Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is a purely theoretical tourney list, which I am enticed to make because modelling it and playing it would be absurd. It is built around the 10" moving Decimator sporting twin 24" Soulburner Petards. They are Assault 2D3 each and for each hit, they cause a mortal wound. If you roll a hit of 1, you suffer a mortal wound (but can only happen once per phase no matter how many 1's are rolled). Even still, it heals a wound each turn and is backed up by a 5++. Behind them rolls a 8" move Hellwright on a Dark Abeyant. They also heal one wound a turn themselves and can repair via Master of Mechanism up to d3 wounds to a Daemon Engine. Or they can 2+ cause a Mortal wound to a vehicle within 18" (once per turn total per enemy vehicle). They also have a decent bit of firepower in the Voidcutter and Warpfire Lance and of course, their own Soulburner Pistol, for more mortal wound love!

Backing these dudes up are a trio of Daemon Princes with Wings. They provide a counter-assault element as well as a re-roll bubble for the Decimators! Another Decimator accompanies them for a total of SEVEN. That is a minimum of 28 mortal wounds being dished out per turn by the Decimators, with a max of 84 (highly unlikely). Average is about 8 shots per, so 50 mortal wounds (with re-rolls) a turn at 34" (because they are assault). That seems... unpleasant. The Nurgle option for the DP gives them 5+ FNP and the Tzeentch bumps their Invuln. Not sure which is statistically better, but both would be fun to model.

Oh yea and 10 Cultists sit in the backfield in case objectives matter. They hide and do nothing else! Plus, it was the exact points I had left after the good stuff.

Sitting at 5CP total for the list:

Vanguard Detachment

HQ:
Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant
Infernal Axe, Mechatendrils, Voidcutter, Flamer, Soulburner Pistol, Warpfire Lance
[178]

Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant
Infernal Axe, Mechatendrils, Voidcutter, Flamer, Soulburner Pistol, Warpfire Lance
[178]

Elites:
Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Troops:
(10) Cultists
Heavy Stubber
[54]

[1310]

Supreme Command

HQ:
Daemon Prince of Chaos w/ Wings
Twin Talons [Tzeentch or Nurgle?]
[180]

Daemon Prince of Chaos w/ Wings
Twin Talons [Tzeentch or Nurgle?]
[180]

Daemon Prince of Chaos w/ Wings
Twin Talons [Tzeentch or Nurgle?]
[180]

Elites:
Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

[690]

[2000]

Thoughts? Ideas? Rip it apart. Help me save myself from this potential list and its expense by talking me out of it!

I love decimators, don't get me wrong. My usual loadout is two with soulburners, 3 giant spawn, magnus (9" reroll ones to hit and invuln) and the changeling (makes decimators and magnus -1 to hit) all pushing together. My concern with this list is their durability. T7 with 8 wounds isn't very durable given the changes to wounding and damage values. What's your counter to alpha strikes? Or turn one charges?

Nurgle is better for the princes as it adds a 33% chance to save and can be taken against mortal wounds (I believe), whilst tzeentch only adds 16.6%. If you're looking to run that many decimators, I'd strongly recommend taking the changeling and arranging them so that they're all (or most) touching his 6" bubble as it'll go a long way towards keeping them alive.

So some folk at my shop have been playing with this core idea of spam Decimators (because mortal wounds are the best).

Magnus gives better bonuses to the engines.
And the Changeling makes them harder to hit.
And backed up by 80 Brims makes board control absurd.

do you own all those decimators?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
So some folk at my shop have been playing with this core idea of spam Decimators (because mortal wounds are the best).

Magnus gives better bonuses to the engines.
And the Changeling makes them harder to hit.
And backed up by 80 Brims makes board control absurd.

why magnus give better bonus? can they belong to thousand sons army list so they get reroll 1 and reroll inv saves?

They can belong to thousand sons and to a chaos god, and so can get buffs from both astartes and daemons.

Oooof. Brutal ideas folks. I will look at this list and work in those ideas.

