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 d-usa wrote:
Roberts Grandmother was a Targarian. All the houses are intermixed.

True. Game of thones houses are some thousands of years old. At some point you gonna marry everyone if your one of the oldest.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
I enjoyed the episode - but suspension of disbelief only really lasted to the titles. This was very thin gruel.

1. Jon's fascination with Ygrit evolved, added tension and sparks to their relationship. With Dany - nothing. This was the real emptiness at the heart of the episode for me. Considering it's the climax of so much plotting... no resonance, no magic, no tension.

2. Bran has incredible powers - but all he's ever really done is work out who Jon's parents are. How bloody useful for all that hassle and all those dead companions. The encounters with Samwell was laughable.

3. What did Samwell learn in his time away? He got reminded where dragonglass comes from, and his girlfriend found a scroll. Is that really what you'd expect from a life-changing quest?

4. Tyrion has sorted out many deals that didn't work out because the other party wasn't trustworthy. He did it again. Shock horror. Plus, as mentioned before, his plan to kidnap the wight lost us a dragon. When was the last time we saw Tyrion demonstrating his intelligence. Or even his wit?

5. As for Littlefinger, the evil Machiavelli. What did he do this season, except stand in the background looking significant? It was ok, his death, but hardly a shock or a thrill.

6. Yep, theon being Theon. More of the same.

1. I felt tension from the moment he refused to bend the knee. Granted more from Dany who was grappling with her feelings which became interesting when Jorah showed up. I think they built it nicely for her. Jon has always been a bit....thick. "He knows nothing". She literally had to ride a dragon to save him and stay at the wall for him to show back up for him to realize she had feelings. Ygritte wasn't much different in how she got his attention but remember Jon was also a virgin then

2. I like Bran. I think that most people of the north don't know what to do with him. I think he'll be a weapon for those with the wit to use him which will be Jon and Dany. They don't fear the weird and are more accepting of it than Sansa is. Hell look how easily in stride Sam took his weirdness and used him to determine new information. You can't expect a teenage kid to suddenly understand and guide powers he's had a few months like a master. And you can't expect people to listen to him. Though the maester at least sent ravens for him.

3. Samwell Tarly learned the difference between being a watcher and a doer honestly. He found additional information but realized that he wasn't going to affect the war where he was meaningfully and Sam isn't a coward anymore. He WANTS to help. I thought he developed nicely. For god sakes he's proven he can cure greyscale.

4. Bringing one back wasn't his idea. It was Jorah's. So Jorah got a dragon killed. Or Jon since she probably would have written it off if it was just Jorah. But the idea to a truce is solid. His first plan for the war was solid but didn't account for the ironborn. Which no one expected. He's also basically fighting with one hand because he's trying to keep his queen from becoming a mass murderer and because he believes she can break the cycle that's plagued the 7 kingdoms since her ancestor showed up. And to be fair he's managed to keep her mostly from making that mistake.

5. Littlefinger I agree but we saw him trying to extend his influence over Sansa throughout the season. This season was actually more about seeing him fail and Sansa's growth than it was Sansa. I liked it because he literally thought the game hadn't changed. He should have remembered Stark honor before trying to pit sister against sister. It showed, in small scale, the changes in the world. And then he died. Think of him as a predictor of Cersai.

6. Theon grew too. And I'll second that the dude was brawling and murdering before the spectre of capture and torture reared it's head. And Jon forgiving him freed a lot of his baggage.

Overall I think the season was excellent. Speed travel not withstanding but I don't care about it. The realism of travel wore thin 5 seasons ago. Outside of that issue I felt the season moved well, things happened, there was character building and lots of things said and showed in smaller bursts with deeper meaning. But maybe I'm a minority.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yakface makes a good point too. I could see sansa turning to bran to see if he could tell anything once she had that last convo with Littlefinger.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
I enjoyed the episode - but suspension of disbelief only really lasted to the titles. This was very thin gruel.

1. Jon's fascination with Ygrit evolved, added tension and sparks to their relationship. With Dany - nothing. This was the real emptiness at the heart of the episode for me. Considering it's the climax of so much plotting... no resonance, no magic, no tension.

2. Bran has incredible powers - but all he's ever really done is work out who Jon's parents are. How bloody useful for all that hassle and all those dead companions. The encounters with Samwell was laughable.

3. What did Samwell learn in his time away? He got reminded where dragonglass comes from, and his girlfriend found a scroll. Is that really what you'd expect from a life-changing quest?

4. Tyrion has sorted out many deals that didn't work out because the other party wasn't trustworthy. He did it again. Shock horror. Plus, as mentioned before, his plan to kidnap the wight lost us a dragon. When was the last time we saw Tyrion demonstrating his intelligence. Or even his wit?

5. As for Littlefinger, the evil Machiavelli. What did he do this season, except stand in the background looking significant? It was ok, his death, but hardly a shock or a thrill.

6. Yep, theon being Theon. More of the same.

1. I felt tension from the moment he refused to bend the knee. Granted more from Dany who was grappling with her feelings which became interesting when Jorah showed up. I think they built it nicely for her. Jon has always been a bit....thick. "He knows nothing". She literally had to ride a dragon to save him and stay at the wall for him to show back up for him to realize she had feelings. Ygritte wasn't much different in how she got his attention but remember Jon was also a virgin then

2. I like Bran. I think that most people of the north don't know what to do with him. I think he'll be a weapon for those with the wit to use him which will be Jon and Dany. They don't fear the weird and are more accepting of it than Sansa is. Hell look how easily in stride Sam took his weirdness and used him to determine new information. You can't expect a teenage kid to suddenly understand and guide powers he's had a few months like a master. And you can't expect people to listen to him. Though the maester at least sent ravens for him.

3. Samwell Tarly learned the difference between being a watcher and a doer honestly. He found additional information but realized that he wasn't going to affect the war where he was meaningfully and Sam isn't a coward anymore. He WANTS to help. I thought he developed nicely. For god sakes he's proven he can cure greyscale.

4. Bringing one back wasn't his idea. It was Jorah's. So Jorah got a dragon killed. Or Jon since she probably would have written it off if it was just Jorah. But the idea to a truce is solid. His first plan for the war was solid but didn't account for the ironborn. Which no one expected. He's also basically fighting with one hand because he's trying to keep his queen from becoming a mass murderer and because he believes she can break the cycle that's plagued the 7 kingdoms since her ancestor showed up. And to be fair he's managed to keep her mostly from making that mistake.

