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Throwing this question out there to avoid hijacking Drager's excellent batrep: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/731412.page

Two questions are:

Does Strength from Death (SfD) allow a Ynnari unit to use SfD to 'Fight as if it were the Fight Phase' and use the Pile-in move to engage an enemy unit in melee without using a charge move?

If yes, does the Yncarne's own special rule then disallow it in specific from doing so when other Ynnari units can?

Relevant sections:

(From Index: Xenos 1)

Strength from Death
This ability is common to all Ynnari Infantry and Ynnari Biker units and the Yncarne. Each time a unit is completely destroyed within 7" of one or more units with this ability, except in the Morale phase, pick one of those units to make a Soulburst action. That unit can immediately do one of the following, even if it has already done so in this turn:
[...]
The unit can charge as if it were the Charge phase, even if it Advanced or Fell Back this turn (enemy units can fire Overwatch as normal). A unit cannot do this if it is within ​
1" of an enemy unit.
The unit can fight as if it were the Fight phase.
Note that this means that a unit may be able to shoot or fight twice in the same turn.
A unit can only make a Soulburst action once per turn.

(From 8th Edition Rulebook)

1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight ​
phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another. ​
A fight is resolved in the following steps:
2. Pile In
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model.

And concerning the Yncarne in specific:

(From Index: Xenos 1)

Inevitable Death
When you set up the Yncarne, it must be set up in waiting rather than on the battlefield. When a unit (friend or foe) is completely destroyed, you may immediately set up the Yncarne as close as possible to the position of that unit, more than 1" from all enemy models. Each time a unit (friend or foe) is completely destroyed, you may immediately remove the Yncarne from the battlefield and set it up again as close as possible to the position of that unit, more than 1" from all enemy models. The Yncarne may not charge in the turn it is set up in this manner

To me, its pretty clear that Strength From Death, when allowing a unit to 'fight' in the fight phase, is dropping the unit into step #2 of the 'fight sequence' (because the unit has already been 'picked' to fight via the ability itself).

So therefore I believe RAW, until GW says otherwise, yes a unit can use a Soulburst 'fight' action to pile-in and then fight against an enemy that it is 4" away from (3" pile-in to get within 1").

And there is absolutely no way to say this pile-in is a charge, and therefore the Yncarne's rules do not prevent it from doing this in any way.

You can't skip the first step of the fight phase. You have to follow all the rules. The Yncarne didn't charge and wasn't within an inch of the enemy, it can't fight because in the fight phase you couldn't fight and you have to follow those rules since you may fight as if it were the fight phase.

Being allowed to fight isn't only hitting units, it involves everything. Here is an example. A unit of berserkers charged and killed a bunch of guys. A demon prince also charged into base contact but the opponent removed everyone who was within an inch of the prince. Thankfully because it says a unit that charged can fight, it can then pile in since it is allowed to fight and finds itself in range to mulch the rest of the squad.

Now also imagine the berserkers didn't charge but has already fought and killed everyone within an inch. They also have a rule like strength for death that says they can fight twice in the fight phase. They fought once so that means they can fight again. However like the yncarne, there is no enemy model within an inch and they can't fight again.because they haven't met the condition to fight. Soulburst does not allow him/her to power slide into a unit just as the berserker's rule does not allow them to power slide into another unit.

You are just wishlisting. I love the Yncarne and want that very much to be true but it isn't.

You cannot Pile In unless engaged.

Directly from the Designers Commentary (FAQ Lite)

...unless the unit in question charged this turn it
cannot be chosen to fight if there are no longer enemy
units within 1".

So the unit using SfD cannot be chosen to Fight if it is not within 1" of an enemy unit. Period. That is RAW. There is nothing in SfD that says anything about skipping steps in the fight phase either. I don't see how you can interpret it any other way.

 PFI wrote:
You can't skip the first step of the fight phase. You have to follow all the rules. The Yncarne didn't charge and wasn't within an inch of the enemy, it can't fight because in the fight phase you couldn't fight and you have to follow those rules since you may fight as if it were the fight phase.

There's a great deal that's wrong here.

1) As I've pointed out in some other threads on similar questions, this is simply incoherent. If I can "fight as if it were the fight phase", then I can fight. I haven't fought as if it's the fight phase if I haven't fought. So if I'm not restricted from picking that Souburst (which I'm not), then I'm definitely fighting, and that means that I'm definitely not not-fighting.

2) You seem to be reading it as "you may fight if you could fight in the Fight phase". That's not what it says.

