First Grand Tournament Winning Lists and It's Not What We Expected

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**Audustum**

No hordes, guardsmen or scions to be seen:

1st Place was an almost pure flyer list:

Tim Travers 1st Overall Boise Cup GT 2017

Flyer Wing Detachment
Stormraven = Twin Assault Cannon • Twin Multi-Melta • 2 Stormtrike Missle Launchers • Hurricane Bolters
Stormraven = Twin-Linked Assault Cannon • Twin-Linked Multi-Melta • 2 Stormtrike Missle Launchers • Hurricane Bolters
Stormraven = Twin-Linked Assault Cannon • Twin-Linked Multi-Melta • 2 Stormtrike Missle Launchers • Hurricane Bolters
Flyer Wing Detachment
Stormhawk Interceptor = 2 Assault Cannons • Skyhammer Millile Launcher • Icarus Storm Cannon
Stormhawk Interceptor = 2 Assault Cannons • Skyhammer Millile Launcher • Icarus Storm Cannon
Stormraven = Twin-Linked Lascannon • Twin-Linked Multi-Melta • 2 Stormtrike Missle Launchers • Hurricane Bolters

Patrol Detachment
Captain with Jump Pack
• Storm Shield • Relic Blade
Tactical Squad x 6 = 126 • Heavy Flamer • Powerfist • Combi-Flamer

2nd place was Ynnari-Harlequins:

Battalion Detachment
Yvraine = Gaze of Ynnead • Word of the Phoenix
Troupe Master = Harlequin's Caress • Fusion Pistol
Shadowseer = Shuriken Pistol • Hallucinogen Grenade Launcher • Mist Stave • Mirror Minds
Harlequin Troupe x 5 = 5 Harlequin's Caress • 2 Fusion Pistol
Harlequin Troupe x 5 = 5 Harlequin's Caress • 2 Fusion Pistol
Harlequin Troupe x 5 = 5 Harlequin's Caress • 2 Fusion Pistol
Harlequin Troupe x 5 = 5 Harlequin's Caress • 2 Fusion Pistol
Hemlock Wraithfighter = 2 Heavy D-Scyth
Hemlock Wraithfighter = 2 Heavy D-Scyth
Dedi Trans Starweaver = 99 • 2 Shuriken Cannons
Dedi Trans Starweaver = 2 Shuriken Cannons
Dedi Trans Starweaver = 2 Shuriken Cannons

Patrol Detachment
Shadowseer = Shuriken Pistol • Hallucinogen Grenade Launcher • Mist Stave • Fog of Dreams
Dedi Trans Starweaver = 2 Shuriken Cannons

3rd place Guilliman and a bunch of Tacticals/Razorbacks:

Battalion Detachment
Roboute Guilliman
Captain Sicarius
Culexus Assassin
Tarctical Space Marine Squad x 5 = Combi-Flamer • Power Axe • Multi-Melta
Tarctical Space Marine Squad x 5 = Combi-Flamer • Power Axe • Multi-Melta
Tarctical Space Marine Squad x 5 = Combi-Flamer • Power Axe • Grav-Cannon
Tactical Marine Squad x 5 = Combi-Flamer • Power Axe • Missile Launcher
Tactical Marine Squad x 5 = Power Axe • Missile Launcher
Razorback = Twin-Linked Assault Cannon • Hunter Killer Missile • Storm Bolter
Razorback = Twin-Linked Assault Cannon • Hunter Killer Missile • Storm Bolter
Razorback = Twin-Linked Assault Cannon • Hunter Killer Missile • Storm Bolter
Predator = Twin-Linked Lascannon • 2 Lascannon Sponsons
Predator = Twin-Linked Lascannon • 2 Lascannon Sponsons

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/06/26/results-8th-edition-gt/

Kind of interesting to look at. The Space Marine list in 3rd was definitely not something I was expecting. Harlequins might be as strong as some of the play testers were saying too. Really surprised a heavy flyer list did so well though.

**Purifier**

That flyer list looks so interesting. I'd love to have seen some games.

**Pain4Pleasure**

Where are the threads complaining about things like that flyer wing? I see lots about my conscripts that didn't even place, but none about the lists that actually did. Huh.

**Purifier**

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Where are the threads complaining about things like that flyer wing? I see lots about my conscripts that didn't even place, but none about the lists that actually did. Huh.

