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 Latro_ wrote:
I think the real question is more like why are other power weapons so cheap.

Let's take point efficiency out of the thought process for a moment.

There is an upper limit to the number of weapons on the table. I can't take 5 power swords simply because I prefer that to one power fist. So, if according to the chart below we made power swords roughly 1/3 the cost of a power fist it wouldn't make them stand out as a meaningful choice would it?

my Veteran Vanguard squad is outfitted with 3x PS and 1x PA, with about 4x plasma pistols spread throughout, so far they are pretty good and taking down heretics

 Xenomancers wrote:
Powerfist isn't bad for a character with 5 attacks that already hits on 2's. 20 points for a powerfist on him is pretty good. Though I'd argue you'd be better with a relic blade vs just about anything that isn't t4.

Paying 20 points for a powerfist on a model with 2 attacks and WS3+ is abolsute gak. I'm sure this isn't the only situation in 40k where particular models are paying too much for a weapon but this one REALLY stands out.

Nah, I think it's just fine on my Plague Marine champions. And far better now than it was in 6th.

No more challenges - thus no more auto-challenging things i can't hurt or who will just murder me for free.
No more initiative - so not being penalised for Plague Marines having low initiative which really is the only reason I ended up taking Power Fists - end of the day in 6th and 7th I was I3 - striking after everyone anyway.
Actually stronger vs. vehicles so gives us a better fighting chance.
Can't be sniped out of units like they could before.

Oh, and did I mention they're actually cheaper than they were in 6th and 7th ed?

A -1 to hit. Big whoop. Why do people harp on about that like it's the end of the world? A SM sergeant type isn't going to care. And Orks/Carnifexes/General Horde types either have so many attacks it doesn't matter or have really cheap versions to counteract their impact -so essentially are just in case weapons for guard and the like.

 Fafnir wrote:
I'm just annoyed that Sisters pay the Space Marine cost for their Eviscerators while having Imperial Guard level Strength and Toughness. Eviscerators should be 12 points, not 22.

I agree with you entirely - point cost for weapons should be based on what units are taking it. That's how you balance a game.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
I think the real question is more like why are other power weapons so cheap.

Let's take point efficiency out of the thought process for a moment.

There is an upper limit to the number of weapons on the table. I can't take 5 power swords simply because I prefer that to one power fist. So, if according to the chart below we made power swords roughly 1/3 the cost of a power fist it wouldn't make them stand out as a meaningful choice would it?

I'm sorry but what does this mean? Versus T4 the PF gets 160 whilst the PS gets 60? What does that mean? 160 what?

 mrhappyface wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
I think the real question is more like why are other power weapons so cheap.

Let's take point efficiency out of the thought process for a moment.

There is an upper limit to the number of weapons on the table. I can't take 5 power swords simply because I prefer that to one power fist. So, if according to the chart below we made power swords roughly 1/3 the cost of a power fist it wouldn't make them stand out as a meaningful choice would it?

I'm sorry but what does this mean? Versus T4 the PF gets 160 whilst the PS gets 60? What does that mean? 160 what?

I agree - an unlabeled graph is just a bunch of lines that mean nothing.

 mrhappyface wrote:

I'm sorry but what does this mean? Versus T4 the PF gets 160 whilst the PS gets 60? What does that mean? 160 what?

It's a score based on a number of factors. The number is irrelevant as it's the comparison between the two since they've been put through the same math.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I agree with you entirely - point cost for weapons should be based on what units are taking it. That's how you balance a game.

That is largely how the game has been handled so far...

Daedalus81 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I agree with you entirely - point cost for weapons should be based on what units are taking it. That's how you balance a game.

That is largely how the game has been handled so far...

Except for sisters, who pay almost twice as much for their powerfist/chainfist analogue as other S3 units. Canoness are already woefully unloved in a faction that already has freaking Celestine. They don't need more reasons to be ignored.

There's also Inquisition, but that subfaction's already screwed to the point of near unplayability as it is, so having all their equipment being overcosted isn't even close to the first of their problems.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Add to that it's very easy to buff terminators with relatively cheap characters and you honestly have a situation where termies are in the best place competitively since at least fifth edition, and quite possibly better than that because back then it was really only assault terminators that were any good.

Where have you seen terminators used competitively in 8th? I don't see them in competitive games / lists, and when i've tried to run them they get blown off the table in seconds.

