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 andysonic1 wrote:

Chaos is kind of screwed unless you can get rid of the commissar unless I'm missing something, but I haven't really read that index enough yet.

We have Berserkers, high attack/damage monsters and dreadnaughts, and Forge World goodies. That's ignoring the tons of shooting we can bring. Just because we can't snipe the Commie doesn't mean we can't mulch through the entire blob in one turn if we wanted. It'll cost more than the blob, sure, but it'll leave whatever the blob was defending completely defenseless.

That hellforged leviathan with grav-flux bombard looks deadly. 11d3 shots against a 50 man squad. Str9 ap-5. I heard that the Imperial version can take two...

 blackmage wrote:

Most horde infantry have terrible saves. Plus, the whirlwind always can target the unit with no cover

problem is horror spam they have a 4++ save, and sadly they are the cheapest troops in the game, you can spam 30 models for 60pt, for me is broken

The main "balancing factor" with brimstone horrors is that they're basically space fillers on the board; outside of the one pink in the group (which is a more fairly priced 10 point model) doling out a mortal wound 1/3 turns they're unlikely to actually do damage to anything. They certainly aren't as lethal as conscripts with orders.

Of course in an edition where sheer model count can win an objective they may still be undercosted.

Chaos also has sniping via psychic powers. Which isn't ideal but it works in a pinch.

Intruder wrote:
@jamopower A demon prince with 2x malefic talons is 156 points. So if he ties up a 50 man conscript squad + commissar (180 points), you're actually getting the better cost efficiency. Not only that, he's also going to kill them all before they kill him.

Not that I would straight up charge them like that - I have a tactic now called 'suddenly Heldrake'. He kills priority targets (eg. commissars) these days because 30' movement.

@fe40k Don't talk about things you don't know.
Daemon Prince, 2x Malefic Talons - 156 points
Hebrute. Power Scourge + Helbrute Fist(w/ combi-bolter) - 157 points
5 Warp talons, 2 lightning claws each - 140 points
5 Chaos Spawn - 165 points
5 Havocs, 4x Heavy Bolters - 105 points
5 Chaos Terminators, 5x combi-bolters, 5x power axes - 190 points

And all would beat the conscript squad. The only things 'well over the 150/180 conscript squad' is the defiler and the lord of skulls. Which is fair enough, seeing as they would decimate the conscript squad.

And concerning the 'op artillery units' - why do we take in the conscripts support and not the other sides?? You don't think I'll bring the rest of my fething army to kill gak too? The point is moot, anyway - this is a thread about infantry spam. I have no idea whether AM as a whole is overpowered, and neither do you.

@Voss I play Pask Punisher + 3 HB sponsons. Ups the damage considerably. Will beat a conscript squad with ease. No I'm not going to fething sit there shooting them all game, they barely do any damage at max strength let alone when half of them are dead.

Damage isn't the point, protecting the rest of the army is. The damage they do through sheer statistics is just a bonus.. But no, Pask doesn't beat a conscript squad, let alone with ease. His BS2+ up the damages from 6-7 kills to... 10. Woo.

But then none of the chaos squads you mentioned make an impressive showing against conscripts either. At some point you actually need to sit down and do the math, not to determine outcomes precisely, but just to have a vague idea what these units are capable of. It's really far from what you seem to think it is.

 Marmatag wrote:
Can you kill 50 conscripts + commissar in 1-2 turns with double the points or less?

You have 360 points. Build a small force (not subject to force org, we'll assume it's part of a bigger army) that can eliminate that in 1-2 turns.

Assume that the commissar is protecting the conscripts with reasonable line of sight issues and challenges, and you can't deep-strike charge the commissar.

For 349 points:
Stormraven with twin assault cannon, twin heavy bolter, and two hurricane bolters average about 15 dead conscripts a turn
5 Sniper Scouts average killing the Commissar by the end of turn 2

Including morale, that's 30 conscripts dead from shooting, and 15 dead from morale, leaving 5 left.

If you're using 2 indexes, with Ratlings you could kill the Commissar turn 1, fully wipe the Conscripts turn 2, and have 30 points left over.
I'm sure there's more efficient options, but I was too lazy to look beyond my army list (I'm using a Stormraven with a typhoon launcher instead of a heavy bolter, but the kill math comes out similar, and with Ratlings puts it at 363 points) and what I've already dug through for snipers.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

RoninXiC wrote:
Why would a 150 point models needs to kill 3x150 points in game to be considered good?