3) There's absolutely nothing saying that you have to be within 1" or have charged to fight in the Fight phase. It's just that units which meet those conditions are given permission to fight in the ordinary course of the game. Special rules give extra permissions all the time, and of course they can even override restrictions. You bring up Berserkers later. There's an explicit prohibition in the Fight phase section that says you can't choose a unit to fight more than once. Yet somehow you're fine with Berserkers fighting twice.

Being allowed to fight isn't only hitting units, it involves everything. Here is an example. A unit of berserkers charged and killed a bunch of guys. A demon prince also charged into base contact but the opponent removed everyone who was within an inch of the prince. Thankfully because it says a unit that charged can fight, it can then pile in since it is allowed to fight and finds itself in range to mulch the rest of the squad.

Now also imagine the berserkers didn't charge but has already fought and killed everyone within an inch. They also have a rule like strength for death that says they can fight twice in the fight phase. They fought once so that means they can fight again. However like the yncarne, there is no enemy model within an inch and they can't fight again.because they haven't met the condition to fight. Soulburst does not allow him/her to power slide into a unit just as the berserker's rule does not allow them to power slide into another unit.

You are just wishlisting. I love the Yncarne and want that very much to be true but it isn't.

Yes, the rules clearly define a "fight" as steps 2 through 6 of the Fight Sequence. That's what a fight is. Step 1 is just laying out one of the ways that units can be activated to fight. There are others, like Soulbursts.

But anyway, with Berserkers it seems obvious that their special rule is intended only to override the prohibition on fighting twice, and not to grant special permission to fight otherwise. If their rule was simply "this unit may always be chosen to fight in each Fight phase", then that would naturally be read as allowing them to "fight" -- that is, perform steps 2-6 of the Fight Sequence -- regardless of whether they are within 1" or charged.

 Malifik wrote:
Directly from the Designers Commentary (FAQ Lite)

...unless the unit in question charged this turn it
cannot be chosen to fight if there are no longer enemy
units within 1".

So the unit using SfD cannot be chosen to Fight if it is not within 1" of an enemy unit. Period. That is RAW. There is nothing in SfD that says anything about skipping steps in the fight phase either. I don't see how you can interpret it any other way.

The SfD rule explicitly tells us to go to Step 2 of the Fight Sequence. I have no idea why you'd think it wants us to check to see if the unit would be eligible to be chosen to fight in the absence of any special rules if it were actually the fight phase. That's just not what it says. No one is "skipping steps in the fight phase". Soulbursts do not somehow start a new fight phase. They're very limited. All a unit does is fight, as if it were the fight phase. What does a unit do when it fights in the fight phase? It performs steps 2-6 of the Fight Sequence. The unit is simply never "chosen to fight" according to the procedure laid out in Step 1. It also strikes me as pretty disingenuous to quote from a FAQ answer that's obviously talking about the ordinary game flow and not considering special rules. Like, are you going to quote the next answer and say that therefore Berserkers can only fight once?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To try to be as clear as possible:

I read SfD as basically:

1) some conditions for choosing a unit (none of these involve being within 1" of the enemy or charging)

2) "That unit can immediately..."

3) ...perform steps 2-6 of the Fight Sequence.


I assume that the controversial part is (3), but it's not clear because sometimes people talk like I'm choosing a unit to fight when obviously the unit was chosen much earlier and it was not chosen to fight, but rather to Soulburst.

So why am I reading "fight as if it were the Fight phase" as "perform steps 2-6 of the Fight Sequence"? Well, because the end of Step 1 of the Fight Sequence is explicit that a fight begins with Step 2. Units are not already fighting in Step 1 -- that's a procedure that players follow in the Fight phase which determines the order in which and whether units fight. When a unit fights in the Fight phase what it does is precisely Steps 2-6, no more and no less.

Dionysodorus wrote:
The SfD rule explicitly tells us to go to Step 2 of the Fight Sequence.

No, it does not. No where does it say anything to the effect of "go to step 2 of the Fight Sequence" or "Skip step 1 of the Fight Sequence" or "ignore normal rules that would prevent a model from fighting in the Fight phase". You are assuming, which is wrong. Unless SfD gets FAQ'd to specifically allow units to skip the first step and ignore normal rules of choosing Fighters to Fight, then a unit that is more than 1" away cannot pile-in.

 Malifik wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
The SfD rule explicitly tells us to go to Step 2 of the Fight Sequence.

No, it does not. No where does it say anything to the effect of "go to step 2 of the Fight Sequence" or "Skip step 1 of the Fight Sequence" or "ignore normal rules that would prevent a model from fighting in the Fight phase". You are assuming, which is wrong. Unless SfD gets FAQ'd to specifically allow units to skip the first step and ignore normal rules of choosing Fighters to Fight, then a unit that is more than 1" away cannot pile-in.