5. Littlefinger I agree but we saw him trying to extend his influence over Sansa throughout the season. This season was actually more about seeing him fail and Sansa's growth than it was Sansa. I liked it because he literally thought the game hadn't changed. He should have remembered Stark honor before trying to pit sister against sister. It showed, in small scale, the changes in the world. And then he died. Think of him as a predictor of Cersai.

6. Theon grew too. And I'll second that the dude was brawling and murdering before the spectre of capture and torture reared it's head. And Jon forgiving him freed a lot of his baggage.

Overall I think the season was excellent. Speed travel not withstanding but I don't care about it. The realism of travel wore thin 5 seasons ago. Outside of that issue I felt the season moved well, things happened, there was character building and lots of things said and showed in smaller bursts with deeper meaning. But maybe I'm a minority.

I only got energy to answer one or two but one.
Dany and jon.

They do I admit are a somewhat fan forced couple. Yes there was tension from the cave scene onwards and small sparks from the cut off died for his honour bit.

Of all the characters they do have a shared value.
They both only ones same background. I think that will improve with time.

They ain't entirely forced. Just not entirely natural.
Give it 10 episodes and more time to evolve. It would of been better in that sloe chemistry and trust building.

In comparison.
Look at Sansa. She is the game.
Jon, dany they are not. I sense some friction coming there though when he stark women meet dany.

Also friction how she is now game player.
Jon has straight up need stark honour.
...

Bran.
Well I fell potential for growth there. In right hands he a war winning weapon. More than dragons. He can guide your armies exactly where you need to be. At right time. Perfectly.

Also waging and ravens. He a spy network. He can track half the damned north movements.

Only if smart ernough to use such a tool at disposal.

....

Sam no coward. He stood against two rapists alone, took beating and stood back up for round two.

He got more guts than you give him credit.
He found his strengthnin the knights watch. He took his family sword, he is a Tarly. He is worthy of his name.

...

Little finger. Well his love may have worked against him. He never saw it coming from Sansa.
His pupil. His mini cat.. His project.

He got blind sided. He predicted arya. And maybe saw risk in bran. Knew jon.

But Sansa.... Nope. Out off thr blue.

...

Lasty. Yeah. The admin lord has a strong point.
Sansa is a smart game player now. She would of seen the value in bran and his powers.

He has ability to keep house stark one step ahead of enemies.
She ain't gonna ignore that.

And bonus points.

Jamie's holding his honour above his family seems a big change. Slow change but somthing just broke his code too far now.

He turned away for cesai it seems and is upholding his personal honour over family honour. Big thing for lanisters.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Bran has incredible powers - but all he's ever really done is work out who Jon's parents are. How bloody useful for all that hassle and all those dead companions. The encounters with Samwell was laughable.

Bran's involvement in the plot isn't over yet. Bran will likely play a major part in stopping the Night King in the next season. Your statement is a lot like saying that all Ob-Wan and Yoda's training of Luke was a waste because all Luke did was get his hand cut off and fall down a hole.

Also, 'work out who Jon's parents are' is wrong and misses the point. He learned the true heir to the Targaryen throne, learned the original cause of Robert's Rebellion was based on a lie. Both of these are likely to play a major part in establishing the Azor Ahai prophecy.

What did Samwell learn in his time away? He got reminded where dragonglass comes from, and his girlfriend found a scroll. Is that really what you'd expect from a life-changing quest?

It wasn't a life changing quest. It was what he thought he wanted for his life, only to begin that journey and realise that what he'd experienced in life meant the dreams for his youth of being safely surrounded by books and learning weren't what he wanted any more. He'd seen the real dangers in the world, and now feels that he must play his part. Sam's time in the Citadel was character development through internal development, not by overcoming an external antagonist.

Also he saved Jorah's life while at the citadel.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I think that's the problem with established cast in a tv show - you have to give them something to do or kill them off - so you end up inventing plots for them - I recall True Blood being awful for this and watching Originals at the moment and they keep having to find a plot for Cami.....

The irony here is that when the show put Gendry on ice for a few seasons people joked about it. It seems the audience wants it both ways, and will bitch about whichever side they don't get.

Bran is a simply awful creation - yeah I know everything - except when I don't , nah not going to tell you anything useful - URGGGHH -- He is a really terrible plot device which they seldom bother to utilise except for exposition and fan service.

Most of the problem here is that many people haven't paid attention to how Bran's power is actually shown on the screen. Lots of people just assume omniscience and start making up complaints. But if you actually watch, you see Bran has the ability to go to any point in time, but needs to actually go there to see what happened. Lacking the time to go to every single point in history ever, Bran obviously needs a reason to go to a particular point and see what happened. So knowing nothing about Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna other than the abduction he was told about as a kid, he never knew to go see what really happened. When Sam told him about the annulment, he went to see what really happened.

This also explains other things like his mistake with his sister, he was curious to see his sister's wedding, but not being a creep he didn't wait around to see what Ramsey did afterwards.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Maybe he should actually look for important things and if / when he finds them - tell someone!

The location of the Undead, what they are doing, if they are about to ambush and kill a dragon for instance

Bran's been shown on multiple occasion's using his warging abilities to control a flock of crows, scouting the location of the army of the dead.

Claiming Bran should have known they were planning to ambush a dragon is a strange thing you just made up. There's no indication at all that Bran has any kind power that would have allowed him to learn what the Night King was planning, if indeed it was the plan at all.

is a bit more important at this point than what Sansa was wearing on a given night or Jon's parents - for all the fan squealing.

The true heir of the Targaryen throne is actually pretty important, and it's role in Azor Ahai and stopping the Night King is also a big deal.


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 Mr Morden wrote:
Bran sees stuff - apparently - but when exactly has he told anyone anything of any actual use? Nearest he came was when he quoted Little Fingers words to Ned but even if he hadn't it would have made zero difference.

Note that during Sansa's long series of doubts about her sister Bran was absent, but when Sansa allies with her sister and condemns Littlefinger, Bran is there behind, looking very smug about everything. Sure he spoke up and quoted exactly what was said, but it's absurd to conclude that's the only part he played. It's pretty clearly shown that he was behind Sansa learning about the depth of Littlefinger's plotting. I mean, he was literally behind her when she accused Littlefinger.

The irony here is that when the show put Gendry on ice for a few seasons people joked about it. It seems the audience wants it both ways, and will bitch about whichever side they don't get.

