Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Greetings. Tau have been my first and only 40k love. I started to play when they were first introduced back in 2000(?). I quit before all the new stuff came (Vespids, Riptide, Flyers, Ghostkeel, Stormsurge). I really want to get back into it. And I have som friends who play really competitive. Where do I start?

For the greater good.

Drones will almost certainly be useful. In squads supporting your main army or as ablative wounds on suits while also offering great firepower for their cost. Gun Drones, Marker Drones, and a few shield drones for key units.

RIptides are just too expensive.

Other good units in 8th Commanders, Vespid, and Sunshark.

Right now it's a big toss up about competitive anything unless it's a clearly broken cheese build. Initial results put Tau 11th in faction power of all the factions so not bad slightly above average. However the early results are very skewed by people not taking drones and still trying to make monster mash lists which are all giant suit related and not taking drones or troops of any kind. Basically many Tau players are having problems adapting. So I can't definitely say anything else with much certainty. For all I know the other races cheese could be discovered and Tau might be terrible, or it could be the other way around. More than any other race Tau have changed so much it's hard to say where they will end up on the power scale.

 Gamgee wrote:
Drones will almost certainly be useful. In squads supporting your main army or as ablative wounds on suits while also offering great firepower for their cost. Gun Drones, Marker Drones, and a few shield drones for key units.

RIptides are just too expensive.

Other good units in 8th Commanders, Vespid, and Sunshark.

Right now it's a big toss up about competitive anything unless it's a clearly broken cheese build. Initial results put Tau 11th in faction power of all the factions so not bad slightly above average. However the early results are very skewed by people not taking drones and still trying to make monster mash lists which are all giant suit related and not taking drones or troops of any kind. Basically many Tau players are having problems adapting. So I can't definitely say anything else with much certainty. For all I know the other races cheese could be discovered and Tau might be terrible, or it could be the other way around. More than any other race Tau have changed so much it's hard to say where they will end up on the power scale.

Funny that you mention those units. I was thinking about picking up a couple of start collecting boxes, Kroot screens, a couple of bombers, two commanders and some Vespids.

I was almost tempted to copy my old list from 2000. From my memory: Ethereal, Firewarriors, Crisis suits, a couple of Broadsides, hammerhead and Kroot meatshield including Krootox, Pathfinders in Devilfish

Its a massive toss up right now because its way to fresh.

but as gamme said

so far big winner is quad fusion commander, and drones with various flavors of drone controllers.

i think phiranahs are still good

Ghostkeel Are good as are commanders (both kinds) and lots of drones

It's still early days and people are trying to feel out the various options, however, when you do the maths..... Lone Commanders definitely seem to be placing highly on the hi-priority list. I love T'au and have played them ever since they were first released. Allow me to throw some ideas into the pot.

Although many have been left a little salty with the increase in points for the humble XV8, I firmly believe that these (With Fire Warriors) are the go-to back-bone for any T'au army. From Casual through to competitive play. Coupled with the surgical might of a singular XV8 Commander make T'au a force to be reckoned with.

For 139 Points you can have a Commander with 4 Fusion Blasters. (You could decide to lose one of the FB's to give him a 4+ Inv which would obviously means less out-put of damage, or keep all 4 blasters and have a couple of Shield Drones with him, although that's a potentially easy kill point) Bare bones, dropping in from a manta and coupled with a singular Marker light you have 4 Strength 8, AP-4 hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's. At 9" you are also rolling 2D6 for Damage and picking the highest. That is devastating for high-value targets and with 2/3 or more perfectly viable in a 2000+ list. Interesting.

As for XV8's themselves, a team of three equipped with a total of 8 C.I.B's is going to put out 24, s7, Ap-1 shots. A Drone Controller taking up one of the hard-points on the Shas'vre means the the Drones nearby (Which will be essential in any T'au list going forward) will be hitting on 4's. Just a little over 300 points.