I mean, it seems pretty clear to me. It says I can fight as if it's the fight phase. So I say, okay, let me go to the fight phase rules and see what this "fight" thing entails. I see some stuff about choosing a unit to fight with that doesn't appear relevant -- I already have a unit that I know is going to fight. But then I see something promising: "A fight is resolved in the following steps:"

"Aha," I say, "this is surely what I was told to go do when I was told to fight.". My eyes scan down the page to the next line, where I read: "2. Pile In". This would appear to be the first step of a fight.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Malifik wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
The SfD rule explicitly tells us to go to Step 2 of the Fight Sequence.

No, it does not. No where does it say anything to the effect of "go to step 2 of the Fight Sequence" or "Skip step 1 of the Fight Sequence" or "ignore normal rules that would prevent a model from fighting in the Fight phase". You are assuming, which is wrong. Unless SfD gets FAQ'd to specifically allow units to skip the first step and ignore normal rules of choosing Fighters to Fight, then a unit that is more than 1" away cannot pile-in.

I mean, it seems pretty clear to me. It says I can fight as if it's the fight phase. So I say, okay, let me go to the fight phase rules and see what this "fight" thing entails. I see some stuff about choosing a unit to fight with that doesn't appear relevant -- I already have a unit that I know is going to fight. But then I see something promising: "A fight is resolved in the following steps:"

"Aha," I say, "this is surely what I was told to go do when I was told to fight.". My eyes scan down the page to the next line, where I read: "2. Pile In". This would appear to be the first step of a fight.

Again, you say it seems clear to you, but then you're skipping a step in the fight phase without being told to do so by the ability text. If you want to really analyze the way SfD is written, you can see that there are some exceptions already specifically laid out to supersede normal rules, such as if you choose Charge you can Charge even if you Advanced or Fell Back - this supersedes the normal rules. Fight within the SfD ability text has a clause that specifically states that it allows a unit to Fight even if it fought before in the same turn. Again, this supersedes the normal rules as they are written. But what is definitely not mentioned is anything about Fight allowing you to Fight if you are not within 1" of an enemy unit. Therefore, if the unit that is using SfD is not within 1" of an enemy unit, they cannot be chosen to Fight, and must then choose either Charge or Soulburst.

So far I've found all rules questions to stem from people simply trying to interpret rules that don't need interpreting. If the rule does not say to do something, then don't do it - it's usually that simple with 8th Edition. The entire first FAQ and Designer's Commentary that was put out was basically the Designers saying "do what the rule says".

I disagree that SfD lifts the restriction of needing to be within 1" of an enemy model to fight. The unit needs to be eligible to fight, and it neither charged nor had an enemy within 1", making it ineligible. This is clear to me.

I reject the notion that it was written in such a way as to allow a unit to avoid overwatch, as well.

 Malifik wrote:

Again, you say it seems clear to you, but then you're skipping a step in the fight phase without being told to do so by the ability text. If you want to really analyze the way SfD is written, you can see that there are some exceptions already specifically laid out to supersede normal rules, such as if you choose Charge you can Charge even if you Advanced or Fell Back - this supersedes the normal rules. Fight within the SfD ability text has a clause that specifically states that it allows a unit to Fight even if it fought before in the same turn. Again, this supersedes the normal rules as they are written. But what is definitely not mentioned is anything about Fight allowing you to Fight if you are not within 1" of an enemy unit. Therefore, if the unit that is using SfD is not within 1" of an enemy unit, they cannot be chosen to Fight, and must then choose either Charge or Soulburst.

So far I've found all rules questions to stem from people simply trying to interpret rules that don't need interpreting. If the rule does not say to do something, then don't do it - it's usually that simple with 8th Edition. The entire first FAQ and Designer's Commentary that was put out was basically the Designers saying "do what the rule says".

This post is bizarre. I am literally just doing exactly what the rule tells me to do, and you're going on about how actually this Soulburst is somehow spawning a miniature Fight phase (??) except that Step 1 is modified in a couple weird ways (??) such that I guess the unit which Soulbursted is the only one which is eligible to be chosen to fight (or something? tbh I have no clue how you're actually getting "past" step 1 since you've decided you have to somehow do it). And you talk about how the rules don't need interpreting right after you spend a paragraph trying to discern hidden intent from just how explicitly permissive the other Soulburst abilities are written, instead of trying to actually point out where my straightforwardly following the simple rule goes wrong.

That said, you of course go wrong in your attempt to lawyer this restriction on the fight Soulburst out of what's written and not written for the other Soulburst abilities, and actually if we're allowed to look at how other rules are worded to discern intent for Soulburst then you're going to be in really bad shape.