Personally zero interest in him then or now.j I was talking about others - specfically LittleFinger after her and Sansa saved Jon Snow and his army after Snow had lost (Again) he had nothing meaningful to, his ploting has become more and more bizare and nebulous - simply to give him soemthing to do - end of season - they get rid of him - and that was actually well done.

Sam was given the whole cure Jorah as something to do, Gendry becomes the Flash etc

Most of the problem here is that many people haven't paid attention to how Bran's power is actually shown on the screen. Lots of people just assume omniscience and start making up complaints. But if you actually watch, you see Bran has the ability to go to any point in time, but needs to actually go there to see what happened. Lacking the time to go to every single point in history ever, Bran obviously needs a reason to go to a particular point and see what happened. So knowing nothing about Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna other than the abduction he was told about as a kid, he never knew to go see what really happened. When Sam told him about the annulment, he went to see what really happened.This also explains other things like his mistake with his sister, he was curious to see his sister's wedding, but not being a creep he didn't wait around to see what Ramsey did afterwards.

1 We don't know whathe saw or how long he hung about - he is portrayed as increasingly inhuman.

2. He has had Months to do find out stuff and tell people on screen - none of which has been shown or even implied to have happened, no one has referenced him in any way being a useful source of information so its fair to conclude he is now little more than a voyer of unfolding events in universe and in the show serves as nothng more than a exposition mouth piece and fo fan service snap shots of the past.

Bran's been shown on multiple occasion's using his warging abilities to control a flock of crows, scouting the location of the army of the dead. Claiming Bran should have known they were planning to ambush a dragon is a strange thing you just made up. There's no indication at all that Bran has any kind power that would have allowed him to learn what the Night King was planning, if indeed it was the plan at all.

And yet no one up North knows where they are, which part of the wall they are heading to, how far they are from the Wall etc - yep Bran does but apparently has told no-one - either because he is unwilling or simply not interested. Again there is absoluitely no reference to him passing on his godly insights. They had to rely on vague visions from the Lord of Light and wonder about in the snow.

The true heir of the Targaryen throne is actually pretty important, and it's role in Azor Ahai and stopping the Night King is also a big deal.

Personally I say Feth the Azor Ahai prophecy and that crap - I have been hoping in vain that GRM and the writers were trying to go with the whole - don;t believe in Propercy - make your own way - hence the whole story with a certain Red Priestess. But thats not going to happen - Its all about Jon Fething Snow.

Note that during Sansa's long series of doubts about her sister Bran was absent, but when Sansa allies with her sister and condemns Littlefinger, Bran is there behind, looking very smug about everything. Sure he spoke up and quoted exactly what was said, but it's absurd to conclude that's the only part he played. It's pretty clearly shown that he was behind Sansa learning about the depth of Littlefinger's plotting. I mean, he was literally behind her when she accused Littlefinger.

Bran - looking smug - like every moment he is on screen - again inhuman mind watching all the little humans scurry about - its all very Dr Manhatten at the moment

Sansa needed him there as the male heir to Winterfel, she was just lucky he was not drooling. She may have asked him to go back and look at her fathers time leading up to his death - but I doubt Bran had the interest or will to do it on his own.

 sebster wrote:


It wasn't a life changing quest. It was what he thought he wanted for his life, only to begin that journey and realise that what he'd experienced in life meant the dreams for his youth of being safely surrounded by books and learning weren't what he wanted any more. He'd seen the real dangers in the world, and now feels that he must play his part. Sam's time in the Citadel was character development through internal development, not by overcoming an external antagonist.

Also he saved Jorah's life while at the citadel.

Those are fair observations; we are all calibrated differently in terms of whether we believe character development is full and convincing. I love Samwell as a character; he's a bright guy and I didn't see an intellectual journey there. The bravery of trying to cure Jorah was perhaps the one instance that hinted at this; I could have done with more.

Overall, GOT has always shown about the consequences of our actions, culminating in dramatic events like the red weding, or Jon's murder. Usually the foundations for events are laid well in advance, for instance Cat's hurried deal with Waldor Frey worked itself out over two series. There are still foundations in the new series; they're simply not as deep.

I enjoyed the episode as it rolled; but I think, objectively, it's fair to observe the plotting this time around is not as deep as in earlier seasons.

 yakface wrote:

I think we can safely assume that Bran told his sisters quite a bit about Littlefinger offscreen, because Sansa knew some stuff she shouldn't have otherwise (that Littlefinger started the feud between the Lannisters and Starks and that the blade used in Bran's assassination attempt was really Littlefingers), and what Bran did say to Littlefinger in that 'hearing' didn't register any kind of surprise on Ayra or Sansa's faces.

He had definitely filled them in on whatever bits they didn't know.

This is very much the case:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/08/29/game-of-thrones-isaac-hempstead-wright-on-deleted-scene-between-bran-and-sansa

Personally I say feth the Targaryens.

Aerys wasn't completely nuts, but he was stupid. His poor decisions and lack of tact killed the Seven Kingdoms.
Rhaegar allowed his father to act like an idiot and did nothing to stop it. He made the situation worse (along with Lyanna) by not doing things the proper, acceptable way.
Viserys was an arse, but that's to be understood. He's the product of childhood abuse, neglect, and an over inflated ego.
Daenerys talks about making the world a better place, but has she ever actually done that? What does than even mean? It sounds like an inane political slogan.
Jon is so far deep into Lawful Stupid that he could go on a crime spree for the next decade before seeing an alignment shift. I liked the character in the books and up to season 5, but since then he's gone downhill fast. Why do we care if he's Rhaegar's son? Rhaegar got killed by Robert FFS. Rhaegar didn't have enough sense TO NOT run off with a betrothed girl. What makes Rhaegar so damn special? All we ever get are second hand accounts of how amazing he was...

And the Targaryens as a whole are nothing special. They weren't renowned in Valyria. They're just the only house that happened to leave before the doom because of spooky visions.

The most notable thing any of them has done IMO is honor their oath to the Night's Watch. Wrecking people on your dragons isn't anything special. If find it hard to believe GRR Martin is actually intending to go the route of blood > effort.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Personally zero interest in him then or now.

Sure, I was just pointing out the audience seem to simultaneously demand that no character be left off screen for any length of time, and demand that the characters shouldn't be given minor sub-plots just to keep them on screen.