XV8's were the past, before the Tide came in. Now that the Tide's gone out, the XV8 is looking to be the future. (IMHO of course)

Oldmike wrote:
Ghostkeel Are good as are commanders (both kinds) and lots of drones

Wapon loadout on Ghostkeel?

Im in tge same boat as the OP. Got all the old stuff, nothing new.
....well I did get vespids and a sniper team before I stopped playing.

Back in the old days we Tau players had so many drones most preople didn't even build them all.
Now you want to bring the max.


To the OP: Competitive lists are very subjective in a game like 40k with so many various units. Some armies its all about what units you take, some itsmore about how you deploy and manouver.

For Tau I can already see the basic Fire warrior team isn't very good. Kroot are a much better option.

^ I'm not saying they aren't, but what makes you say that Kroot are better than Firewarriors?

I'm having great success with Breachers in Devilfish. I favor a very aggressive playstyle and am probably in the minority. I like to take 2-3 fusion commanders, alpha strike them with some crisis suits (or vespid) and blitz 4-5 devilfish of breachers up to meet and support them.

Breachers are the sleeper unit of the tau. 40 points gets you 10 str 5 ap -1 assault shots if you are conservative, and 10 str 6 ap -2 shots if you are super aggressive. Use Darkstrider to fall back and still shoot with them. It's crazy.

Bonus points, you use the devilfish to continuously alternate charges and fall backs on dangerous cc units or tanks keeping them tied up and from shooting (or at least charging if they have fly also).

Such a fun way to play the tau. Also I know this is sacrilegious, but I think marker lights are garbage, I don't take any in my army and have been doing just fine without them.

Tau get some great units this go around, but they play very very different than they did in 7th. I wish you luck in spreading the greater good!

I've actually advocated breachers from day one as well as a great unit, but few people back me up on that. They do need devilfish though as you say. I don't think they are as strong as some of the other options, but they are sitll really great and should not be overlooked in some lists. The opponent usually underestimates them, and if they don't it acts as a distraction for your hammer to strike the anvil.

I'think ML are very very heavily list dependant. If your bringing something with a 2+ to hit like longstrike or a Ta'unar or something they can basically make it have almost perfect accuracy since they reroll 1's, but it's diminishing returns the lower the base BS of the unit. I could definitely see experimenting with no ML or very minimal ones depending on list. Ml can also help alpha strike lists as well really make the most out of that first strike, but in a conventional Tau army their usefulness is a little less useful.

Wapon loadout on Ghostkeel?

Cyclic ion raker and dual fusions with an ATS and a TL would be my choice. The fusion collider still just isn't great, and if you're buying an expensive suit with 4 fusion blasters, it might as well be a Commander.

Breachers are fun units, for sure. I got lots of mileage out of them last edition, and I can see them still being quite useful. I'm a little less inclined to use Devilfish now that they don't have any ridiculous durability shenanigans to pull, but I'll give them a shot. I also see Breachers as an incredibly useful counter-charge unit. They're brutally effective per point at close range, so keeping them near priority targets will be quite helpful.

I'm not saying they aren't, but what makes you say that Kroot are better than Firewarriors?

I actually sort of figured the opposite was true. I see Kroot as extremely useful - perhaps indispensible - for preventing first-turn drop charges, but they aren't really worth a crap afterward. Fire Warriors pack quite a lot more offensive punch at a greater range.

Kroot Hounds do everything Kroot do but cheaper. No reason to take Kroot since they're guns are so meagre.

Im sitting on 4 metal krootoxs

anyone try them yet?

 Gamgee wrote:
Kroot Hounds do everything Kroot do but cheaper. No reason to take Kroot since they're guns are so meagre.

Well, that's just straight-up false.

Kroot guns allow kroot carnivores to attack in CC at S4.