I've been looking at using them in a Dark Mech army with a chaos sorcerer to make it move again in the psychic phase. Haven't found a list that I liked with it yet but they and hellwrights are really cool

List with suggestions factored in (as best as I can):

Vanguard Detachment

HQ:
The Changeling
[100]

Elites:
Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Troops:
(12) Brimstone Horrors
[24]

(12) Brimstone Horrors
[24]

Supreme Command Detachment:

HQ:
Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant
[178]

Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant
[178]

Daemon Prince of Chaos w/ Wings
Twin Talons [Tzeentch]
[180]

Lord of War:
Magnus the Red
[415]

[1999]

Magnus, Changeling and a bunch of Decimators. The Daemon Prince is because it is a solid counter-assault unit. The Hellwrights keep the Decimators alive. Had to drop one Decimator and dropped the Cultists for some Brimstones (as many as I could fit). They will be strung out as a screen against first turn charges - with 2" coherency, I can cover a large area to protect myself.

How does that look?

How are decimators allowed in 1000 sons? 1000 Sons have a strict unit allowance and Decimators are not listed in it.

"The heretic Astartes listed to the right can be from Thousand Sons legion. Those that have <legion> keyword cab replace it with Thousand sons. If a Heretic Astartes unit does not appear to in a list to the right, it cannot have Thousand Sons keyword"

Decimators have Heretic Astartes key word, and not on the Eligible Thousand son list. No buff from Magnus. But can still be Tzeentch, so RR 1's to hit still from DP of TZ, and -1 to hit from Changling.

FW have said that all IA chaos units will be available to TS and DG. Expect confirmation next week when the FAQ drops.

Because they're not from the chaos index, and so wouldn't be listed there. They're from the FW index.

Tsilber wrote:
How are decimators allowed in 1000 sons? 1000 Sons have a strict unit allowance and Decimators are not listed in it.

"The heretic Astartes listed to the right can be from Thousand Sons legion. Those that have <legion> keyword cab replace it with Thousand sons. If a Heretic Astartes unit does not appear to in a list to the right, it cannot have Thousand Sons keyword"

Decimators have Heretic Astartes key word, and not on the Eligible Thousand son list. No buff from Magnus. But can still be Tzeentch, so RR 1's to hit still from DP of TZ, and -1 to hit from Changling.

Except FW units aren't listed in the Index. So that creates a bit of a rules conundrum. As Captyn_Bob said, hopefully an FAQ makes this official.

I think the list cranks out so many mortal wounds it would be staggering for anything beyond tourney play. Getting just about zero saves against an army sounds very unfun.

That being said... if this does go official from FW via a FAQ, it doesn't take a hard to twist to justify the army as it would let me paint a bunch of big stuff and what infantry there is can be airbrushed quickly.

Any thoughts on this latest iteration?

I think that you'd have a better chance of winning if you dropped one of the hellwrights in place of a sh it tonne of brimstones. Complimenting your heavy-hitting elite-style army with a horde of brimstones for objectives and bubblewrap will seriously mess up your opponents target priority (does he go for the pumped up decimators tearing through his army that'll make his bs worse if he shoots them, or Magnus whos eyeing up his super-heavy for a charge, or does he go for the 100+ brimstones conga lined across the board so that they're within range of the changeling and their objectives). Right now, 24 brimstones and two hellwrights won't be as effective as 100+ brimstones and one hellwright. You'd be able to rework this into a battalion, vanguard and SH auxiliary easily too.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
FW have said that all IA chaos units will be available to TS and DG. Expect confirmation next week when the FAQ drops.

This is the only thing that changes or supersedes the rules I quoted above.

Let me start off by saying I play Magnus /Tzeentch and I am all for Decimators getting Tsons Legion approval. But just because the unit is not in a book, or comes from a different source, it does not mean the Rule under Thousand sons at this time changes or makes way to allow FW book. The rules under Thousands sons, does not say "In this Chaos Index", It does not speak of 1 source/book. It says what I wrote above, Heretic Astarte's can not have Thousand Son Legion if they are not in this list. It is written clear as day. The new Index from GW and the Forgeworld AI have been written for some time now, they were written around the same time. If any special rules made exception to any other special rules GW/FW had plenty of time to add it into either of the books. If they choose to do an FAQ now, again, I am all for it.

But back to the list at hand, Decimators are solid, but hoard armies might not care about taking 20-30 mortal wounds a turn, as they might already be playing an army that gets little to no saves as is. You need some volume of fire IMO. Throw a couple of rapiers in the mix.

