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When a model takes a wound is it a pool of wounds or is the wound characteristic reduced by the number of wounds inflicted, the reason I ask is whenot rolling for tellyporty mega blasta, it say if you roll a d6 and that is higher than the wounds characteristic the model is slain. So if you have a 7 wound model that has already received 4 wounds is that now classed as a 3 wound characteristic or is it still 7?

petchd wrote:
When a model takes a wound is it a pool of wounds or is the wound characteristic reduced by the number of wounds inflicted, the reason I ask is whenot rolling for tellyporty mega blasta, it say if you roll a d6 and that is higher than the wounds characteristic the model is slain. So if you have a 7 wound model that has already received 4 wounds is that now classed as a 3 wound characteristic or is it still 7?

The rules clearly state that the model loses wounds, and when reduced to '0' it is slain.

Why would you think models don't lose wounds?


Although this did make me realize the rules for targeting characters are broken...because once a character gets below 10 wounds, suddenly it can't be targeted freely anymore, which is obviously ridiculous (one more to add to the FAQ list).

That doesn't necessarily mean the characteristic, it could looked at as the unit is on 6/10 wounds characteristic is still 10

petchd wrote:
That doesn't necessarily mean the characteristic, it could looked at as the unit is on 6/10 wounds characteristic is still 10

Look at the rules for shooting and losing wounds. There is absolutely no indication there is a pool or you're tracking wounds up to the model's characteristic or anything else like that. The model loses wounds. And when it reaches 0 it is removed. That's all there is.

I think with GW cleaning up 40k it's desirable for players to think in terms more along with intent rather than strict RAW as a high powered attorney would. For character targeting if they started with more than 10 wounds they are friggin huge and able to be seen clearly enough to target as they tower above their troops. As they lose wounds they don't shrivel or deflate, they just walk or fly slower and attack less or more weakly.

As a TO I would rule if that way, and also encourage any casual friendly games to be played that way too.

Wound characteristic refers to what's written on the datasheet.
When a model looses a wound, it does look like the wound characteristic goes down by one, and that at any time the number of remaining wound is the current wound characteristic (there is no indication of the opposite).

Based on what's written in the ork power and the character-targetting box, I feel like when they use "wound characteristic" they mean "what's written on the datasheet, as opposed to the number of remaining wounds". But I can't find anything in the rules to back that up.

I think the best example of this is found with those models which have more than 10 wounds and have certain characteristics that have a *.

Damage
Some of this model's characteristics change as it suffers damage, as shown below:

REMAINING W (Characteristic Matrix)

Since it says REMAINING, it would mean the actual characteristic is not changing. Damage does not, in game terms, modify the W characteristic. The Wounds definition is

Wounds show how much damage a model can sustain before it succumbs to its injuries

Can indicates potential.

Under Inflict Damage it does not say "reduce Wound characteristic by one fore each point of damage" it states

A model loses one wound for each point of damage it suffers.

Note it is wound and not W nor Wound.

If REMAINING meant CURRENT, they would simply say CURRENT. The other indicator is in the "HEAL" type abilities, they all have something to the effect of

The model regains X lost wounds

If the W is actually being modified by damage, there are no "lost wounds", once again it states wounds not W nor Wounds. It also clarifies that since it is "lost wounds" that one can not regain MORE than the number of wounds indicated by the W characteristic.

The other part of this is for years I've seen people use dice on models to indicate damage, some of them use damage suffered others use wounds remaining, neither is wrong, and both have been accepted in GW Tournament play.

 yakface wrote:


Although this did make me realize the rules for targeting characters are broken...because once a character gets below 10 wounds, suddenly it can't be targeted freely anymore, which is obviously ridiculous (one more to add to the FAQ list).

This is indeed true, but only for characters that have the DAMAGE matrix as part of their data sheet, as it is a special rule that is only applied to units with this in their data sheet. Without this matrix and wording a character's wound characteristic would never change, just the amount of wounds remaining.

We can't apply rules specified on one data sheet and transfer them to another unit's data sheet.

 Idolator wrote:
This is indeed true, but only for characters that have the DAMAGE matrix as part of their data sheet, as it is a special rule that is only applied to units with this in their data sheet. Without this matrix and wording a character's wound characteristic would never change, just the amount of wounds remaining.

We can't apply rules specified on one data sheet and transfer them to another unit's data sheet.

First off, don't all models that start over 10 wounds have a damage matrix (I could be wrong, but I thought that was the guideline for when units got a damage matrix)?

But secondly, can you please direct me to any implication in the rules that when models lose a wound this doesn't mean they're losing a wound from their characteristics. Otherwise, what does it mean to have a model reduced to '0' wounds? And why would you think that models with a damage matrix would lose wounds when they suffer damage, but other models don't when they suffer damage? In both cases the rules tell us that when models take damage they lose wounds?

