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By the way, you might need to reconsider the rating of Command Squads after the FAQ:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/02/warhammer-40000-faq-now-available-july2gw-homepage-post-1/

Particularly this:

Page 10 – Astra Militarum Army List
Add the following rule:
‘Matched Play – Command Squads If you are playing a matched play game, a Battle-forged army can include a maximum of one <Regiment> Command Squad (pg 15) in a Detachment for each <Regiment> Officer in that Detachment. Similarly, if you are playing a matched play game, a Battleforged army can include a maximum of one Militarum Tempestus Command Squad (pg 51) in a Detachment for each Tempestor Prime (pg 50) in that Detachment.

thanks for the feedback! I'll be going on vacation this week, so don't expect troops until the 11th or so, unless I get really motivated in the next few days.

Cyrixiinus wrote:Will analysis of forgeworld units be put up on here at some point as well.

oooff... I suppose, if there is a demand. A quick glance at the FW index makes it look like a hot mess, and there's a ton of stuff packed into the Krieg and Elysian lists. I suppose I will do my best though.

Orlanth wrote:Hey Polonius, good work so far, nice to see a tactica tread that is accumulating a tactica. Can you redeem the mistake of other 8th army tactica threads and copy paste your sections into the OP, with any amendments for feedback received. It would be nice to evolve this into a self compiling article.

I will up to the character limit. so far, everything is posted to the OP. I may have to resort to links if it gets too big though.

vipoid wrote:

 doc1234 wrote:
I'm wondering if we'll be seeing many full mechvet lists any more. Using PL (my group has shed the shackles of cost of ppm lol) a single vet squad runs you as much as either two infantry squads or an infantry plus another commander. While its still hard to argue at a melts/shotgun squad diving out of a chimera, whats peoples analysis on the other typical vet build of plasmas vs the equivalent two infantry squads? Do you go more boys or more toys?

Well, first off, I have a hard time justifying chimeras anymore. They seem insanely expensive given the loss of fire-points and poor weapons.

Transports aside, I think it's important to note that Veterans are now elites. And, since I think Battalions or Brigades are the way to go, the decision for me is between Infantry Squads and Scion Squads. Veterans, meanwhile, are competing with Scion Command Squads (and, IMO, don't compare favourably).

If Veterans were still troops, I think it would be a more interesting comparison with Infantry Squads. As it is though, they now feel out of place in my lists.

vipoid wrote:I think you quoted the wrong person.

Anyway, with regard to Chimeras, I'm wary of taking 2 HFs because they have a range of just 8", and the Chimera can't fire if anything charges it.

I think Chimeras are a very clear side dish now. In the past, you could build a pretty decent list around what the Chimera offered: upper mid level durability, lower mid level firepower, fire points, and the ability to dish out orders from inside. Now, the Chimera offers really only one thing: the ability to transport 12 models with decent durability. OTOH, it's actually a better fit now for aggressive maneuvers, but it's also substantially more expensive than in the past. Double heavy flamer requires getting close, but anything you're transporting also wants to get close, and losing a Multi-laster and heavy bolter isn't that big of a deal. Don't think of the heavy flamers as 17pts a piece, but as 9pt upgrades from the mandatory heavy bolter!

Bluthusten wrote:Ill try out:

-Straken
-10 Vets with heavyflamer, 3 flamer, shotguns
-priest

All in a Walkyrie. They can Jump out, move, flame and charge something. What do you think?

I think that's a 400 point package, and while I think it will mulch a squad when it hits, it damn well should. To give you some comparison, for ~660 points, you can take ten sternguard, with a fist and two heavy flamers, a dreadnought with assault cannon, CCW, and heavy flamer; and a Stormraven with hurrican bolters, twin lasannons, and twin multi-meltas. Yes, that's 60% more points, but it's way more durable, better in HtH, and has far more anti-tank.

yes, you built one of the best airmobile shock squads available to the IG, but it's still not a great buy. I think it would be a ton of fun though!





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
By the way, you might need to reconsider the rating of Command Squads after the FAQ:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/02/warhammer-40000-faq-now-available-july2gw-homepage-post-1/

Particularly this:

Page 10 – Astra Militarum Army List
Add the following rule:
‘Matched Play – Command Squads If you are playing a matched play game, a Battle-forged army can include a maximum of one <Regiment> Command Squad (pg 15) in a Detachment for each <Regiment> Officer in that Detachment. Similarly, if you are playing a matched play game, a Battleforged army can include a maximum of one Militarum Tempestus Command Squad (pg 51) in a Detachment for each Tempestor Prime (pg 50) in that Detachment.