Not that kroot hounds are useless or anything. Their -1 ap is really, really powerful, but they're only S3, and S4 is one of the primary strength break-points. They also have +1 leadership over hounds, and are better bodyguards for a shaper than a squad of hounds are (because the shaper has the same movement score as the carnivores. The hounds are a lot faster)

 Hollow wrote:

For 139 Points you can have a Commander with 4 Fusion Blasters.

Just a correction: it's 160 per Quad Fusion Commander

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Hollow wrote:

For 139 Points you can have a Commander with 4 Fusion Blasters.

Just a correction: it's 160 per Quad Fusion Commander

TBH, quad fusion commanders are a waste of points because they have no staying power.

For 30 points more you can get a 10 wound Ghostkeel with, effectively, 3-5 fusion blasters, more movement, and stealth systems. For 70 points more, you can tack on a 4+ invuln save without losing any firepower. For 80 points more you can add a target lock that will let him advance every turn he's not disengaging from CC, and ignore the -1 when firing all his weapons.

The only disadvantage is that the Ghostkeel isn't an HQ.

I am not a Tau player, but I really like fire warriors strike teams. backed up by a cadre fireblade they can put out a lot of str 5 shots at with a 21-inch threat range. Sing fireblade can support several units and the whole package is cheap.

Right but the ghostkeel has BS 4+ at base. Meaning it needs those extra shots. A commander will hit with 83% of his shots base no modifiers. So that means he will hit with 3-4 shots on average. The Ghostkeel with 5 shots only hits with 2.5. It does have more wounds and is a little faster, but as a pure dps platform it's far less cost effective. It's odds of hitting get even worse with moving and needs points invested in it to make it not take penalties to move and shoot which would mean even less shots are hitting.

The ghostkeel is an inferior cost effective platform. It then needs to be upgraded just to match it's non-moving bs. Also your counting on it's shield saving it true and it is tankier so I think your counting on it lasting a long time to shoot over time, but it's just not a critical lynch pin alpha strike unit. If a model needs to be deleted in one turn the ghostkeels terrible.

Actually I would much rather use the Keel with its raker for some good str 7 and burst cannons in mid field to harass and try stay alive.

 Gamgee wrote:
Right but the ghostkeel has BS 4+ at base. Meaning it needs those extra shots. A commander will hit with 83% of his shots base no modifiers. So that means he will hit with 3-4 shots on average. The Ghostkeel with 5 shots only hits with 2.5. It does have more wounds and is a little faster, but as a pure dps platform it's far less cost effective. It's odds of hitting get even worse with moving and needs points invested in it to make it not take penalties to move and shoot which would mean even less shots are hitting.

The ghostkeel is an inferior cost effective platform. It then needs to be upgraded just to match it's non-moving bs. Also your counting on it's shield saving it true and it is tankier so I think your counting on it lasting a long time to shoot over time, but it's just not a critical lynch pin alpha strike unit. If a model needs to be deleted in one turn the ghostkeels terrible.

Actually I would much rather use the Keel with its raker for some good str 7 and burst cannons in mid field to harass and try stay alive.

It's doesn't matter what the commander's BS is when he's dead.

The Ghostkeel gets the 3-5 shots in addition to the shield generator, and target lock, and stealth systems.

A 4 fusion blaster commander only has the fusion blasters. He's got no invuln save. He's got no stealth system. He's got 1/3rd reduced movement. He's only got 6 wounds and has to rely on his T5 and 3+ armor save to keep him alive.

He's lascannon bait. One good shot can possibly kill him with no save unless you spend 32 points and a fast attack slot, minimum, to pad his wounds stat with shield drones, which is a strat that's largely incompatible with a manta drop unless you limit yourself to the 2 drones the commander can take himself, and those are highly vulnerable to basic bolter fire since they're an independent squad now.