So, first, if you actually go and read the rules you're referencing you'll see that, while the charging rules do contain a restriction that someone might want to see explicitly over-ridden, the fighting rules don't. The Charge phase rules explicitly say that "You may not choose a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn". I am not sure that this means that the explicit Soulburst permission to charge despite having advanced or fallen back is therefore necessary, but it certainly aids in clarity. But you can't find anything like this in the Fight phase rules. Nothing says that I can't fight unless I'm within 1" or charged. The only rule that actually prevents a unit from fighting when it has otherwise been given permission is "No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase". And as you note, this rule is explicitly over-ridden.

Second, other rules that allow units to fight outside of the normal sequence actually do say that the unit must be within 1". Look at the Sisters' Acts of Faith, which function very similarly to Strength from Death. Now, I find this sort of argument to be kind of lawyerly, but since you seem to find it attractive I would suggest that the rules have clearly set a standard that, when they want your out-of-sequence fight to still require that the unit be within 1", they'll say so explicitly. Edit: Another example would be the Slaanesh psychic power "Hysterical Frenzy".

So my company ancient allows my dying model on a 4+ to move 3" and then make an attack before being removed.

I dunno, if we're skipping past choosing eligible units in Fight phase, do we also follow it through with the Shooting phase? I might be wrong but that would allow ynnari unit shoot even if it's within '1 of the enemy, for example.

This would also mean that, since selecting unit (step 1) in the shooting phase is also the part that includes "can't shoot if unit is within 1" of enemy models" is skipped, you can shoot any and all weapons if you SfD and are within 1" of an enemy. Presumably at any target except the one you're within 1" of, because they can't be targeted due to being within 1" of a friendly model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadenuat wrote:
I dunno, if we're skipping past choosing eligible units in Fight phase, do we also follow it through with the Shooting phase? I might be wrong but that would allow ynnari unit shoot even if it's within '1 of the enemy, for example.

Ha, beat me to it.

Jacksmiles wrote:
So my company ancient allows my dying model on a 4+ to move 3" and then make an attack before being removed.

Of course not?

The rules are very, very clear about what a "fight" is. It is steps 2-6 of the Fight Sequence.

The rules are very, very clear about what an "attack" is, in the fight phase. It's when you choose a melee weapon profile, then roll to hit. If you succeed, you roll to wound. Then the enemy allocates the wound... I assume you see where this is going.

I mean, your objection is silly and incoherent. You're asking if a rule that lets you "attack" lets you "move 3" and then make an attack". No, an "attack" is obviously not some weird recursively-defined thing, and it is really kind of baffling to me that you thought you had a solid example of where my reasoning is going wrong.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
So my company ancient allows my dying model on a 4+ to move 3" and then make an attack before being removed.

Of course not?

The rules are very, very clear about what a "fight" is. It is steps 2-6 of the Fight Sequence.

The rules are very, very clear about what an "attack" is, in the fight phase. It's when you choose a melee weapon profile, then roll to hit. If you succeed, you roll to wound. Then the enemy allocates the wound... I assume you see where this is going.

I mean, your objection is silly and incoherent. You're asking if a rule that lets you "attack" lets you "move 3" and then make an attack". No, an "attack" is obviously not some weird recursively-defined thing, and it is really kind of baffling to me that you thought you had a solid example of where my reasoning is going wrong.

No, it works, it's very clear to me.

Makes as much sense as selecting a unit to fight that can't fight, except it suddenly can because you're skipping the selection process in some way by selecting it.

 Shadenuat wrote:
I dunno, if we're skipping past choosing eligible units in Fight phase, do we also follow it through with the Shooting phase? I might be wrong but that would allow ynnari unit shoot even if it's within '1 of the enemy, for example.

This seems less clear to me, because the shooting rules are explicit that you can't choose a unit to shoot with if it's within 1", and as has been noted elsewhere the shooting rules are very sloppy such that technically you're never allowed to fire Assault weapons if you Advanced, etc., when that's clearly unintended. Like, obviously you have to be able to choose a unit within 1" to shoot with, because otherwise models with pistols never get to use their special rule, right? It seems to me that the shooting rules should generally be read as allowing you to choose any unit you want to shoot with, with no restrictions at all, and then restricting shooting on a model-by-model basis such that models which are in units within 1" of the enemy can't shoot, unless they have pistols. Otherwise we just break a lot of the game, right?

Edit: And so, to be clear -- yes, an Ynnari unit within 1" of the enemy can Soulburst and choose to shoot. I would then treat this the same as any other unit which is trying to shoot within 1" of the enemy -- only models with pistols can shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jacksmiles wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
So my company ancient allows my dying model on a 4+ to move 3" and then make an attack before being removed.