I already did! I also cleared up the language about giving orders to Ogryn.

I think that command squads are still very good, but you obviously can't build armies around them anymore, as they pay a pretty nasty tax. Part of me is impishly tempted to combine a vanguard and supreme command detachment, and spam the command squads, using platoon commanders with power ax and plasma pistol to unlock them. That gives you mob of models with plasma pistols and three attack, WS3+ power axes. It's probably dumb, but it'd be fun!

 Polonius wrote:
.

Bluthusten wrote:Ill try out:

-Straken
-10 Vets with heavyflamer, 3 flamer, shotguns
-priest

All in a Walkyrie. They can Jump out, move, flame and charge something. What do you think?

I think that's a 400 point package, and while I think it will mulch a squad when it hits, it damn well should. To give you some comparison, for ~660 points, you can take ten sternguard, with a fist and two heavy flamers, a dreadnought with assault cannon, CCW, and heavy flamer; and a Stormraven with hurrican bolters, twin lasannons, and twin multi-meltas. Yes, that's 60% more points, but it's way more durable, better in HtH, and has far more anti-tank.

yes, you built one of the best airmobile shock squads available to the IG, but it's still not a great buy. I think it would be a ton of fun though!

I though about Silvester Stallone and his crew from The Expendables

Do Platoon Commanders unlock Command squads as well or just the senior officer (Company Commander)?

 davidgr33n wrote:
Do Platoon Commanders unlock Command squads as well or just the senior officer (Company Commander)?

Platoon commanders have the officer keyword, so they should be able to get a command squad.

Cant wait until all sections are complete - like you did in 5th edition and put it in the army guides section like you did in 5th

it pains me to say this and i know we havent come to it yet but i get a feeling that artillery will be superior this edition to tanks i.e. LRBT and its variants

The wyvern remains a beast! Average 14 attacks (so circa 7 hits with IG at the trigger) is nasty enough at strength 4, but you also get to re-roll wounds. It's gonna murdify light infantry. Heavy infantry... you'd have to get lucky on the dice, but forcing seven checks on terminators is going to cause a few failed armor saves.

But the Basilisk isn't looking too shabby either. 2d6-drop-the-lowest means an average of (slightly better than) 4 attacks, which should average out to 2 hits per shot (worse after you take some hits) of strength 9, AP -2, d3 wounds. Probably overkill for MEQ but not wasted on MCs and might be just what you need for Termies. However, I'm thinking it's overshadowed by the Manticore who ought to get more attacks every round. Someone will need to math-hammer how bad only getting 4 attacks per game is.

Putting master of ordanance next to these guys with 2-3 tech priests as you can easily fit 6 basilisks in 2000 points .... ouch

Two small corrections I would like to add: The Astropath with laspistol is 15 points, not 12, and you forgot to mention that Creed also gets carapace armour for a 4+ save, which makes him quite a bit more durable particularly against snipers compared to regular commanders.

Great guide, can't wait for your take on the other choices ;-)!

 sumi808 wrote:
Cant wait until all sections are complete - like you did in 5th edition and put it in the army guides section like you did in 5th

it pains me to say this and i know we havent come to it yet but i get a feeling that artillery will be superior this edition to tanks i.e. LRBT and its variants

The wyvern remains a beast! Average 14 attacks (so circa 7 hits with IG at the trigger) is nasty enough at strength 4, but you also get to re-roll wounds. It's gonna murdify light infantry. Heavy infantry... you'd have to get lucky on the dice, but forcing seven checks on terminators is going to cause a few failed armor saves.

But the Basilisk isn't looking too shabby either. 2d6-drop-the-lowest means an average of (slightly better than) 4 attacks, which should average out to 2 hits per shot (worse after you take some hits) of strength 9, AP -2, d3 wounds. Probably overkill for MEQ but not wasted on MCs and might be just what you need for Termies. However, I'm thinking it's overshadowed by the Manticore who ought to get more attacks every round. Someone will need to math-hammer how bad only getting 4 attacks per game is.

Putting master of ordanance next to these guys with 2-3 tech priests as you can easily fit 6 basilisks in 2000 points .... ouch

Artillery is superior to tanks in this edition. In my 2000 point list, I am using three Wyverns, two Manticores, and Pask in a Punisher with a lascannon and sponson heavy bolters. I am usually tabling opponents by the end of turn four. I still need to test it versus Nids and Ork hordes, but it murders all of the small elite armies regardless of how fast they move.

