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 Actinium wrote:
I never changed my stance on the rule? I still very specifically think you can not take a full strength unit and then an understrength unit of that same thing, because you clearly have the available models in that case to make multiple legal strength units.

I have a Scion squad. It has 10 dudes in it. 4 of them have special weapons. I also have 3 other scions. I want to field them as a separate unit, but you won't let me, because I have a 10 man squad, yes?

But if I do two five man squads, then I still have 3 dudes left, and you would let me field them in terms of 5 man squad, 5 man squad, 3 man squad? That kind of seems a little uptight, to be honest.

 daedalus wrote:

 Actinium wrote:
I never changed my stance on the rule? I still very specifically think you can not take a full strength unit and then an understrength unit of that same thing, because you clearly have the available models in that case to make multiple legal strength units.

I have a Scion squad. It has 10 dudes in it. 4 of them have special weapons. I also have 3 other scions. I want to field them as a separate unit, but you won't let me, because I have a 10 man squad, yes?

But if I do two five man squads, then I still have 3 dudes left, and you would let me field them in terms of 5 man squad, 5 man squad, 3 man squad? That kind of seems a little uptight, to be honest.

My interpretation is no, you would need to field them as a 2 units between 5-8 models each if you wanted to use all your models. Essentially if you have at least 1 minimum squad of a unit, you can no longer use the USU rule to form a new unit. This only really runs into issues where units have a fixed unit size.

Breng77 wrote:

My interpretation is no, you would need to field them as a 2 units between 5-8 models each if you wanted to use all your models. Essentially if you have at least 1 minimum squad of a unit, you can no longer use the USU rule to form a new unit. This only really runs into issues where units have a fixed unit size.

But the last three guys happen to be another Tempestor and two plasma guns. fielding them in either of the first two squads wouldn't be legal at 5-8 models.

Then you would be unable to field those models. Your initial list did not specify.

If you had a legal 10 man unit with 4 special weapons, 2 more specials and an extra tempestor

You can field a 5 man unit with 2 specials, and a 6 man unit with 2 specials (extra tempestor), meaning you have 2 special weapons you cannot field. Alternatively if you don't already have a command squad you can field 4 specials in a command squad, and 5 regulars, 2 specials and a tempestor in a squad of 8, leaving only an extra tempestor. Who you could field as a prime, to make the command squad legal.

Breng77 wrote:
Then you would be unable to field those models.

And that's where the breakdown happens. There's nothing in the rules indicating that.

 daedalus wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Then you would be unable to field those models.

And that's where the breakdown happens. There's nothing in the rules indicating that.

Sure there is "...you can take one unit of that type." if you have a minimum unit, you have one unit of that type in your army.

"Sometimes you cannot field a minimum unit..." if you have fielded a minimum unit you fail the first check.

Breng77 wrote:

Sure there is "...you can take one unit of that type." if you have a minimum unit, you have one unit of that type in your army.

"Sometimes you cannot field a minimum unit..." if you have fielded a minimum unit you fail the first check.

Uh, I can field more than one minimum sized unit. Pretty easily. I can keep fielding minimum sized units until I no longer have enough models to field minimum sized units anymore, and then the next time I do it, I cannot field a minimum sized unit. Unless you're suggesting that you cannot field more than one minimum sized unit?

So now I'm fielding three minimum sized scion units. Uh oh, I don't have the models to field the third minimum size unit. I had enough for the other two, but I don't have enough for THIS unit. I might even say that 'there is "a minimum-sized unit" that I don't "have enough models to field"', right? Sounds fine there.

So, in that case, I'm going to include ONE unit of that type "in my army with as many models as I have available." Seems reasonable.

 daedalus wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Sure there is "...you can take one unit of that type." if you have a minimum unit, you have one unit of that type in your army.

"Sometimes you cannot field a minimum unit..." if you have fielded a minimum unit you fail the first check.

Uh, I can field more than one minimum sized unit. Pretty easily. I can keep fielding minimum sized units until I no longer have enough models to field minimum sized units anymore, and then the next time I do it, I cannot field a minimum sized unit. Unless you're suggesting that you cannot field more than one minimum sized unit?

So now I'm fielding three minimum sized scion units. Uh oh, I don't have the models to field the third minimum size unit. I had enough for the other two, but I don't have enough for THIS unit. I might even say that 'there is "a minimum-sized unit" that I don't "have enough models to field"', right? Sounds fine there.

So, in that case, I'm going to include ONE unit of that type "in my army with as many models as I have available." Seems reasonable.

The rule says "Each units datasheet will describe how many models make up that unit. Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum-sized unit; if this is the case you can still include one unit of that type in your army with as many models as you have available."

So yes you can include more than one minimum sized unit, but once you have at least one minimum sized unit you can no longer say that you do not have enough models to field a minimum sized unit, because you already are fielding one.

But even going with your interpretation that it is based on not having enough models to field any particular minimum sized unit, you would still have included more than one unit of that type. So if you field 1 minimum Scion squad, a US unit would be a second scion squad, so you would have more than one unit of that type in your army. How if you already have 2 Units of that type, are you only including one? It doesn't say "you may include one under strength unit of that type, it says you may include one.

Breng77 wrote:

But even going with your interpretation that it is based on not having enough models to field any particular minimum sized unit, you would still have included more than one unit of that type. So if you field 1 minimum Scion squad, a US unit would be a second scion squad, so you would have more than one unit of that type in your army. How if you already have 2 Units of that type, are you only including one? It doesn't say "you may include one under strength unit of that type, it says you may include one.

"I have three scion squads, and only enough models for two full squads. No, unfortunately, I do not have enough models to field a minimum sized unit. So I am going to include one unit of the Scion type in my army with as many models as I have available. Those other ten guys aren't available, because they're already in squads."

It is a list building rule. Your models don't become unavailable to you because you want them to already be a squad, you're still in the process of building the list and your units aren't set in stone yet, you can still be adding models and gear options or splitting a unit apart to accommodate your model count to make legal units. The rule only applies to when you have less models of that type total in your whole army than can form a minimum strength unit.

At least when you're talking about basic models, it does get complicated when you start talking about models with optional stuff on it that really really needs an faq for so many reasons.

Both sides of the normal sized unit + USU have presented it enough that it can be seen both ways, depending on how you want to read the RAW. It does need further clarification.

My hunch is IF they have to further clarify, and when they normally have to do so, lt will be to take the ability to use USU away completely.

The big fix for most of this is to make Sarg/Exarchs ONLY available to min size units or larger.
Make it a requirement to have x number of models in the unit before you take wargear upgradesl
Defender Guardians= need 10 troops to take heavy weapon
Storm Guardians= no such limit.
If I take a USU of 2 defender guardians, no support platform allowed by RAW
If I take a USU of 2 storm guardians, both can be fitted with Fusion guns.

In one case very minor impact, in the later quite a bit moreso

But GW since 2nd ed have put limits on some units just like this and STILL lets other units pick and choose with no limits.

You would think they would learn

Don't abuse rules. What exactly constitutes abuse is arguable, but if the person doing it calls it abuse it is if they do it.

I know: don't abuse it.

The new FAQ pretty much keeps abuse away from this topic now

Its a great fix and I think most will find it a nice balance!

Yes, definitely, means the people who genuinely need to use the rule still can, only at a minor disadvantage, but it isn't open to abuse