I was talking about others - specfically LittleFinger after her and Sansa saved Jon Snow and his army after Snow had lost (Again) he had nothing meaningful to, his ploting has become more and more bizare and nebulous - simply to give him soemthing to do - end of season - they get rid of him - and that was actually well done.

That's true, Littlefinger just hanging around Winterfell all that time was more than a little contrived. His multi-decade plan was to usurp control of the Vale and become its defacto ruler, and then... never go there and instead just hang around Winterfell all the time doing some kind of nefarious seeming nothing.

1 We don't know whathe saw or how long he hung about - he is portrayed as increasingly inhuman.

One option is to think Bran watched the ceremony, by the tree remember where visions are easiest, and was unaware of what Sansa suffered after that. The other option is that Bran hung around to watch his sister have sex, saw she was forced and brutalised, and then didn't think anything of that when casually mentioning the events to her sister.

The former is the more obvious, and works in describing Bran's ability and how it works afterwards, the second is weird and makes no sense with everything we saw after.

2. He has had Months to do find out stuff and tell people on screen - none of which has been shown or even implied to have happened, no one has referenced him in any way being a useful source of information so its fair to conclude he is now little more than a voyer of unfolding events in universe and in the show serves as nothng more than a exposition mouth piece and fo fan service snap shots of the past.

We actually don't know how much time he can spend in a day looking in to the past. It's really weird that you're assuming he must have the ability all day, every day, and then complain that he isn't doing it all day, every day.

And yet no one up North knows where they are, which part of the wall they are heading to, how far they are from the Wall etc - yep Bran does but apparently has told no-one - either because he is unwilling or simply not interested. Again there is absoluitely no reference to him passing on his godly insights. They had to rely on vague visions from the Lord of Light and wonder about in the snow.

They went North of Eastwatch, where the army was. The exact location of the army was unknown, but they knew its general location pretty well. While Bran isn't shown giving that information, it's weird to conclude it isn't happening and then complain that he should be doing it.

Personally I say Feth the Azor Ahai prophecy and that crap - I have been hoping in vain that GRM and the writers were trying to go with the whole - don;t believe in Propercy - make your own way - hence the whole story with a certain Red Priestess. But thats not going to happen - Its all about Jon Fething Snow.

Prophecy has been throughout the show and is often proven true, so hoping the shows major prophecy just wouldn't happen is hoping against what was already on the screen. But it is just as mistaken to think if there is to be prophecy, it must default to a boring chosen one narrative that sees Jon win the show through power of prophecy. GoT has treated prophecy throughout in very interesting ways. So it's most likely that the prophecy will be realised, but there'll be a bunch of twists in how it plays out.


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 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Those are fair observations; we are all calibrated differently in terms of whether we believe character development is full and convincing. I love Samwell as a character; he's a bright guy and I didn't see an intellectual journey there. The bravery of trying to cure Jorah was perhaps the one instance that hinted at this; I could have done with more.

Overall, GOT has always shown about the consequences of our actions, culminating in dramatic events like the red weding, or Jon's murder. Usually the foundations for events are laid well in advance, for instance Cat's hurried deal with Waldor Frey worked itself out over two series. There are still foundations in the new series; they're simply not as deep.

Fair point about everyone being calibrated differently. That story worked for me, but then a bunch of other minor stories in the show haven't worked for me at all, but lots of other people really liked. For instance I thought the double and triple crossing to take Winterfell felt like a parody of GoT, but lots of people loved that.

I agree that GoT has on some level been about consequences, and has worked because it had the appearance of a story where risk was real for everyone. However, I think this was always a bit of a con, Martin had his key characters who weren't going to meet sudden deaths. We were just tricked because the set of characters we were originally presented with weren't those core characters (or at least not all of them were). It isn't just Jon. Jaime should be dead. Tyrion is always let off. Brienne's had a whole lot of 'but then they decide not to kill her moments'.

I enjoyed the episode as it rolled; but I think, objectively, it's fair to observe the plotting this time around is not as deep as in earlier seasons.

The plotting isn't as intricate, and there's a lot more handwaving to get things moving along. I wish things were a little tighter, but at the same time I'm happy they're moving at a quicker pace. There's a lot to be said for depth, but there's also a lot to be said for pace.

s7 is far from the strongest series, but at this point in the show I'm much happier they're erring on the side of pace than detail.

It's a LOOOOOOONG wait until next season... :-(

 MDSW wrote:
It's a LOOOOOOONG wait until next season... :-(

Pity those still waiting for the books - 2 years is nothing.

Glad I stopped

People were complaining that the show is no longer like the books, so the long wait should fix that.

A decent season overall but its simply gone too formulaic and a bit "goody good" for me. I no longer feel any fear from Cersie, the political intrigue from earlier seasons / backstabbing, hell even the undead dont feel much at the moment.
I have a bad feeling the last season is going to be feel good central after a few big (albeit hopefully enjoyable) battles.

They really need to throw in some curveballs.

I think this season started off lame, and continued to get lamer as it went on (but still nice to look at). The final episode being a happy surprise as it had some nice plot points.

Jon is just frustrating and is quite happy to betray his own people because Dany is so sexy.

Tyrion has become tedious, like he was in the last few books.

I quite like what they did with Sam, but why is Gilly not pregnant!

No one would follow Theon... no one... ever.

I hope Jon stays dead in the books..... and little Griff takes his place (or something).

 StygianBeach wrote:
I think this season started off lame, and continued to get lamer as it went on (but still nice to look at). The final episode being a happy surprise as it had some nice plot points.

Jon is just frustrating and is quite happy to betray his own people because Dany is so sexy.

Tyrion has become tedious, like he was in the last few books.

I quite like what they did with Sam, but why is Gilly not pregnant!

No one would follow Theon... no one... ever.

I hope Jon stays dead in the books..... and little Griff takes his place (or something).

Choosing sex, power or such over long term stratigic thinking is a got standard for any lord or king at this point lol.

Daenerys is the new Cersei: she became ruthless by killing the Tarlys, she's obsessed with her children and recently lost one (I bet all dragons will die by the end of the story), she's proclaimed herself queen while she doesn't have the right to be the queen, she has sex with a close relative. Both were portayed naked in more than an episode. And she's also blonde. She only need to cut her hair

I'm the only one that doesn't want Jon and/or Dany to sit in the iron throne? They're ok characters but IMHO the real stars of the show are not them. And I love Cersei but since she's the queen now it not likely that she will sit in the iron throne at the end of the show

I hope gendry will rule westeros, it's in his blood.

