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To Renegade players : please, do NOT buy Index : Forces of the Astra Militarum.
This Renegades and Heretics list shows total disregard for the players and total absence of faithfulness to the list itself.
The units are the same as Astra militarum but worse in every way. They are the same price, but have worse leadership, worse save, worse basilisk skill, no access to orders, worse psykers and truly no special rules. I repeat : they are the same price but worse, with no special rule. Just a fact, not an opinion.

It's also got a lot of rule as written issues, some HQs aren't characters, and gak is just weird. I do like the 34 point snipers with camo cloaks+1 though.

As anyone don't buy the book. I'm glad I got the digital version as I may have a working book at some point. Don't get the paper version until they reprint one with all the glaring errors/omissions and mistakes fixed.

I think it would be ok if all you want to do is add a few guardsmen or vehicles to your existing Chaos force. As a stand alone army though, you are better just doing counts-as Guard.

If you really want people to not buy it share links to it so more can see how BAD it is

Oldmike wrote:
If you really want people to not buy it share links to it so more can see how BAD it is

Nice try Mr. Get-People-To-Break-Forum-Rules Fairy!. I shall not fall for your ploys today!

Why am I not surprised? People can use the Lost & Damned list from 3rd or the Siege of Vraks list to represent traitor guard.

Not since the 17th of June, they can't. This is 8th edition they're talking about.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Not since the 17th of June, they can't. This is 8th edition they're talking about.

Doesn´t matter if this is 8th or 37th. If GW is too stupid to provide gamers with a reasonable codex for their beloved faction than said gamers have to improvise. Just take units from the older codices and port them over to 8th. This shouldn´t be rocket science. Play a few test games and tweak a few rules and you are done.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Not since the 17th of June, they can't. This is 8th edition they're talking about.

Doesn´t matter if this is 8th or 37th. If GW is too stupid to provide gamers with a reasonable codex for their beloved faction than said gamers have to improvise. Just take units from the older codices and port them over to 8th. This shouldn´t be rocket science. Play a few test games and tweak a few rules and you are done.

So the answer is "players should just write their own codex" then?

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Not since the 17th of June, they can't. This is 8th edition they're talking about.

Doesn´t matter if this is 8th or 37th. If GW is too stupid to provide gamers with a reasonable codex for their beloved faction than said gamers have to improvise. Just take units from the older codices and port them over to 8th. This shouldn´t be rocket science. Play a few test games and tweak a few rules and you are done.

So the answer is "players should just write their own codex" then?

Or their own game

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Not since the 17th of June, they can't. This is 8th edition they're talking about.

Doesn´t matter if this is 8th or 37th. If GW is too stupid to provide gamers with a reasonable codex for their beloved faction than said gamers have to improvise. Just take units from the older codices and port them over to 8th. This shouldn´t be rocket science. Play a few test games and tweak a few rules and you are done.

So the answer is "players should just write their own codex" then?

Or their own game

It's just easier to start a new wargames business, really.

 Selym wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Not since the 17th of June, they can't. This is 8th edition they're talking about.

Doesn´t matter if this is 8th or 37th. If GW is too stupid to provide gamers with a reasonable codex for their beloved faction than said gamers have to improvise. Just take units from the older codices and port them over to 8th. This shouldn´t be rocket science. Play a few test games and tweak a few rules and you are done.

So the answer is "players should just write their own codex" then?

Or their own game

It's just easier to start a new wargames business, really.

9th Age created a great ruleset for Fantasy Wargaming which is not driven to sell a particular unit type each time an edition change occurs. This could also be done with 40K. In what shape is 8th currently? According to a lot of posters it is play hordes or go home.
The introduction of houserules shouldn´t be anathema but encouraged. Seriously, focus your drive & energy on your creativity and stop bitching about rules that will only change with the advent of the next edition.

I have only ever met one person who would let me use a houserule that limited how bottom-tier an army was, and that was only because it was his army that was bottom-tier. Grace, charity and a sense of fair play has been pretty much absent in my experience of 40k.