I'm running a competitive list involving Asterion and Terminators basically getting the charge more than half the time. Terminators are pretty darn good now, and I say that that as someone that's been playing the game since 4th edition and always said Terminators sucked. Now I can actually USE them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Add to that it's very easy to buff terminators with relatively cheap characters and you honestly have a situation where termies are in the best place competitively since at least fifth edition, and quite possibly better than that because back then it was really only assault terminators that were any good.

Where have you seen terminators used competitively in 8th? I don't see them in competitive games / lists, and when i've tried to run them they get blown off the table in seconds.

I'm running a competitive list involving Asterion and Terminators basically getting the charge more than half the time. Terminators are pretty darn good now, and I say that that as someone that's been playing the game since 4th edition and always said Terminators sucked. Now I can actually USE them.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

I'm sorry but what does this mean? Versus T4 the PF gets 160 whilst the PS gets 60? What does that mean? 160 what?

It's a score based on a number of factors. The number is irrelevant as it's the comparison between the two since they've been put through the same math.

The number may be irrelevant given it is comparative, but the factors are not irrelevant, because changing the factors used to determine that number could change how the two compare between each other.

Edit: If I am comparing a Monkey and a Dolphin on which is "the most efficient animal", and I assign scores of 10 and 20, there's really no way that is distinguished from scores of 100 and 200 - they're comparative, and whatever scale those points are, its the ratio of scores that matters for comparative purposes. But if the scores are calculated based heavily on the factor of "Ability to climb trees" then that factor is relevant to whether that comparison between scores is informative of what we actually want to determine (what animal is most efficient) UNLESS the ability to climb trees is ACTUALLY determinative of animal efficiency.

We don't know what you're actually comparing in your graph, because while we know you're seeking to determine the raw effectiveness of the weapons compared to the raw effectiveness of other weapons, you haven't explained what factors you're using to determine raw effectiveness, so far all we know you're using Numbers of Bananas Needed to Spell Out the Weapon's Name Using the Imgur Standardized Format. That doesn't help.



I don't think it negates your point (the cost of a weapon alone doesn't tell us much about the balance of the model and its weapons together), but unless you have some sort of proprietary secret to protect, its probably worth at least explaining how you arrive to your conclusions. Minimally, you'd do this just to avoid a (reasonable) inquiries into whether your math is even correct on any given calculation.

Is Asterion forgeworld?

As a general rule I don't play with FW stuff.

 Fafnir wrote:


Except for sisters, who pay almost twice as much for their powerfist/chainfist analogue as other S3 units. Canoness are already woefully unloved in a faction that already has freaking Celestine. They don't need more reasons to be ignored.

There's also Inquisition, but that subfaction's already screwed to the point of near unplayability as it is, so having all their equipment being overcosted isn't even close to the first of their problems.

And plasma guns for scions. Just because there are exceptions doesn't mean they aren't doing and aren't aware.

Cannoness Eviscerators come with 4 attacks that hit on 2s.
Space marines get 1 or 2 attacks that hit on 3s.

Perhaps that has something to do with it?

Furthermore Repentia use the Penitent Eviscerator, which is specific to them and is a clear indication that they costed it differently, because of how much weaker it would be.

- A Battle Sister is 9 points in power armor. A Repentia is 17 points with no armor.
- A sister would be 66% more durable making that 1 wound 1.6 wounds. vs 1 wound
- Repentia have +1WS and +1A.

If there were no WS and A difference Repentia should be ~5.5 points base -- 5.5 * 1.6 = 8.8.
But there is a difference, so we'll say they are 7 points. That leaves 10 points for the eviscerator.

That's quite a bit less than 22. So, yes, GW did consider Sisters in this regard.

Codexes are coming soon, so when the Sisters' codex eventually come out (I wouldn't hold your breath for it though), hopefully they will have ironed out all of these mistakes. Imagine that though, an actual Sisters codex after all these years. It'll be great when it arrives!

Now back on topic, I can tell you for a fact that Power Fists are better than they have been in recent years. OP, you've made a thread about Power Fists being the worst thing in 8th Edition, while various members have been trying to convince you otherwise. The whole point of a thread is to glean info from other people, not shoot down every argument you come across. You're not gonna change anyone's opinion by ignoring their argument while proclaiming yours until you're blue in the face, you've made enough posts to know that by now. I play fairly fluffy Crimson Fists Space Marines, and as part of that I like to give every Tactical Sergeant a Power Fist. 8th Edition is making this choice way more worthwhile than it ever has in previous editions, just because I actually get to swing with it without getting mulched before using it.

