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I'm going to have to disagree about the Chaos Cultists. I run two squads of 22-ish, and they take some real time to chew through. It's also not a pricey way to sneak some flamers in.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
a stompa... 977 points is absolutely obsurd compared to imperial knights

PODS

Cultist only seem bad because Imperial Guards are much better and cheaper.

But I'm pretty sure that after Codex drop and you can't mix Imperial Guard with Normal Space Marines without losing sinergies, faction stratagems, etc... but you can field Cultists and Chaos Space Marines together, that situation will be corrected.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
First, on the Splitting Horrors topic: I think that you should only be able to take Pink Horrors in your initial list, and that they should cost like 14 ppm or something with free splits into blues and brims as appropriate. You only get the little horrors when Pinks die rather than being able to take just a unit of Brims for 20 pts. To me, that is cheesier than splitting Horrors, that you can spam stupidly cheap and durable Brims instead of having to take the bigger ones.

This is similar to my ideas posted here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730757.page
I'd be ok with Pink and/or Blues as viable options to begin the unit, with Brims only seeing the table if Blues die
I'd be happy if we all took the Split Horror discussion here.

-

 ForceChoke wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
a stompa... 977 points is absolutely obsurd compared to imperial knights

PODS

What are you talking about? I assume you're talking about Drop Pods, and they seem, to me, pretty decent.

Reaver Jet Bikes, went from being the best unit in the codex to arguably the worst, doubled in price but without Skilled Rider's old 3+ cover save are actually more fragile even with the 2 wounds and 4+ armour save. No real improvement in their shooting and their close combat ability has dropped like a stone, there is literally nothing they can do that half a dozen other unit sin the index can't already do better, and in many cases for cheaper as well.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
a stompa... 977 points is absolutely obsurd compared to imperial knights

PODS

What are you talking about? I assume you're talking about Drop Pods, and they seem, to me, pretty decent.

Well I disagree the 9" rule and the point cost. Why take pods when you get razorback spam. Pods being Nerfed shelved my whole army.

it's okay to disagree

 Lorek wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree about the Chaos Cultists. I run two squads of 22-ish, and they take some real time to chew through. It's also not a pricey way to sneak some flamers in.

And an absolute godsend against the deep striking nightmare units out there.

 ForceChoke wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
a stompa... 977 points is absolutely obsurd compared to imperial knights

PODS

What are you talking about? I assume you're talking about Drop Pods, and they seem, to me, pretty decent.

Well I disagree the 9" rule and the point cost. Why take pods when you get razorback spam. Pods being Nerfed shelved my whole army.

it's okay to disagree

Not a fan of what they did to pods.

~ triple the price
They now come in when you want them and don’t scatter. Except you already got half of them turn one and they had the guidence to mitigate scatter anyway. Even with a bad scatter roll, you were still in meta/flamer range after you disembarked. So while a buff, it’s a minor one.

Need to drop 9” away. Ouch. No more drop flamers. But the kicker is the troops getting out also need to be 9” away, and as they arrive at the end of the movement phase, you can’t get any closer. OK I guess for non-melta, non-flamer shooting units that can’t deepstrike on their own. I say shooting units, because most marine assault units can natively DS, so aren’t getting anything out of the pod.

They can only hold infantry. No dreads, no cents, no terminators/jump packs/primaris. Just basic guys

I get that pods were a little cheep for what they did. And that’s when people were paying points for them. But this is a little too hard of a nerf.

I still might take one with my sternguard, or if I want to take a footslogging character like cassius or sicarius. But the day of the drop pod is over.

The rest of it I understand-- the "9 inches away" thing is a standardized thing they're doing now and it does make things simpler since IIRC every unit that can deep strike or have other special deployments have that rule.

But I do agree that the price is out of whack and the limitation on units that can use it is bad-- a slight increase would easily have been justified, but triple is overdoing it. And it both screwed some armies over and renders some very fluffy armies illegal to be unable to drop pod dreads.

For eldar the worst unit has to be Dire Avenger. At 17ppm they are absurdly over priced for what they do. Less T, Save, and a comparable gun to a marine and more expensive. Ya overwatch on 5 is nice but most of these will be killed before you even get a chance to charge them. The exarch upgrades are nigh useless. Guardians arnt that great either so it pretty much shoehorns me into taking all the detachments that dont require troops.

