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This occurred to me after thinking about the recent starcannon nerf.

At 30pts a weapon, I thought it was a bit steep, but then having a fixed 3 damage is pretty damn good. However, it's been knocked down to D3 now and points remained the same.
Same issue with the harlequin's kiss...14ppm compared to the embrace at 6ppm with the latter have Ap-3 over the kiss Ap-1 (same strength). The kiss has the possibility of D3 wounds though, so it almost seems that you are paying for the maximum damage of the weapon, rather than the average roll over a game.

Not sure I agree with that philosophy.

It was severely undercosted before, given the platforms that could take it. At least, in my view. The wave serpent is crazy good.

undercosted at 30 points compared to a brightlance at 20 points? I find that odd, and I have yet to see it feature in any Aeldari list (save for the occasional WK) in the Army List forum. Most serpents are rocking twin shuriken cannons or brightlances.

Doesn't explain the harlequin kiss though.

Oh. Brightlance is also undercosted. Yikes.

Martel732 wrote:
Oh. Brightlance is also undercosted. Yikes.

compared to?

lascannon..25pts S9 Ap-3 D6 damage
brightlance 20pts S8 Ap-4 D6 damage

3's to wound seems more valuable then allowing a 6 save on some models

 bullyboy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh. Brightlance is also undercosted. Yikes.

compared to?

lascannon..25pts S9 Ap-3 D6 damage
brightlance 20pts S8 Ap-4 D6 damage

3's to wound seems more valuable then allowing a 6 save on some models

I wish people would stop saying stuff like this, you can know EXACTLY how valuable it is with very little effort.

.667*.5*3.5= 1.167; .667*.667*.8333*3.5= 1.29; 1.29/1.167= 11% better against a 3+ T8 target.

However a brightlance is 20%ish better against a T7 or lower 3+ save model, which is much more common.

ERJAK wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh. Brightlance is also undercosted. Yikes.

compared to?

lascannon..25pts S9 Ap-3 D6 damage
brightlance 20pts S8 Ap-4 D6 damage

3's to wound seems more valuable then allowing a 6 save on some models

I wish people would stop saying stuff like this, you can know EXACTLY how valuable it is with very little effort.

.667*.5*3.5= 1.167; .667*.667*.8333*3.5= 1.29; 1.29/1.167= 11% better against a 3+ T8 target.

However a brightlance is 20%ish better against a T7 or lower 3+ save model, which is much more common.

Ooh Ooh, do the math for the reduced range!

The irrelevant reduced range. 36" is infinity on an Eldar model 7th ed showed this.

It's absurd that the WS has the shield AND 13 W.

Martel732 wrote:
The irrelevant reduced range. 36" is infinity on an Eldar model 7th ed showed this.

It's absurd that the WS has the shield AND 13 W.

Don't forget that moving reduces ballistic skill. Stationary Heavy Weapons are happy Heavy Weapons. 48" is a near guarantee of never having to move if you set up right. 36" much less so.

And I don't think Imperial Players can complain about the Wave Serpent when a Razorback can pack 12 S6 shots.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The irrelevant reduced range. 36" is infinity on an Eldar model 7th ed showed this.

It's absurd that the WS has the shield AND 13 W.

Don't forget that moving reduces ballistic skill. Stationary Heavy Weapons are happy Heavy Weapons. 48" is a near guarantee of never having to move if you set up right. 36" much less so.

And I don't think Imperial Players can complain about the Wave Serpent when a Razorback can pack 12 S6 shots.

Can we complain about both? Or the fact tanks are all way overcosted compared to gun toting transports...

Yeah, transports are in this weird half-way point where they're not as punishingly expensive as tanks, yet still quite tough, and if they are gun platforms they're just reaping all the benefits at once.

Are tanks the new Terminators of vehicles?

 bullyboy wrote:
This occurred to me after thinking about the recent starcannon nerf.

At 30pts a weapon, I thought it was a bit steep, but then having a fixed 3 damage is pretty damn good. However, it's been knocked down to D3 now and points remained the same.
Same issue with the harlequin's kiss...14ppm compared to the embrace at 6ppm with the latter have Ap-3 over the kiss Ap-1 (same strength). The kiss has the possibility of D3 wounds though, so it almost seems that you are paying for the maximum damage of the weapon, rather than the average roll over a game.

Not sure I agree with that philosophy.

I'd like to give input on your topic, but unfortunately i'm too busy with ripping of Starcannons off my Falcons, Vypers and War Walkers and glueing them to Dire Avenger models, because their price-performance is probably still better than Avenger Catapults. *click*click*click*

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The irrelevant reduced range. 36" is infinity on an Eldar model 7th ed showed this.

It's absurd that the WS has the shield AND 13 W.

Don't forget that moving reduces ballistic skill. Stationary Heavy Weapons are happy Heavy Weapons. 48" is a near guarantee of never having to move if you set up right. 36" much less so.

