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Are they?

for example Venomtrophes -1 to hit stackable? If yes, can i squeeze 3 Venomthrophe Units together and surround them by 6 stupid long single rows of 20xGenestealers each and all get -3 to hit if just 1 of their Models is in 3" bubble range?

Same for Cryptek RP buff, Master Technomancer of Illuminor Szeras says you cant stack "Master Technomancy" and "Technomancy" , but can you stack basic Technomancies?


Can someone please point me to the right rulebook pages i couldnt find anything.

Thanks a lot!

Many of these abilities (like the ones Venomthropes and Crypteks have) are written in a way that suggests that they don't stack. They give a benefit to "units within 6" of any friendly <unit>", or similar.

Now, I guess there's a RAW case to be made that this means that if I have a unit near a Venomthrope, and another Venomthrope on the other side of the board, then that unit gets double the normal effect of the aura because it's near 1 Venomthrope and you have 2 units that give a benefit to units near any Venomthrope. But clearly what's intended here is that you're not supposed to be counting Venomthropes -- if a unit is near at least one Venomthrope then the rule applies, once. You should sort of read these rules as being on every other unit. You check each unit to see if it is near any Venomthrope, and if it is it gets the bonus, with no benefit from multiple Venomthropes.

Some auras, at least, aren't written this way. The Dark Angels' Darkshroud land speeder just says that it benefits unit within a distance of "this model". And that should stack, RAW, although this seems to clearly be unintended.

It states clearly in the BRB that modifiers and auras stack unless there's a restriction that says otherwise. In the case of the Venomthropes the ability specifically calls out the unit needs to be in range of at 1 or more units of Venomthropes to get the bonus. In this case it does NOT stack.

For the Cryptech I would have to double check but if it says simply units within x" get a +1 to their RP rolls then it CAN stack.

The only thing I don't know off hand is if Match Play rules place extra restrictions to keep auras from stacking

BomBomHotdog wrote:
It states clearly in the BRB that modifiers and auras stack unless there's a restriction that says otherwise. In the case of the Venomthropes the ability specifically calls out the unit needs to be in range of at 1 or more units of Venomthropes to get the bonus. In this case it does NOT stack.

For the Cryptech I would have to double check but if it says simply units within x" get a +1 to their RP rolls then it CAN stack.

The only thing I don't know off hand is if Match Play rules place extra restrictions to keep auras from stacking

That rule in the BRB is pretty confusing here, though, since it just makes the RAW case clearer that these things stack. I don't understand where you're seeing a restriction in the Venomthropes' rule. "Any Venomthrope" is clearly far more generous than "this Venomthrope", and everyone agrees that if the rule said "this Venomthrope" then it would stack.

For example, imagine that Space Marine Captains had a rule like: "friendly units within 6" of any friendly Librarian gets +1 to hit". Obviously this rule stacks with the number of Captains you have, but not with the number of Librarians in proximity -- there's nothing telling you the ability doesn't stack with the number of things that provide the buff, just that whether you get the buff only depends on if there is at least 1 Librarian. If a unit is near 1 Librarian and there are 5 Captains on the other side of the board, the unit gets +5 to hit. Same if it's near 2 or 3 Librarians -- it's still only +5 to hit. But if there are only 4 Captains then it just gets +4 to hit.

But that's the sort of rule that Venomthropes and Crypteks have. These units provide a buff to other units conditionally, and of course this buff can stack with multiple sources. Multiple Venomthropes give units near at least one Venomthrope a defensive buff for each Venomthrope in your whole army.

Now, obviously GW was trying to make this rule more restrictive than "units within 6" of this model" get some benefit, but they screwed up and actually wrote something which is a lot more generous.

Dionysodorus wrote:
That rule in the BRB is pretty confusing here, though, since it just makes the RAW case clearer that these things stack. I don't understand where you're seeing a restriction in the Venomthropes' rule. "Any Venomthrope" is clearly far more generous than "this Venomthrope", and everyone agrees that if the rule said "this Venomthrope" then it would stack.

For example, imagine that Space Marine Captains had a rule like: "friendly units within 6" of any friendly Librarian gets +1 to hit". Obviously this rule stacks with the number of Captains you have, but not with the number of Librarians in proximity -- there's nothing telling you the ability doesn't stack with the number of things that provide the buff, just that whether you get the buff only depends on if there is at least 1 Librarian. If a unit is near 1 Librarian and there are 5 Captains on the other side of the board, the unit gets +5 to hit. Same if it's near 2 or 3 Librarians -- it's still only +5 to hit. But if there are only 4 Captains then it just gets +4 to hit.