Basics of game strategy. When you bring a unit in your list, it has a job. It's usually killin' dudes, and typically focused at killin' certain types of dudes. Obviously there are other jobs like transports who just want to move another unit from a to b in a hurry, body swarms gettin' all up in your way, force multiplier dudes etc.

For your army to do well, you want a significant portion of your units to do their job, and you want them to accomplish it in a timely manner. Because, especially in the case of units whose job is killin' their dudes or harassing them so they can't do stuff, every turn it takes to do that job is another turn that the opponent's unit(s) have to accomplish THEIR job.

You want units to be able to do their job in 2-3 turns, because they might not even live longer than that. Taking all game to do a job is a fail. The unit is either going to get killed before finishing, or the unit it was supposed to be killing will succeed in whatever they wanted to do, maybe twice over.

Your argument is disingenuous on several levels:

1st: Points efficiency is a terrible metric by which to measure a units effectiveness. You can measure firepower output in numbers of expected wounds for a given target, or its inverse the amount of a certain type of weapon shots that a unit will absorb per turn, but points efficiency is ultimately irrelevant. You fight with your entire army, not one unit, and only one mission has murdering other units as the primary objective.

2. Do you know why most units cannot make their points back vs their typical target? Because otherwise they would be utterly broken.

Take this fictional example: my army contains a 300point model, the Uberlaserpaperpanzer. Said Uberlaserpaperpanzer can kill 300 points of Tactical Marines a turn (on average). This unit is utterly broken, as it is not only extremely effective at killing Tactical Marines it is by virtues of its weapons characteristics needed to achieve such points efficiency it is also capable of killing most any other unit in the game in a slightly less efficient manner.

Dissatisfied with my fictional example? Let's enter the realm of the real: 7th edition Eldar. Scatbikers were more than capable of killing their points worth of models in a single turn. The Wraithknight was arguably the best unit ever for this. Scatbikers and Wraithknights were utterly broken.

Really, a unit is "points efficient" if it on average makes its points back in 2-4 turns, or achieves some other objective of equal importance. One does not need to baleet whole armies.

*assuming it's not made of paper

Worth mention:

I played a game against Necrons today using Sisters of Battle, and a game against Daemons/Renegade Guard using Imperial Guard.

With the Necrons vs. Sisters game the opposition brought 3 fairly large blocks of Necron Warriors and Immortals, a Cryptek, Ghost Arks, and a few more things. I went into them off the bat with Celestine, Dominions, and Seraphim. I was more than able to lock them down, throwing Repressors into melee with Immortals, and charging and hacking apart his Annihilation Barges and Ghost Arks with Celestine, but his large chunk of infantry was very hard to kill. Between the Ghost Arks and the Cryptek, he could regenerate the entire blob from one model in each turn. Eventually I did wipe one blob out because he tried to charge a unit of Dominions armed with Flamers, I got to overwatch him, he failed the charge, re-rolled with a CP and still failed, and then I got to use my AoF to burn and burn again during my next turn, effectively giving my unit 3 shooting phases against him, and allowing me to add the firepower of several nearby units and heavy flamer armed transport tanks to ensure he died, and even then, it was just by a hair I got the last guy.

If Conscripts are OP because they don't die to their equivalent points cost in a few turns, or even double their points cost, and ignore morale, I don't see how Necrons aren't a source of greater complaint. 20-man blobs are basically invincible to anything near their equivalent points cost, and Ld10 is effectively morale-proof. For the record, his army as a whole wasn't actually particularly challenging to overcome, as I was able to cut through his armor like butter with Celestine and an excessive number of flamers. Interestingly enough in that regard, my Seraphim Hand Flamers and Flamer Dominions worked better against tanks than Melta Dominions, because his Quantum Shielding just stonewalled Meltaguns.


As far as Guard vs. Renegades went, I brought 50 conscripts, and they were effectively gone by the end of turn 2. He had a Stormlord full of Mortars and a massive number of Horrors, and a Helldrake, which went through my light infantry like crap through a goose. I think I had a Commissar, a CC, a single infantryman, and maybe 3 conscripts left of my foot elements. Fortunately, my army was not primarily light infantry, and my Shadowsword vaporized his Stormlord and my Pask Battle Tank wiped out the Helldrake, and my Wyvern and Punisher methodically chewed their way through the Horrors. His Horrors didn't have a battleshock problem, though. At worst, he spent CP to prevent it if they were in real danger of fleeing.