IMO, he's a waste of points unless you're going to hide him in a squad of crisis bodyguards or a crisis squad like you're supposed to, but the entire concept I'm responding to is a post pointing out that he's ~160 points by himself like he's actually going to get enough work done, on average, to justify that cost. Especially in 8th edition now that you can point your lascannon at the lone commander, and the rest of your squad at something else.

Drones drones drones. Good thing you get so many in Start Collecting. Max out your drone slots. Give up on First Blood, if you go second your opponent will get it.

I've been focusing on infantry, with suits and a Fish for support, and it's been going well so far.

For suits, I'm running 3 w dual fusion and TL, 3 w dual missiles and ATS, a commander w quad plasma, and a Missile-side. People are saying the missiles aren't worth it, but no one is really thinking about 36" range. That's a massive difference in effectiveness. An extra turn shooting them easily outweighs the extra shot or strength of the Cyclic Ion.

The infantry and drones do the serious work, taking objectives and doing most of the damage. The suits support them and deal with hard targets.

The Devilfish is invaluable: it greatly increases board control, and can ram or screen. Tau today depend on maneuver, tempo, and table control. Gunlines won't win anymore.

You're adding 30, 70 and 80p in this math. This adds another commander to the table.

8 FB shots at BS2+ are pretty good and will deal with most of your problems - repaying their cost many times (not even 350p)
An you can evne give him some shield drones to absorb said lascannons.

Adn you shouldn't forget people could simply target your stealth drones and remove one of the -1 to hit vs the Ghostkeel. Or simply ignore it. Noone can ignore 4 fusion on their backlines

 Arandmoor wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Right but the ghostkeel has BS 4+ at base. Meaning it needs those extra shots. A commander will hit with 83% of his shots base no modifiers. So that means he will hit with 3-4 shots on average. The Ghostkeel with 5 shots only hits with 2.5. It does have more wounds and is a little faster, but as a pure dps platform it's far less cost effective. It's odds of hitting get even worse with moving and needs points invested in it to make it not take penalties to move and shoot which would mean even less shots are hitting.

The ghostkeel is an inferior cost effective platform. It then needs to be upgraded just to match it's non-moving bs. Also your counting on it's shield saving it true and it is tankier so I think your counting on it lasting a long time to shoot over time, but it's just not a critical lynch pin alpha strike unit. If a model needs to be deleted in one turn the ghostkeels terrible.

Actually I would much rather use the Keel with its raker for some good str 7 and burst cannons in mid field to harass and try stay alive.

It's doesn't matter what the commander's BS is when he's dead.

The Ghostkeel gets the 3-5 shots in addition to the shield generator, and target lock, and stealth systems.

A 4 fusion blaster commander only has the fusion blasters. He's got no invuln save. He's got no stealth system. He's got 1/3rd reduced movement. He's only got 6 wounds and has to rely on his T5 and 3+ armor save to keep him alive.

He's lascannon bait. One good shot can possibly kill him with no save unless you spend 32 points and a fast attack slot, minimum, to pad his wounds stat with shield drones, which is a strat that's largely incompatible with a manta drop unless you limit yourself to the 2 drones the commander can take himself, and those are highly vulnerable to basic bolter fire since they're an independent squad now.

IMO, he's a waste of points unless you're going to hide him in a squad of crisis bodyguards or a crisis squad like you're supposed to, but the entire concept I'm responding to is a post pointing out that he's ~160 points by himself like he's actually going to get enough work done, on average, to justify that cost. Especially in 8th edition now that you can point your lascannon at the lone commander, and the rest of your squad at something else.

He is a character behind a whole bunch of other army so they need to take them out first. Also drones. Drones man.

Edit
Anyone not putting their drones behind the ghostkeel is funny since it just lets your opponents target them. In 7th it was the opposite wanted them in front.

 Arandmoor wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Right but the ghostkeel has BS 4+ at base. Meaning it needs those extra shots. A commander will hit with 83% of his shots base no modifiers. So that means he will hit with 3-4 shots on average. The Ghostkeel with 5 shots only hits with 2.5. It does have more wounds and is a little faster, but as a pure dps platform it's far less cost effective. It's odds of hitting get even worse with moving and needs points invested in it to make it not take penalties to move and shoot which would mean even less shots are hitting.

