Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

20 points - of flat out trash. Why are they -1 to hit? High str is not what it used to be - there is no more instant death. And D3 damage? 1/3 of the time this weapon is going to deal 1 damage. For 20 points?
Chain fist costs more and just does flat 2 damage?
Why does GW do everything it can to make terms suck?

For 20 points a power fist should be as follows. 2x str - ap-4 damage 2.
The chainfist should be the exact same with +1 to wound.

Because being able to wound easier and having high -AP is a really big deal this edition and if it was any better it would be an auto include for everything that could take it?

 Xenomancers wrote:
there is no more instant death

Thank frickity-frack knick-knack for that. That one rule made every Skitarii into chicken meat. It was a rule that almost didn't affect most armies at all, and completely screwed a few.

Because infantry vs vehicles.

Chainfist isn't really an 'upgrade' like it used to be for power firsts, where it was (in 7th) intended as an even more anti-vehicle focused powerfist.

The chainfist, power fist, and thunder hammer are more different takes on the same family of weapons, like power axes/swords/mauls are now.

Power fist and thunder hammer are even the same point value - and the chainfist is only 2 points more, likely due to its higher Ap over the other two options.

Strength may not be huge thanks to the removal of instant death, it's still important - particularly when it comes to melee-busting vehicles and monsters. It helps against other MEQ too, letting you wound on a 2+ instead of a 3+. Not huge, again, but every little bit helps.

And now Terminators are a T4 W2 2+/5++ model that didn't rise substantially in points cost.

Because its one of the few weapons that can wound stuff on a 2+, which is a rarity this edition. Also, you have an equal chance of inflicting 2 or 3 damage as 1.

1 damage on a d3 = 33.3%
2 damage on a d3 = 33.3%
3 damage on a d3 = 33.3%

You also have a greater chance of inflicting more than 1 damage = 66.6% to deal at least 2 damage

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Purifier wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
there is no more instant death

Thank frickity-frack knick-knack for that. That one rule made every Skitarii into chicken meat. It was a rule that almost didn't affect most armies at all, and completely screwed a few.

Yeah, instant death wasn't great. Just a single point of strength could make all the difference between losing 1 wound to losing all wounds, and they had to introduce more rules to counteract that.
It was a really binary system that didn't quite work out. The damage system they have now is more elegant.

here's why it is expensive:

Powerfist wounding an IK in 7th: strike last, Hit on 3s, Glance on 5s, pen on 6s.

Powerfist wounding an IK in 8th: strike first, Hit on 4s(or 3s if youre a captain-type guy with 2+ws), wound on 4s, D3 damage.

Also, it's worth noting that all powerfists aren't made equal now. Guard power fists, since they're only S6, only cost 10pts now, and I take them on many of my characters for the simple reason that powerfists are fun.

Powerfist isn't bad for a character with 5 attacks that already hits on 2's. 20 points for a powerfist on him is pretty good. Though I'd argue you'd be better with a relic blade vs just about anything that isn't t4.

Paying 20 points for a powerfist on a model with 2 attacks and WS3+ is abolsute gak. I'm sure this isn't the only situation in 40k where particular models are paying too much for a weapon but this one REALLY stands out.

I also don't get how anyone can complain about -1 to hit on power fists. Ok, so most decent melee combatants hit on 4s, unless you have buffs or auras that improve it. Last edition, they still hit most things on 4s, but always went last.

For orks, power klaws hitting first are a morksend.

As for instant death, I'm glad its gone. And don't get me wrong, many a time I've squished a T4 marine captain with a power klaw, but it always felt a little cheap.

Xenomancers... I think you need to look up the meaning of the word "trash".

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Purifier wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
there is no more instant death

Thank frickity-frack knick-knack for that. That one rule made every Skitarii into chicken meat. It was a rule that almost didn't affect most armies at all, and completely screwed a few.

Yeah, instant death wasn't great. Just a single point of strength could make all the difference between losing 1 wound to losing all wounds, and they had to introduce more rules to counteract that.
It was a really binary system that didn't quite work out. The damage system they have now is more elegant.