Conscripts are good, don't get me wrong, and because Infantry can't blob up any more they're basically superior to our regular infantry from an efficiency standpoint, but I don't think they're a win-all games sort of thing. At worst, they're going to block antitank short-range deep strikers and CQC units, which isn't really a super big deal. My Sisters can get their antitank through them, and can evaporate them, so I don't think they're a big deal.



While I've been impressed with horde infantry's dramatic buffs, since it was basically a non-viable strategy last edition, I haven't witnessed this terrifying tidal wave of 'Gaunts, Boyz, and Conscripts sweeping away all before them. I think SM players are getting their underwear twisted in a knot over us having more bodies than they have guns, and not being able to make short work of every enemy army save Eldar anymore. We've got our thing now, as we were supposed to be, and it's good enough to be competitive, and that's nice. It's pretty clear that it hard counters some things, like Harlequins with Fusion Pistols, but is also hard countered by some other things, like flamethrower armed Dominions and Seraphim. Bring a balanced list, and I don't think there will be massive problems. Also, apparently drop-pod Pyrovores is effective against Conscripts, but haven't faced it yet to confirm.

And I've been getting more crap for having a wall of tanks than having a wall of bodies, and my tank list being un-fun and not-very-nice because nothing in it dies easily.

"Surprised Necron's aren't a source of greater complaint" followed up by; "His army as a whole wasn't particularly challenging to overcome."

Additionally, just shoot the 20 man squad until they're dead - IG have excellent weapons and artillery to wipe them out; they're just Space Marines with worse save.

"At worst, they're going to block antitank short-range deep strikers and CQC units, which isn't really a super big deal"

This is a huge deal, and adds significantly to the survivability of the rest of your army; every army (especially Imperium) is going to have solid deep strike options - you said you were playing an armor heavy list, then go to say that "blocking anti-tank deep strikers" isn't a big deal. It's a huge deal when your tanks and other vehicles can hide behind cover and keep shooting; or are rolling around in a group of Russ'.

Strategies are going to adjust. I fielded a 3 Crisis suit team with 9 flamers and 6 drones, cost about 228. Chewed through 50 conscripts and commie in 2 turns, they couldn't even charge it due to Overwatch. If too many heavy troop armies starting popping up despite the painting required, more of those "answer" units will pop up.

Another simple answer (again, outside of tournaments) is to not play that person. If someone walked up with 250 guard conscripts as their army...I wouldn't play them. Pretty simple solution there.

 Elbows wrote:
Another simple answer (again, outside of tournaments) is to not play that person. If someone walked up with 250 guard conscripts as their army...I wouldn't play them. Pretty simple solution there.

Just out of interest, can you put a number on what you would play? I'm thinking a 100 screen at 1.5-2k would work nice, or maybe something like 4x30. Trying to get an idea of when it would start to get unfun.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Another simple answer (again, outside of tournaments) is to not play that person. If someone walked up with 250 guard conscripts as their army...I wouldn't play them. Pretty simple solution there.

Just out of interest, can you put a number on what you would play? I'm thinking a 100 screen at 1.5-2k would work nice, or maybe something like 4x30. Trying to get an idea of when it would start to get unfun.

If you can't see the tanks for the infantry, you have too many conscripts

Alternatively, allocate 6 seconds per infantry model in the IG army, if the total number of seconds exceeds how long you're willing to give the opponent to set up, it's too many men.

pinecone77 wrote:
I don't play Orks, and I haven't faced Conscripts yet...but wouldn't a Truk full of Burna Boyz or the like lol through a blob? (Drive up, off load, charge Truk, hose down with Flammas charge Boyz)

Well burnas arent that great for their points. They only do d3 auto hits. And against conscripts the decent rend in combat (which can now be used in the same turn) is of no benefit to taking out conscripts.

Snazzguns from the flashgitz would be pretty good, albeit an expensive choice to dispense of the conscripts. 30 shots hitting on 4s, re-rolling 10 misses (ammo runts..always take ammo runts) wounding on 3s allowing no save. Also on a roll of a 6 then can immediately shoot again. Use a command point to re roll this.. so a 1/3 chance.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
I don't play Orks, and I haven't faced Conscripts yet...but wouldn't a Truk full of Burna Boyz or the like lol through a blob? (Drive up, off load, charge Truk, hose down with Flammas charge Boyz)

Well burnas arent that great for their points. They only do d3 auto hits. And against conscripts the decent rend in combat (which can now be used in the same turn) is of no benefit to taking out conscripts.

