can only reroll ones and twos, regardless if any negative modifiers addedp in afterwards. Simply use the WS, BS, or Str unmodified to get your rerolls.


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Personally I like it. I hated playing Reroll Hammer that was 7th edition, considering certain armies had more rerolls than others. Hi, we're Orks, we hit on 5 and 6. No rerolls. But eldar and Marines with better stats have better rerolls. Sigh

Yes its a clunky chuncky monkey.

Look for it to be removed in the future.

Pancakey wrote:
Yes its a clunky chuncky monkey.

Look for it to be removed in the future.

Age of Sigmar has had this mechanic since day one and hasn't caused any problems in that game. I don't see it being removed in 40K.

It's not clunky. Look at your stats on the datasheet. THAT is what you get to reroll. Simple.


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Whether those rerolls help you or not is another thing, but the actual mechanic is easy.

This.. this is nonsense isn't it?
Like, space marines reroll failed morale checks. Well you can't fail a morale check before modifiers.

You have to consider modifiers in the success/fail criteria before making your reroll, it makes no sense otherwise.

Morale is a whole other process. People are being very pedantic now. Do we need GW to hold our hands during every game.

Honestly yes, more hand holding. It's going to take a lot to persuade your average 40k player that they can't reroll a dice they know has failed because it hasn't failed 'yet'.

Real simple FAQ answer would be, rerolls only apply to the actual roll of the di(c)e. They cannot be rerolled after modifiers are applied.

It already says in the basic rules that rerolls are applied before modifiers. I don't see the need for a FAQ

Easiest thing to do is pretty much forget everything you know about previous editions and just treat this like a new game. The re-roll mechanic might seem odd compared to 7th, but if you look at it fresh, it's just a nice way of getting a few re-rolls. Works nice and quick because as mentioned above, you're just comparing the fails to you base BS.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
This.. this is nonsense isn't it?
Like, space marines reroll failed morale checks. Well you can't fail a morale check before modifiers.

You have to consider modifiers in the success/fail criteria before making your reroll, it makes no sense otherwise.

Except that's not how the morale works. The dice roll is not a characteristic check like WS and BS. You just add the number of casualties to the dice roll, and for every point that exceeds the leadership value you take a casualty. That's it, its that simple.
I've noticed people being complicated about it and trying to calculate it by reducing leadership. That's not how its done.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
So In my second game of 8th overall I was playing Greyknights.

I had Draigo on the front lines and I drove a Razorback with twin assault cannons into range of his re-roll all failed to hits aura. I proceeded to roll and rolled a bunch of 3's - technically misses due to the -1 modifier for firing heavy weapons and moving. My opponent said I can't reroll the 3's because they are technically not misses (because modifiers are applied at the end of a roll or something - don't know the exact wordage) this just felt wrong to me. Why make something complicated like that in a game that is supposed to simplify the rules? Anyone run into this? Can I not reroll those 3's?

IThat's how it works. Its explained in the rule book and in the Designer's Commentary.
Its not complicated, you can only reroll natural misses now.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:



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 Xenomancers wrote:
So In my second game of 8th overall I was playing Greyknights.

I had Draigo on the front lines and I drove a Razorback with twin assault cannons into range of his re-roll all failed to hits aura. I proceeded to roll and rolled a bunch of 3's - technically misses due to the -1 modifier for firing heavy weapons and moving. My opponent said I can't reroll the 3's because they are technically not misses (because modifiers are applied at the end of a roll or something - don't know the exact wordage) this just felt wrong to me. Why make something complicated like that in a game that is supposed to simplify the rules? Anyone run into this? Can I not reroll those 3's?

IThat's how it works. Its explained in the rule book and in the Designer's Commentary.
Its not complicated, you can only reroll natural misses now.

except when we read the FAQ it's not til after modifiers are applied that we finally compare to the BS to determine which dice hit or miss. We have a special rule that allows us to reroll misses. special rules trump the rule book, and would allow the rerolling of any misses after modifiers. Follow the FAQ they don't check against the BS twice, only after modifiers do we consult the BS.

To check it twice leads to madness. you end up creating a situation where you hit and miss with the same die roll, then when you go to roll for wounds the madness begins.
if you scored a hit roll to wound.

I scored a hit so I get to roll to wound
others: but you missed
so I get to reroll
others: no because you hit
I scored a hit so I get to roll to wound

-

Are rerolls manditory? If you have a unit that is receiving rerolls for any reason can you opt to not reroll?

Crazy Jay wrote:
Are rerolls manditory? If you have a unit that is receiving rerolls for any reason can you opt to not reroll?

You'd have to look at the wording of each instance to determine if the re-roll is mandatory.

The thing is that the rule is pretty straight-forward, but the rule GW wrote is really unintuitive.

I dislike it because it means calling a shot that's obviously going to miss - since I know ALL the modifiers before i roll my dice - to be counted as a "successful hit". It's clearly not, since it's a miss. And there's a really easy solution to all of this:
Introduce the words "roll result" and "unmodified roll". Use one for stuff that wants to be triggered by the number on your dice, use the other for when you want to know if that action failed.

Maybe you could find some better, fancier words for it, I'm no native speaker. But it would work, and it would be intuitive to new players without leaving room for discussions

The easiest solution is for GW to remove all re-rolls, then it will be simpler to use.

Loopstah wrote:
The easiest solution is for GW to remove all re-rolls, then it will be simpler to use.

Yes, but that would reduce the game. I'd rather have to watch where my Captain is standing so that the devastator squad still has their rerollable 1's.

Instead of reroll ability, just give modifications to hit. A lot cleaner

The problem is that players jump the gun based on old editions. They look at their to hit, then think modifiers, then roll dice. Just stop doing that. Go in sequence. Roll your dice, reroll misses, then look at remaining hits, apply modifiers. Done.
Do it a few times and it will seem natural.

 bullyboy wrote:
The problem is that players jump the gun based on old editions. They look at their to hit, then think modifiers, then roll dice. Just stop doing that. Go in sequence. Roll your dice, reroll misses, then look at remaining hits, apply modifiers. Done.
Do it a few times and it will seem natural.

I DO know my modifiers before I shoot. No good player will ever go "alright, 5+ to hit that Valkyrie with my Lascannon, let's see what happens, I get to reroll failed hits" when the Valkyrie is not hovering and the Lascannon had to move. It's a 7+ to hit, and I won't hit that Valkyrie ever - and that's obvious. Yet the rules tell us that 5s and 6s are not failed hit rolls. I don't think it'll ever feel right or "natural" to me to consider a clear miss a "successful hit".

This is the simplest thing that I have ever come across.

Just ask this question. "When are hits and misses determined?"

If it's determined a miss after this point...reroll.

Saying that hits or misses are determined before hits and misses are determined is utter hogwash.