 Blackie wrote:
Daenerys is the new Cersei: she became ruthless by killing the Tarlys, she's obsessed with her children and recently lost one (I bet all dragons will die by the end of the story), she's proclaimed herself queen while she doesn't have the right to be the queen, she has sex with a close relative. Both were portayed naked in more than an episode. And she's also blonde. She only need to cut her hair

I'm the only one that doesn't want Jon and/or Dany to sit in the iron throne? They're ok characters but IMHO the real stars of the show are not them. And I love Cersei but since she's the queen now it not likely that she will sit in the iron throne at the end of the show

I hope gendry will rule westeros, it's in his blood.

Wow you hate Dany as much as I do Jon

Dany did what every other generous ruler in the Seven Kingdoms would do - she offered clemency to those who bend the knee - even to oathbreakers like the Tully's. They could have switched sides (again) but they choose death.

Dany is a true born daughter of a Royal Bloodline - how doe she not have the right? Gendry is a bastard - he has a vague claim but not a good one.

Dany is sleeping with close relative but thats traditional to her family and also she is unaware. Jon is likely the one to have a fit when he finds out given the stick up his ass.

trexmeyer wrote:Aerys wasn't completely nuts, but he was stupid. His poor decisions and lack of tact killed the Seven Kingdoms.

Wanting to burn King's Landing to a crisp isn't nuts?
How about killing your Warden of the North with fire in a trail by combat when he asks that your son explain his actions in "kidnapping" his daughter, throwing the Seven Kingdoms in disarray?

The man had no plan beyond solidifying his reign. He was vastly paranoid and generally incompetent - when he was kidnapped, his own Hand, Tywin, didn't even want to rescue him, saying that Rhaegar would be a far better king than his father.

Rhaegar allowed his father to act like an idiot and did nothing to stop it. He made the situation worse (along with Lyanna) by not doing things the proper, acceptable way.

Rhaegar was actually involved in the plot to depose Aerys. He fully intended to make the Seven Kingdoms a better place, and after much reading in his early life, believed he was involved in the Azor Ahai prophecy - sparking his marriage to Lyanna. In fact, rather much like Jon in that he was very single-minded about his personal belief and goals to make the Seven Kingdoms a better place, lacking duplicity and general foresight (see Battle of the Bastards) to avoid calamity.

Viserys was an arse, but that's to be understood. He's the product of childhood abuse, neglect, and an over inflated ego.

Mostly the ego part. He was obsessed with his heritage, and to all reason (aside from Jon) he was the heir to the throne. Of course, what he did was horrible, but unfortunately standard for medieval times.

Daenerys talks about making the world a better place, but has she ever actually done that? What does than even mean? It sounds like an inane political slogan.

I mean, she did:
- Free the Unsullied from a life of slavery
- Free the populations of Meereen and Yunkai from slavery (I think)
- Attempt to save as many people from the raping and reaving of the Dothraki as possible
- Refuse to burn King's Landing to a crisp
- Honour her alliances
- Protect the people of her realms by sealing Viserion and Rhaegal away (perhaps a bad move).
- At least giving people the chance to bend the knee, rather than killing them all, as Cersei or Aerys might have done.

So yeah, she does have a good reputation behind her.

Jon is so far deep into Lawful Stupid that he could go on a crime spree for the next decade before seeing an alignment shift. I liked the character in the books and up to season 5, but since then he's gone downhill fast.

Jon may be Lawful Stupid, but he's copying Ned. Do you complain that Ned was Lawful Stupid too?
Jon has looked up to Ned his whole life, so it makes absolute sense that he'd emulate him. Besides, if he's going to try and make Westeros a better place, instead of contributing to the issue of lying and backstabbing, he at least attempts to be an idealist and "practice what he preaches". That's his character, and we've seen little difference in that.

Why do we care if he's Rhaegar's son?

Because it makes Jon the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Simple as.

Rhaegar got killed by Robert FFS. Rhaegar didn't have enough sense TO NOT run off with a betrothed girl.

Because he was driven by the Azor Ahai prophecy and his position in it. Rhaegar dedicated his life to that - in many respects, it mirrors Jon.

What makes Rhaegar so damn special? All we ever get are second hand accounts of how amazing he was...

Because he was very fair and level-headed for a Targaryen. He was regarded by Tywin to be better than Aerys, and Tywin tends to be very good at leadership and such.

And the Targaryens as a whole are nothing special. They weren't renowned in Valyria. They're just the only house that happened to leave before the doom because of spooky visions.

But in Westeros they were, because they were the only House with dragons.

The most notable thing any of them has done IMO is honor their oath to the Night's Watch. Wrecking people on your dragons isn't anything special.

It is if no-one else has dragons.

If find it hard to believe GRR Martin is actually intending to go the route of blood > effort.

We'll have to wait and see.

StygianBeach wrote:Jon is just frustrating and is quite happy to betray his own people because Dany is so sexy.

Or because she's proven herself to be helpful to the greatest cause (to Jon) in destroying the Army of the Dead, so solidifying an alliance to a genuinely helpful and idealistic monarch is the logical thing to do?
Jon has been clearly defined in being nearly single-mindedly driven in defeating the White Walkers. He only took up the mantle of King in the North to rally the Northment in defeating the northern threat. He didn't want to march south, he didn't want to kill of traitors. He wants to rally the North to defend Westeros. That's why he saved the Wildlings - because them fighting the Night's Watch was counter- intuitive to that goal.

Sure, the North will be suspect of him, but he's hardly "betrayed" them. He feels confident that if Daenerys can show her good intentions to the North, they will accept her rule. Perhaps, if her and Jon do succeed, she will allow Jon to continue being the King in the North, and grant more freedoms to the North and Riverlands/Vale.

TL;DR - Daenerys being "sexy" is hardly the reason Jon bent the knee. If that were the case, that brings the whole Melisandre scene into question, when she attempts to seduce him.

Tyrion has become tedious, like he was in the last few books.

What, because he's not wisecracking and is realizing his importance in holding Daenerys in check so she doesn't blow up King's Landing and everyone in it?
He's far worse in the books.

I quite like what they did with Sam, but why is Gilly not pregnant!

Because of a whole host of biological reasons, present in the real world today? Just because they have sex doesn't necessarily guarantee pregnancy.

No one would follow Theon... no one... ever.