This gets back to my question about characteristic versus value.

People have argued that they are interchangeable as it relates to morale.

For instance, Ork Boyz with Mob Rule have a leadership characteristic and value that are the same, is the argument I've heard.

So, the characteristic is what's written on the data sheet, the value is what the current value is.

 Marmatag wrote:
This gets back to my question about characteristic versus value.

People have argued that they are interchangeable as it relates to morale.

For instance, Ork Boyz with Mob Rule have a leadership characteristic and value that are the same, is the argument I've heard.

So, the characteristic is what's written on the data sheet, the value is what the current value is.

I mean, that's a fine construct for someone to speculate about, but GW certainly hasn't written that in the rules.

They could obviously FAQ it to say that is the case (that there's a difference between 'value' and 'characteristic' in rules), but until they do, its not something that is supported by the written rules.

 yakface wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
This is indeed true, but only for characters that have the DAMAGE matrix as part of their data sheet, as it is a special rule that is only applied to units with this in their data sheet. Without this matrix and wording a character's wound characteristic would never change, just the amount of wounds remaining.

We can't apply rules specified on one data sheet and transfer them to another unit's data sheet.

First off, don't all models that start over 10 wounds have a damage matrix (I could be wrong, but I thought that was the guideline for when units got a damage matrix)?

But secondly, can you please direct me to any implication in the rules that when models lose a wound this doesn't mean they're losing a wound from their characteristics. Otherwise, what does it mean to have a model reduced to '0' wounds? And why would you think that models with a damage matrix would lose wounds when they suffer damage, but other models don't when they suffer damage? In both cases the rules tell us that when models take damage they lose wounds?

I think that all models that start with ten wounds have a damage matrix. I may have missed one that has 10 that doesn't.

There are no implications that I know of that when a model loses a wound that it doesn't mean that they're losing a wound from their characteristic. I also can find no rule, outside of the damage table on data sheets that states that a model loses a wound from their characteristic at any time.

Since there is no rule (besides the damage chart on certain data sheets) that states that the characteristic itself is changed....then it isn't.

 Idolator wrote:
I think that all models that start with ten wounds have a damage matrix. I may have missed one that has 10 that doesn't.

There are no implications that I know of that when a model loses a wound that it doesn't mean that they're losing a wound from their characteristic. I also can find no rule, outside of the damage table on data sheets that states that a model loses a wound from their characteristic at any time.

Since there is no rule (besides the damage chart on certain data sheets) that states that the characteristic itself is changed....then it isn't.

So how are a 'model's wounds reduced to 0', so that it can be slain/destroyed? There is nothing indicating that there is anything other than a wounds characteristic. So when the shooting rules say that: 'a model loses one wound for each point of damage it suffers' how is that not saying that the model's wounds characteristic is being reduced?

 yakface wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
I think that all models that start with ten wounds have a damage matrix. I may have missed one that has 10 that doesn't.

There are no implications that I know of that when a model loses a wound that it doesn't mean that they're losing a wound from their characteristic. I also can find no rule, outside of the damage table on data sheets that states that a model loses a wound from their characteristic at any time.

Since there is no rule (besides the damage chart on certain data sheets) that states that the characteristic itself is changed....then it isn't.

So how are a 'model's wounds reduced to 0', so that it can be slain/destroyed? There is nothing indicating that there is anything other than a wounds characteristic. So when the shooting rules say that: 'a model loses one wound for each point of damage it suffers' how is that not saying that the model's wounds characteristic is being reduced?

When a model has a move characteristic of 5" and it moves 4" in a turn, is its move characteristic reduced to 1"? No. It's the same with wounds.

Now, I whole heartedly agree that a regular units wound characteristic should not change, ever. Based on the fact that the wounds definition clearly states: Wounds show how much damage a model can sustain before it succumbs to its injuries. It is the characteristic that informs you how many wounds that it has that you can lose.

The rules then tell you how to keep track of how much more damage a unit can take after receiving damage. It uses a subtraction method to determine how much more damage it can take. If you used tick marks it does the same thing, just counting upward.

The damage chart, however, actually tells you to change the wounds characteristic, because it affects how the unit operates. As the Wounds Characteristic changes so do several other characteristics. Only those units with this special chart are affected in this way.

In game terms, as a unit with this damage chart decreases it's Wound Characteristic, It also reduces its Move Characteristic, as well as other Characteristics such as Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength, and Attacks. You wont find this happen on any other unit without the chart. Once a Character with this chart begins to lower it's wound characteristic, it becomes less of a threat on the battlefield and its targeting priority also decreases.

After all, a monster with three legs left, slinking across the battlefield on it's belly is not as much of a priority ( and not as easy to see) as a lively rampaging beast.

<DAEMON> Daemon Princes have 10 Wounds, but no damage matrix.