I won't be getting to Heavy support for a while, but my review of the tank commander pretty heavily foreshadowed my thoughts on the LRBT... overpriced, undergunned, and shockingly fragile. to be fair, we are spoilt for choice, but our poor Russes are Shermans that pay Panther prices.

 Polonius wrote:
I won't be getting to Heavy support for a while, but my review of the tank commander pretty heavily foreshadowed my thoughts on the LRBT... overpriced, undergunned, and shockingly fragile. to be fair, we are spoilt for choice, but our poor Russes are Shermans that pay Panther prices.

QFT

Its sad that of all leman russ variants there are only 3 that are not meh: punisher, demolishet and vanilla lrbt.

I would run pask in a punisher with lascannon and multi melta and with 2 demolishers as squad mates. One with 3 heavy flamers abd the other with 2 plasma cannons who can reroll ones thanks to pask. Any other tank would be artillery i.e. wyvern etc

If your going to take tanks in 8th edition might as well assault with them..it you want to sit back and shoot artillery is cheaper and better

But i get way ahead of myself ... looking forward to the nrxt installment man, i know youll do an awesome job on this like you did in 5th edition. I hope you can compose an article and get it stickied like last time

Have a good holiday in the meantime

Troops
This section got a shakeup, with Veterans leaving for Elites, the Platoon being broken up, and Scions joining the main list as a troop. All of them are pretty solid, leaving them all as fine choices for list building, and even better, they can all be mixed!

Infantry Squad
 The ground pounders, the dogfaces, the poor bloody infantry… the basic Infantry Squad is now freed from its fetters of platoon structure, and can be purchased ala carte.  The biggest change by far is the loss of combined squads, a much loved rule for nearly a decade.  Now, each squad must stand on its own.  Other than that, it’s basically the same.  You can buy a special, a heavy, and a power weapon (but not fist) and/or a plasma pistol for the sergeant.  You can also buy a vox caster, and now is probably a good a time as any to discuss this rule.  Basically, if an officer is within 3” of a unit with voxcaster (not the model itself), the officer can give an order to a unit within 18” (of the officer) as long as that squad also has a vox caster.  Keep in mind that voxes are 5pts each, and a platoon commander is only 20pts.  I don’t have a really problem with voxes, but I don’t think orders are good enough to try to extend the range a bit.  If you plan on having one or two solo squads, then go nuts, but I think that I’d rather simply have more officers than a vox network.  Only command squads, infantry squads, veterans can even take them, which I think reduces their efficacy somewhat. 
 
Anyway, the basic infantry squad does what it did in 3rd and 4th edition: it provides decent firepower at a low price.  How low?  Actually really low.  After dropping a point per model, the basic infantry can now be fielded with flamer and heavy bolter for only 55pts, or las/plas for 67pts.  That’s, uh, real cheap.  With six ablative wounds before losing a critical model, this is a lascannon that will stick around from all but focused fire.
 
The consensus early on is that the infantry squad is a distant third to the hard hitting scions and the uber efficient conscripts, but I think that there is room for cheap, decent firepower.  I wouldn’t include anything other than flamers, plasma, heavy bolters, or lascannons, as the other specials are either too weak or really want to be fielded in numbers, and the other heavy weapons simply don’t do much.  I think that you can make a case for only fielding conscripts, heavy weapon squads, and scions, but I also think that having squads with some pop is a good thing.  The choice is really up to you!
Overall: competitive
 
Conscripts 
I almost don’t want to write this, because the internet is aflame with conscripts being OP, but I think the target audience for this treatise is probably a player that doesn’t already know the internet consensus.  To be blunt, conscripts are ineffective warriors that can be taken in huge squads to take advantage of force multipliers.  What that means is that while they only shoot lasguns (and are only ever armed with lasguns) on a 5+, the unit of 50 can received FRF!SRF!, which doubles the whole squads firepower, for between 50 and 100 more shots.  At the goofy extreme, 100 more shots is 33 more hits, 11 more wounds on T3, and nearly four more dead space marines.  All from a unit that cost 150pts plus a 20pts platoon commander!  Okay, so just start shooting them, and watch them melt to morale.  Add a 31pt commissar, so you only lose one more a turn due to morale.  Okay, so just charge them and tie them up in combat.  Well, the officer can order them to fight an extra time, or fall back and shoot.  If they want to fight, a 35pts priest gives them all an extra attack for both rounds of swinging.  Even thirty conscripts swinging twice with a priest put out 120 attacks.  Okay, you say, but now you’re pouring 86 points of upgrades into a 150pt unit, so it’s not all that efficient!  Well… bump the platoon commander to a company commander, and with clever positioning you can do this for two 50 man blobs.  396pts buys you over 100 wounds, and the ability to put out 400 shots a turn.

