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So, in the tactics sub forum, someone started a thread about how they are going to abuse the fact that you can pay for understrength units, an example would be only paying for an Ork boy unit, 1 Grot, 1 Boy and a Grot Orderly for +3CP.

Now someone in that thread mentioned that ITC have already said they won't allow understrength units in tournaments so this would only really apply to non-ITC tournaments and friendly games.

So as the title says, would you play someone trying to field understrength units? Personally I would never play someone trying to field understrength units because if they seriously don't have enough models for a unit (3/5 marines for a tac squad) I wouldn't care if they proxied.

On a side note, would any TOs on dakka like to add whether they would allow this? I'm running a mini-tournament for some local players very soon and I have banned understrength units.

(I'm starting this thread because some people are seriously thinking about trying to abuse the system with this wording and I wanted to see whether they'd actually ever get a game)

Pretty much never.

basically no situation outside of just trying to game the system to lockin an extra special or heavy weapon cant be resolved with a simple proxy model to fill out anything that someone lost or is in the middle of painting or assembly.

Matched play lists minimum units size. No self respecting to should be using powe level.

I don't see the big deal. The rules state you have to pay for a minimum sized unit anyway, so fewer models just hurts you.

I'll try anything once. Except sky-diving.

In a tournament sure - it's the rules of the game.

In a friendly game, I'd play against them if that's the only list they had or had a good reason for it. If it's just to cheese out as many Command Points as possible, I'd probably decline the game since it's clear my objectives for the game and theirs aren't harmonious.

malcontent999 wrote:I don't see the big deal. The rules state you have to pay for a minimum sized unit anyway, so fewer models just hurts you.

As of the FAQ you only have to pay for the models you have not the min sized unit, thanks GW.

It depends on whether it's one unit or 15.

Don't feed the Troll.

Needs context to get a proper answer.

Is it someone trying to abuse it to an excessive degree to get a load of CP or some other future cheese that will come of it? Probably skip playing that person.

If someone is using it to get more Special/Heavy weapons on the board than otherwise normal, with Tactical Marine rule saying "If this unit contains fewer than ten models, one model may replace it's bolter with a special or heavy weapon", then I'd may skip playing that person.
Rubric marines have a different wording that prevents specials/heavies from being taken in squads of less than ten. Not sure which units have each of the different wordings.

If someone says "I had 20 extra points and didn't want to waste it on upgrades that i'll forget about so I'm including a Single Intercessor model as an understrength unit" then there's no issue for me personally.

It's all about the context.

I mean, sure, within the spirit of the rule.

The rule's there so that if you turned the fifth assault marine into a cool looking Jump-Pack Captain you can still field the other four as a unit. If that's why the unit is understrength, that's fine by me.



And, well, as far as using it to try to game the system by filling out a brigade with 1-model units, I have this gut suspicion that that isn't going to be effective anyway.

Holy cow, this thread is not even half way through first page and it's already toxic..

Context matters, for me.
If someone's doing it to game the system, no.
If, like an example given above, someone had 20 points left and just tossed in an extra marine on the board, that's cool.

Yep, but that's cause I tend to try to avoid playing against waac jerks so it'd likely not be for abusive reasons.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Context matters, for me.
If someone's doing it to game the system, no.
If, like an example given above, someone had 20 points left and just tossed in an extra marine on the board, that's cool.

exactly this to explain my "other"

if you want a billion command points and are running 180 ork boyz as individual boys... hard pass

if we are playing a 1500 point game and with full units you can't hit 1500 even but want to take a 3 man dire avenger unit , or a 2 member devastator squad and it is just the one under sized unit game on lets throw some dice and have some fun

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Don't feed the Troll.

Quite.

If someone is taking the minimum 1 model per unit TYPE to get more CPs, what is the rest of the army made of????

In the OP's example of 1 Grot, 1 Boy, 1 Orderly, how does he take other troops? If they field other Grot and Boy units don't they HAVE to consolidate those in the same unit?
Meaning it should be against the rules to have 3x 20 Boyz and then a 4th unit of 1? You can put that 1 boy into any of your other units, so it cannot qualify as an understrength unit (because you have other models, so you must use them per the rule)

If someone is clearly "hiding" their models to take under-sized units or has a suspicious amount of under-sized unit, then no, I would not play them. This will likely be very clear.
If a player clearly looks like they just got started (mostly unpainted minis, non-optimally built unit, etc) or want to try a new unit that they don't have the full number of, then absolutely I would play them.

I am surprised that this rule is getting so much attention. If you read the entire rule and apply what it says, you clearly cannot abuse it very well.

-

Ok so since apparently facts are trolling:

My answer is yes, I would play someone, because the rules say they may take undersized units, regardless of the context or "intent".