Would it be impossible to score the Big Game Hunter Tactical Objective then since you need to kill something with 10 wounds and when it's dead it has 0 wounds?

 Idolator wrote:
When a model has a move characteristic of 5" and it moves 4" in a turn, is its move characteristic reduced to 1"? No. It's the same with wounds.

How is that remotely the same thing? The rules literally tell us that when models suffer damage they lose wounds. That is about as literal as they can make it. There is absolutely no comparable situation with any other characteristic (in the main rules). However, we do know that models can have their characteristics reduced (the rules say that), so again: by what basis can you possibly say that the model's wound characteristic is not being lowered when it is clearly inferred in the rules, and by your own admission it has to happen for models with the wound matrix to function?

The rules then tell you how to keep track of how much more damage a unit can take after receiving damage. It uses a subtraction method to determine how much more damage it can take. If you used tick marks it does the same thing, just counting upward.

No it doesn't. It says that models lose wounds when they take damage, and that when they reach '0' they are slain/destroyed.

The damage chart, however, actually tells you to change the wounds characteristic, because it affects how the unit operates. As the Wounds Characteristic changes so do several other characteristics. Only those units with this special chart are affected in this way.

No it does not. It just tells you to change the OTHER characteristics of the model 'as it suffers damage'. And how is that damage tracked? By its remaining wounds. This is completely and totally consistent with the core rules which say models lose wounds when they take damage.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
<DAEMON> Daemon Princes have 10 Wounds, but no damage matrix.

Thanks, I knew there had to be an exception!

 AduroT wrote:
Would it be impossible to score the Big Game Hunter Tactical Objective then since you need to kill something with 10 wounds and when it's dead it has 0 wounds?

I mean, its basically the same issue with characters that start with 10 wounds suddenly gaining target protection during the game when they're under 10 wounds. GW has done a crap job of being consistent on this front, so they need to FAQ this so we know when we're supposed to look at the model's starting W characteristic and when we're supposed to deal with their current W characteristic.

We obviously know what they're saying in that particular case, because it can't be anything else and still make any sense, but they obviously need to be more careful.

Are we seriously arguing over wounds? I thought it was quite simple. For example, You start with 20 wounds. As you lose wounds, your stats get worse depending on how many remaining wounds you have, as indicated on that units data sheet.

It's not rocket science people.

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
Are we seriously arguing over wounds? I thought it was quite simple. For example, You start with 20 wounds. As you lose wounds, your stats get worse depending on how many remaining wounds you have, as indicated on that units data sheet.

It's not rocket science people.

The OP's question is: When something in the rules refer to the wound characteristics, does it refer to the number of wounds written on the datasheet (the amount you start the battle with), or does it refer to your remaining wounds.
If it's the latter (and I'm also of the opinion that it's what the rules say), then you run into many problems, such as characters that become un-targetable as soon as their remaining wounds drop below 10.

Plus it makes one of the Tactical Objectives impossible to score since it says you have to kill something with a Wounds Characteristic of 10 or more, and if the Wounds Characteristic was your remaining wounds, you can never kill something with more than 0. It seems pretty obvious to me that rules that ask for someone's Wound Characteristic is asking for their starting wound value printed in their rules.

 AduroT wrote:
Plus it makes one of the Tactical Objectives impossible to score since it says you have to kill something with a Wounds Characteristic of 10 or more, and if the Wounds Characteristic was your remaining wounds, you can never kill something with more than 0. It seems pretty obvious to me that rules that ask for someone's Wound Characteristic is asking for their starting wound value printed in their rules.

That has to be the intent. Otherwise it breaks several other things. a simple FAQ that says. "Reducing wounds does not reduce the wound characteristic, merely the wounds remaining."

 AduroT wrote:
Plus it makes one of the Tactical Objectives impossible to score since it says you have to kill something with a Wounds Characteristic of 10 or more, and if the Wounds Characteristic was your remaining wounds, you can never kill something with more than 0. It seems pretty obvious to me that rules that ask for someone's Wound Characteristic is asking for their starting wound value printed in their rules.

The problem is there is not consistency with "characteristic" and "value" such as with Morale.

A "10 wound model" is a model with a maximum of 10 wounds, which is different than "a model with 10 wounds."

A 10 wound model shot by a 3 damage gun becomes a 10 wound model with 7 wounds.

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
Are we seriously arguing over wounds? I thought it was quite simple. For example, You start with 20 wounds. As you lose wounds, your stats get worse depending on how many remaining wounds you have, as indicated on that units data sheet.

It's not rocket science people.

Its more complicated than that though. The Red Terror for example has the ability to Swallow Whole based on rolling a D6 and comparing to the highest Wound Characteristic. So does that mean that he can swallow a 10 wound Model that is now down to 5? Or is the Wound "characteristic" still 10 but he has 5 wounds left??