Of course not?

The rules are very, very clear about what a "fight" is. It is steps 2-6 of the Fight Sequence.

The rules are very, very clear about what an "attack" is, in the fight phase. It's when you choose a melee weapon profile, then roll to hit. If you succeed, you roll to wound. Then the enemy allocates the wound... I assume you see where this is going.

I mean, your objection is silly and incoherent. You're asking if a rule that lets you "attack" lets you "move 3" and then make an attack". No, an "attack" is obviously not some weird recursively-defined thing, and it is really kind of baffling to me that you thought you had a solid example of where my reasoning is going wrong.

No, it works, it's very clear to me.

Makes as much sense as selecting a unit to fight that can't fight, except it suddenly can because you're skipping the selection process in some way by selecting it.

Oy. Again, nothing says my unit can't fight. I am not "skipping" a selection process. There is an alternative way in which units can be activated to fight, as laid out in SfD.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
I dunno, if we're skipping past choosing eligible units in Fight phase, do we also follow it through with the Shooting phase? I might be wrong but that would allow ynnari unit shoot even if it's within '1 of the enemy, for example.

This seems less clear to me, because the shooting rules are explicit that you can't choose a unit to shoot with if it's within 1", and as has been noted elsewhere the shooting rules are very sloppy such that technically you're never allowed to fire Assault weapons if you Advanced, etc., when that's clearly unintended. Like, obviously you have to be able to choose a unit within 1" to shoot with, because otherwise models with pistols never get to use their special rule, right? It seems to me that the shooting rules should generally be read as allowing you to choose any unit you want to shoot with, with no restrictions at all, and then restricting shooting on a model-by-model basis such that models which are in units within 1" of the enemy can't shoot, unless they have pistols. Otherwise we just break a lot of the game, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jacksmiles wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
So my company ancient allows my dying model on a 4+ to move 3" and then make an attack before being removed.

Of course not?

The rules are very, very clear about what a "fight" is. It is steps 2-6 of the Fight Sequence.

The rules are very, very clear about what an "attack" is, in the fight phase. It's when you choose a melee weapon profile, then roll to hit. If you succeed, you roll to wound. Then the enemy allocates the wound... I assume you see where this is going.

I mean, your objection is silly and incoherent. You're asking if a rule that lets you "attack" lets you "move 3" and then make an attack". No, an "attack" is obviously not some weird recursively-defined thing, and it is really kind of baffling to me that you thought you had a solid example of where my reasoning is going wrong.

No, it works, it's very clear to me.

Makes as much sense as selecting a unit to fight that can't fight, except it suddenly can because you're skipping the selection process in some way by selecting it.

Oy. Again, nothing says my unit can't fight. I am not "skipping" a selection process. There is an alternative way in which units can be activated to fight, as laid out in SfD.

Which also works for the shooting phase.

You can't have it both ways, yes for fighting and no for shooting. You're saying essentially that you're selecting a unit in an alternative fashion, and skipping step 1. So you would skip step 1 in both instances.

Again, it's kind of funny though because outside of pistols, the unit that is shooting within 1" of an enemy could not select that enemy as a target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dionysodorus wrote:


The rules are very, very clear about what a "fight" is. It is steps 2-6 of the Fight Sequence.

Where is it clarified that "a fight" is *specifically and only* steps 2-6? The only wording is "Fight Sequence." How is step 1 not part of the "fight" while being part of the "fight sequence"?

Jacksmiles wrote:

Where is it clarified that "a fight" is *specifically and only* steps 2-6? The only wording is "Fight Sequence." How is step 1 not part of the "fight" while being part of the "fight sequence"?

First, please read the thread.

Second, what? Are you seriously claiming that Step 1 of the Fight Sequence, which is laying out a procedure to choose units to fight with, is itself part of a fight? I mean, I know you have some weird recursive definition of "attack" such that apparently you think that any time the rules tell you to "attack" you can move 3" and then move 3" and then move 3".... and then move 3" and then attack, but this too? The Fight Sequence is the sequence that you follow in the Fight phase. Just like the Psychic Sequence is the sequence that you follow in the Psychic phase and the Shooting Sequence is the sequence you follow in the Shooting phase. These completely describe how you proceed through each phase. And each phase can involve more than one psychic power, or shooting attack, or fight.

Third, please read the rules. The last sentence fragment of Step 1 of the Fight Sequence is "A fight is resolved in the following steps:" Step 1 of the Sequence is not part of a fight. I suppose it is possible that a fight is only supposed to go through some but not all of steps 2-6. Maybe it ends on Step 4? But this seems implausible to me. Without anything actually saying that a fight ends after a specific step I think it's reasonable to say that it goes all the way through step 6.