But that's the sort of rule that Venomthropes and Crypteks have. These units provide a buff to other units conditionally, and of course this buff can stack with multiple sources. Multiple Venomthropes give units near at least one Venomthrope a defensive buff for each Venomthrope in your whole army.

Now, obviously GW was trying to make this rule more restrictive than "units within 6" of this model" get some benefit, but they screwed up and actually wrote something which is a lot more generous.

I strongly disagree. The rules are clear. If you are within range of ANY of 'X' then, by RAW you are only getting that benefit once, no matter how many of X you're within range of. When they want it to function othewise (stackable), they say things like: 'friendly units within 6" of a Librarian' (with 'a' instead 'any').

 yakface wrote:

I strongly disagree. The rules are clear. If you are within range of ANY of 'X' then, by RAW you are only getting that benefit once, no matter how many of X you're within range of. When they want it to function othewise (stackable), they say things like: 'friendly units within 6" of a Librarian' (with 'a' instead 'any').

Why? I mean, like I said I agree with you that they meant for this "within X" of any <unit>" construction to be more restrictive, but how are you parsing it such that it actually is more restrictive? I can't figure out how you're reading it. I have multiple units that each say they give my units a benefit if a certain condition is met. That condition is met. Why do I only get the benefit from one of them? My Venomthrope on the other side of the board has an ability. It says to look for units that are within some distance of any friendly Venomthrope. I have a unit which is close to another Venomthrope. Therefore my distant Venomthrope buffs that unit. Where am I going wrong here?

Again, surely if Captains had a rule that just said "friendly units get +1 to hit", then that would stack, right? Everything in your army would get +1 to hit per Captain. Do you agree that if they said "friendly units within 6" of this model get +1 to hit" then that would stack if you had multiple Captains within 6"? So then why doesn't the obviously more permissive construction where you don't have to be within 6" of this model but just within 6" of any model with a particular name stack?

Edit: Actually, I disagree with you twice. I don't see any distinction between the "a <unit>" and "any <unit>" constructions. I would at the very least treat them all the same and it would strike me as incredibly fishy for someone to argue that their "a" rule stacks while my "any" rule doesn't.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Why? I mean, like I said I agree with you that they meant for this "within X" of any <unit>" construction to be more restrictive, but how are you parsing it such that it actually is more restrictive? I can't figure out how you're reading it. I have multiple units that each say they give my units a benefit if a certain condition is met. That condition is met. Why do I only get the benefit from one of them? My Venomthrope on the other side of the board has an ability. It says to look for units that are within some distance of any friendly Venomthrope. I have a unit which is close to another Venomthrope. Therefore my distant Venomthrope buffs that unit. Where am I going wrong here?

Because the benefit is specified that if you are within range of ANY of that particular unit then you get the bonus listed. Another way to write it would be: 'if a friendly unit is within range of one or more models with this ability, then'. That's exactly the same thing as saying 'any' (just a lot more concise).

Again, surely if Captains had a rule that just said "friendly units get +1 to hit", then that would stack, right? Everything in your army would get +1 to hit per Captain. Do you agree that if they said "friendly units within 6" of this model get +1 to hit" then that would stack if you had multiple Captains within 6"? So then why doesn't the obviously more permissive construction where you don't have to be within 6" of this model but just within 6" of any model with a particular name stack?

Yes, if that's how the imaginary rule was written, you would likely be right. However, that's not how most rules are written. They always have a qualifier that explains how units get the benefit. In this case, the ability asks you to check if your targeted Tyranid unit is within range of 'any' Venomthropes, and if it is, then you get the listed benefit.

Edit: Actually, I disagree with you twice. I don't see any distinction between the "a <unit>" and "any <unit>" constructions. I would at the very least treat them all the same and it would strike me as incredibly fishy for someone to argue that their "a" rule stacks while my "any" rule doesn't.

If you don't see any distinction between 'a' and 'any' then I don't know what to tell you. They are different words that have different meanings. But good luck trying to find people to play with that are okay with a single unit of 3 Venomthropes giving out -3 'to hit ' modifiers to friendly Tyranid units within 6" of all 3 of them, because that's fundamentally what you're arguing for if you look at the text of the rule.

