Shadowsun died of old age? - 8th Edition Lore

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**A Town Called Malus**

Grey Templar wrote:
Ethereals have been stated to live much longer then other Tau, so that's not surprising. Their life expectancy is not given.

So now the only actual ages we have of anyone in the Tau codex is Puretide. He is described as elderly at the age of 80, and was still alive at the age of 94, albeit implied with help though it is not clear whether that was due to natural old age or the effects of his wounds or both. This was over 200 years before the third sphere expansion, during which time it is certainly not inconceivable that the Tau would have developed advanced technology to prolong their lifespan akin to what the Imperium has. We have some examples such as O'Vesa and Bravestorm in the Farsight enclaves, both of whom served alongside Farsight during the Damocles Gulf crusade and when he founded the Enclaves and were still members of the Eight.

**BrianDavion**

yet again I think it's proably a safe bet that Rejuvit treatments exist among the tau, for the same OOC reason they exist among humans in 40k. because given the time span of 40k, (a few hundred years give or take on eaither side) you wanna have major chars whom can live that long

**Melissia**

That's my impression, too, BrianDavion.

**BrianDavion**

Melissia wrote:
That's my impression, too, BrianDavion.

And as with the IoM it's proably an expensive treatment, one that the Tau reserve for their truly elite

**Ynneadwraith**

BrianDavion wrote:
yet again I think it's proably a safe bet that Rejuvit treatments exist among the tau, for the same OOC reason they exist among humans in 40k. because given the time span of 40k, (a few hundred years give or take on eaither side) you wanna have major chars whom can live that long

While there's no evidence that there aren't rejuvenation treatments, and it would make sense given the Tau's tech level, I do feel that the idea that all of their heroes are long-dead and are kept alive by a succession of proxies as a propaganda stunt. It fits my interpretation of the Tau perfectly, and it does a few neat things. Firstly, you can have these characters appear whenever you want going into the future without having to argue about lifespans. Secondly, it differentiates them from the Imperium somewhat so they feel more different. Lastly, it neatly bypasses the other issue with named characters which is that lots of people use them in battles happening at the same time in different places. That's easily sorted if there are actually multiple 'Shadowsuns', which is kept a state secret.

Just makes them seem more totalitarian and untrustworthy, which makes them fit better into the general grimdarkness of the 40k universe.

**The Grumpy Eldar**

It's space/time wibbly wobbly stuff. The whole timeline is messed up to the point no one really knew what year it was anymore. Since some parts/planets, etc, had time mover forwards way faster or wat slower than normal.

Can be that Tau were lucky and ended up with the slow time.

Anyway, we won't know till new fluff comes around the block.

**Ynneadwraith**

The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
It's space/time wibbly wobbly stuff. The whole timeline is messed up to the point no one really knew what year it was anymore. Since some parts/planets, etc, had time mover forwards way faster or wat slower than normal.

Can be that Tau were lucky and ended up with the slow time.

Anyway, we won't know till new fluff comes around the block.

TBH, in regular good-old Relativity that would happen anyway depending on how much gravity you're experiencing and how close to the speed of light you're travelling. No wonder they god stuff messed up, even without all the warp shenanigans bleeding into realspace (which must play havoc with time as well).

Having no real fixed date or timeline is a big improvement in my eyes. Canon-y people might be uncomfortable with their not being something solid like that to rest on, but to be honest it feels much more realistic in-universe and offers much more freedom of interpretation.

**changemod**

I was under the Impression the 40 figure was life expectancy of a fire warrior, not biological age.

**Chaos Legionnaire**

Maybe Shadowsun is kinda like the Dread Pirate Roberts.

**carldooley**

Ynneadwraith wrote:
Right, I think we have enough evidence to conclude that the 40yr Tau lifespan is bunk.

1. It's mentioned in the 1st ed. Tau Codex

really? I thought that they were released in 3rd. Can I get a link to the first edition codex? I like to have a copy of the older codexes for the armies that I play (and I don't have anything older than 3rd).