 Imateria wrote:
Reaver Jet Bikes, went from being the best unit in the codex to arguably the worst, doubled in price but without Skilled Rider's old 3+ cover save are actually more fragile even with the 2 wounds and 4+ armour save. No real improvement in their shooting and their close combat ability has dropped like a stone, there is literally nothing they can do that half a dozen other unit sin the index can't already do better, and in many cases for cheaper as well.

Sadly I have to agree.

For Harlequin: the Death Jester. Pretty low firepower, no melee weapons. His abilities (pick the model that flees from moral in the unit he attacked, and targetting characters) are pretty meh and don't justify the cost.

 koooaei wrote:
Grots - 3 pts for s2 t2 ld4. When you can have 6 pts boyz with a free nob, mob rule, and all the great stuff

They are a buffer/utility unit. They do a lot of good in this edition esp when buffed. When you roll up against an assaulty opponent they will buffer you from being charged. They can also be used to take the overwatch so other units don't need to.

Runtherd - cause of grots

It's a cheap character that actually has a decent weapons, decently tough. Actually pretty good for the points.

3 types of big meks after the faq - They're pretty expensive and now can't really cover all that much with clarifications to "entirely within". Can still be used in walker lists, i guess, but why not just take an extra walker instead?

There's dozens and dozens of useful builds on them, some offensive, some buff, some are a mixture, plus they repair stuff. Big mek on a warbike with two komba skorchas is a funny combo.

Burna bomber - all ork flyers are quite mediocre but the burna bomber does exactly what a blitza bomber does but worse.

Still not useless

2 types of painboyz - cause if you REALLY want to field a painboy to supplement your amazing wierdboys you take Grotsnik

Grotsnik is a 1 only, special character

3 types of buggies - cause koptas are better

Except, two are wartrakks, only one is a buggy. Koptas are 4W, buggies are 5W and trakks are 6W. Koptas aren't better per se. Koptas are more fragile and cost more points.

I cant be bothered responding to the rest of your post...

pismakron wrote:

Painboys on a bike is a great thing, and Big meks still rocks.

Not sure why you need a biker painboy - he's 100+ pts. If you're running a painboy to supplement your forces, you're better off just taking more of those forces. If you're running him to heal up your wierdboyz and still supplement your forces, you're better off with Grotsnik as he's a painboy with 5+ fnp, warboss damage output, 4+ armor for just a couple points more than a regular painboy. And you don't need to move fast to help out your wierdboys.

pismakron wrote:
Skorchas, Bikers, Nob Bikers and Manz are at least decent.

I didn't include bikers in the useless list. In fact, i think that min squads with free nobs are passable. However, they outshine nob bikers cause those are simply WAY too expensive for the mediocre durability they possess. Why would you really need nob bikers? If you want Skorchas are also too expensive for what they do. And you can't shoot them the turn they arrive. They might fit in mech lists but why would you take any of the buggies for such a price over koptas or warbikerz is beyond me. Warbikers are tougher and deal more damage point-for-pont. Koptas cost almost the same, have mortal wound bombs, 1 more str in mellee and Fly. Yep, they are a bit less durable but speed, fly and bommz compensate for it.
As for MANz, opinions differ. I've tried them out and they might have a place in some lists - i'm just so disappointed they're nothing like 7-th bully boyz. And i have 15 manz standing on the shelf. Of which i might only use 3 or 6 at best.

pismakron wrote:
On the other hand you forgot to mention Lobbas and Burnas which are even worse than Flash Gitz. Many of Orks units simply suffer from "while perfectly decent it is still not as good as taking more boyz and weirdboyz instead"

Lobbas, like all big and mek gunz are very inefficient at actually dealing damage point for point but are otherwise our best option for backfield scoring. So, min squads are good enough to use for this sole purpose. And on the bright side, it doesn't really matter what gun variant you take - they all are equally underwhelming at killing stuff.
Burnas still fit in trukks and wagonz if you're running mech. Their damage output point-for-point is almost identical to shootaboyz but they take up less space. And can burn flyers for a wound or two. Can be more or less effectively taken in a battlewagon alongside nobz.

A week ago I would have said "nothing, everything in the Thousand Sons list is at least usable", but I'm pretty sure there's never a situation you'd take an Exalted Sorcerer post-FAQ when a Daemon Prince is so much better for only a few points more...

Skyray is hands down the worst unit in my tau army. Why would you even take it? Its completely useless...

For my guard its ny vanquisher. Why take it when lrbt is better for the same cost?

Bobug wrote:
Skyray is hands down the worst unit in my tau army. Why would you even take it? Its completely useless...