Snazzguns from the flashgitz would be pretty good, albeit an expensive choice to dispense of the conscripts. 30 shots hitting on 4s, re-rolling 10 misses (ammo runts..always take ammo runts) wounding on 3s allowing no save. Also on a roll of a 6 then can immediately shoot again. Use a command point to re roll this.. so a 1/3 chance.

Nobs with Kombi-skorchas would also be an expensive but good solution to the conscripts. 10 D6 S5 hits per turn, + 20 S4 shots (hitting on 6s), need to use a truck or wagon for delivery though. So on average that is 35 S5 hits per turn, and 3 S 4 hits (assuming no ammo runts). This would kill 20 Conscripts. This is a 360 point squad tough. Vs the 310 for the flashgits with ammo runts. The problem with flashgits is getting them in range while shooting on a 4+, this basically requires a battle wagon, making them more expensive than the Nobz + Trukk (471 to 442). If the Nobz are somehow able to get the charge after they shoot (would need to be very close to a bunched up squad.) They would likely lose 1 model to overwatch, They kill another 11 conscripts. (31 total), leaving 19 if it was a full squad. The Concripts kill off a second Nob (likely already wounded.), conscripts lose a model to morale. If they then fall back and the Nobz get killed that is a bad trade.

Probably best to stay in a vehicle as long as possible and keep flaming them as it is more effective than their close combat.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
I don't play Orks, and I haven't faced Conscripts yet...but wouldn't a Truk full of Burna Boyz or the like lol through a blob? (Drive up, off load, charge Truk, hose down with Flammas charge Boyz)

Well burnas arent that great for their points. They only do d3 auto hits. And against conscripts the decent rend in combat (which can now be used in the same turn) is of no benefit to taking out conscripts.

Snazzguns from the flashgitz would be pretty good, albeit an expensive choice to dispense of the conscripts. 30 shots hitting on 4s, re-rolling 10 misses (ammo runts..always take ammo runts) wounding on 3s allowing no save. Also on a roll of a 6 then can immediately shoot again. Use a command point to re roll this.. so a 1/3 chance.

That's 300 pts of flash gits killing 40 pts of conscripts. And don't forget, snazzguns are heavy and 24', so if you want to get into range, you got to move. Gits are a garbage unit. The only true answer are boyz with buffs.

I agree. Just throwing out gak solutions to a gak problem. Are we really having 4+ page thread about the OP conscript unit? lol so if we are going to have a ridiculous discussion why not ridiculous answers.

Also, Flash gitz are hardly garbage. A bit over costed maybe.. but garbage? That's hyperbole.

Look. Guys. We all know the real answer.

The second GW notices that SM's can't instastomp this CHEZ, G-willy Mareens will suddenly be twice as points efficient to counter it.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Another simple answer (again, outside of tournaments) is to not play that person. If someone walked up with 250 guard conscripts as their army...I wouldn't play them. Pretty simple solution there.

Just out of interest, can you put a number on what you would play? I'm thinking a 100 screen at 1.5-2k would work nice, or maybe something like 4x30. Trying to get an idea of when it would start to get unfun.

It's pretty easy to read a person (and often their army list). It boils down to fun. Not whether or not you're having fun, but whether or not you give two gaks about your opponent actually enjoying playing the game with you. Unless you're playing in some crazy tournament, a game is just that...a game, a fun hobby where we push little toy soldiers around a table and roll dice. If you don't care whether or not your opponent is enjoying the game...I'm not interested in playing with you. If you get enjoyment out of wiping someone off the table in turn one, or having an "impossible to kill" super meta-list...there's a good chance your opponent will not enjoy the game, at all - particularly if they're new.

Now if you approach me and say "Hey, it'd be cool to try like a prison break scenario, where I play all conscripts and you're playing Space Marines to put down the break out...just for kicks!" Sure. I may oblige you one game. But if you approach the game every week with the same net-list that grants you a 12.6% increase in the chance of winning...piss off. You can likely find someone who is of a similar mind - and if you want to just cheese out as hard as you can (against eachother) go nuts. For me it's not about the math, or the winning, it's about enjoying the time I spend playing the game. Some people enjoy just the opposite, that's all well and good.

It's not a personal dislike for said person/gamer/player, but our interests don't align, so I'm not going to waste my time playing in a game with someone like that. There are plenty of people who fit into both crowds.

fe40k wrote:
"Surprised Necron's aren't a source of greater complaint" followed up by; "His army as a whole wasn't particularly challenging to overcome."

Additionally, just shoot the 20 man squad until they're dead - IG have excellent weapons and artillery to wipe them out; they're just Space Marines with worse save.