In practice, this won’t be fun, and you’ll quickly run out of time if you include too many of the bastards.  Given that these are not permanent codexes, I wouldn’t start building 300 conscripts to spam them.  Still, even a smaller package of a 50 man unit, a commissar, and a platoon commander is just a hair over 200 points, which is roughly the same as a lot of other armies 10 men squads.  One of the reasons that people like conscripts over infantry squads is that they can provide the same “bubble wrap” of physically taking up space to protect high value assets like artillery or tanks from deep strikers or assault units. 

8th edition is very good to conscripts, who can now bunch together nice and tight without worrying about blasts, and also will get their 5+ save from most small arms. Even if you add a unit to your army just for fun, it’ll be a good unit that will soak a lot of firepower while sending out a lot of lasgun love.
Overall: highly competitive
 
Militarum Tempestus Scions 
I love this unit.  Stormtroopers have ranged between bad and “niche” for four five straight editions, and now, they finally got them right.  Everything about them in the context of 8th edition works, and outside of being criminally undercosted (and, I suppose the sins of plasma more generally), they are a wonderful example of fluff meeting crunch in game design.  Scions start as veterans, gaining BS3+, but also gain a 4+ save, and trade the plebian lasgun for the regrettably named hot shot lasgun.  This marvel of technology (which is incredibly difficult to maintain in the field, hence its rarity) has AP-2.  On a basic weapon.  This means that light infantry get no save, while space marines in cover only get a 4+.  It’s still only S3, but here’s the other kicker: it gets doubled with FRF!SRF!  On the downside, it’s only range 18”, meaning it can’t double tap outside of 9” 

Speaking of being within 9”, Scions have the ability to Aerial Drop, which is their version of the new deep strike: at the end of any movement phase, they can deploy anywhere more than 9” from enemy units.  If you’re thinking this allows them to land and light up targets of priority, then welcome aboard!  As hinted at above, the 9” range means no flamers, no Hotshot double tap, no double dice for meltas.  That pretty much leaves plasma, the volley gun, and melta guns base.  The clear generalist winner is the plasma gun.  When overcharged, a plasma gun does more damage than a long range melta (but less than when in half range), and can also shoot normally.  With Damage 2, overcharged plasma is ideal for multiwound units.  You won’t go wrong spamming them, and only them.  Volley guns, unfortunately, have a longer range but are heavy, meaning they are less effective for drop troops.  Long range meltas are still pretty effective, especially when mixed with plasma, as many opponents will wipe out the plasma squads first. 

The cool thing about scions in 8th is that they can take four specials if 10 men, which I recommend.  4+ save troopers are now a lot more durable, and with the ability to freely drop into cover, they are really hard to shift with shooting.  Even in assault, they can always fall back and use “get back in the fight!” to shoot again.  Now, be careful about armies with large, dedicated assault units that can multicharge and wipe out multiple scion squads… especially since commissars can’t drop with them.  (Note: check FW for elysian commissars).  OTOH… if there’s a big assault squad, shoot it first!  Or, if in a transport, that’s a squad that not crashing into your main gunline.  One of the ridiculous thing about scions is how stupidly cheap they are.  A mere 124 points buys you 10 men with four plasma guns.  Sure, you’ll want a Tempestor Prime, but buying two squads and a prime gets you an awful lot of firepower for under 300 points. 
 
Overall: Highly Competitive.

Dedicated Transports
The last time I wrote one of these, this section was a single model, but we are now blessed with three different transports, all of which fit very slightly different niches. One of the biggest mistakes a player in 8th edition could make is to try to run these models, especially the Chimera, the same way they did from 3rd-7th editions. The game has changed around these models, and GW did not really adjust their points to reflect those changes. That said, we have some pretty nice options for battle taxis now, while the days of static pillboxes are long behind us.