Lancelot185 wrote:
I think that you'd have a better chance of winning if you dropped one of the hellwrights in place of a sh it tonne of brimstones. Complimenting your heavy-hitting elite-style army with a horde of brimstones for objectives and bubblewrap will seriously mess up your opponents target priority (does he go for the pumped up decimators tearing through his army that'll make his bs worse if he shoots them, or Magnus whos eyeing up his super-heavy for a charge, or does he go for the 100+ brimstones conga lined across the board so that they're within range of the changeling and their objectives). Right now, 24 brimstones and two hellwrights won't be as effective as 100+ brimstones and one hellwright. You'd be able to rework this into a battalion, vanguard and SH auxiliary easily too.

The problem then is that I am forced into a single deathstar just about always. With the Daemon Prince and second Hellwright, I can send off 2-3 Decimators along with them to go take something pesky elsewehere, while I drive Magnus/Changeling towards some other key objective or enemy.

Hellwrights + Decimator recovery means +2W per turn, with recovering 3-4 possible. So they are required to focus fire on them to kill them in a single round or they will recharge. So that is another reason to take them.

Also, who wants to put that many Brimstones on the table? I mean yea... that is probably way more competitive. But jeez, is the list not mean enough!?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Lancelot185 wrote:
I think that you'd have a better chance of winning if you dropped one of the hellwrights in place of a sh it tonne of brimstones. Complimenting your heavy-hitting elite-style army with a horde of brimstones for objectives and bubblewrap will seriously mess up your opponents target priority (does he go for the pumped up decimators tearing through his army that'll make his bs worse if he shoots them, or Magnus whos eyeing up his super-heavy for a charge, or does he go for the 100+ brimstones conga lined across the board so that they're within range of the changeling and their objectives). Right now, 24 brimstones and two hellwrights won't be as effective as 100+ brimstones and one hellwright. You'd be able to rework this into a battalion, vanguard and SH auxiliary easily too.

The problem then is that I am forced into a single deathstar just about always. With the Daemon Prince and second Hellwright, I can send off 2-3 Decimators along with them to go take something pesky elsewehere, while I drive Magnus/Changeling towards some other key objective or enemy.

Hellwrights + Decimator recovery means +2W per turn, with recovering 3-4 possible. So they are required to focus fire on them to kill them in a single round or they will recharge. So that is another reason to take them.

Also, who wants to put that many Brimstones on the table? I mean yea... that is probably way more competitive. But jeez, is the list not mean enough!?

For one more healing source, if you made one of the Decimators Mark of Nurgle, you could take a 70 point Herald of Nurgle for another smite and or healing.
Also Cultist are pretty good now, IMO. The volume of Str 3 fire they put out, Rerolling 1's to hit, and wounding T5 on 5's is not bad, and low points, and bodies to hold.

Anyone who wants to take this further into the realm of cheese can feel free to mix Marks... but I wouldn't. I would go themed with Tzeentch probably. It would be quite satisfying to paint up all those wild, wacky blue-spectrum colors.

Whilst there is ambiguity regarding whether they can or can't, the more logical conclusion is that they are allowed, and the restrictions listed in the chaos index are simply referring to the units in that book (since when have codexes cited other codexes?). If this is not the case, then 1k sons can't take any of the FW heretic astartes stuff - which, if nothing else, is bad marketing. Additionally, helbrutes are viable to take, and there are numerous parallels between helbrutes and decimators - the key distinction in this context is that they aren't in the chaos index, and so, wouldn't receive any mention in it.

Look at the wording in the rule, too: "the Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right" - so, it is only referring to the units in the heretic astartes section of the chaos index. Decimators fall under the Daemon Bound section, which is not mentioned at all in the 1k sons rules (obviously, as it isn't in the same book). Unless explicitly stated, there is no reason that these unaligned FW models (not blood slaughterers etc) can't be taken with thousand sons (hellforged predators, contemptors and deredeo's etc).

Also, who wants to put that many Brimstones on the table? I mean yea... that is probably way more competitive. But jeez, is the list not mean enough!?

I thought that that's what we're going for WAAC competitive style.

As someone that owns 3 Decimators from years ago... I approve of this list

But seriously, Decimators rock this ed. Use it before it gets nerfed because Chaos deserves some time in the spotlight after years of being nerfed into oblivion.