 Selym wrote:
I have only ever met one person who would let me use a houserule that limited how bottom-tier an army was, and that was only because it was his army that was bottom-tier. Grace, charity and a sense of fair play has been pretty much absent in my experience of 40k.

Out of interest, what sort of scene are you playing in? I've met both types. Back when I played at a GW, the player base was split between the more and less competitive sides. We even went to different pubs after games nights. It wasn't openly hostile or anything but you could tell the sides didn't mesh very well.

did anyone notice you can buy chimeras as transports but you can't actually put anyone in them XD

the book changes the imperium and the regiment keywords it does not change the 'astra milatrium' keyword and thats what a chimera dataslate can transport! XD

 Trickstick wrote:

 Selym wrote:
I have only ever met one person who would let me use a houserule that limited how bottom-tier an army was, and that was only because it was his army that was bottom-tier. Grace, charity and a sense of fair play has been pretty much absent in my experience of 40k.

Out of interest, what sort of scene are you playing in? I've met both types. Back when I played at a GW, the player base was split between the more and less competitive sides. We even went to different pubs after games nights. It wasn't openly hostile or anything but you could tell the sides didn't mesh very well.

I don't even know the scene anymore, the more I interact with it the more I lose the will to live. I'm trying to arrange my first 8e game, as the new edition has had a hopeful start, but I seriously doubt the moral caliber of the people I play with at times.

 Selym wrote:
I don't even know the scene anymore, the more I interact with it the more I lose the will to live. I'm trying to arrange my first 8e game, as the new edition has had a hopeful start, but I seriously doubt the moral caliber of the people I play with at times.

I've been trying to get back into the game too. I may go to the local GW but there is also a club with membership fees and a bar. It may be worth looking around for a membership fee club near you, they probably have a higher calibre of player. Maybe, who knows?

I looked for clubs. My closest is a two hour drive away, and only meets on Tuesday evenings (wtf, why!?). Luckily I'll be at uni this year, and they have a wargaming club.

Last I checked the guard do not have chaos covenents....

You guys are over reacting.....its chaos guard with army wide marks instead of orders.

Yeah, you do not get guard stuff but you do have daemonic engines and the like available so relax.

EDIT: yeesh guys are you really complaining? The vox net is fantastic, 120 inch leadership bubble? Evil commisars? Marks? Daemon engines? What is there not to like?

You're paying premium points for less than guard level models. Militia should never the same cost as guard, they're not in the same league. Oh they can take 4 specials you say?. Good luck hitting anything with your ork aim. But at least you get to pay the same as guard for the privilege of pretending to be a greenskin. The weapons points cost are balanced against the GEQ BS4+ but none of the entries have BS4+ except for cultists who can't take any of the weapons. Sure disciples get their weapons at budget value with their BS3+ but you can't take that many of them. And nope, stacking disciple/command squads for value heavy weapons doesn't work, it's less cost effective than spamming BS5+ heavy weapons teams. But you need 9 teams to be able to hit anything in a meaningful way.

120" leadership bubble is great, until you roll a 1 & 2 for the leadership on your command squad and wasted those 10 points. You could take 3 command squads if you liked and spend 30pts on 3 chances of getting an actual good leadership your army can use. Though 30 pts almost buys you a new squad of Marauders with sniper rifles.

The covenants aren't balanced at all. Nurgles just plain sucks - a 6++ vs weapons of S4 or less. WOW! How many weapons of S3 or 4 do we have with actual rend? 1k Sons? Anything else? Slaanesh gets an ok bonus with extra advance and charge moves but then you're gonna want to run everything and not use that sweet BS5+. I guess it's good for immersion for your guardsmen LARPing as Orks. I can't even remember the Khorne one it had that much of an impression on me. Tzeentch is actually ok though, overwatch on 5+ is very nice. Shame we no longer have those sweet Bloody-Handed Reaver Grenadiers to make good use of it though. But it's far ad away the best covenant and if you can build your list right it could be a real pain in the nether regions for somebody who a builds a fisticuffs army.