"At worst, they're going to block antitank short-range deep strikers and CQC units, which isn't really a super big deal"

This is a huge deal, and adds significantly to the survivability of the rest of your army; every army (especially Imperium) is going to have solid deep strike options - you said you were playing an armor heavy list, then go to say that "blocking anti-tank deep strikers" isn't a big deal. It's a huge deal when your tanks and other vehicles can hide behind cover and keep shooting; or are rolling around in a group of Russ'.

I don't know, and don't think so.

I really think only Space Marines and their ilk are really dependent on Deep Strike, and even then, they don't actually have to be.

IG is fairly obviously not deep striking many things. My Sisters don't plan to deep strike Seraphim, because we can fly there faster using Acts of Faith and would be out of range is we arrived via deep strike.

A local Tyranid player expressed that he may drop Pyrovores in Mycetic Spores, and an Ork player was talking about using Da Jump, but both of these were means to close the 24" gap and are primarily looking at attacking the conscripts with the deep-strikers anyway, so the conscripts aren't really a problem.

The necrons aren't really deep-striking things either, and I'm fairly certain the eldar and things like them aren't going to be particularly invested in deep strike either.


So I don't really think the Deep Strike denial is a problem. The Space Marines are the only army that can actually effectively bring a deep-strike focused army.


The CQC problem is a bit harder to overcome, but IG has been doing the whole bubble-wrap against CQC with cheap riflemen since it seems like the beginning of time, and I don't see why it shouldn't work now. Their CQC survivability hasn't actually improved, and CQC offensive power hasn't been particularly hit either. The only addition is the ability to retreat from combat, which is absolutely necessary to prevent us from being a complete roll-over given the new transport rules.

Selym wrote:Look. Guys. We all know the real answer.

The second GW notices that SM's can't instastomp this CHEZ, G-willy Mareens will suddenly be twice as points efficient to counter it.

Pretty much. I think every army except Space Marines has a fairly efficient way to deal with conscripts and get at the armor behind them. Well, the tiny 3-unit "armies" don't, but that's because they're not really factions in their own right. And even then, the Space Marines have lascannon Predators and will almost always go first, and aren't really at a lack of ways to overcome the conscripts or just ignore them and take pot-shots at the tanks behind them.

I don't think SM need to Deep Strike. They just need to be able to defeat conscripts or other large infantry formations within a few turns and remain combat effective. The IG player is just trying to neuter fast enemy CC units by tying them up in wounds so they are stuck all game unable to really disrupt the guard player's better units.

They are just like the suicide bait squads in prior editions, to take a charge so your other units can get the charge next turn or fall back to get another round of shooting in. The downside of these large squads is they have a large footprint, so it's easy to get more then their points worth into combat with them. That in fact should be the goal all the time, to overwhelm your opponent with more points then they can respond with, so they lose units and yours remain combat effective.

You would never waste time having two identical tactical squads duke it out between one another. It would take all game for them to really resolve it. You would however use a tactical squad to prep an enemy tactical squad via shooting for an assault by your assault marines later in the same turn. One or two models can be the tipping point, making their return attacks so low as to statistically prevent return damage to your assault squad.

SM could easily focus the big group of conscripts down a bit in the shooting phase, then plow assault units into them and wipe them out in CC. Sure, they are now closer to the opponent's other units, but he now has 200 points less to deal with them. Is 200 points worth pulling those assault marines forward earlier?

With combat no longer really blocking LOS for shooting, what are these blob squads really protecting?

I find funny how what now is called "Infantry spam" before it was called simply an "Army"

This is a far more fair problem than 2++ rerollable deathstars. It's also a more reality-based challenge.

Why even bother shooting up the conscripts if you're worried more about the "OP tanks and artillery" behind them (FYI D6 hits on a standard Russ or Basilisk is far, faaar from OP, as I've discovered from using them)?

Pretty much every army has some degree of long range high S shooting, and if your army is so heavy on CC or DS that roadblock conscripts neutered your whole game plan, it's 100% your fault for losing the rock-paper-scissors that is list building. Even Orks have Big Gunz, Mek Gunz, Tankbustas, etc. Even Nids have Dakkafexes and Biovores. Some armies have Flying transports or flying CC/close range shooting units that can bypass screens to some extent.

Just because rock could bludgeon through paper in 7th doesn't mean you can expect the same results when paper is buffed up to or well above par in 8th.

RULE #1 AND RULE #2 are real things here and they are mandatory.