Except the Ironborn's philosophy is strength over honour. Theon proves his strength by defeating that captain, and lives up to the idea of "what is dead may never die". He finally pays the Iron Price - he proves his strength and therefore his right to command the seamen.
That's why he wasn't just hailed as a hero when he returned to Pyke after his wardship: because all of his armour, his titles, his worth hadn't been earned by himself, which was why the Iron Islanders distrusted him. He tried to prove his worth by taking Winterfell, and failed. He tried to fall back on his upbringing with Stark honour, and failed. After his forgiveness from Jon, he is given a shred of confidence, and goes out to save his sister, paying the Iron Price.

Thus, his Greyjoy and Stark heritage are brought into alignment.

I hope Jon stays dead in the books..... and little Griff takes his place (or something).

Doubtful indeed.

Blackie wrote:I hope gendry will rule westeros, it's in his blood.

But as Bran proves, Jon's claim is stronger. He's the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, the son of Aerys II. His claim is the strongest, followed by Daenerys.

It might be in Gendry's blood, but he is still a bastard. Besides, he has very little experience anyway - Jon at least learnt from Ned ruling Winterfell, and hasn't been too bad at it. His major issues have been that inscrutable honour that Ned had, which got him killed (however, as Jon notes, if he wants to bring about any change for the better in Westeros, he has to actually honour his oaths and do what he expects other to do, rather than lie about them as Tyrion would - breaking the wheel, as Dany would put it), and his idealism/reckless nature in combat. Jon is straightforward - he's no pragmatist. Like him or hate him, that's Jon's character, and it's stupid to suggest that GRRM didn't intend for him to be this way.

Jon may be Lawful Stupid, but he's copying Ned. Do you complain that Ned was Lawful Stupid too?

Yep he caused the whole war, got so many people killed including his own wife and children because he would not keep another secret. He even went to Cersei and told her he was going toe xpose, what the hell did he think was going to happen, what would he have done to protect his own children in the same - say Jon's heritage had been exposed, Robert would have ordered him killed immediately.

He had seen how the real world of the court worked, even said so himself that he wanted nothiing to do with it.

Because it makes Jon the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Simple as.

Given Jons total devotion to Honour - he has sworn an oath to serve Queen Daenerys so his blood no longer matters unless she dies

What makes Rhaegar so damn special? All we ever get are second hand accounts of how amazing he was

He was regarded by Tywin to be better than Aerys, and Tywin tends to be very good at leadership and such.

By that point anyone was better than the Mad King? Twyin thinking your are good for a given role may not be a good thing, given his own nature.

Tyrion is more serious because he is again a mover and shaker, when thousands of lives can depend on what you say or do, I would think you tend to laugh and joke less - and often drink more.

Has anyone in the show really enjoyed ruling apart from Joffrey and Ramsey and thats becuase they simply went for self gratifcation most of the time.

Jon "betrayed the north" because he needed to and remember he had kept (and is still) saying nothing was more important that uniting to fight the dead, so refusing to bend the knee contradicted directly that stance, as was pointed out on the trek north of the wall. I thiink he also recognises that he is not a king and to be fair has never wanted to be. Dany has the potential to be a great Queen on the other hand and he is now getting that.

Now the dead have breached the wall, there may not be much of North left.

Because he was driven by the Azor Ahai prophecy and his position in it. Rhaegar dedicated his life to that - in many respects, it mirrors Jon.

Is that in the show? I though it was more like Robb, he fell for a girl he shouldn't have?

Dany only didn't burn Kings Landing because several people begged her to do it.

She also managed to collapse the economy of an entire side of Essos because she's so self entitled and she believes that its either her way or the high way.

She is slowly turning into her father, she burnt 2 men alive because they refused to serve a queen who just waltz into the country with a couple of dragons and has spent her entire time having to be convinced to not burn everything.

Dany would not make a great queen.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Dany only didn't burn Kings Landing because several people begged her to do it.

She also managed to collapse the economy of an entire side of Essos because she's so self entitled and she believes that its either her way or the high way.

She is slowly turning into her father, she burnt 2 men alive because they refused to serve a queen who just waltz into the country with a couple of dragons and has spent her entire time having to be convinced to not burn everything.

Dany would not make a great queen.

And burning Kings Landing would have ended the war in one day and saved more lives than it killed, Tywin would have done it, Robert would have done it, Stanis would have done it - in fact ther advisors were wrong to advise against it. She didn;t do it becase the show needed to go on longer,

She burned two men who refused to turn sides (for the second time) and who were bent on serving a Queen that bew up the main cathedral of her own people plus the assembled clergy. Again any normal king of the time or the medieval time would quite likely kill them or suffer for it later . I am not sure you get the world in which she lives.

The ecomony of the region was based on extremly brutal slavery - by your argument the slave trade should still be flourishing now and those who stopped it are evil.

Of course she is entitled - thats what being royal born means.

She is fairly pragamatic, adaptable and willing to listen to advice, anyone else of royal blood fit that bill?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Dany only didn't burn Kings Landing because several people begged her to do it.

She also managed to collapse the economy of an entire side of Essos because she's so self entitled and she believes that its either her way or the high way.

She is slowly turning into her father, she burnt 2 men alive because they refused to serve a queen who just waltz into the country with a couple of dragons and has spent her entire time having to be convinced to not burn everything.

Dany would not make a great queen.

And burning Kings Landing would have ended the war in one day and saved more lives than it killed, Tywin would have done it, Robert would have done it, Stanis would have done it - in fact ther advisors were wrong to advise against it. She didn;t do it becase the show needed to go on longer,

She burned two men who refused to turn sides (for the second time) and who were bent on serving a Queen that bew up the main cathedral of her own people plus the assembled clergy. Again any normal king of the time or the medieval time would quite likely kill them or suffer for it later . I am not sure you get the world in which she lives.

The ecomony of the region was based on extremly brutal slavery - by your argument the slave trade should still be flourishing now and those who stopped it are evil.

Of course she is entitled - thats what being royal born means.

She is fairly pragamatic, adaptable and willing to listen to advice, anyone else of royal blood fit that bill?

The mad king would of landed with his dragon... and then burned cersai and all the lanisters alive with it as a negoiation.
probbly would have been alot easier admitly. all her main lords and guards with her, jamie, the main lanister general and her fleet command,

 jhe90 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Dany only didn't burn Kings Landing because several people begged her to do it.

She also managed to collapse the economy of an entire side of Essos because she's so self entitled and she believes that its either her way or the high way.