The damned warlord BS is still there though, forcing you to choose a dumb human as your warlord to get your mandatory covenant of Tzeentch (if you picked a different one you did it wrong). So my CSm are still taking orders from this dweeb who thinks he's someone. Good job I'm rolling with Alpha Legion. Sure, let the chump believe he's in charge.... Put him up front and make a big show of his leadership prowess, yes that how it's done! Seriously though, it's dumb. It doesn't make sense. It's not fluffy, it doesn't add anything interesting to the list, it's just feckin annoying. And likely to be ignored by many R&H players. just don't tell your opponents that guy has to be warlord, lets keep it a secret.

As for the AM vehicles, the only reason they're good is that FW was too lazy/strapped for resources to actually write them into the list with BS5+. You know they were gonna do that and charge the same as AM vehicles. But they didn't even have the time to spellcheck the book, nevermind rewrite all those entries to keep up the Ork LARP facade. so we get vehicles just as good as AM, and the best thing, they can even transport AM units! They can't transport R&H units, which is a damned shame, but they can transport soldiers who can actually shoot straight! If you could ever take them in a chaos list :-( So dumb. but thel list isn'tplayable anyway, what with your mandatory warlord (to get your mandatory Tzeentch covenant) not even being a character. So he gets blasted off the table turn 1 for the easiest warlord kill in 40k. Great job!

So what should FW have done? Well Militia are nice for those who want a rabble army, but they're nice at 3pts ppm and with a bunch of flamers because orks can aim flamers apparently. Cultists are nice at 4 pts. They're guardsmen with a little less armour and worse weapons, but they can mob up, get 5+ overwatch (because why are you taking anything else) and if you get lucky with your command vox net will be cushioned well against morale. But they don't get buffed by Dark Apostles or Chaos Lords so they have no business costing the same as CSM cultists. 5+ overwatch isn't worth the 1 extra ppm. cultists should also have access to Chaos Icons like Disciples, weird that they don't. You should have the option to upgrade your WS/BS5+ guys to 4+ so they're as good as guard, for the same cost. Bloody Handed Reaver ability to improve their skill should be a base list mechanic.

Units should have better access to heavy stubbers, at a good price so they're crappy shooters can get a cheapo heavy weapon they don't feel cheated over for buying. Why would you spend 15 pts for an autocannon or more for a lascannon when your guys can't hit anything? Give them heavy stubber weapon teams and let militia take them as heavy weapons too. 4 pts for a little etra dakka is worth it, heavy bolters probably aren't.

Take away that damned warlord rule, it's dumb. Bring back some of the more interesting army specialisations int he form of covenants. There was some good stuff with the psycho artillery warlord, and the zombie master, and some of the others They added a lot of flavour to the faction and let you customise it to fit your own vision of a chaos force. Now all we got are cult armies (and not all of them are great). Nothing for chaos undivided, except going without a covenant which you're paying for in the list as it's frickin free for everyone. so the cost of those covenants are written into the commander costs already, so not taking one is not taking something you already paid for. Give us an undivided covenant, and bring back the interesting ones too.

Other than the criticisms of pints costs for the crappy troop units (who's job is really just to die for the greater glory of chaos anyway) and the ridiculous warlord business and his weak sauce covenants, the only other gripes come from the laziness of the list, the cut and paste rules insertions without scribbling out the wrong keywords and writing the correct ones underneath. And the missing special rules from some vehicles and characters.

Other than this there's some good stuff in there, but it's good stuff to take as auxiliary forces for other chaos armies. You want snipers in your CSM army? well you got a stealth sniper team for 34pts. Take 4 of them and drop that havoc squad you don't really need anyway. 8 sniper rifles should get you some value on the table. disciples are also good. Give them plasma and they're every bit as good as marines with plasma at a fraction of the cost. And you don't need to feel bad about overcharging these sacrificial lambs, they're not marines afterall and thus their lives don't matter.