The root problem was that the game had a few of these binary things, and the prevalence of the things that used them was balanced around T4 3+save models.
Getting AP3 was so hard, that most guns that got that far would usually be AP2 anti tank weapons. Which is why Terminators were so useless. Any weapon made to kill MEQ was also great at killing TEQ. Survivability was almost the same, points cost was not. And when a big AP3 flamer entered the game on the Heldrake, the community went berserk. It was hated. In the same way, getting S8 was something mostly reserved to weapons with very few shots at a high cost. Getting S6 was handed out like candy, so the difference in survivability between T3 and T4 was terrible. Add on to that how the Skitarii had a defensive selling point of a 6+ FNP... which didn't work against Instant Death... yeah, might as well have no saves most of the time.

But hey, at least we had really nice guns, and that's more than many armies can say.

The power fists right now are pretty damn decent. I find that my Cybernetica Datasmith contributes to the fight decently when my Kastelans get attacked, thanks to his power fist.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I also don't get how anyone can complain about -1 to hit on power fists. Ok, so most decent melee combatants hit on 4s, unless you have buffs or auras that improve it. Last edition, they still hit most things on 4s, but always went last.

For orks, power klaws hitting first are a morksend.

As for instant death, I'm glad its gone. And don't get me wrong, many a time I've squished a T4 marine captain with a power klaw, but it always felt a little cheap.

Initiative isn't a thing anymore. You can still strike last with a power fist - if you didn't charge. You are however always -1 to hit AND usually doing significantly less damage (when you factor in how many wounds things have now) then you used to with a power-fist. AP2 flat out ignored regular armor saves - could also 1 shot vehicles with a 6 on a pen. Also worth noting most units that took powerfists were probably striking simo or last anyways. There is 0 reason with that weapon profile to be -1 to hit.

There is a reason, actually. Its a big weight on your hand that you punch with. Of course its going to hard to hit something with it.
Also, balance.

Man, and here I was thinking they were going to get sprinkled out everywhere. I know I've been planning on doing so. AP -3, no longer attacking last? Sign me up.

Of course, I only pay 10 points each for them. Still gratifying to watch a Commissar uppercut a wraithlord to death though.

the tradeoff use to be all that power to hit last... now you are not hitting last, there had to be a tradeoff. power fists/claws are still quite good. especially on captaisn and characters hitting on 2's and with a lot of attacks. still I think worth it on any model with 2 attacks as they average 1 hit if hitting on a 4+ and are likely to inflict damage. plus it is very worth a command point often to reroll the wound if needed.

If you think strength doesn't matter, try using powerfists on an S3 army vs your S4 army...

 Xenomancers wrote:
20 points - of flat out trash. Why are they -1 to hit? High str is not what it used to be - there is no more instant death. And D3 damage? 1/3 of the time this weapon is going to deal 1 damage. For 20 points?
Chain fist costs more and just does flat 2 damage?
Why does GW do everything it can to make terms suck?

For 20 points a power fist should be as follows. 2x str - ap-4 damage 2.
The chainfist should be the exact same with +1 to wound.

Sorry disagree with every staement here

The new range of power weapons give actual choice between which one to use - Power Fists are good, especially on characters who are often hitting on 3+

The -1 to hit is called BALANCE

I think the real question is more like why are other power weapons so cheap.

TBH, the -1 to hit is way better than hitting last.

 Melissia wrote:
TBH, the -1 to hit is way better than hitting last.

Agreed, particularly since there's so many ways to offset that somewhat with reroll 1's/extra attacks.

If there was a way to offset I1 before, I'm not aware of what it was.

Part of the reason Power Fists are so expensive is because they can be taken by so many Inperium models. Your average Veteran Seargeant is now a free upgrade to a 13 point model. Giving him a Power Fist makes the squad a lot nastier in CC.

Meanwhile a DE Succubus gets her Archite Glaive for the low cost of free, and is yet nastier in CC.

There's also the fact that Power Fists and co. are really good weapons for Space Marines. A weapon that puts your Strength to 8 AND has a -3 AP value AND does D3 damage per wound roll with only a -1 to hit penalty should cost 20 points.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I also don't get how anyone can complain about -1 to hit on power fists. Ok, so most decent melee combatants hit on 4s, unless you have buffs or auras that improve it. Last edition, they still hit most things on 4s, but always went last.

For orks, power klaws hitting first are a morksend.