Medicinal Carrots wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Tell me how many points does it take for Snipers to kill a Commissar in 1 turn...

and yes it needs to be in 1 turn, I still need to deal with the blob... and potentially additional Commissars

Only counting the guys carrying the weapons, and not other members of their squads armed differently or optional gear on the model (i.e. camo cloaks). On average:
56 for 8 Ratlings
60 for 10 Guardsmen with sniper rifles
64 for 8 Guard Veterans with sniper rifles
70 for 2 Skitarii with Transuranic Arquebus
120 for 8 Sniper Scouts w/o camo cloaks
147 for 7 Wrack Acothysts with hexrifles
160 for 8 Eldar Rangers
160 for 8 Deathmarks
180 for 2 Vindicare Assassins
294 for 14 Sniper Drones and 1 Firesight Marksman
378 for 21 Sniper Drones with no support
430 for 5 Haemonculi with hexrifles
504 for 8 Sydonian Dragoons with Radium Jezzail

No options for Chaos, Orks, or Tyranids

This is all not taking into account other external buffs like nearby leaders allowing rerolls or bonuses to hit. The only one I included was a Firesight Marksman, who's primary purpose is to buff drones.

Marmatag wrote:Can you kill 50 conscripts + commissar in 1-2 turns with double the points or less?

You have 360 points. Build a small force (not subject to force org, we'll assume it's part of a bigger army) that can eliminate that in 1-2 turns.

Assume that the commissar is protecting the conscripts with reasonable line of sight issues and challenges, and you can't deep-strike charge the commissar.

Okay, we covered earlier that Orks and Tyranids blob infantry better than IG do, so they're just not a problem as long as the tyranid player brings enough toys to the battle in the first place.

But how do Chaos deal with 50 conscripts + a commissar?

IMO the proper solution was partially mentioned earlier in the thread: Khorne Berzerkers.

Well, zerks + a sorcerer, to be precise. And this unit isn't just a counter to the conscript blob. It's a straight-up steamroller.

10 zerks + a sorcerer that takes the Prescience power. Cast Prescience on the zerks, and charge into the conscripts.

In this case, because we're specifically countering conscripts, you don't need to upgrade the zerks. In practice, if it were me I'd probably stick with chainswords over chain axes because of how Prescience helps enable Death to the False Emperor, but plasma pistols are definitely an option as is some kind of weapon combo for the sergeant (I like lightning claws, myself)

So, this squad gets 30-31 attacks in the fight phase, and gets to fight twice. The best part is that Prescience not only allows you to hit on 2+, but because it just gives you +1 to hit it allows Death to the False Emperor to trigger on 5-6 rather than just on a 6. This turns your 30-31 attacks into 40-42 attacks with 10 models that hit on 2's, wound on 3's, and kill on 1-4 in melee. Before that, you get to shoot, which is going to be standard marine shooting with pistols. So, 9-10 shots, 6-7 hits, 4-5 wounds, 3-4 dead.

Then, after all that, you get Blood for the Blood God, which lets you do the melee twice every fight phase.

If you have the points to spend add a dark apostle for laughs and watch as you only miss with 1-3 attacks every round out of 80-84 attacks, and that's just the berzerkers.

Alternatively, instead of the apostle you can run a rhino for the berzerkers, and trade up on the sorcerer to give him a jump pack or a bike. You lose 10 hits per turn, but you'll have a better chance of getting to the conscripts in one piece.

That's roughly 40 dead the first turn after close combat. If you're also assaulting with your sorcerer and/or apostle you can easily wipe the entire squad, especially if your apostle is packing a combi-flamer or if you manage to get close enough to the conscripts before the charge to throw all three frag grenades. Those grenades will add another 10-11 S4 shots that should end with another 4-5 dead, which pushes the post-charge kill count up to 45, not counting CC kills from the apostle and the sorcerer. Between the two of them, they should be able to kill 5 more conscripts in CC.

 Arandmoor wrote:
Well, zerks + a sorcerer, to be precise.

Captain! The fluff cannae take no more!

 Trickstick wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:
Well, zerks + a sorcerer, to be precise.

Captain! The fluff cannae take no more!

Hey, if its good enough for THQ to have a chaos sorcerer of khorne, its good enough for us.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hey, if its good enough for THQ to have a chaos sorcerer of khorne, its good enough for us.

The fluff gods punished THQ for their impudence.

Actually I'll love to see some CSM version of the Khorne priest that they have in Age of Sigmar.

Praise Khorne at the Conan Style, killing your enemies, so he bless you with no-magic that work something like magic!