Chimera
To understand what's wrong, and more importantly what's right, about the current Chimera, you need to understand a bit about it's past. It was famous for having a surprisingly durable front armor, with weak and long flanks, as well as the ability to allow squads inside to shoot out. It also had a rather nifty rule that allowed an embarked officer to give orders to squads not embarked in a transport. Because of this, squads in chimeras tended to stay embarked, until they disgorged to fire at full effect, while command squads (RIP) stayed embarked as long as possible to dish out orders while staying relatively safe. Now, no models can fire from inside, officers aren't bundled with command squads, and an officer can how be quite safe hiding behind an infantry squad, making orders much more flexible and available. Also, for much of it's life, the multilaser was a yeoman's weapon, doing some work while being cheap.

In the modern world, none of that is true. Much has been said about how vehicles are supposed to be more durable now, and while questionable for things like the LRBT, the basic Chimera is now a tough little bastard, even at close range or in assault. It has one less toughness and two fewer wounds than an LRBT, making only slightly less vulnerable to dedicated anti-tank weapons. With T7 and a 3+ save, it can now shrug a lot of the mid strength fire power that used to eat it up (hell, assault cannons used to regularly one shot chimeras from the side with hot rolls, something that is now mathematically impossible. So, don't try to bunker down with them, get in the mix!
Adding to this is the loss of firepower. The Multi-laser is probably the worst heavy weapon in the IG arsenal. It is objectively worse than even the heavy bolter against anything but painfully specific targets (T5/6 models with poor or invulnerable saves), and yet is somehow two points more. The multilaser is only available on three platforms, all of whom seem overcosted. They could have made the gun 5pts, and it would have been fine! That leaves two choices for weapons: heavy bolters, or heavy flamers. Bolters are cheaper, and dual loaded with them a chimera can tun you only 91pts, which for the record is just about 19 points more than Rhino. (for which, you get the same mobility and durability, better but less accurate shooting, room for two more models, and, oddly, a slightly more generous degradation chart) I compare these two models because the double HB Chimera is basically our Rhino, except it can move a full squad plus a support character or two. The other option is double heavy flamer, which while scarier, is admittedly shorter range. However... the chimera can move 10", and shot 8" more. That's a decent threat range, and as discussed, this is a model that wants to move. Four turns of moving and firing double heavy bolters yields 8 S5, AP1 hits, which is only one more than a double heavy flamer Chimera that shoots one time! It's admittedly spendier, breaking the triple digit mark at 109pts, but it's firepower moves from incidental to significant.

One of the biggest mental hurdles for players of prior editions (myself included) is to look at that, and lament how much a half dozen would cost. That ignores the fact that you shouldn't be using that many. Chimeras aren't the only way to move squads, we have excellent deep strikers and the Move!Move!Move! order, as well as genuinely good indirect fire artillery. The Chimera should focus on doing what those choices cannot, which is delivering either meltas or flamers to their target, preferably with a bit of close combat punch. Don't forget, you can put two characters in there, which can include an astropath for cheap fortify/smite. Avoid the multilaser, use them sparingly, and they'll do right for you, but if they're not moving, you're spending a lot of points on harder to kill heavy weapon squad.
Finally, the chimera can, and should, be charging. A good tactic is to send the chimera in first to soak the overwatch, allowing your more fragile gaurdsmen to charge in unmolested. You can also charge while fully loaded, to gain extra movement. you can disembark while engaged, as long as the squad has room, so don't charge ork mobs or anything big, but charging an enemy transport to block it could be fun. Also, you can charge light static shooting squads, either while full or empty.
Overall: Competitive

Taurox
The poor Taurox, which nobody wanted, made it clear that the IG were never going to get the model they really wanted: a cheap, no frills, transport. Think Ork Trukk. It's been on nearly every IG players wishlist for over a decade, and instead, we got the Taurox, which suffers from a nasty case of Skornergy. It's a quick, relatively light transport, which comes bundled with two long range, surprisingly expensive heavy weapons. It's statline says it wants to move fast and close in, but it's weapons want to flank and fire. It's also not cheap, running only six points less than the double HB chimera, while losing a point of toughness and two transport slots. It also, somewhat oddly, does not have smoke launchers!