As for instant death, I'm glad its gone. And don't get me wrong, many a time I've squished a T4 marine captain with a power klaw, but it always felt a little cheap.

Initiative isn't a thing anymore. You can still strike last with a power fist - if you didn't charge. You are however always -1 to hit AND usually doing significantly less damage (when you factor in how many wounds things have now) then you used to with a power-fist. AP2 flat out ignored regular armor saves - could also 1 shot vehicles with a 6 on a pen. Also worth noting most units that took powerfists were probably striking simo or last anyways. There is 0 reason with that weapon profile to be -1 to hit.

Like it or not, powerfists are priced based on the fact that characters can take them, like a Captain with WS2+ and 4 attacks base. Should they be cheaper on 2A WS3+ terminators? I'm not sure, but it is worth noting that an extra 5 points is built into the identical body of an Assault Terminator to offset the 5-point discount on the Thunder Hammer he carries. In the instance where you're, say, a Wolf Guard power armor guy and you have the option of fist or hammer, obviously the hammer is a no-brainer there, but for terminators when you factor in the five points fists and hammers are pretty balanced against each other.

For Marines, this means yeah, they're likely not worthwhile on standard tactical sergeants or librarians, but they are very worthwhile on captains, who hit on 3s with rerolls of 1s.

Against your standard "character champion type dude with 5++ invuln and 3+ armor" the math is:

Chain Sword: .81 Unsaved Wounds
Power Sword (4pts): 1.3 unsaved wounds
Power Fist (20pts) 3.33 unsaved wounds

Is it perfect scaling for the cost? No, but this isn't even factoring in the fact that the fist can hurt vehicles and the sword deals a measley 1 wound vs rhinos.

Why do you assume power-fist are always going first - they aren't - they are always -1 to hit though. So if that's the trade off - it's obviously a bad one. I'd be happy to hit last and have a weapon you can actually hit with.

Of course its a bad trade off. That's the point of a trade off. If it wasn't a downside, it wouldn't be a trade off, now would it?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Of course its a bad trade off. That's the point of a trade off. If it wasn't a downside, it wouldn't be a trade off, now would it?

That's not what a trade off is - a trade off implies an even give and take. Yet you can still strike last with a power fist and you are always -1 to hit / that is a always give and sometimes take.

They are better than last edition by quite a lot. Now maybe you thought they sucked then too, but, it is almost not even arguable that they are better now.

So your points - they hit on a 4+ on most models, they did this last edition too. Terminators hit anything WS4 or higher on a 4+ last edition.

Instant death vs D3 wounds, Power fists are now better against any model T5 or higher, than they were in 7th (as far as wounds dealt), they are worse against multi wound T4 or less infantry. They are slightly worse against T5 and 6 Single wound models.

They are much better on any platform that isn't durable, in 7th challenges meant they died before that could attack as often as not on fragile infantry models.

They do more wounds than a power sword against most things, especially multi-wound models. They are just way more expensive. So yeah probably not really worth it on sergeants unless you intend to vehicle hunt with the squad.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Of course its a bad trade off. That's the point of a trade off. If it wasn't a downside, it wouldn't be a trade off, now would it?

That's not what a trade off is - a trade off implies an even give and take. Yet you can still strike last with a power fist and you are always -1 to hit / that is a always give and sometimes take.

So the multiple damage, double strength, and armor modifier isn't given? Because that's what the trade off is for.
You don't always strike last with a fist; if you charge, you strike first, if its your turn you can pick the power fist user to resolve his attacks first after all chargers have finished. That's 2 cases in which you can strike first with a powerfist, as opposed to earlier editions where you have 0 cases to strike before an enemy.

They get work done for me...but I also play power level so I don't care about the points minutia or the mathhammer of it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Of course its a bad trade off. That's the point of a trade off. If it wasn't a downside, it wouldn't be a trade off, now would it?

That's not what a trade off is - a trade off implies an even give and take. Yet you can still strike last with a power fist and you are always -1 to hit / that is a always give and sometimes take.

Id honestly argue that going last is far worse than having a -1 to hit.

especially against stronger dedicated combat units who if given the chance would make mincemeat of whatever unit you have with a power fist stuck in it.

And your champion cant be Challenged out anymore. Long live the hidden powerfist.

Powerfists on a Berzerker champion with a Dark Apostle nearby is money.