I'm pretty confused because I agree with basically all of that except for this mysterious a/any difference that you didn't explain. But you're still not really telling me how you're reading this.

I have a Venomthrope. It has an ability that has a condition like (to quote you) 'if a friendly unit is within range of one or more models with this ability, then' subtract 1 from hit rolls targeting this unit. If a friendly unit is next to this Venomthrope, then obviously that condition is satisfied. So I get the bonus listed. I'm sure you agree with all of this. Although note that the ability isn't checking for models with the ability but for models with a particular name.

But I also have a second Venomthrope. It is far away from the first two units. It has the same ability. Is the condition for that ability satisfied? Again, yes. The friendly unit is near "one or more models named 'Venomthrope' ". So the condition is satisfied. Therefore the second Venomthrope's ability also applies and the unit gets another -1 to hit for attacks targeting it.

I'm pretty sure you haven't understood what I'm trying to say since you end by talking about needing to have all of the Venomthropes be within 6" of the unit receiving the buff, when what I'm saying is that their rule allows a Venomthrope to buff a far-away unit as long as it is near another friendly Venomthrope. Also, come on, you're better than pretending that I'm trying to get people to play by a rules interpretation that I've explicitly said I think is unintended. I think I've been very clear that I'm saying just that this is RAW.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I'm pretty confused because I agree with basically all of that except for this mysterious a/any difference that you didn't explain. But you're still not really telling me how you're reading this.

I have a Venomthrope. It has an ability that has a condition like (to quote you) 'if a friendly unit is within range of one or more models with this ability, then' subtract 1 from hit rolls targeting this unit. If a friendly unit is next to this Venomthrope, then obviously that condition is satisfied. So I get the bonus listed. I'm sure you agree with all of this. Although note that the ability isn't checking for models with the ability but for models with a particular name.

But I also have a second Venomthrope. It is far away from the first two units. It has the same ability. Is the condition for that ability satisfied? Again, yes. The friendly unit is near "one or more models named 'Venomthrope' ". So the condition is satisfied. Therefore the second Venomthrope's ability also applies and the unit gets another -1 to hit for attacks targeting it.

I'm pretty sure you haven't understood what I'm trying to say since you end by talking about needing to have all of the Venomthropes be within 6" of the unit receiving the buff, when what I'm saying is that their rule allows a Venomthrope to buff a far-away unit as long as it is near another friendly Venomthrope. Also, come on, you're better than pretending that I'm trying to get people to play by a rules interpretation that I've explicitly said I think is unintended. I think I've been very clear that I'm saying just that this is RAW.

I suppose trying to prove a difference between 'a' and 'any' is a fruitless task simply because the ability rules aren't written that way. The standard (stackable) ones simply say stuff like: 'X units within range get Y'.

But I do totally disagree with your assessment that Venomthrope units across the board would somehow still provide a their bonus to a friendly unit across the table that was within 6" of another Venomthrope unit, and that is because how it is written. Although technically you're right when I thought about it 'a' is the same as 'any' technically speaking, however 'any', I believe sends a much more clear message than 'a'.

For example, if there is a contest which said: 'if you are within 20 miles of any firehouses, then you get $100', then no matter how many firehouses you were within 20 miles of, you'd still just get $100. yest, its true that if the contest instead said: 'if you are within 20 miles of a firehouse, you get $100' you'd still only technically get $100, no matter how many firehouses are within 20 miles.

Which of course is very different than if each firehouse had a contest which said: people within 20 miles get $100. Then you'd expect each firehouse would have to pay $100 separately.

 yakface wrote:

I suppose trying to prove a difference between 'a' and 'any' is a fruitless task simply because the ability rules aren't written that way. The standard (stackable) ones simply say stuff like: 'X units within range get Y'.

But I do totally disagree with your assessment that Venomthrope units across the board would somehow still provide a their bonus to a friendly unit across the table that was within 6" of another Venomthrope unit, and that is because how it is written. Although technically you're right when I thought about it 'a' is the same as 'any' technically speaking, however 'any', I believe sends a much more clear message than 'a'.