The skyray is absolutely bizarre, i have no idea what they were thinking. It doesnt even have +1 against flyers...

Space Wolves: Fenrisian Wolves - Someone slapped a price rise on a unit that's slower, has lower leadership, is easier to kill and can no longer play bodyguard to characters.
Runner Up: Drop Pod - Can no longer carry a Dreadnought.

Deathwatch: Are actually competitive now.

Tyrannids: Are actually competitive now.

The Death Jester.

I really can't see what he offers. I think he's supposed to be a character sniper but his weapon isn't good enough to kill anything but the weakest cheap Guard characters, and even then it takes two turns.

 Robin5t wrote:
The Death Jester.

I really can't see what he offers. I think he's supposed to be a character sniper but his weapon isn't good enough to kill anything but the weakest cheap Guard characters, and even then it takes two turns.

Sounds a lot like the same problem the Vindicare has. Costs a lot of points for a role that it really just kind of half-asses in a job that really is all-or-nothing.

Wyches - For all the hype they ain't that great, if they get into melee they can survive alot but they will most likely not do any damage in return. Thou I had 19 +1 succubus take down a bloodthirster.

Archon - this guy is useless with a strong contender for worst aura in the game. You can use his LD9 within 6".... Almost all units have LD8 and squads bigger than 5 is a waste.

Court - everyone of them is overcost and don't do much. Lhamea and Medusae being the worst, Sslyth atleast can dish out some pain but for 44p there are way better options.

Hellions - same problems as in last edition, t3 5+ save 1w for 17p. Even a 10man of gretchins will kill these guys with shooting.

Reavers - someone already pointed out why its bad.

Falcon grav tanks.

When compared with the wave serpent I can see no reason to take them. The serpent carries more guys, is far more durable and is a lot cheaper. I guess it has slightly less dakka than a falcon, but that does not come close to compensating for the other points.

** which is unfortunate, as falcons are my favorite elder tank!

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Falcon grav tanks.

When compared with the wave serpent I can see no reason to take them. The serpent carries more guys, is far more durable and is a lot cheaper. I guess it has slightly less dakka than a falcon, but that does not come close to compensating for the other points.

** which is unfortunate, as falcons are my favorite elder tank!

Sadly, this has been true for a while now. The pulse laser is a nice gun, but a falcon doesn’t bring anything to the table that a 2xbrightlance WS doesn’t. With being able to shoot all you guns at different targets, the fact that it can have a flexible loadout is a little more viable, but not worth the serious markup it has over the serpent.

It’s not like it’s a bad tank, just overshadowed (again) by the WS. As for if it’s overpriced, or the WS is underpriced, I’m not sure. That requires more of a big picture view then I have right now.

And I’m with you on the favorite tank bit. The WD introducing it is the first one in my collection, and they are the reason I started Eldar.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Tau: Aun'shi (a melee Tau character that's not a battlesuit? No, just no.), Riptides (GW hit these big guys with the nerf bat really hard), Shield Drones (the FAQ put the final nail in their coffin).

I'd say Riptide has a really niche job now (taunt master), but its performance is not even close to what it was back in 7th.
Aun'Shi and Shield Drones: dead and buried!

I'd add:
GW:
- Sniper Drones: no MWs on them makes just easier to opt for other choices that can kill what's between you and the character instead.
- Sky Ray: only viable in big numbers and not an AA platform anymore (lol).
- Tidewall Gunrig: the tower not firing with a model's BS is just plain bad (and now is way expensive).
FW:
- Shas'O R'myr: you can build a normal Commander with its build - flechette pods notwithstanding (a bunch of S4 AP0 attacks - wooo scary).
- Commander in XV81: losing 2 slots for a SMS isn't a good trade.
- Tetra: 1 shot for 3 markerlight, but the weapon is heavy and Tetras don't ignore heavy penalties. No scout redeploy, outflank or homing beacons. A shadow of what it was.
- Heavy Gun Drone: 38p for 2 burst cannons at BS5+ T4 W3? 3 gun drones do the same for 24p and don't eat up a HS slot.

The riptide may not be as broke-as-feth as it was, but I still think it's pretty powerful.

 Imateria wrote:
Reaver Jet Bikes, went from being the best unit in the codex to arguably the worst, doubled in price but without Skilled Rider's old 3+ cover save are actually more fragile even with the 2 wounds and 4+ armour save. No real improvement in their shooting and their close combat ability has dropped like a stone, there is literally nothing they can do that half a dozen other unit sin the index can't already do better, and in many cases for cheaper as well.