That is a good point. The Red Terror eating a damaged Warlord Titan does not feel like RAI.

Fragile wrote:

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
Are we seriously arguing over wounds? I thought it was quite simple. For example, You start with 20 wounds. As you lose wounds, your stats get worse depending on how many remaining wounds you have, as indicated on that units data sheet.

It's not rocket science people.

Its more complicated than that though. The Red Terror for example has the ability to Swallow Whole based on rolling a D6 and comparing to the highest Wound Characteristic. So does that mean that he can swallow a 10 wound Model that is now down to 5? Or is the Wound "characteristic" still 10 but he has 5 wounds left??

Perfect!

It can be determined that the subtraction of wounds is not a reduction of the characteristic. Merely the reduction of wounds indicated by the characteristic.
Any subtraction of wounds listed on the damage chart does not change the wound characteristic but does change any other listed characteristics.

Settled.

 Idolator wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
Are we seriously arguing over wounds? I thought it was quite simple. For example, You start with 20 wounds. As you lose wounds, your stats get worse depending on how many remaining wounds you have, as indicated on that units data sheet.

It's not rocket science people.

Its more complicated than that though. The Red Terror for example has the ability to Swallow Whole based on rolling a D6 and comparing to the highest Wound Characteristic. So does that mean that he can swallow a 10 wound Model that is now down to 5? Or is the Wound "characteristic" still 10 but he has 5 wounds left??

Perfect!

It can be determined that the subtraction of wounds is not a reduction of the characteristic. Merely the reduction of wounds indicated by the characteristic.
Any subtraction of wounds listed on the damage chart does not change the wound characteristic but does change any other listed characteristics.

Settled.

Nothing in your statement settles anything. You simply restated the argument already laid out without any supporting facts.

As the rulebook states under Datasheets characteristics change with remaining wounds and not with wounds characteristics x.

IMO wound characteristics = total value on the raw datasheet. If a model looses wounds the wound characteristic is only modified.

@The Red Terror: With this in mind he can only nom models in units with a wound characteristic of 6 or less.

 Zeshi wrote:
As the rulebook states under Datasheets characteristics change with remaining wounds and not with wounds characteristics x.

IMO wound characteristics = total value on the raw datasheet. If a model looses wounds the wound characteristic is only modified.

@The Red Terror: With this in mind he can only nom models in units with a wound characteristic of 6 or less.

I appreciate the sentiment, buy can you find anything in the rules that specifies that 'remaining wounds' is anything different from the model's current wound characteristic after it has lost some wounds?

Because I think we all want that to be the case, but I don't think the rules say anything like that. There is zero distinction in the rules between wounds remaining and the wounds characteristic. They are only ever presented (from what I can tell) as one and the same thing.

Like the thing you're missing would be something in the rules saying 'models start with a pool of wounds equal to their wounds characteristic. As they suffer wounds, they lose these wounds and when they reach '0' wounds in their wound pool, then they're removed from the table.'

But there's nothing like that. There is just a wounds characteristic and then the rules tell us that when a model suffers damage it loses wounds. So if a model taking damage isn't lowering its wounds characteristic, then for the RAW to work the way you're saying they would have to give us something else besides the wounds characteristic to keep track of.

 yakface wrote:

 Zeshi wrote:
As the rulebook states under Datasheets characteristics change with remaining wounds and not with wounds characteristics x.

IMO wound characteristics = total value on the raw datasheet. If a model looses wounds the wound characteristic is only modified.

@The Red Terror: With this in mind he can only nom models in units with a wound characteristic of 6 or less.

I appreciate the sentiment, buy can you find anything in the rules that specifies that 'remaining wounds' is anything different from the model's current wound characteristic after it has lost some wounds?

Because I think we all want that to be the case, but I don't think the rules say anything like that. There is zero distinction in the rules between wounds remaining and the wounds characteristic. They are only ever presented (from what I can tell) as one and the same thing.

Like the thing you're missing would be something in the rules saying 'models start with a pool of wounds equal to their wounds characteristic. As they suffer wounds, they lose these wounds and when they reach '0' wounds in their wound pool, then they're removed from the table.'

But there's nothing like that. There is just a wounds characteristic and then the rules tell us that when a model suffers damage it loses wounds. So if a model taking damage isn't lowering its wounds characteristic, then for the RAW to work the way you're saying they would have to give us something else besides the wounds characteristic to keep track of.

Or lead to immortal models unless the Damage equals the Wounds Characteristic! That's a scary thought.

In Shooting, we are told that, "A model loses one wound for each point of damage it suffers." So we have an instruction to modify the Wounds characteristic for that model as listed on the profile. That is sufficiently direct of an instruction for me, at any rate.

So Big Game Hunter is just an impossible mission then.