She is slowly turning into her father, she burnt 2 men alive because they refused to serve a queen who just waltz into the country with a couple of dragons and has spent her entire time having to be convinced to not burn everything.

Dany would not make a great queen.

And burning Kings Landing would have ended the war in one day and saved more lives than it killed, Tywin would have done it, Robert would have done it, Stanis would have done it - in fact ther advisors were wrong to advise against it. She didn;t do it becase the show needed to go on longer,

She burned two men who refused to turn sides (for the second time) and who were bent on serving a Queen that bew up the main cathedral of her own people plus the assembled clergy. Again any normal king of the time or the medieval time would quite likely kill them or suffer for it later . I am not sure you get the world in which she lives.

The ecomony of the region was based on extremly brutal slavery - by your argument the slave trade should still be flourishing now and those who stopped it are evil.

Of course she is entitled - thats what being royal born means.

She is fairly pragamatic, adaptable and willing to listen to advice, anyone else of royal blood fit that bill?

The mad king would of landed with his dragon... and then burned cersai and all the lanisters alive with it as a negoiation.
probbly would have been alot easier admitly. all her main lords and guards with her, jamie, the main lanister general and her fleet command,

Indeed - Dany did not need to even do that - repeat Meerem - fly arund the harbour, burn some ships, show off a bit to show everyone there is no chance against her.

Then send an ultimation, no need for a battle. But then we would not have needed two more seasons, the dead would have faced a united Seven kingdoms and it would have been all very one sided. I do prefer that world, but its not as exciting tv - probably.

As long as she is not a complete disaster as a ruler, in a few years no one would have cared if she even burnt the city.. its what conquerors do, the small folk would have got on with their lives and the nobility would either be dead or plotting to prosper in her court.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Dany only didn't burn Kings Landing because several people begged her to do it.

She also managed to collapse the economy of an entire side of Essos because she's so self entitled and she believes that its either her way or the high way.

She is slowly turning into her father, she burnt 2 men alive because they refused to serve a queen who just waltz into the country with a couple of dragons and has spent her entire time having to be convinced to not burn everything.

Dany would not make a great queen.

And burning Kings Landing would have ended the war in one day and saved more lives than it killed, Tywin would have done it, Robert would have done it, Stanis would have done it - in fact ther advisors were wrong to advise against it. She didn;t do it becase the show needed to go on longer,

She burned two men who refused to turn sides (for the second time) and who were bent on serving a Queen that bew up the main cathedral of her own people plus the assembled clergy. Again any normal king of the time or the medieval time would quite likely kill them or suffer for it later . I am not sure you get the world in which she lives.

The ecomony of the region was based on extremly brutal slavery - by your argument the slave trade should still be flourishing now and those who stopped it are evil.

Of course she is entitled - thats what being royal born means.

She is fairly pragamatic, adaptable and willing to listen to advice, anyone else of royal blood fit that bill?

The mad king would of landed with his dragon... and then burned cersai and all the lanisters alive with it as a negoiation.
probbly would have been alot easier admitly. all her main lords and guards with her, jamie, the main lanister general and her fleet command,

Indeed - Dany did not need to even do that - repeat Meerem - fly arund the harbour, burn some ships, show off a bit to show everyone there is no chance against her.

Then send an ultimation, no need for a battle. But then we would not have needed two more seasons, the dead would have faced a united Seven kingdoms and it would have been all very one sided. I do prefer that world, but its not as exciting tv - probably.

As long as she is not a complete disaster as a ruler, in a few years no one would have cared if she even burnt the city..

I'm going to quote Book Varys in that he doesn't like Dany because she is do entitled, she thinks that ruling is a right. That's why he sides with book Aegon, because he knows that ruling is not a right and is given by the common folk.

I'm going to quote Book Varys in that he doesn't like Dany because she is do entitled, she thinks that ruling is a right. That's why he sides with book Aegon, because he knows that ruling is not a right and is given by the common folk.

Book Varys is not Show Varys nor is Book Dany Show Dany.

Name one member of a noble house that is not entitled? Thats the whole point of being brought up to rule - be that a small castle by the sea or the Seven Kingdoms.

Are there actually any democratic nations in Westros or Essos? Nope not that I am aware of - they are ruled by power groups be they nobility, religious, merchants etc - voting does not happen that I am aware of - at least not for the small folk.

Also remember that many of the "small folk" wil not even want that - thats the Nobles job, thats why they are nobles, partly as a result of hundreds or thousands of years of the social structure that they inhabit.

Its a quasi medievil world - true democracy does not exisit and although they have magic hypersonic ravens - it would be vitually impossible to enact in any meaningful way due to technological limitiations. Most of them (and us) don't care anyway as long as they can live their lives in peace and reasonably well.

Rome and Greece had pseudo deomocracy but again it was just slightly different power groups at the top making the decisions.

Same as we have now.......

 Mr Morden wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Dany only didn't burn Kings Landing because several people begged her to do it.

She also managed to collapse the economy of an entire side of Essos because she's so self entitled and she believes that its either her way or the high way.

She is slowly turning into her father, she burnt 2 men alive because they refused to serve a queen who just waltz into the country with a couple of dragons and has spent her entire time having to be convinced to not burn everything.

Dany would not make a great queen.

And burning Kings Landing would have ended the war in one day and saved more lives than it killed, Tywin would have done it, Robert would have done it, Stanis would have done it - in fact ther advisors were wrong to advise against it. She didn;t do it becase the show needed to go on longer,

She burned two men who refused to turn sides (for the second time) and who were bent on serving a Queen that bew up the main cathedral of her own people plus the assembled clergy. Again any normal king of the time or the medieval time would quite likely kill them or suffer for it later . I am not sure you get the world in which she lives.

The ecomony of the region was based on extremly brutal slavery - by your argument the slave trade should still be flourishing now and those who stopped it are evil.

Of course she is entitled - thats what being royal born means.

She is fairly pragamatic, adaptable and willing to listen to advice, anyone else of royal blood fit that bill?

The mad king would of landed with his dragon... and then burned cersai and all the lanisters alive with it as a negoiation.
probbly would have been alot easier admitly. all her main lords and guards with her, jamie, the main lanister general and her fleet command,

Indeed - Dany did not need to even do that - repeat Meerem - fly arund the harbour, burn some ships, show off a bit to show everyone there is no chance against her.