For example, if there is a contest which said: 'if you are within 20 miles of any firehouses, then you get $100', then no matter how many firehouses you were within 20 miles of, you'd still just get $100. yest, its true that if the contest instead said: 'if you are within 20 miles of a firehouse, you get $100' you'd still only technically get $100, no matter how many firehouses are within 20 miles.

Which of course is very different than if each firehouse had a contest which said: people within 20 miles get $100. Then you'd expect each firehouse would have to pay $100 separately.

So again I basically agree with all of this. If there is a single contest which says that if you are within 20 miles of any firehouses, then you get $100, then you only get $100 no matter how many firehouses you're within 20 miles of. The use of "any" means that the contest doesn't care how many you're close to, as long as it's at least one.

But now what if there are two contests? What if both my school and my local fire department are independently running contests with exactly that rule -- "if you are within 20 miles of any firehouses, then you get $100"? Well, then surely I can collect from my school and from the local fire department, right? These are different contests, they just happen to award their prizes on the same basis. The local fire department isn't going to check with the school to see if I also received a prize from its independently-run contest, might not even be aware of it, and regardless there's no suggestion anywhere that I can't get paid by both.

I think where you're going wrong is that you're taking me as arguing that the use of "any" means that a single Venomthrope is handing out multiple buffs. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that each Venomthrope hands out one buff. Because I thought there might be confusion on this point, I used an artificial example in my second post in this thread where the condition attached to the buffing ability was not looking for the same unit that has the buffing ability (the thing about Captains having an ability that hands out a buff if a unit is near any friendly Librarian). My focus is on the number of units that have the ability, not on the number of units which would each independently satisfy the triggering condition.

But, again, if you disagree I'd appreciate if you could say where I go wrong in this process:
I have a Venomthrope next to an infantry unit. I look at that Venomthrope -- it has an ability. That ability has a condition attached to it. We could talk about exactly what this condition is but I think we basically agree. You characterized it as: "if a friendly unit is within range of one or more models with this ability, then"... So obviously the condition is satisfied -- there is a friendly unit within range of the Venomthrope whose ability we're currently looking at. Therefore the ability takes effect (and the Venomthrope debuffs things shooting at that unit). I think you agree that that's how this works.

But now suppose I have a second Venomthrope, way over on the other side of the board, far from the infantry unit we're talking about and far from the first Venomthrope. It also has an ability. This ability also has a condition attached to it. I look at this condition to see if it is satisfied: "if a friendly unit is within range of one or more models with this ability, then..." Of course, this condition is also satisfied. It's the same condition! The infantry unit is still near the first friendly Venomthrope, which is certainly "any friendly Venomthrope". It's true that it's not near the current Venomthrope whose ability we're looking at, but the condition doesn't care about that -- abilities that care about that use "this model" or similar. Therefore the ability takes effect (and the Venomthrope debuffs things shooting at that unit). I don't really understand where you think this doesn't work.

I don't think a unit that chooses to Fall Back from a unit of 10 Wyches and a Succubus has to win 11 roll-offs due to No Escape.

 Oaka wrote:
I don't think a unit that chooses to Fall Back from a unit of 10 Wyches and a Succubus has to win 11 roll-offs due to No Escape.

To be clear, I think the RAW is much worse than this. If you have another two units of Wyches elsewhere on the board then it goes up to 33 roll-offs.

Once more, I absolutely agree that what GW thought they were doing by using "any" in this way was limiting the total number of times the rule could take effect. That's obviously the intent, because otherwise you get ridiculous results like this. But that's just (it seems to me clearly) not what they actually wrote. "No Escape" isn't some rule in the BRB. It's an ability that each Wych has. There are multiple instances of it that all apply, just as if a unit had an ability that read "add 1 to all hit rolls made by friendly units". The use of "any" in the condition for triggering the ability actually ends up producing something that applies much more broadly than the use of "this model" would have.

BomBomHotdog wrote:
It states clearly in the BRB that modifiers and auras stack unless there's a restriction that says otherwise. In the case of the Venomthropes the ability specifically calls out the unit needs to be in range of at 1 or more units of Venomthropes to get the bonus. In this case it does NOT stack.

For the Cryptech I would have to double check but if it says simply units within x" get a +1 to their RP rolls then it CAN stack.

The only thing I don't know off hand is if Match Play rules place extra restrictions to keep auras from stacking

Where in the BRB does it state that same abilities stack?