Spoiler:

do people not read through the entire thread before posting?
Personally, I agree. While lore says that farsight's blade is unique, there is nothing to say that there are daemonic blades that could approximate the effect. I mention this because there has always been fluff justification for multiple (same) named characters in the game; it isn't always a case of, "Where are the Eldar" when a unique character sees himself across the field of battle, but rather ones that are outfitted similarly.

**Ynneadwraith**

Sorry, I meant the first edition of the Tau Codex, rather than a Tau Codex released in 1st edition 40k.

**Nevelon**

On Vision:
From WD#261(US)

Index Xenos

“Their vision is believed to be slightly superior to humans, able to see further wavelengths in both the IR and UV ends of the spectrum. However, their lack of a dilatory pupil results in poorer depth perception and a slower focusing reflex”

No mention of age in the article.

**Asura Varuna**

I'm not entirely familiar with the new fluff, but couldn't the "Commander Shadowsun" just be a title. Perhaps the original Shadowsun is long dead but some other commander has taken her place. Perhaps even her tactical insight and abilities could be transferred to the next Shadowsun using an Engram Chip. Would be a cute way to pass on the accumulated knowledge of decorated commanders, or even potentially other influential individuals in other castes.

**Ynneadwraith**

Asura Varuna wrote:
I'm not entirely familiar with the new fluff, but couldn't the "Commander Shadowsun" just be a title. Perhaps the original Shadowsun is long dead but some other commander has taken her place. Perhaps even her tactical insight and abilities could be transferred to the next Shadowsun using an Engram Chip. Would be a cute way to pass on the accumulated knowledge of decorated commanders, or even potentially other influential individuals in other castes.

Neat idea

If you want to crank up the grimdark a bit you could have it so that all of these engram-chipped 'Shadowsuns' all believe that they are actually Shadowsun herself. Lots of potential for narrative there if one of them finds out the truth

**Iron_Captain**

Ynneadwraith wrote:
Asura Varuna wrote:
I'm not entirely familiar with the new fluff, but couldn't the "Commander Shadowsun" just be a title. Perhaps the original Shadowsun is long dead but some other commander has taken her place. Perhaps even her tactical insight and abilities could be transferred to the next Shadowsun using an Engram Chip. Would be a cute way to pass on the accumulated knowledge of decorated commanders, or even potentially other influential individuals in other castes.

Neat idea

If you want to crank up the grimdark a bit you could have it so that all of these engram-chipped 'Shadowsuns' all believe that they are actually Shadowsun herself. Lots of potential for narrative there if one of them finds out the truth

Ouch. That is a pretty neat grimdark idea. I like it.

**Ynneadwraith**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Ynneadwraith wrote:
Asura Varuna wrote:
I'm not entirely familiar with the new fluff, but couldn't the "Commander Shadowsun" just be a title. Perhaps the original Shadowsun is long dead but some other commander has taken her place. Perhaps even her tactical insight and abilities could be transferred to the next Shadowsun using an Engram Chip. Would be a cute way to pass on the accumulated knowledge of decorated commanders, or even potentially other influential individuals in other castes.

Neat idea

If you want to crank up the grimdark a bit you could have it so that all of these engram-chipped 'Shadowsuns' all believe that they are actually Shadowsun herself. Lots of potential for narrative there if one of them finds out the truth

Ouch. That is a pretty neat grimdark idea. I like it.

I'm here to serve

**the ancient**

In the novel Farsight, Crisis of Faith.
It says they mostly live about 40 yrs. With a few getting to 80 or 90.
What makes some live twice as long? Maybe they count cryo time,
maybe theyre Genetic Infantry chips. But knowing GW, the warp dun it.
Oh, one of them is home to a Tzeentchian daemon. How it happened its a bit of a joke.