Agreed. They seem especially bad compared to Eldar Shining Spears, who cost just a little more but are more resilient (3+ armour save and 4++ against shooting), have better shooting (since their good guns aren't limited to 1-per-3) and hit much, much harder in combat.

I'd also add Bloodbrides. Still Wyches that pay a lot more for . . . basically nothing.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Battlewagons, because they can be shutdown and totally destroyed by a Biovore unit half it's cost from across the map.

Can't the biovore affect other vehicles similarly?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nevelon wrote:

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Falcon grav tanks.

When compared with the wave serpent I can see no reason to take them. The serpent carries more guys, is far more durable and is a lot cheaper. I guess it has slightly less dakka than a falcon, but that does not come close to compensating for the other points.

** which is unfortunate, as falcons are my favorite elder tank!

Sadly, this has been true for a while now. The pulse laser is a nice gun, but a falcon doesn’t bring anything to the table that a 2xbrightlance WS doesn’t. With being able to shoot all you guns at different targets, the fact that it can have a flexible loadout is a little more viable, but not worth the serious markup it has over the serpent.

It’s not like it’s a bad tank, just overshadowed (again) by the WS. As for if it’s overpriced, or the WS is underpriced, I’m not sure. That requires more of a big picture view then I have right now.

And I’m with you on the favorite tank bit. The WD introducing it is the first one in my collection, and they are the reason I started Eldar.

My first 40k tank also.
Never bought a wave serpent.
No plans to do so either.

I dont play Tau but even I second the Skyray. Junk-o-rific rules.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
a stompa... 977 points is absolutely obsurd compared to imperial knights

Has anyone played a game with one yet? Yes they're expensive but maybe in practise they'll bring the hurt...

Fun to play, but suffers from the Rock/Paper/Scissors nature of super heavies, and the low BS of Orks.

Faced off against 1000 points of Dark Imperium Primaris Marines, and he managed to chew 22 wounds off of it, and he could have played better....

The stompa has like 7 shooting attacks, and barely hits with any of them, making the most sound tactic to run in and just stomp on things (12 Attacks), Disengage, Shoot, Charge, Repeat.

It was alot of fun to play, but against a more mobile, or more heavily armed force, I think it would have struggled. It's probably overcosted.

Ok, wow, so you have wildly misunderstood what I was saying, to the point where you're claiming I'm saying the opposite of what I am.

Let's try to break it down.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
If you remove the option to select individual horror models as a unit type, you need to REDUCE their cost. You stated they should be increased, which would destroy the unit.

Pink horrors are useless specifically due to their cost.

A single squad of pink horrors, if split was factored in, costs 240pts.

Ok, so a pink horror right now costs 10 points. If you factor in the 10 points it becomes in blue horrors, and the brimstone are 2 points for the pair, so that's a total of 24 points (as you hint at.) Then it is my opinion that the pink horror cost should be INCREASED to about 20-22, and the splitting should be free, and no longer be considered summoning. It's just a passive effect. I'm sure you can see how 20 is an INCREASE from 10. I do however think that the total cost should be slightly less than the total cost of each bought separately, as I believe it's stronger to have them all at once... which we'll get to in a second.

It might even be that pinks are overcosted at 20~odd points even with the above change, but that's a different matter. The specific points aren't important to my argument. My argument is simply that pinks should cost the same as all the models that they eventually spit out combined, minus a few points to make it more worth than just having the same models without all the splitting.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

As to what I gain from them being separate?

No, that's not what I asked. I asked the opposite. I was saying they were better split up.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

I have multiple, smaller, weaker units I can comfortably leave behind to camp objectives. Exactly what horde troops are useful for. Summoning is tied to power rating, and I do not want nor need to rely on summoning things that are effectively unlikely to ever be summoned.

I know. This was my point. This was why I asked when you said you thought it was "a terrific ability to have" when they were tied up in having to die before summoning.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

As far as not taking up a large amount of space with back field summoning, once again I disagree. I can summon 30 Brimstone's for 60 points with a roll of around 10+ on 3d6.

I have no idea what you're disagreeing with here, as it's nothing I have even touched on. I honestly don't know what this sentence is, or what it means.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

I do not think you play Daemons, or have not played them in 8th.

I mean, you're right. I play Ad Mech, but it's funny that you come to this conclusion after misreading everything I say.