I'd say play CSM and take what you like out of this list to support your real forces. A pure R&H army is probably way too gimped to be competitive right now.

my over all impression if forgeworld was rushed. they likely got the 8th ediution rules much later and had to rush to get this stuff out ontime

I just intended to clarify a few points, so there are a few cuts in the quote. I fully agree with your arguments, but I thought I could explain the reasoning a little more, because honestly, your text comes from someone who is very mad and it's a little hard to see the details.

Demantiae wrote:
Oh they can take 4 specials you say?. Good luck hitting anything with your ork aim. But at least you get to pay the same as guard for the privilege of pretending to be a greenskin. The weapons points cost are balanced against the GEQ BS4+ but none of the entries have BS4+ except for cultists who can't take any of the weapons. Sure disciples get their weapons at budget value with their BS3+ but you can't take that many of them. And nope, stacking disciple/command squads for value heavy weapons doesn't work, it's less cost effective than spamming BS5+ heavy weapons teams. But you need 9 teams to be able to hit anything in a meaningful way.

A Cutlist has BS5+, so it will hit a third of time. A guardsman with BS4+ hits half the time, or 50% more often. So you would need to take 1.5 Special Weapons to equal a guard one, while paying for 1. You can get a better concentration of them though, but then you're almost in Veteran territory costwise. The Heavy Weapons teams cost 3 pts instead of 4, getting BS5+ instead of BS4+ and a worse save. So you pay 25% less for 33% less accuracy and worse defence.

120" leadership bubble is great, until you roll a 1 & 2 for the leadership on your command squad and wasted those 10 points. You could take 3 command squads if you liked and spend 30pts on 3 chances of getting an actual good leadership your army can use. Though 30 pts almost buys you a new squad of Marauders with sniper rifles.

And instead of taking voxes, you could just take Enforcers. Remember than 1D6 has an average value of 3.5, while 2d6 pick highest has 4.5 So you pay 5 pts/squad to increase leadership by one. Guess what'll prevent more losses to leadership? Shooting your own men, for 30 points per body. Of course, they lack the CHARACTER keyword, but that's a very clear error and nobody except the biggest arsehats should complain.

The damned warlord BS is still there though, forcing you to choose a dumb human as your warlord to get your mandatory covenant of Tzeentch (if you picked a different one you did it wrong). So my CSm are still taking orders from this dweeb who thinks he's someone. Good job I'm rolling with Alpha Legion. Sure, let the chump believe he's in charge.... Put him up front and make a big show of his leadership prowess, yes that how it's done! Seriously though, it's dumb. It doesn't make sense. It's not fluffy, it doesn't add anything interesting to the list, it's just feckin annoying. And likely to be ignored by many R&H players. just don't tell your opponents that guy has to be warlord, lets keep it a secret.

This is basically just forcing you to pay to get an armywide rule that only gives small benefits, whereas it could just have been a free rule.

As for the AM vehicles, the only reason they're good is that FW was too lazy/strapped for resources to actually write them into the list with BS5+. You know they were gonna do that and charge the same as AM vehicles. But they didn't even have the time to spellcheck the book, nevermind rewrite all those entries to keep up the Ork LARP facade. so we get vehicles just as good as AM, and the best thing, they can even transport AM units! They can't transport R&H units, which is a damned shame, but they can transport soldiers who can actually shoot straight! If you could ever take them in a chaos list :-( So dumb. but thel list isn'tplayable anyway, what with your mandatory warlord (to get your mandatory Tzeentch covenant) not even being a character. So he gets blasted off the table turn 1 for the easiest warlord kill in 40k. Great job!

The Astra Militarum Vehicles aren't even especially good, and most just talk about how good the infantry is. So even if you could transport R&H units, they wouldn't be stellar. The CHARACTER keyword error is just dumb.