**statu**

Personally I hope that there aren't multiple Shadowsuns, the idea of it seems too close to the way the Phoenix Lords of the Eldar have been described. Having essentially the same thing occurring in two races through slightly different means feels lazy

**Ynneadwraith**

statu wrote:
Personally I hope that there aren't multiple Shadowsuns, the idea of it seems too close to the way the Phoenix Lords of the Eldar have been described. Having essentially the same thing occurring in two races through slightly different means feels lazy

It's less similar and more interesting narratively if there are multiple Shadowsuns at the same time

**BrianDavion**

Ynneadwraith wrote:
statu wrote:
Personally I hope that there aren't multiple Shadowsuns, the idea of it seems too close to the way the Phoenix Lords of the Eldar have been described. Having essentially the same thing occurring in two races through slightly different means feels lazy

It's less similar and more interesting narratively if there are multiple Shadowsuns at the same time

right, it's less "dread pirate roberts" and more "green lantren corps"

**Ynneadwraith**

BrianDavion wrote:
Ynneadwraith wrote:
statu wrote:
Personally I hope that there aren't multiple Shadowsuns, the idea of it seems too close to the way the Phoenix Lords of the Eldar have been described. Having essentially the same thing occurring in two races through slightly different means feels lazy

It's less similar and more interesting narratively if there are multiple Shadowsuns at the same time

right, it's less "dread pirate roberts" and more "green lantren corps"

Precisely

except each Green Lantern is being tricked into believing they're the only and original Green Lantern by their supposedly benevolent totalitarian overlords, all in the name of 'The Greater Good' (see Hot Fuzz for how that's pronounced).

It's a neat idea anyway

**Nerak**

Iron_Captain wrote:

Further hints for their short lifespans can be found in their fast maturation ~10 years where Humans need about ~20 years and the really short time they spent sleeping (only a few hours per day), which is indicative of a much faster metabolism than Humans and therefore shorter lifespans.

Iirc the Tau body temperature is higher then humans. The Taus blue blood is often described as "very warm" in novels (first Cain book rings a bell). The higher body heat is related to their high metabolism, adding to the idea of their shorter life spann.

Quite the conspiracy theory we have here. I'm definetly no Tau expert but isn't "Shadowsun" a family name? Hence couldn't the suit be worn by her daughters or other close blood kin? Works pretty well with the caste system I think, to have the esteemed "Shadowsun" family.

**Ynneadwraith**

Nerak wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:

Further hints for their short lifespans can be found in their fast maturation ~10 years where Humans need about ~20 years and the really short time they spent sleeping (only a few hours per day), which is indicative of a much faster metabolism than Humans and therefore shorter lifespans.

Iirc the Tau body temperature is higher then humans. The Taus blue blood is often described as "very warm" in novels (first Cain book rings a bell). The higher body heat is related to their high metabolism, adding to the idea of their shorter life spann.

Quite the conspiracy theory we have here. I'm definetly no Tau expert but isn't "Shadowsun" a family name? Hence couldn't the suit be worn by her daughters or other close blood kin? Works pretty well with the caste system I think, to have the esteemed "Shadowsun" family.

Interesting point about the Tau's body temperature, which does suggest a shorter lifespan than humans.

Conspiracy theories are the best thing about the Tau

I'm not sure about the family thing. Aren't Tau infants taken into a central creche/kibbutz thing (and parents are only paired for mating) so there are no dedicated family units? Unless that's a relatively recent social structure, such that the pre-Ethereal practice of family names and descendants still survives despite the fact that there are no more families.

If the latter's the case then yeah that could work. Sort of like a lineage or bloodline recorded at the point of birth so they're chosen later. Think I prefer the Engram Chip thing though. Purposefully overwriting the minds of members of your population in order to feed the propaganda machine feels nice and grimdark

Ooh, another narrative idea. What if one of these Shadowsuns starts to remember fragments of who she was before she became yet another 'Shadowsun'?

Entirely a fan theory though, but one with merit

**Manchu**

Posted this on ATT back in (OMG) 2008 ...