The ghostkeel is an inferior cost effective platform. It then needs to be upgraded just to match it's non-moving bs. Also your counting on it's shield saving it true and it is tankier so I think your counting on it lasting a long time to shoot over time, but it's just not a critical lynch pin alpha strike unit. If a model needs to be deleted in one turn the ghostkeels terrible.

Actually I would much rather use the Keel with its raker for some good str 7 and burst cannons in mid field to harass and try stay alive.

It's doesn't matter what the commander's BS is when he's dead.

The Ghostkeel gets the 3-5 shots in addition to the shield generator, and target lock, and stealth systems.

A 4 fusion blaster commander only has the fusion blasters. He's got no invuln save. He's got no stealth system. He's got 1/3rd reduced movement. He's only got 6 wounds and has to rely on his T5 and 3+ armor save to keep him alive.

He's lascannon bait. One good shot can possibly kill him with no save unless you spend 32 points and a fast attack slot, minimum, to pad his wounds stat with shield drones, which is a strat that's largely incompatible with a manta drop unless you limit yourself to the 2 drones the commander can take himself, and those are highly vulnerable to basic bolter fire since they're an independent squad now.

IMO, he's a waste of points unless you're going to hide him in a squad of crisis bodyguards or a crisis squad like you're supposed to, but the entire concept I'm responding to is a post pointing out that he's ~160 points by himself like he's actually going to get enough work done, on average, to justify that cost. Especially in 8th edition now that you can point your lascannon at the lone commander, and the rest of your squad at something else.

Stealth Systems doesn't really work if you're shooting a super short range weapon like the Fusion Blaster. Remember doesn't work within 12".

Commander is also a Character HQ, meaning you can't shoot at him at all until you pop off the 2 Drones he brings with him. Positioning won't really help avoid this because of Saviour Protocols.
Let's say you do shoot at the Commander, if you don't straight up kill him. He can hide in the army for the rest of the game, since he's a Character.

Finally Commander can Deep Strike to actually hit hidden targets deep in your opponents back row.
Ghostkeel has to basically walk over there

but you know what
Ghostkeel is a perfectly good choice. If you want to use Ghostkeel go ahead. No one is dissing or dismissing you for it.
They are just choices. Hell use both in a list.

Ghostkeels only lose their stealth when they go in the fusions half range not it's normal range. It's a big factor though.

I think I'm going to roll with 2 triple rocket pod commanders with advanced targeting system. They can hang back and monka your heavy hitters - for 2 turns. I'm thinking something like 3 boradsides 2 storm surges 2 commanders a ghostkeel and some pathfinders maybe a unit of breachers in a devilfish. The yrvana is also extremely powerful - though - I'm not sure it's better than a storm surge and they cost about the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pigasuspig wrote:
Drones drones drones. Good thing you get so many in Start Collecting. Max out your drone slots. Give up on First Blood, if you go second your opponent will get it.

I've been focusing on infantry, with suits and a Fish for support, and it's been going well so far.

For suits, I'm running 3 w dual fusion and TL, 3 w dual missiles and ATS, a commander w quad plasma, and a Missile-side. People are saying the missiles aren't worth it, but no one is really thinking about 36" range. That's a massive difference in effectiveness. An extra turn shooting them easily outweighs the extra shot or strength of the Cyclic Ion.

The infantry and drones do the serious work, taking objectives and doing most of the damage. The suits support them and deal with hard targets.

The Devilfish is invaluable: it greatly increases board control, and can ram or screen. Tau today depend on maneuver, tempo, and table control. Gunlines won't win anymore.