Text about what should have been done

Conscripts are considered very good for their 3 pts/model, that's become apparent by this point. The normal Renegade Militia is a worse conscript in all but leadership, but can take special weapons. So why would they ever cost 4 points each? If that would ever become too good, just give them the basic weapon choices (flamers, heavy stubbers, grenade launchers) and reserve the more advanced ones for better units. Previously, they also had the option to pay 1 pts/model to get BS/WS4+, which could be flavoured as they were real guardsmen who had deserted or actually well trained heretics (Blood Pact from Gaunt's Ghost as an example).

Previously the Warlord could take special rules, each giving a unique flavour to the army. Maybe your warlord was a psyker, giving you easier access to other rogue psykers will not being a pushover himself. Or he was a heretek, giving you access to specialised vehicles! The list can be seen here https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Renegades_and_Heretics(7E)#Demagogue_Devotions or https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Renegades_and_Heretics(7E)#Devotions, showing you how much flavour was lost.

I've said it before, but right now it's just a worse version of AM. Your infantry is worse in almost every way, while your tanks are exactly the same. The army was full of flavour, allowing you play either barely trained hordes of heretics or well-trained human veterans who fought against the Imperium. Even if you fixed all the errors, it wouldn't be a fun list for those who played it before.

Just compare it to the DKoK, who lost some rules and units (having Heavy Artillery Batteries, or Combat Engineers as Troops or with Rapiers or Hades Drills, and some more), but it still feels like a Death Korps army. You get WS3+, showing the improved melee capabilities of the army, which is evident whenever you read about them. Your Death Korps units are immune to morale damage from shooting, showing their belief in the Cult of Sacrifice and training. You get heavier rough riders, showing how the Death Riders are shock cavalry instead of light reconnaissance.

Even if I don't play Renegades and Heretics, I feel for them. It's a bad list, with almost no flavour anymore. There is nothing redeeming it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
my over all impression if forgeworld was rushed. they likely got the 8th ediution rules much later and had to rush to get this stuff out ontime

Yes, we have realised that. And at least I understand it. But can you see the anger here? People have had their armies neutered. It's just like an buggy video game, even if it was rushed doesn't mean people have a right to be upset if they paid for it. I think the rules could have been massively improved if the people writing them had had some additional time, or more people. Some errors are okay, but most of this is just sloppy. Renegade Enforcers and Commanders aren't characters, so they get shot to hell in the first turn. The Macharius Vulcan gets to shoot additional shots in the previous shooting phase if it didn't move this movement phase. The Hierophant has BS3, not BS3+, so it only hits on a result of 3. The Eldar Corsairs aren't even a list anymore, just a few units.

I'm happy with what I've gotten, but it's still disappointing how bad of a job they've done.

not saying people don't have a right to be upset, I'm just trying to figure out what happened. with any luck, GW'll put out a codex etc for the lost and the damned, it'll be much better and players will be able to use that

Yeah, in 2 years time.

You're all making some poor work experience lad feel very bad by pointing out all his mistakes.

Even as a Thousand Sons player who was just looking for some models to add to her army the Renegades list is really sad. Only thing that could be valuable is the snipers, and I think that's more for lack of better options than the snipers being exceptionally good...

Are they actually the worst snipers in the game? I don't know much about all the other armies. Surely there are worse ones, even if it is just the -1 to hit keeping them from the bottom.

They probably aren't the worst snipers in the game per se, but I've been generally unimpressed with the efficiency of snipers in general. The Marauders being a bit more survivable than most might make them a more interesting option though; I'd certainly want to try them out.

Arachnofiend wrote:
They probably aren't the worst snipers in the game per se, but I've been generally unimpressed with the efficiency of snipers in general. The Marauders being a bit more survivable than most might make them a more interesting option though; I'd certainly want to try them out.

What, exactly, are the Marauders meant to be? Guardsmen or Chaos Astartes?