I've read pretty deeply in to the Background posts (not so much of the Fiction ones yet) and, as a new member, I have to say that there is some top-notch discussion here. I also noticed that a couple of extremely interesting topics substantially overlap: the seemingly advanced ages of Farsight and Shadowsun, Tau physiology and biotechnology, and the sincerity of Tau ideology/propaganda. I wonder if a clue to all of this lies in Aun'Va's title: Master of the Undying Spirit.

Now, that's Undying Spirit rather than body. So does that mean that Aun'Va can transfer his consciousness through successive bodies? I know there has been some discussion of Tau cloning technology but I think that idea runs contrary to the spirit of the Greater Good. Tau'Va is not about individuals being subsumed into the whole (and I would disagree with Doombringer that the Tau form of government being despotic) but rather about the necessity of each individual's unique contribution to the whole. That is why no life is considered expendable in Tau thought. I find the label "collectivist" misleading in that respect. In any case, the idea of clones equipped with memory implants strikes me as un-Tau inasmuch as it devalues individuality. A clone, after all, is a different being than the one who supplied the genetic material from which it was grown. Simply overriding its own personality is treating it as an expendable life.

The clone idea can be easily dispensed with altogether. Perhaps Aun'Va was a great Ethereal who lived three thousand or so years back. He became so important that his death, at some greatly advanced but still reasonable age, would have disrupted Tau society. To perfectly fulfill his continuing role in the Tau'Va, this Ethereal would have to come up with some way for his presence to survive his death. To this end, the first Aun'Va founded a school thought. He began to train the most promising young Ethereals in philosophy, diplomacy, and ethics.

But only the greatest of his students were privy to the true end of his teachings: the Undying Spirit. By means of extensive mental training and physiological conditioning, the original Aun'Va was able to greatly extend his own lifespan. He passed these secrets on to his brightest pupils who would be able to live even longer lives, having received the teachings at younger ages. When the original Aun'Va passed on, his greatest disciple would seamlessly step into his place as the Master of the Undying Spirit. The process would be further streamlined thanks to memory implant technology. This succession would be the equivalent of an open secret among the higher ranks of the other Castes. "Of course that is not the original Aun'Va," they might comment "but in what significant way is that not Aun'Va?"

Tau society is known for its extreme dynamism. But while the material conditions of life (including their own genetic makeup) change for the Tau at a frantic pace, there is at least one constant pillar of Tau existence: the Greater Good. Indeed, the Tau are bound together as a species not by their biological identity (since the Castes are probably distinct sub-species at least) but rather by ideological conformity. Making sure that Tau society runs smoothly is thus essentially a matter of containing all the variables of a rapidly advancing society within the unchanging ideal of Tau'Va.

In so doing, the successive Aun'Vas would require some constancy of dedicated Tau'Va leadership among the other Castes. A very few members of each other Castes would therefore receive the greatest of privileges in being initiated as disciples of the Undying Spirit. They would learn the spiritual techniques of life-preservation and be permitted to undergo the various therapies that stave off physical aging. They would not be allowed to transfer their memories, however, into successors.

These great leaders would guide Tau society in each of their Castes throughout their centuries-long lifespans: legendary diplomats, sky admirals, master builders, and supreme military commanders. Their individual personalities would reflect the needs of the era as well as the temperament of the particular Aun'Va who selected them for the honor. Tensions would of course arise between the chosen disciples of the former and current Aun'Va. Sometimes these tensions, in combination with other factors, could lead to conflict. The selection of a disciple from the Fire Caste would be a particularly sensitive matter.

I think that could explain a lot about Farsight and Shadowsun, especially inasmuch as they were both disciples of Puretide. I don't know if there is any canonical link between Farsight and Aun'va, however.

**john27**

I think that shadowsun found an artefact during a campaign on some mysterious and backwater world, maybe an amulet or necklace that extends her life, possibly of eldar origin, from the days of the empire, made by some long forgotten eldar blacksmith or something, nearing the end of their long life, but wanting to live longer or something like that

**pm713**

john27 wrote:
I think that shadowsun found an artefact during a campaign on some mysterious and backwater world, maybe an amulet or necklace that extends her life, possibly of eldar origin, from the days of the empire, made by some long forgotten eldar blacksmith or something, nearing the end of their long life, but wanting to live longer or something like that

Be kind of boring just copying Farsight's thing.