Jesus man, results have been up for minutes. Given the results you may just see some people making lists like it and then you'll see the outcry when people have to try and face it. Unless this guy was just stinking good at playing it, and no one else manages. Then the outcry will not come.

It's so tiring how this whole forum is just one huge mess of people feeling personally assaulted on behalf of their army while trying to point fingers at everything else.

**ross-128**

It definitely looks like an important consideration for a TAC list will be to have a decent number of models with either native 3+ to hit (so that they can still at least get 4+ against flyers) or the anti-air rule. One or two flyers can be dealt with with volume of fire, but a flying circus can be real trouble if you're not prepared.

**Gunzhard**

There's literally not 1 unit from the Blood Angels section of the Index in that "Blood Angels" list.

**Audustum**

Gunzhard wrote:
There's literally not 1 unit from the Blood Angels section of the Index in that "Blood Angels" list.

I noticed that. I think he just wanted the 6+ FNP that comes with being a Blood Angel.

**Xenomancers**

This is a garbage tournament.

**3orangewhips**

Gunzhard wrote:
There's literally not 1 unit from the Blood Angels section of the Index in that "Blood Angels" list.

Red wonz win GT's?

**ross-128**

I wonder if there's anywhere we can get more detailed results though, since getting the full results and comparing them with the aggregated data from smaller tournaments might be more informative than just the top 3.

**Purifier**

Gunzhard wrote:
There's literally not 1 unit from the Blood Angels section of the Index in that "Blood Angels" list.

I mean yeah, he is clearly playing "Space Marines" but it's not like he gets nothing from picking them as Bloodies.

**Audustum**

Purifier wrote:
That flyer list looks so interesting. I'd love to have seen some games.

I'm trying to imagine how the flyer list plays in my head. I think I'm starting to get it...maybe.

**casvalremdeikun**

Audustum wrote:
Gunzhard wrote:
There's literally not 1 unit from the Blood Angels section of the Index in that "Blood Angels" list.

I noticed that. I think he just wanted the 6+ FNP that comes with being a Blood Angel.

That is only on Death Company. He wanted the lone Heavy Flamer in the Tactical Squad. That is the only thing from the Blood Angels section whatsoever.

**Audustum**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Gunzhard wrote:
There's literally not 1 unit from the Blood Angels section of the Index in that "Blood Angels" list.

I noticed that. I think he just wanted the 6+ FNP that comes with being a Blood Angel.
That is only on Death Company. He wanted the lone Heavy Flamer in the Tactical Squad. That is the only thing from the Blood Angels section whatsoever.

Oh, I thought Black Rage was an army-wide special rule now with the way it was formatted in the index. Well, there goes that theory.

**Brotherjanus**

I assume that squad and captain get dropped off by one of the ravens? I don't see the point to those 7 guys. One backfield objective maybe?

**Asmodas**

Brotherjanus wrote:
I assume that squad and captain get dropped off by one of the ravens? I don't see the point to those 7 guys. One backfield objective maybe?

He probably just needed an HQ for his warlord to make the army legal.

**Karhedron**

Audustum wrote:

Kind of interesting to look at. The Space Marine list in 3rd was definitely not something I was expecting. Harlequins might be as strong as some of the play testers were saying too. Really surprised a heavy flyer list did so well though.

The Razorback spam I was expecting, the other 2 lists are more of a surprise. Remember the meta is only just over a week old (officially) and it will take time for people to get used to the new system and work out viable strategies and counters.

**Purifier**

Karhedron wrote:
Audustum wrote:

Kind of interesting to look at. The Space Marine list in 3rd was definitely not something I was expecting. Harlequins might be as strong as some of the play testers were saying too. Really surprised a heavy flyer list did so well though.

The Razorback spam I was expecting, the other 2 lists are more of a surprise. Remember the meta is only just over a week old (officially) and it will take time for people to get used to the new system and work out viable strategies and counters.

Indeed. If anyone happened to bring two Onagers with an Icarus Array each for whatever reason, I honestly believe his list would have been toast. If Aerial dominance lists like this become standard, they'll be instantly countered with stuff like that.

**Dionysodorus**

I don't understand what's surprising about this.

I think everyone realized very quickly that Guilliman and Razorbacks were really good. People have been saying that Harlequins work really well. Flyers are generally very good and people have been pretty big on the Stormraven since we first saw the index.