Do they explicitly get to resolve "a fight," which could imply you start on step 2 as you believe, or do they get "to fight"? If they get to do "a fight" then sure, I'll let you win on the internet. Is that what it says?

Why do you believe that an alternate selection (or step 1) means that they don't still have to be eligible to perform the fight outside of restrictions that aren't explicitly lifted? What says your unit "can't fight" is the fact that it's not within 1" of an enemy model - you aren't proving to me that this "alternate selection method" actually truly skips step 1. "Can fight as if it were the fight phase" - in the fight phase, you follow the "fight sequence."

First, I've been reading the thread - I still believe you're wrong.

Second, you literally say that you follow the Fight Sequence in the Fight Phase here, step 1 is part of that.

Third, thanks for the heads up, I missed that, but it's still part of the fight sequence. Which is how you resolve fighting in the fight phase, and you're choosing to fight as if it is the fight phase, meaning you would follow instructions for the fight phase.

Jacksmiles wrote:
Do they explicitly get to resolve "a fight," which could imply you start on step 2 as you believe, or do they get "to fight"? If they get to do "a fight" then sure, I'll let you win on the internet. Is that what it says?

I want to point out that you're now splitting hairs about the difference between a unit "resolving a fight" and what a unit does when it gets "to fight". I mean, come on. This is like when someone was arguing that an "understrength unit" was different from an "under-strength unit".

Why do you believe that an alternate selection (or step 1) means that they don't still have to be eligible to perform the fight outside of restrictions that aren't explicitly lifted? What says your unit "can't fight" is the fact that it's not within 1" of an enemy model - you aren't proving to me that this "alternate selection method" actually truly skips step 1. "Can fight as if it were the fight phase" - in the fight phase, you follow the "fight sequence."

Because that's what an alternative way of getting permission is? Like, if there's a general rule that says "if your name begins with A-M, you eat lunch at 11:30, and if your name begins with N-Z, you eat lunch at 12:30", then that's setting out some criterion that determines when kids eat. But it doesn't even suggest that there's no alternative way of eating at either 11:30 or 12:30. If the soccer team has to get on a bus at 12:30 to go to a match, maybe the coach gives Rosie a note giving her permission to eat lunch at 11:30 that day. When she shows her teacher that note the teacher isn't going to say that, no, her name begins with R and so she eats at 12:30, even though the normal "lunch sequence" is that first the A-M kids eat and only later do the N-Z kids eat.

Soulburst says my unit can fight. I have a permission slip. And, again, it says I fight. Not that I somehow spawn a miniature Fight phase where I have to choose the unit following the normal procedure and if my unit isn't eligible according to that procedure then I don't fight after all. The rules very clearly tell us that a fight is steps 2-6.

I don't think that responding to the rest of this is productive. I'm just repeating myself at this point.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
It occurs to me that someone might object that in my permission slip example the slip is presumably explicit about Rosie needing to eat at 11:30, but we can easily construct an example where this isn't the case.

Teacher asks: "Does anyone need to use the restroom?"
Bobby and Jane raise their hands.
Teacher: "Bobby and Jane can use the restroom."
later...
Rosie raises her hand, says: "I need to use the restroom."
Teacher: "You can use the restroom."
[Rosie goes to the restroom]

This is perfectly normal, and the teacher never had to be explicit that Rosie had permission to go the restroom even though she did not meet the criteria earlier laid out for who is allowed to go to the restroom.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
Do they explicitly get to resolve "a fight," which could imply you start on step 2 as you believe, or do they get "to fight"? If they get to do "a fight" then sure, I'll let you win on the internet. Is that what it says?

I want to point out that you're now splitting hairs about the difference between a unit "resolving a fight" and what a unit does when it gets "to fight". I mean, come on. This is like when someone was arguing that an "understrength unit" was different from an "under-strength unit".

This was just to illustrate that it doesn't actually tell you to skip step 1, and you're [EDIT] believing that to be RAW.

Your real-world bathroom example doesn't seem to really follow along with this argument (too simplistic and doesn't follow the steps of the argument), and I suspect that's part of why real-world examples are mentioned in tenet #3. Now, if the children were permitted to go to the bathroom only while within 1" of an enemy during their bathroom phase, and there were steps they had to follow such as selecting an enemy to potty on, etc...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dionysodorus wrote:


Soulburst says my unit can fight. I have a permission slip. And, again, it says I fight. Not that I somehow spawn a miniature Fight phase where I have to choose the unit following the normal procedure and if my unit isn't eligible according to that procedure then I don't fight after all. The rules very clearly tell us that a fight is steps 2-6.