Lancelot185 wrote:
Whilst there is ambiguity regarding whether they can or can't, the more logical conclusion is that they are allowed, and the restrictions listed in the chaos index are simply referring to the units in that book (since when have codexes cited other codexes?). If this is not the case, then 1k sons can't take any of the FW heretic astartes stuff - which, if nothing else, is bad marketing. Additionally, helbrutes are viable to take, and there are numerous parallels between helbrutes and decimators - the key distinction in this context is that they aren't in the chaos index, and so, wouldn't receive any mention in it.

Look at the wording in the rule, too: "the Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right" - so, it is only referring to the units in the heretic astartes section of the chaos index. Decimators fall under the Daemon Bound section, which is not mentioned at all in the 1k sons rules (obviously, as it isn't in the same book). Unless explicitly stated, there is no reason that these unaligned FW models (not blood slaughterers etc) can't be taken with thousand sons (hellforged predators, contemptors and deredeo's etc).

Also, who wants to put that many Brimstones on the table? I mean yea... that is probably way more competitive. But jeez, is the list not mean enough!?

I thought that that's what we're going for WAAC competitive style.

I understand what you are saying, It makes sense. But Rules as written, I simply agree to disagree on the matter. Appreciate the feedback and your position on it. Shall we get back to the list itself?


So , as for taking multiple marks as cheese... Yeah you dont want to be to cheezy, 30 mortals wounds a turn is good. Using Multiple Marks of Gods in a list is definitely crossing the line

Their is a lot of fluff and Books from Heresy Era to modern 40k, that have multiple Legions and different Deamon units from different Gods working together to purge the enemy. Just a suggestion.

I think going for pure Tzeentch is probably the best anyhow. You get all those buff bubbles that will help keep the Decimators going strong. So adding more marks isn't just cheese, but kinda seems less important from a WAAC perspective too.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I think going for pure Tzeentch is probably the best anyhow. You get all those buff bubbles that will help keep the Decimators going strong. So adding more marks isn't just cheese, but kinda seems less important from a WAAC perspective too.

Oh I am just messing with ya mate. I was only throwing in another healing source as suggestion. I can tell ya the Hellwrights are really good, they have decent fire power, and no joke in combat.
Add some additional volume of fire would be my own suggestion.

Tsilber wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I think going for pure Tzeentch is probably the best anyhow. You get all those buff bubbles that will help keep the Decimators going strong. So adding more marks isn't just cheese, but kinda seems less important from a WAAC perspective too.

Oh I am just messing with ya mate. I was only throwing in another healing source as suggestion. I can tell ya the Hellwrights are really good, they have decent fire power, and no joke in combat.
Add some additional volume of fire would be my own suggestion.

I know you are messing!

As for firepower... There is the rub. To add literally anything, I have to cut major components.

That being said, the Hellforged Rapier w/ Quad Heavy Bolter clocks in at 82 points. They crank out TWELVE S5 AP-1 shots each. Kinda gross and they likely won't see much return fire.


HQ:
The Changeling
[100]

Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant
[178]

Elites:
Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Troops:
(20) Brimstone Horrors
[40]

(20) Brimstone Horrors
[40]

(20) Brimstone Horrors
[40]

(20) Brimstone Horrors
[40]

Heavy:
Hellforged Rapier Battery
Quad Heavy Bolters
[82]

Hellforged Rapier Battery
Quad Heavy Bolters
[82]

Hellforged Rapier Battery
Quad Heavy Bolters
[82]

Lord of War:
Magnus the Red
[415]

[1999]

So, now it is a Battalion. That means one more CP. On top of that, yea... one less Hellwright and dropped the DP. This forces the list to be a bit more deathstar style, but that hardly means as much in 8th Ed. Also, up to 80 Horrors for major board control. That means more Smites for more Mortal Wound goodness.

I think the list is looking more and more cheesy... so mission accomplished?

You could start looking at renegade stuff for cheap firepower and durability. Wyverns, marauders (2x bs3+ snipers/plasma/flamers/grenade launchers with stalker rule and almost immune to moral with 3 ablative wounds), earthshaker batteries, heavy weapon command squads (44 pts for a bs3+ missile launcher or lascannon with 3 ablative wounds), etc.