And of course this is one tournament, with only 38 players who were just whoever decided to register and show up, and not very many repeated factions. It's just silly to try to take this as strong evidence that something or other is broken or not broken.

**Insectum7**

Gunzhard wrote:
There's literally not 1 unit from the Blood Angels section of the Index in that "Blood Angels" list.

*stoner hippie voice* Blood Angels are like, mostly just like other chapters, man. . .

**MechaEmperor7000**

Dionysodorus wrote:
I don't understand what's surprising about this.

I think everyone realized very quickly that Guilliman and Razorbacks were really good. People have been saying that Harlequins work really well. Flyers are generally very good and people have been pretty big on the Stormraven since we first saw the index.

And of course this is one tournament, with only 38 players who were just whoever decided to register and show up, and not very many repeated factions. It's just silly to try to take this as strong evidence that something or other is broken or not broken.

It's because the majority of the vocal minority here generally has kneejerk reactions to their old lists not being viable anymore despite only playing a game once in a blue moon (although they would like you to think otherwise).

Most of the people not really surprised by this generally don't come on here crying the skies are falling.

**koooaei**

Flamers are best AA weapons. Also, what were the missions? I fail to see how flyers can win anything maelstorm.

**Xenomancers**

We saw a pure flyer spam list -
Just wait until you see a conscript spam list.

**Pain4Pleasure**

Xenomancers wrote:
We saw a pure flyer spam list -
Just wait until you see a conscript spam list.

And when we see it, it won't be nearly as big a deal as that flyer spam! I mean, they honestly should cost MORE. At least 100 points more per model. Also, fliers should be sevearly limited to 2 total per army regardless of what type of battalions or what not are taken.

**Marmatag**

It's one tournament. We don't know what was there. I highly doubt a list full of fliers will be viable in the long run.

**PUFNSTUF**

That Ynnari-Harlequins list is very close to one I posted a while back. Minus a hemlock and ynarri replacecd with a wraithknight. Interesting they went the ynarri route with soulburst instead of rising cresendo. I had thought cresendo was stronger.

**Grimgold**

I wouldn't read too much into this, he was one relic mission away from not being in the winners circle. Plus they weren't using the ITC guidelines for determining first turn, so his flyer spam lists was almost always going first, and that much firepower made for a helluva alpha strike. It basically shows exactly why ITC made the decision they did with both going first and kill points.

**Marmatag**

Grimgold wrote:
I wouldn't read too much into this, he was one relic mission away from not being in the winners circle. Plus they weren't using the ITC guidelines for determining first turn, so his flyer spam lists was almost always going first, and that much firepower made for a helluva alpha strike. It basically shows exactly why ITC made the decision they did with both going first and kill points.

Odds of going first in ITC placement rules, assuming reroll on a tie result: ~68%. If ITC lets you attempt a single seize, that drops to roughly 57%.

Odds of going first in RAW placement rules, assuming opponent attempt to seize & uses CP reroll: ~69%

So effectively 6/10 vs 7/10 is the difference between ITC and RAW. ITC's rule is totally superfluous and overblown.

**sfshilo**

koooaei wrote:
Flamers are best AA weapons. Also, what were the missions? I fail to see how flyers can win anything maelstorm.

This meme needs to die....you have to get like 5 inches from a flyer to hit it with a flamer. Anyone with a flyer letting people get that close deserved to lose it.

**Grimgold**

Marmatag wrote:
Grimgold wrote:
I wouldn't read too much into this, he was one relic mission away from not being in the winners circle. Plus they weren't using the ITC guidelines for determining first turn, so his flyer spam lists was almost always going first, and that much firepower made for a helluva alpha strike. It basically shows exactly why ITC made the decision they did with both going first and kill points.

Odds of going first in ITC placement rules, assuming reroll on a tie result: ~68%. If ITC lets you attempt a single seize, that drops to roughly 57%.

Odds of going first in RAW placement rules, assuming opponent attempt to seize & uses CP reroll: ~69%

So effectively 6/10 vs 7/10 is the difference between ITC and RAW. ITC's rule is totally superfluous and overblown.

So 57% vs. 70%, the chance of going first in all of 4 games is 10% vs 24%, so it's a much larger difference than you give it credit for. Also the CP for reroll seize is still debatable as RAW or RAI. If it is RAW they might as well have a rule that says "Person who placed the last unit down loses a command point and can attempt to seize twice" because it's effectively just a straight up CP tax.