I wish there was some hidden power to this poor guy. It's staggering that when every other model got a price break from a twinlinked weapon to twin weapons, the taurox instead got two autocannons at full retail. Even the exterminator gets it's lousy cannon at a discount. Not only are autocannons long range and heavy, they're not that great. They're also readily available on plenty of platforms, making this a model that wants to move, but then loses it's ability to actually use it's pricey firepower. I'm not sold on it's firepower, so in the end, it's a few points cheaper for a hit to durability, and I like the option to add characters.
Overall: Semi-competitive

Taurox Prime
Only five more points bumps you up to BS3+ and a more interesting array of weapons choices. The drawback is that it can only carry Militarum Tempestus or Officio Prefectus models, but since Scions are stupid good, I'm not too worried about the loss. The Prime can take the autocannons, or it can take two hot shot volley guns, and perfectly fine weapon that's otherwise only available to scions. They don't like it because it's a heavy weapon on a squad that is almost always moving, and competes with the plasma gun. Here, it's half the cost of the Autocannon for four shots at S4 and AP2, giving it a great range of ideal targets. It also must take a turret weapon, which is a mixed bag as well. The Taurox missile Launcher is literally a twin missile Launcher, but instead of a discount, pays a 10 point premium over two missile tubes on their own. The Taurox Battle Cannon loses a point of Strength and AP off the original, while costing more (on an admittedly cheaper hull). The Gatling gun, however, is a mere 18 points for 20 bolter shots. By process of elimination, that leaves a Prime with double hotshots and the Gatling gun for 96 points, or less than a double heavy flamer chimera. This is a legitimately decent unit in terms of firepower, and if you could put basic infantry in them, it'd be the only transport I used. The Prime is good enough, and Scions are cheap enough, that a full scion squad with flamers in one of these is a nice package that can tear up light to medium infantry. It's a lot more fragile than a tank, but it hits hard and accurately, and can work either as a transport or as a light fire support vehicle.
Overall: Competitive.

excellent write ups! looking forward to Heavy Support, you should totally skip ahead

Great write up - troops are the heart of the army!

I forgot that we had to pay for hotshot lasguns! I don't know why they weren't costed as zero, seeing as how they can't be taken as upgrades.

Finally, the chimera can, and should, be charging. A good tactic is to send the chimera in first to soak the overwatch, allowing your more fragile gaurdsmen to charge in unmolested

What do you mean? The rules say a target unit can fire overwatch once for each unit that charges it?

 argonak wrote:

Finally, the chimera can, and should, be charging. A good tactic is to send the chimera in first to soak the overwatch, allowing your more fragile gaurdsmen to charge in unmolested

What do you mean? The rules say a target unit can fire overwatch once for each unit that charges it?

Not if it's already in combat.

 vipoid wrote:

 argonak wrote:

Finally, the chimera can, and should, be charging. A good tactic is to send the chimera in first to soak the overwatch, allowing your more fragile gaurdsmen to charge in unmolested

What do you mean? The rules say a target unit can fire overwatch once for each unit that charges it?

Not if it's already in combat.

Oh I see. We were playing that all charges were declared first, then you did all the moves. Oops. Only got two games in so far. Thanks for the correction.

Minor additions to the Infantry Squad entry to consider:

Sergeants can get Bolters for a point, which seems to me a great option if you don't buy the plasma pistol instead. Having 10 long arms in an infantry squad feels right for the Guard. Also, while Infantry Squads are not as efficient defensively as Conscripts, and they don't take orders as efficiently, they do have some advantages. If you're looking at the role of area control/bubble wrap, 4 almost naked (bolters for sgts) Infantry Squads is slightly more than 50 conscripts (164 pts vs 150 points). The Conscripts are defensively more efficient, and offensively more efficient when goven orders in ideal situations, but the Infantry Squads gain hugely in flexibility. You can use one squad to protect the others from assault, so only a fraction of your force has to withdraw, while the other squads are fighting at full strength.

I like your thinking, thats why im only taking 1 conscript squad and making the rest all normal squads.

Once commissars/priests get assassinated the conscripts are really weak, poor leadership etc... I think running 3-5 commanders and 3-5 commissars is the way to go for infantry hoard guard imho - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/731549.page#9471943

Guardsmen benefit from having a Commissar around, but Conscripts absolutely -need- one.

Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

Are you doing forge world units also for the unit reviews?

Also, Taurox primes should really be upgraded to highly competitive if you use the gatling gun. It's actually kind of ridiculous how efficient they are. Even if they move, they make Wyverns look bad by comparison


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
Sacrilege I know but right now it seems there is only benefits and no cons to running a guard list with a gsc detachment. But right now the genestealers at 10ppm are brutal and easy to field along side guard.