Edit: the list is looking pretty good now, with effective counters for most everything.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Tsilber wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I think going for pure Tzeentch is probably the best anyhow. You get all those buff bubbles that will help keep the Decimators going strong. So adding more marks isn't just cheese, but kinda seems less important from a WAAC perspective too.

Oh I am just messing with ya mate. I was only throwing in another healing source as suggestion. I can tell ya the Hellwrights are really good, they have decent fire power, and no joke in combat.
Add some additional volume of fire would be my own suggestion.

I know you are messing!

As for firepower... There is the rub. To add literally anything, I have to cut major components.

That being said, the Hellforged Rapier w/ Quad Heavy Bolter clocks in at 82 points. They crank out TWELVE S5 AP-1 shots each. Kinda gross and they likely won't see much return fire.


HQ:
The Changeling
[100]

Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant
[178]

Elites:
Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Chaos Decimator
2x Soulburner Petard
[150]

Troops:
(20) Brimstone Horrors
[40]

(20) Brimstone Horrors
[40]

(20) Brimstone Horrors
[40]

(20) Brimstone Horrors
[40]

Heavy:
Hellforged Rapier Battery
Quad Heavy Bolters
[82]

Hellforged Rapier Battery
Quad Heavy Bolters
[82]

Hellforged Rapier Battery
Quad Heavy Bolters
[82]

Lord of War:
Magnus the Red
[415]

[1999]

So, now it is a Battalion. That means one more CP. On top of that, yea... one less Hellwright and dropped the DP. This forces the list to be a bit more deathstar style, but that hardly means as much in 8th Ed. Also, up to 80 Horrors for major board control. That means more Smites for more Mortal Wound goodness.

I think the list is looking more and more cheesy... so mission accomplished?

I think you have accomplished your mission. One more suggestion, you will most likely not like it. Cut to 5 decimators, take the aberant off the mount (like 50 points less). Cut to 3 brim stone units. And add 5-10 flamers of Tz. I was just re-reading the book for the 5th time.. and saw their flamers are "pistol". Brims hold in combat, Flamers shoot volume of fires into it.

EDIT: My list with MAG, some Tson units, 3 decimators and some other stuff, has just made room for 5 flamers, I honestly did not see their weapons were pistols.

battalion
Dp Tz wings double talons
tz herald with staff
changeling
4x20 horrors (19 brim 1 blue)
2 helldrakes

Low
Magnus

vanguard
1 hellwright on dark abeyant
3x decimator double soulburner petard

 blackmage wrote:
battalion
Dp Tz wings double talons
tz herald with staff
changeling
4x20 horrors (19 brim 1 blue)
2 helldrakes

Low
Magnus

vanguard
1 hellwright on dark abeyant
3x decimator double soulburner petard

Why? Helldrakes look so underwhelming to me.

3 Decimators? That hardly keeps to the concept of lobbing out ~50-60 Mortal Wounds a turn.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
battalion
Dp Tz wings double talons
tz herald with staff
changeling
4x20 horrors (19 brim 1 blue)
2 helldrakes

Low
Magnus

vanguard
1 hellwright on dark abeyant
3x decimator double soulburner petard

Why? Helldrakes look so underwhelming to me.

3 Decimators? That hardly keeps to the concept of lobbing out ~50-60 Mortal Wounds a turn.

pretty more equilibrated, with 80 horrors i control obj end backfield, drakes help Magnus in 1st turn assault, useless tryong to deny some heavy fire threating my decimators, have 50+ mortal wounds a turn and be overrun by 150+ orks/tyr/Ig with no chances to control objectives is not so great, if i need i can keep anything behind the wall of brims no risk to be charged and keep dealing wounds, the Dp works fine with both hellwraight and decimators make them re roll 1, cause most of times Magnus will be too far away from decimators, i know is not a spam cause i dont like extreme spam, btw if i had 5-6 decimators i would try ur list, when i make a list i always try to do something i m sure i could play, useless for me make a list which i know i will never be able to play, my 2 cents.

now with new FW faq you need change many things each petard now cost 60 not 30, so each decimator now is 210.

 blackmage wrote:
now with new FW faq you need change many things each petard now cost 60 not 30, so each decimator now is 210.

Good news, thanks!