I'd play someone that uses an understrength unit, but I wouldn't play someone that's bringing a single conscript and a single guardsman just to fill out the 9CP detachment. I'd ask them to change their list to drop those 10 points into something else or leave the two loners out entirely.
I THINK I would probably rage quit if a TO'd allow that kind of stuff though, but I don't go to tournaments, and the only ones I participate in are our local gaming clubs events - and I'm pretty sure we're not going to allow it.

 Galef wrote:
If someone is taking the minimum 1 model per unit TYPE to get more CPs, what is the rest of the army made of????

In the OP's example of 1 Grot, 1 Boy, 1 Orderly, how does he take other troops? If they field other Grot and Boy units don't they HAVE to consolidate those in the same unit?
Meaning it should be against the rules to have 3x 20 Boyz and then a 4th unit of 1? You can put that 1 boy into any of your other units, so it cannot qualify as an understrength unit (because you have other models, so you must use them per the rule)

If someone is clearly "hiding" their models to take under-sized units or has a suspicious amount of under-sized unit, then no, I would not play them. This will likely be very clear.
If a player clearly looks like they just got started (mostly unpainted minis, non-optimally built unit, etc) or want to try a new unit that they don't have the full number of, then absolutely I would play them.

I am surprised that this rule is getting so much attention. If you read the entire rule and apply what it says, you clearly cannot abuse it very well.

-

This was the list that annoyed me enough to start this thread:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/731436.page

 Galef wrote:
If someone is taking the minimum 1 model per unit TYPE to get more CPs, what is the rest of the army made of????

In the OP's example of 1 Grot, 1 Boy, 1 Orderly, how does he take other troops? If they field other Grot and Boy units don't they HAVE to consolidate those in the same unit?
Meaning it should be against the rules to have 3x 20 Boyz and then a 4th unit of 1? You can put that 1 boy into any of your other units, so it cannot qualify as an understrength unit (because you have other models, so you must use them per the rule)

If someone is clearly "hiding" their models to take under-sized units or has a suspicious amount of under-sized unit, then no, I would not play them. This will likely be very clear.
If a player clearly looks like they just got started (mostly unpainted minis, non-optimally built unit, etc) or want to try a new unit that they don't have the full number of, then absolutely I would play them.

I am surprised that this rule is getting so much attention. If you read the entire rule and apply what it says, you clearly cannot abuse it very well.

-

Have 3 units of regular strength and 1 unit of understrength, that's what the rules tell you is allowed.
I personally would say that having 6 Tactical Marines and running it as 5 and 1 isn't what that rule is intended for, just run it as 6 marines in a squad. If you have a fixed squad size though, eg an Infantry Squad, and have 12 Guardsmen that you want to field - that's what the rule is meant to support. But that's just my opinion, it's not a rule.

I can understand that depending on how points fall, you might want to go a couple models short.
I think it is reasonable for one unit to be understrength for someone to draw that nice line at staying at the agreed points or lower.

Now, say I am playing a "competitive" level: does it let me play these tiny units all I want?
Yes? So there is an advantage to this? Alrighty then, prepare to field a ton of small units.
It is only reasonable that a rule "exploit" will be played to the max by my creative competitive friends.
We always allowed and "enjoyed" showcasing a nasty rule exploit to the max, laugh, cry and vow never to play it that way ever again (insert house-rules usually made like tournament ones).

This showcasing can then be posted all over the place in the hopes that those with any rules authority will FAQ that problem to death.

Now, "refusing to play" is a long stretch from being a "cheater" as BaconCatBug would propose (how is that cheating? Really?).
I think it is a nice courtesy if someone feels strongly enough against a game rule to not play those who wish to exploit it.
More casual play tends to not play well with competitive and vice versa so it always is good to know (though a truly competitive person would never refuse play unless the person is a known cheater in the proper sense).

I hate to say that the title to this thread is very much a "scrub" question
(A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about).
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

I do understand that 40k for many is like a sandbox RPG army kind of thing.
Recreating epic battles from the books is an easy thing to try to get behind.
This particular rule when taken to the max like many rules is "immersion breaking", so you have my sympathy in that regard.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Galef wrote:
If someone is taking the minimum 1 model per unit TYPE to get more CPs, what is the rest of the army made of????

In the OP's example of 1 Grot, 1 Boy, 1 Orderly, how does he take other troops? If they field other Grot and Boy units don't they HAVE to consolidate those in the same unit?
Meaning it should be against the rules to have 3x 20 Boyz and then a 4th unit of 1? You can put that 1 boy into any of your other units, so it cannot qualify as an understrength unit (because you have other models, so you must use them per the rule)

If someone is clearly "hiding" their models to take under-sized units or has a suspicious amount of under-sized unit, then no, I would not play them. This will likely be very clear.
If a player clearly looks like they just got started (mostly unpainted minis, non-optimally built unit, etc) or want to try a new unit that they don't have the full number of, then absolutely I would play them.