And I don't think Imperial Players can complain about the Wave Serpent when a Razorback can pack 12 S6 shots.

Wave serpents get an upgrade to remove that penalty. The serpent has a shield and 3 more wounds than the razorback. 12 S6 shots doesn't get you as far as you think, especially vs hard targets. Wave Serpents nuke down very expensive targets, the assault cannon is mostly good vs punks.

 Insectum7 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh. Brightlance is also undercosted. Yikes.

compared to?

lascannon..25pts S9 Ap-3 D6 damage
brightlance 20pts S8 Ap-4 D6 damage

3's to wound seems more valuable then allowing a 6 save on some models

I wish people would stop saying stuff like this, you can know EXACTLY how valuable it is with very little effort.

.667*.5*3.5= 1.167; .667*.667*.8333*3.5= 1.29; 1.29/1.167= 11% better against a 3+ T8 target.

However a brightlance is 20%ish better against a T7 or lower 3+ save model, which is much more common.

Ooh Ooh, do the math for the reduced range!

K 36/48= Brightlance has 75% of the range of the Lascannon. I know that SEEMS like magic to you but I'm confident even you could manage it.

How often is 36" any different than 48"? Almost never.

Martel732 wrote:
How often is 36" any different than 48"? Almost never.

Especially if its on a mobile platform. Which they usually are.

Eh, I'd say there is definitely an argument for a 48" weapon over a 36". If the 36" weapon needs to move to get into range - it suffers the above mentioned penalty for movement. If anything the -4 save modifier is the best advantage.

Multiple damage weapons priced at their max output?

No.

The previous Starcannon was much better than a Lascannon in multiple areas.

Now it is worse, but it is worse by less than it was better. It looks like a tweak to 27 points would be a good cost, but 3 points is hardly breaking the bank.

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The irrelevant reduced range. 36" is infinity on an Eldar model 7th ed showed this.

It's absurd that the WS has the shield AND 13 W.

Don't forget that moving reduces ballistic skill. Stationary Heavy Weapons are happy Heavy Weapons. 48" is a near guarantee of never having to move if you set up right. 36" much less so.

And I don't think Imperial Players can complain about the Wave Serpent when a Razorback can pack 12 S6 shots.

Wave serpents get an upgrade to remove that penalty. The serpent has a shield and 3 more wounds than the razorback. 12 S6 shots doesn't get you as far as you think, especially vs hard targets. Wave Serpents nuke down very expensive targets, the assault cannon is mostly good vs punks.

But only when targeting the nearest unit, which with Brightlances and Starcannons is not always the unit you want to be shooting at, though it's good for Scatterlasers. And that shield only reduces the damage by 1. It's also now 162pts with Twin Shurican Catapult (vertually useless at 12" range), Twin Bightlance and CTM.

 bullyboy wrote:
This occurred to me after thinking about the recent starcannon nerf.

At 30pts a weapon, I thought it was a bit steep, but then having a fixed 3 damage is pretty damn good. However, it's been knocked down to D3 now and points remained the same.
Same issue with the harlequin's kiss...14ppm compared to the embrace at 6ppm with the latter have Ap-3 over the kiss Ap-1 (same strength). The kiss has the possibility of D3 wounds though, so it almost seems that you are paying for the maximum damage of the weapon, rather than the average roll over a game.

Not sure I agree with that philosophy.

How about the polar opposite? Every weapon is free because they can fail to wound? By this reasoning, may we return to the era of Ion Accelerators being a 5 point upgrade?

ERJAK wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh. Brightlance is also undercosted. Yikes.

compared to?

lascannon..25pts S9 Ap-3 D6 damage
brightlance 20pts S8 Ap-4 D6 damage

3's to wound seems more valuable then allowing a 6 save on some models

I wish people would stop saying stuff like this, you can know EXACTLY how valuable it is with very little effort.

.667*.5*3.5= 1.167; .667*.667*.8333*3.5= 1.29; 1.29/1.167= 11% better against a 3+ T8 target.

However a brightlance is 20%ish better against a T7 or lower 3+ save model, which is much more common.

Ooh Ooh, do the math for the reduced range!

K 36/48= Brightlance has 75% of the range of the Lascannon. I know that SEEMS like magic to you but I'm confident even you could manage it.

In context with vulnerability to return fire, requirements for movement, and reduction of BS thereof.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:


Wave serpents get an upgrade to remove that penalty. The serpent has a shield and 3 more wounds than the razorback. 12 S6 shots doesn't get you as far as you think, especially vs hard targets. Wave Serpents nuke down very expensive targets, the assault cannon is mostly good vs punks.

Wave serpents arent the only units that can take them though, the points for Bright Lances are shared with War Walkers, Guardians, Wraithlords, etc.