Oh they're absolutely the best assault unit in the game right now. And the patriarch gives some good anti-psyker..it's actually brutal. I came from the other side of it where I said "well I think this is sacrilege but my genestealers need some fire support, hello AM"

I'm only fielding 1 conscript squad in a line across the battlefield to prevent deepstrike chargeing/ genesteelers

U02dah4 wrote:
I'm only fielding 1 conscript squad in a line across the battlefield to prevent deepstrike chargeing/ genesteelers

Yep that is 100% necessary now.

 Naix wrote:
I forgot that we had to pay for hotshot lasguns! I don't know why they weren't costed as zero, seeing as how they can't be taken as upgrades.

So when you equip Scions with melta or plasma you don't lose, as happened in the past, the points spent for the hot-shot.
This is a very nice thing from the designer's part.

Really well done write-up.
When this Astra Mil "primer" is done, a printed copy may go into the Index (for now).
Yeah, I kept using Scions for deep-strike assassins but they are even nastier now.

Yes, plasma is really looking good.
Luckily, I was building up all I could plasma around 7th so it will not be wasted.

Very good job.
Yes, wall of text.
But, I... read... every... word.

Oh, I have a question regarding Scions: do you think there's any value in running them as 5-man squads instead of 10-man squads?

 vipoid wrote:
Oh, I have a question regarding Scions: do you think there's any value in running them as 5-man squads instead of 10-man squads?

Opinion of a random: Well, it helps divide up enemy fire as well as help in preventing unwanted loses to failed morale tests. And it's great for going after objectives or stalling another unit if you tie them up in a charge (if you're really brave or desperate).

If your not playing kill points always MSU.

If your playing kill points I would still MSU because it gives you a greater density of special weapons but there is more of a tradeoff

U02dah4 wrote:
If your not playing kill points always MSU.

If your playing kill points I would still MSU because it gives you a greater density of special weapons but there is more of a tradeoff

With Scions you still get two special weapons per five models whether you take them in 2x5 man squads or 1x10. And since everything can split fire, there's really little incentive to split them up from your firing's point of view as well as your opponent's. If anything, they're actually more durable together, at least for the guys you care about.

You also get one more hotshot lasgun if you do 10 man, whereas you have one more sarge if you do two five man, so that should factor into the decision. Given that the sweet spot is 9", getting one more plasma shot from an extra pistol is nice, but so is the extra shots from that FRFSRFed hotshot.


And actually, until you posted that, causing me to play devil's advocate, I was thinking the MSU route was the way to go singularly. Now I have to reconsider.

1x10 also gives you better order economy. You can do 1 Prime per 20 Scions, as opposed to 1 Prime per 10 to keep complete order coverage.

And long as I'm tacking on extra justifications, you can deploy faster that way so you MIGHT not actually go second. Maybe. If you're real lucky.

 daedalus wrote:
With Scions you still get two special weapons per five models whether you take them in 2x5 man squads or 1x10. And since everything can split fire, there's really little incentive to split them up from your firing's point of view as well as your opponent's. If anything, they're actually more durable together, at least for the guys you care about.

I'm actually thinking the opposite - that smaller squads are better. They're more vulnerable in the sense that there are fewer normal dudes before your special weapons. At the same time, they're far less vulnerable to morale and also more easily overkilled (causing your opponent to waste firepower). What's more, whilst a large squad can split fire, it can't be in 2 places at once. I'd rather have 2 squads and have the option to split them up, should it prove advantageous.

 daedalus wrote:

You also get one more hotshot lasgun if you do 10 man, whereas you have one more sarge if you do two five man, so that should factor into the decision. Given that the sweet spot is 9", getting one more plasma shot from an extra pistol is nice, but so is the extra shots from that FRFSRFed hotshot.

Honestly, I much prefer the extra pistol shot, but each to his own.

 daedalus wrote:

1x10 also gives you better order economy. You can do 1 Prime per 20 Scions, as opposed to 1 Prime per 10 to keep complete order coverage.

Yeah, that is a good reason - especially with Primes being pretty costly (although each one you take gives you access to a valuable command squad, so there's that at least). At the same time, 5-man squads are probably going to be less reliant on orders in the first place.

 daedalus wrote:
And long as I'm tacking on extra justifications, you can deploy faster that way so you MIGHT not actually go second. Maybe. If you're real lucky.

I just accept that if I'm playing IG, I'm going second.