I am surprised that this rule is getting so much attention. If you read the entire rule and apply what it says, you clearly cannot abuse it very well.

-

This was the list that annoyed me enough to start this thread:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/731436.page

But he has another Big Mek in that same list that doesn't have an oiler. Therefore, he cannot take that oiler by itself and must take it with the Big Mek he has

-

Meh. Whatever. If I win I'd be less gracious and if I lose I'd devalue their victory. An opponent doing dumb crap like that just makes a win that much sweeter.

However, as a community I do think we should take a stand against shenanigans like this at organized events.

There's a lot of answers that fit me, but I said "Yes, but only in competitive games".

If someone has an army and we're playing for fun, and he's got an undersized unit, I'll definitely let him if he's doing it because he doesn't own all of them. I myself am a good example of this; I have 2 Venomthropes because I bought them when you got only 1 per pack. I don't want to buy 3 of them not to have a minimum sized unit. Same thing for my Zoanthropes.

However, I am assuming you're talking about playing against undersized units in a way that someone's trying to take advantage of it. In this case, I'd say no, only doing in competitive games. Why then? Because it's a competitive game and those are the rules. In a tournament, you're allowed to do what the rules say, and they FAQ'd it that you can, so therefore you can. I would look down on it, but they're my opponent and they're playing by the rules, so I wouldn't have any leg to stand on in opposing them. EDIT: Actually, I wouldn't even look down on them, because it's a tournament. They're allowed to do whatever they want to win so long as it follows the rules.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Galef wrote:
If someone is taking the minimum 1 model per unit TYPE to get more CPs, what is the rest of the army made of????

In the OP's example of 1 Grot, 1 Boy, 1 Orderly, how does he take other troops? If they field other Grot and Boy units don't they HAVE to consolidate those in the same unit?
Meaning it should be against the rules to have 3x 20 Boyz and then a 4th unit of 1? You can put that 1 boy into any of your other units, so it cannot qualify as an understrength unit (because you have other models, so you must use them per the rule)

If someone is clearly "hiding" their models to take under-sized units or has a suspicious amount of under-sized unit, then no, I would not play them. This will likely be very clear.
If a player clearly looks like they just got started (mostly unpainted minis, non-optimally built unit, etc) or want to try a new unit that they don't have the full number of, then absolutely I would play them.

I am surprised that this rule is getting so much attention. If you read the entire rule and apply what it says, you clearly cannot abuse it very well.

-

This was the list that annoyed me enough to start this thread:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/731436.page

You're welcome.

 Galef wrote:

But he has another Big Mek in that same list that doesn't have an oiler. Therefore, he cannot take that oiler by itself and must take it with the Big Mek he has

-

You do realise Big Mek and Big Mek in Mega Armour are different units, right? Please try and have the rules right before making such sweeping statements. And Even if it wasn't, you can have 1 understrength unit of each type even if you have others that are not understrength

 Galef wrote:

But he has another Big Mek in that same list that doesn't have an oiler. Therefore, he cannot take that oiler by itself and must take it with the Big Mek he has

-

But that's where the rules lawyering comes into it: he says he has a grot oiler but not a Big Mek in Mega-armour so he takes the BM in MA as an understrength unit, the second Big Mek lacks MA and is therefore a different type of unit so is not considered when deciding whether you can field the Big Mek in MA as understrength.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

This was the list that annoyed me enough to start this thread:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/731436.page

You're welcome.

My gratitude.

I've played a game with a 4-man bloodbride squad to put in a venom with my Succubus. I followed all the rules of having a 4-man squad (so I didn't get a special weapon as they're 1 per 5) and my oppoennt had no problem with it.

This question seems to be kind of like "would you play someone running unbound/superheavies/competitive faction of the month" - the real underlying question is "Are they being a WAAC dick about it/only doing it to gain in-game advantage, or do they have some other reason?"

I want to run 4 bloodbrides because there's no other fluffy escort unit for a Succubus that fits in a venom. Everything that used to be min squad size 3 is now min size 5.

As soon as the word "exploit" or "abuse" turns up in a rule discussion, I'm pretty sure my way of playing 40K isn't going to work well with their way.

When someone is trying to manipulate the rules to do something not intended outside of the playtest process then I will not play with them.

I am currently in a situation where the group I thought I was playing with has allowed the SM players to convince them that the PR system is the way to go. They have done this to hide expensive upgrades in the simplified PR system. The other night a Wolves vs Ork battle took place with 50 PR but when the lists were held up to actual points the SMs had 1006 points to the Orks 856. Guess who won? I will have nothing to do with those shenanigans either. I may need to find a new playgroup...