If Wave Serpents are "nuking" expensive targets with Bright Lances, you can do the same with Lascannons (from further away) I don't see the big deal.

I can turn off almost every lascannon platform by charging it with gaunts or scouts. Eldar weapons can't be silenced short of wrecking the tank. Fly is an incredible key word of heavy weapon platforms.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Imateria wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The irrelevant reduced range. 36" is infinity on an Eldar model 7th ed showed this.

It's absurd that the WS has the shield AND 13 W.

Don't forget that moving reduces ballistic skill. Stationary Heavy Weapons are happy Heavy Weapons. 48" is a near guarantee of never having to move if you set up right. 36" much less so.

And I don't think Imperial Players can complain about the Wave Serpent when a Razorback can pack 12 S6 shots.

Wave serpents get an upgrade to remove that penalty. The serpent has a shield and 3 more wounds than the razorback. 12 S6 shots doesn't get you as far as you think, especially vs hard targets. Wave Serpents nuke down very expensive targets, the assault cannon is mostly good vs punks.

But only when targeting the nearest unit, which with Brightlances and Starcannons is not always the unit you want to be shooting at, though it's good for Scatterlasers. And that shield only reduces the damage by 1. It's also now 162pts with Twin Shurican Catapult (vertually useless at 12" range), Twin Bightlance and CTM.

GIven how many 2 damamge and D3 damage weapons I have in my list, that shield is ridonkulous.

Martel732 wrote:
I can turn off almost every lascannon platform by charging it with gaunts or scouts. Eldar weapons can't be silenced short of wrecking the tank. Fly is an incredible key word of heavy weapon platforms.

Hormagaunts have a 48" charge range? Scouts can pass over enemy models to engage the tanks beyond? Who knew?!? I wonder why people are so upset at conscript screens then...

I can turn off Wave Serpents with Lascannons from 48" away. :p

Martel732 wrote:
GIven how many 2 damamge and D3 damage weapons I have in my list, that shield is ridonkulous.

What are you doing not fielding Lascannons?

I can turn off Wave Serpents with Lascannons from 48" away. :p

Anytime I see something like this I wonder how many people are actually fielding LoS blocking terrain.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I can turn off Wave Serpents with Lascannons from 48" away. :p

Anytime I see something like this I wonder how many people are actually fielding LoS blocking terrain.

We use some, for sure. But the Falcon Chassis is a hard thing to hide. (And I can field a LOT of Lascannons).

And to be honest, most tournament tables I see use less terrain than we usually do.

on the topic of things being costed for max dmg. I think ork weapons got costed assuming max dmg and that they would always hit! (gak is ridiculous, footslogging boys got buffed the rest of the codex is mostly garbage still)

on the lascannon vs bright lance that 12" is certainly useful as is the mobility and durability of the chasis

the fairest comparison would be a razorback w/ twin lascannon vs twin birght lances on the wave serpant.

wave serpant can take an underslung shuri cannon and why would you not so without further upgrades 159 points T7 13 wounds and reduces incoming hits a 1 dmg with a 3+ save is pretty awesome

razorback T7 10 wounds 3+ save, storm bolter I would also always take as can be shot at different targets 117 points

honestly the razorback is slightly over costed by comparison, though when you look at the assault cannon razorback w/ stormbolter for 102 the razorback I would say is slightly mroe points effective.

it is almost like it is hard to balance a game unit for unit and weapons option to weapons option.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I can turn off almost every lascannon platform by charging it with gaunts or scouts. Eldar weapons can't be silenced short of wrecking the tank. Fly is an incredible key word of heavy weapon platforms.

Hormagaunts have a 48" charge range? Scouts can pass over enemy models to engage the tanks beyond? Who knew?!? I wonder why people are so upset at conscript screens then...

I can turn off Wave Serpents with Lascannons from 48" away. :p

Martel732 wrote:
GIven how many 2 damamge and D3 damage weapons I have in my list, that shield is ridonkulous.

What are you doing not fielding Lascannons?

D6-1 is considerably less impressive than D6. And no, I'm not fielding that many lascannons. I don't think trying to outshoot Eldar is a good plan.

Martel732 wrote:
GIven how many 2 damamge and D3 damage weapons I have in my list, that shield is ridonkulous.

. . .

D6-1 is considerably less impressive than D6.

If youre comparing 13 plasma successes to 5 lascannon successes, the choice seems pretty clear.

I'm not a huge fan of plasma in 8th, either. I guess its cheap. The bottom line is that the wave serpent is way too cheap for the base vehicle.

 Insectum7 wrote:
And to be honest, most tournament tables I see use less terrain than we usually do.

This is my biggest problem in tournaments. It's like they're all having fights out in a barren wasteland with a single two wall ruin. There are so many easy and quick ways to make canyons or concrete blocks on Forge Worlds or something.