Then send an ultimation, no need for a battle. But then we would not have needed two more seasons, the dead would have faced a united Seven kingdoms and it would have been all very one sided. I do prefer that world, but its not as exciting tv - probably.

As long as she is not a complete disaster as a ruler, in a few years no one would have cared if she even burnt the city.. its what conquerors do, the small folk would have got on with their lives and the nobility would either be dead or plotting to prosper in her court.

good show move, bad statagy.

Cersai now has time ot mass make those anti dragon crossbow and turn the red keep into a fortified flak castle.
admitly, she could of ended the war in a stroke removing the entire main lanister and alleince command in a single strike.

She did. you do not leave cersai alive. no way in hell. too dangerous..
rather dull for tv. but makes sense as a war.

now back onto post below, Veris, well he yes, he never liked anyone in power though. he seems to prefer the game of it all which is somewhat at odds with Dany and her aims to break the game. On this point you see why she and Jon are compatable bar obvious.

Take soimeone like Sansa. she gonna not like her, One she is not the game player she is and nudges Jon her way., 2, Dany has Jon snow under her side now. Sansa weilded power via Jon as such. so, her control, less power for Sansa. People like Dany and Jon weaken the game players as they are not like the Cersai's who are the game.

but thats a side thought.
it seems all those who seem to love the game have joined Dany which is very odd as she represents a different game, a game they might not have the same level of power.

But point comes in.

you have a new era. you have the new game, the white walkers and the greater war. and the old game of thrones now clashing.

So would the Undead have been able to breach the Wall without the help of the Zombie Dragon?

Dany may have proved herself to Jon by flying her Dragon beyond the Wall, but by 'bending the knee' to her he is retuning the North to southern rule. This, I see this as a betrayal.
He had already secured her help, giving the North away was unnecessary and also if he felt it was indeed necessary it could have been a conditional agreement that he will declare fealty to Dany after the Undead were defeated. If the agreement was conditional, then at least the North would think that Dany earned her rulership.

Gilly has proven herself robust and fertile and managed to have a baby under terrible conditions, the Citadel by comparison is luxury. While it is possible that she did not fall pregnant in that time, it just seems like a lapse in creating backstory without actually having to devote any on screen time to it, (Or perhaps I am alone in imagining Sam and Gilly getting it on like rabbits and wanting some visual confirmation).

I never said she would leave Cersei alive just did not need to burn Kings Landing in the first pass. Give them a day - then do it if they don't surrender.

Qyburn would not have found his crossbow for a few months so that was no worry.

I do find it interesting that the Iron Bank has such power - historically medievil bankers did have some power but equally they could themselves be driven to bancruptcy by kings and Queens who refused to pay their debts.

 StygianBeach wrote:
So would the Undead have been able to breach the Wall without the help of the Zombie Dragon?

Dany may have proved herself to Jon by flying her Dragon beyond the Wall, but by 'bending the knee' to her he is retuning the North to southern rule. This, I see this as a betrayal.
He had already secured her help, giving the North away was unnecessary and also if he felt it was indeed necessary it could have been a conditional agreement that he will declare fealty to Dany after the Undead were defeated. If the agreement was conditional, then at least the North would think that Dany earned her rulership.

Gilly has proven herself robust and fertile and managed to have a baby under terrible conditions, the Citadel by comparison is luxury. While it is possible that she did not fall pregnant in that time, it just seems like a lapse in creating backstory without actually having to devote any on screen time to it, (Or perhaps I am alone in imagining Sam and Gilly getting it on like rabbits and wanting some visual confirmation).

Dany saved the King of the North (despite his best efforts to kill himself again) and lost a Dragon for it. Whose idea was it to go get a zombie, whose idea to send Flash Gendry and Hypersonic Ravens for help.

Now whether the North sees this as an approrpiate sacrfice will be up to them.

re Gilly - well without going into detail - it might depend on how difficult the birth was etc. Would it have added to the story - not for me. Also Sam may be infertile.

I thought the idea of proof of the dead was Tyrions idea?

 Mr Morden wrote:
I never said she would leave Cersei alive just did not need to burn Kings Landing in the first pass. Give them a day - then do it if they don't surrender.

Qyburn would not have found his crossbow for a few months so that was no worry.

I do find it interesting that the Iron Bank has such power - historically medievil bankers did have some power but equally they could themselves be driven to bancruptcy by kings and Queens who refused to pay their debts.

 StygianBeach wrote:
So would the Undead have been able to breach the Wall without the help of the Zombie Dragon?

Dany may have proved herself to Jon by flying her Dragon beyond the Wall, but by 'bending the knee' to her he is retuning the North to southern rule. This, I see this as a betrayal.
He had already secured her help, giving the North away was unnecessary and also if he felt it was indeed necessary it could have been a conditional agreement that he will declare fealty to Dany after the Undead were defeated. If the agreement was conditional, then at least the North would think that Dany earned her rulership.

Gilly has proven herself robust and fertile and managed to have a baby under terrible conditions, the Citadel by comparison is luxury. While it is possible that she did not fall pregnant in that time, it just seems like a lapse in creating backstory without actually having to devote any on screen time to it, (Or perhaps I am alone in imagining Sam and Gilly getting it on like rabbits and wanting some visual confirmation).

Dany saved the King of the North (despite his best efforts to kill himself again) and lost a Dragon for it. Whose idea was it to go get a zombie, whose idea to send Flash Gendry and Hypersonic Ravens for help.

Now whether the North sees this as an approrpiate sacrfice will be up to them.

re Gilly - well without going into detail - it might depend on how difficult the birth was etc. Would it have added to the story - not for me. Also Sam may be infertile.

Also North , well North belives Jon on White walkers and all that far as i know and so they may see Dany as a far lesser threat than the dead.
Even if not at first. soon learn that a dragon queen as far preferable to being annihilated by the night king.

Its a war Living vs the dead, not the houses vs house like before
Different rules.

Also, and yes, she not even have to burn city, Cersai abdoned Castley rock so red keep has become primiary Lanister fortress. if thats seen to burning or say the top towers smashed asunder.

the poor she so has kept under foot may not be so scared of the queen too.
also rather hurts the defending army morale.

so yes. you could "Burn" kings landing and not hurt too many civilains.

.

Iron bank, yeah they seem to be rather powerful... overly almost, they paid for stannis army, guess that was a rather bad investment and a fair loss.
though the fact so many great houses and such owe them money means they have fair leverage in westeros,