**Melissia**

Ynneadwraith wrote:
Asura Varuna wrote:
I'm not entirely familiar with the new fluff, but couldn't the "Commander Shadowsun" just be a title. Perhaps the original Shadowsun is long dead but some other commander has taken her place. Perhaps even her tactical insight and abilities could be transferred to the next Shadowsun using an Engram Chip. Would be a cute way to pass on the accumulated knowledge of decorated commanders, or even potentially other influential individuals in other castes.

Neat idea

If you want to crank up the grimdark a bit you could have it so that all of these engram-chipped 'Shadowsuns' all believe that they are actually Shadowsun herself. Lots of potential for narrative there if one of them finds out the truth

I love it!

**Anemone**

I don't quite get the confusion, it is almost certainly just rejuvenation technology.

Bravestorm has already been kept alive, and functional, as long as Farsight simply through an advanced Life Support technology system produced in the Tau Empire, and with the rate of the Tau development of technology they've almost certainly created improved versions of it by now.

Just because the Tau lifespan, or rough lifespan, was given at a point doesn't mean it remains that through several centuries. As with most developing technologies, and considering how rapidly the Tau develop, the average life expectancy for the Tau is no doubt consistently climbing, and someone as valuable as Shadowsun will have access to the very highest forms of these.

I don't really think its at all surprising for Shadowsun to live this long if both Bravestorm and O'vesa have done it too.

**BrianDavion**

Anemone wrote:
I don't quite get the confusion, it is almost certainly just rejuvenation technology.

Bravestorm has already been kept alive, and functional, as long as Farsight simply through an advanced Life Support technology system produced in the Tau Empire, and with the rate of the Tau development of technology they've almost certainly created improved versions of it by now.

Just because the Tau lifespan, or rough lifespan, was given at a point doesn't mean it remains that through several centuries. As with most developing technologies, and considering how rapidly the Tau develop, the average life expectancy for the Tau is no doubt consistently climbing, and someone as valuable as Shadowsun will have access to the very highest forms of these.

I don't really think its at all surprising for Shadowsun to live this long if both Bravestorm and O'vesa have done it too.

I doubt the lifespan is climbing as fast as you might think, high end medical techniques are invariable expensive, requirng resources, doctors etc. the Tau likely...... prioritize medical treatment based on value to society. if you're not partiuclarly talented, and anyone can do what you do, why waste resources on you. the greater good would require saving the resources for those rare exceptional individuals, not the masses whom are simply cogs in the "Tau machine"

**Iron_Captain**

Anemone wrote:
I don't quite get the confusion, it is almost certainly just rejuvenation technology.

Bravestorm has already been kept alive, and functional, as long as Farsight simply through an advanced Life Support technology system produced in the Tau Empire, and with the rate of the Tau development of technology they've almost certainly created improved versions of it by now.

Just because the Tau lifespan, or rough lifespan, was given at a point doesn't mean it remains that through several centuries. As with most developing technologies, and considering how rapidly the Tau develop, the average life expectancy for the Tau is no doubt consistently climbing, and someone as valuable as Shadowsun will have access to the very highest forms of these.

I don't really think its at all surprising for Shadowsun to live this long if both Bravestorm and O'vesa have done it too.

As established in the fluff, rejuvenation technology can't prolong one's life eternally. ~200 years, while exceptional, seems to be possible. I don't think we have seen examples of anything beyond that in the fluff.
Realistically, all Tau characters from 7th should be dead now. We will see whether GW goes with that and introduces new characters, or if they will come up with some handwavery. With the rate that the Tau have been developing at, either there must have been massive changes by the time of 8th edition or their rate of development has stagnated to almost 0. I look forward to their new codex and finding out about it.

As to the chip idea, there certainly is precedent for it in Tau fluff: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Puretide_Engram_Neurochip