Gunlines can absolutely win. You need to have a few units that can move around but for the most part just grouping your stuff together for your deadly overwatch is more than enough to repel close combat units. Then - you aren't locked in combat anymore - just fall back and shoot them up.

 Irubius wrote:

Greetings. Tau have been my first and only 40k love. I started to play when they were first introduced back in 2000(?). I quit before all the new stuff came (Vespids, Riptide, Flyers, Ghostkeel, Stormsurge). I really want to get back into it. And I have som friends who play really competitive. Where do I start?

For the greater good.

It really depends on what you run just about Everything Tau has right now is pretty good if you know how to spin it.

Marker lights are still key. But you need to decide how deep you want to go. Do you want a light peppering or do you want to get the 3+ rerolling 1s option?

If you want a suit heavy list then you need extra durability in the form of sheild drones and Etherals using stone sense. Cover when you can. Your still the most mobile army just not the same way as before. Remember to plan your Fallbacks ahead of time. The models are durable and mobile, use that to your advantage and you should do well enough.

If you want to do a more Infantry based Army then you need to look at the different types of inventory and decide what you're going to go for or if you want a mix of all three of the standard troops choices and Pathfinders. Again you're going to want an ethereal this time to increase your Mobility. Fire blades are also good if you want a more gun line type Army. If you want to go pure Infantry you're going to want to bring special weapons in the Pathfinder squads. If you like the bigger suits then pick to your taste keep in mind the Riptide is slightly overpriced, but is still quite effective at what it does when properly equipped for a job. But you need to decide on a job for it to do.

The Ghost certainly has it's place, as with all T'au units this edition (which makes for great list building) As for the survivability of the quad fusion Commanders, you do have several options.

1. Attach a couple of drones. For 16 points you can attach a couple of gun drone buddies. Giving you an extra 8 S5 BS5 shots and essentially 2 extra wounds. Depending on how smart your opponent is with their shooting priority (and you are with deployment) you might be able to soak up a couple large damage shots.

2. Shield Drones, For 22 points you can substitute the additional dakka and give him two shield drones that do have a 4+ inv.

3. Make it 3 Fusion Blasters and give him a shield generator. That does give you a 4+ Invulnerable save.

4. Strategic deployment. As other have mentioned, the use of drones this edition is paramount. Rather than dropping in from the Manta first turn hold off until you are able to move drones into the area. If you are able to Drop your commander within 3" of them you can allocate wounds to them.

Granted, it's highly likely that a Quad fusion commander is going to be on the receiving end of a bleep ton of returning fire, however, that 2+/2+ BS combined with just a single ML means he should take down his points worth down with him at least. Having three of these suckers drop down behind enemy lines will cause all kinds of damage.

 Arandmoor wrote:
Kroot guns allow kroot carnivores to attack in CC at S4.

Not that kroot hounds are useless or anything. Their -1 ap is really, really powerful, but they're only S3, and S4 is one of the primary strength break-points. They also have +1 leadership over hounds, and are better bodyguards for a shaper than a squad of hounds are (because the shaper has the same movement score as the carnivores. The hounds are a lot faster)

2 S3 with -1AP is superior against 1 S4 with 0AP against lots of things. As it is against tac marines(or equiv) 1 kroot hound attack is equal to the kroot attack. Against T4 6+ save(among worst targets for S3 AP-1) kroot hound still trumps due to 2 attacks.

Against T6-T7 3+ like many vehicles kroot hound still trumps while after T8 kroot just weeps.

Come to think I'm out of ideas where S4 attack would be better than 2 S3 AP-1 attacks.

Basically you take kroot for stealthy hunter and shooting. For h2h kroot hound trumps without even factoring that hound is cheaper.

 Hollow wrote:
2. Shield Drones, For 22 points you can substitute the additional dakka and give him two shield drones that do have a 4+ inv.

MV4 Tactical Shield Drone with 4++ are 8 points
MV52 Shadowsun Shield Drone with 3++ are 11 points