It says you fight as if it were your fight phase. So you are pretending it's your fight phase momentarily. What happens in the fight phase is you follow the fight sequence. I'm honestly willing to be wrong but I think you'd have to find a different way to say it because like you said you're really just repeating your arguments that aren't swaying me.

So really, it comes down to "Is SFD telling us to skip step 1?" If it is, then this allows you to avoid overwatch, and also skip step 1 in the shooting phase as well.

Honestly I think we're both gonna just be repeating ourselves and going in circles at this point so I'm good here.

Jacksmiles wrote:

This was just to illustrate that it doesn't actually tell you to skip step 1, and you're assuming that to be RAI.

I'm not sure what this means. It feels like you're trying to have it both ways, where you're not really engaging in incredibly pedantic hair-splitting, you're only assuming such hair-splitting into existence to show that I'm not necessarily right because maybe these hairs could be split. Like, I feel like at this point you've given the game away. If a unit fights by resolving a fight, then everything I've said is fine. Only if it's not true that a unit fights by resolving a fight am I wrong. But that's incredibly pedantic hair-splitting and no one should tolerate this in a real game. So, sure, maybe you can make some really convoluted RAW argument where somehow a unit "fighting" involves some weird modified version of Step 1, because this is distinct from the unit "resolving a fight" (although I don't think it's easy to make this argument and no one has tried yet). But, RAI at least, I'm not seeing what your objection could be.

It says you fight as if it were your fight phase. So you are pretending it's your fight phase momentarily. What happens in the fight phase is you follow the fight sequence. I'm honestly willing to be wrong but I think you'd have to find a different way to say it because like you said you're really just repeating your arguments that aren't swaying me.

So really, it comes down to "Is SFD telling us to skip step 1?" If it is, then this allows you to avoid overwatch, and also skip step 1 in the shooting phase as well.

Yes, you're essentially pretending that it's your fight phase for the purposes of resolving a fight. But there's absolutely no reason to assume that you're starting a new fight phase from step 1 (And, again, I have no idea how you're resolving Step 1. Can I Soulburst and then choose a different unit to fight with which was nowhere near the unit that died? Step 1 says I can.). We should probably hop in exactly where it tells us to hop in (incredibly pedantic hair-splitting aside). "Do X as if it's [time when X is normally done]" doesn't mean that you do everything you would do at that time, only X. This is telling you how to fight.

I think that's about the only really new thing I'd have to add. I answered your other objection here earlier in the thread when Shadenuat brought it up. The Shooting phase rules are a mess and the only reasonable way to read them is that all units are eligible to be chosen to shoot once per Shooting phase regardless of whether they Advanced or are within 1" of the enemy, etc. It's just that individual models can't shoot if their unit doesn't meet certain conditions, normally. Otherwise we break Assault weapons and Pistols.

But yes, you can absolutely avoid Overwatch this way. And that's perfectly normal. It happens all the time in this game that you avoid Overwatch by Piling In to a unit that you did not charge. The much larger gameplay consequence is that it becomes much easier to actually fight twice in a turn, and Soulbursts become actually-useful for CC units.

If you don't think the Soulburst action that says "The unit can fight as if it were the Fight Phase." doesn't actually allow them to fight, what do you think it's supposed to do?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
If you don't think the Soulburst action that says "The unit can fight as if it were the Fight Phase." doesn't actually allow them to fight, what do you think it's supposed to do?

From how I see it, the only 100% sure thing that is happening by RAW is choosing the unit for Soulburst special ability. Whenever unit dies, immediately pick a unit - and then it "can" do something of the following. Unit "can" follow through a particular phase - it can move, can fight, ecetera. The fact that it can do it doesn't mean it ignores any prerequisites for doing it, unless stated otherwise. For example, you can't cast same psychic powers even as Ynnari. You can't shoot if you don't have a gun. And it may happen unit is not eligible for a Fight.

It may be not correct by RAW, but I am gonna bet my ass that 99% of players would point at the big red table in the BRB if you bring it up and it is easier to let it go than spend half an hour explaining how you are going from step 1 to step 2 because Ynnari and so on (and wait for a FAQ patiently). That is just what's gonna happen.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Malifik wrote:

Again, you say it seems clear to you, but then you're skipping a step in the fight phase without being told to do so by the ability text. If you want to really analyze the way SfD is written, you can see that there are some exceptions already specifically laid out to supersede normal rules, such as if you choose Charge you can Charge even if you Advanced or Fell Back - this supersedes the normal rules. Fight within the SfD ability text has a clause that specifically states that it allows a unit to Fight even if it fought before in the same turn. Again, this supersedes the normal rules as they are written. But what is definitely not mentioned is anything about Fight allowing you to Fight if you are not within 1" of an enemy unit. Therefore, if the unit that is using SfD is not within 1" of an enemy unit, they cannot be chosen to Fight, and must then choose either Charge or Soulburst.

So far I've found all rules questions to stem from people simply trying to interpret rules that don't need interpreting. If the rule does not say to do something, then don't do it - it's usually that simple with 8th Edition. The entire first FAQ and Designer's Commentary that was put out was basically the Designers saying "do what the rule says".

This post is bizarre. I am literally just doing exactly what the rule tells me to do, and you're going on about how actually this Soulburst is somehow spawning a miniature Fight phase (??)

You are not doing exactly what the rule tells you to do - you are inventing your own steps. The rule says "The unit can Fight as if it were the Fight phase". When do units fight in the Fight phase? If they made a charge or are within 1" of an enemy unit. The end.

Jacksmiles wrote:

It says you fight as if it were your fight phase. So you are pretending it's your fight phase momentarily. What happens in the fight phase is you follow the fight sequence. I'm honestly willing to be wrong but I think you'd have to find a different way to say it because like you said you're really just repeating your arguments that aren't swaying me.

EXACTLY this!

 Shadenuat wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
If you don't think the Soulburst action that says "The unit can fight as if it were the Fight Phase." doesn't actually allow them to fight, what do you think it's supposed to do?

From how I see it, the only 100% sure thing that is happening by RAW is choosing the unit for Soulburst special ability. Whenever unit dies, immediately pick a unit - and then it "can" do something of the following. Unit "can" follow through a particular phase - it can move, can fight, ecetera. The fact that it can do it doesn't mean it ignores any prerequisites for doing it, unless stated otherwise. For example, you can't cast same psychic powers even as Ynnari. You can't shoot if you don't have a gun. And it may happen unit is not eligible for a Fight.

It may be not correct by RAW, but I am gonna bet my ass that 99% of players would point at the big red table in the BRB if you bring it up and it is easier to let it go than spend half an hour explaining how you are going from step 1 to step 2 because Ynnari and so on (and wait for a FAQ patiently). That is just what's gonna happen.

So your contention that it's a rule that does nothing? Which is more likely they wrote a rule that does nothing, or that it's supposed to do something, and the wording isn't quite right.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
If you don't think the Soulburst action that says "The unit can fight as if it were the Fight Phase." doesn't actually allow them to fight, what do you think it's supposed to do?

From how I see it, the only 100% sure thing that is happening by RAW is choosing the unit for Soulburst special ability. Whenever unit dies, immediately pick a unit - and then it "can" do something of the following. Unit "can" follow through a particular phase - it can move, can fight, ecetera. The fact that it can do it doesn't mean it ignores any prerequisites for doing it, unless stated otherwise. For example, you can't cast same psychic powers even as Ynnari. You can't shoot if you don't have a gun. And it may happen unit is not eligible for a Fight.

It may be not correct by RAW, but I am gonna bet my ass that 99% of players would point at the big red table in the BRB if you bring it up and it is easier to let it go than spend half an hour explaining how you are going from step 1 to step 2 because Ynnari and so on (and wait for a FAQ patiently). That is just what's gonna happen.

So your contention that it's a rule that does nothing? Which is more likely they wrote a rule that does nothing, or that it's supposed to do something, and the wording isn't quite right.

Several armies have had non functioning rules over the years. This is not some sort of magical first time it's happened.

It'd probably be the first time the rule that was hinted at wasn't used in the resulting FAQ/Errata though.

When they write a rule that intends to do something, they almost always make that rule do that thing instead of saying "welp, it doesn't do anything".

I just want to point out that the first step of the fight phase is "choose a unit to fight with"

The first step of the shooting phase is "choose a unit to shoot with"

Now strength from death says "the unit can shoot as if it were your shooting phase, even if it Advanced or Fell Back this turn"

Now if we ignore step one of the fight phase as was pointed out, then I imagine we would ignore step one of the shoot phase. Now if we ignore step one of the shoot phase where it says you cannot choose a unit to shoot if it advanced or fell abck this turn, then why would they have to say you could do this in the rules for soulbursting.

Errr duh, because you don't ignore step one. Choosing a unit to shoot with still means it has to follow the rules for being an eligible target, with the exception of soulbursting allowing you to shoot when you advance or fall back. Therefore you don't ignore step one of the fight phase.

YOU MUST BE WITHIN 1" OR HAVE CHARGED

problem solved