I know this is just another "Buff Terminators!" thread, but that's beside the point. Maybe actually try to use the weapon as intended in an actual game, you might be surprised at how it actually isn't that bad when on the table. Of course you aren't going to make your points back turning 4 point Conscripts into red mist, but you might find punching some holes into Wyverns and Wave Serpents to be a much better use of the weapon.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm running a competitive list involving Asterion and Terminators basically getting the charge more than half the time.

Mathematically speaking, the chance to make the charge is just less than half. If you have been making those charges over half of the time then you have been very lucky.

I still have over a dozen elder with powerfists.

Guess they have bionics...wait they don't have that either...

:{

 Marmatag wrote:
Is Asterion forgeworld?

As a general rule I don't play with FW stuff.

That's a personal issue and not my problem. So I really don't care.

A 4+ to hit with a fist isn't bad anyway. Outside a few instances, any target worth hitting with a fist in 6/7th was only going to be hit on a 4+ anyway.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Is Asterion forgeworld?

As a general rule I don't play with FW stuff.

That's a personal issue and not my problem. So I really don't care.

A 4+ to hit with a fist isn't bad anyway. Outside a few instances, any target worth hitting with a fist in 6/7th was only going to be hit on a 4+ anyway.

Or even a 5+ VS Greater Daemons.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm running a competitive list involving Asterion and Terminators basically getting the charge more than half the time.

Mathematically speaking, the chance to make the charge is just less than half. If you have been making those charges over half of the time then you have been very lucky.

Asterion grants rerolls to charge on an aura. Chances are pretty decent.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm running a competitive list involving Asterion and Terminators basically getting the charge more than half the time.

Mathematically speaking, the chance to make the charge is just less than half. If you have been making those charges over half of the time then you have been very lucky.

Asterion grants rerolls to charge on an aura. Chances are pretty decent.

I know he does, that's why it's just less than 50% and not more like 30%.

Use them as a stop gap unit to plug the advance of a charging army before they can get to my gulliman and devastators - only because I don't have a better option for a unit that is both tough and deep strikes. Getting the charge off with gulliman's aura and veil of time is not difficult. What difficult is killing anything in assault once I get there.

Volume of attacks is too low.

Made even worse by an unneeded -1 to hit modifier.

Someone in the thread earlier said if power fist wasn't minute one to hit it would just be the best power weapon - well it does cost 5 times more than the other ones so...Compared to a relic blade I'd take the relic blade every-time. For the costs I'd take a MC power sword if it was an option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm running a competitive list involving Asterion and Terminators basically getting the charge more than half the time.

Mathematically speaking, the chance to make the charge is just less than half. If you have been making those charges over half of the time then you have been very lucky.

Asterion grants rerolls to charge on an aura. Chances are pretty decent.

Take Librarian - cast veil of time.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Use them as a stop gap unit to plug the advance of a charging army before they can get to my gulliman and devastators - only because I don't have a better option for a unit that is both tough and deep strikes. Getting the charge off with gulliman's aura and veil of time is not difficult. What difficult is killing anything in assault once I get there.

Volume of attacks is too low.

Made even worse by an unneeded -1 to hit modifier.

All righty then, they drop out of deep strike in front of say: Ork Boyz coming to f-up Girlyman. You have an initial 20x Bolter Shots to chip a large portion of the unit away (Only strength 4 yes but you're hitting on 3s re-rolling), the math says 7 dead Boyz from shooting. You then charge with 11 S8 attacks hitting on 4s re-rolling and kill another 7 Boyz. Let's say it's a 30 Boy unit, you will lose 2 Termies and have another drop to 1 wound (maybe lose a 3rd from PK Nob). But here comes morale: on average your opponents Boy unit will lose another 10 Boyz if they don't have a Boss.

By sacrificing your Terminators you saved Girlyman and the devistators.

 admironheart wrote:
I still have over a dozen elder with powerfists.

Guess they have bionics...wait they don't have that either...

:{

Hehehe. I have five Howling Banshees with power axes.

Those are...executioners! Yeah! That's what those are!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Is Asterion forgeworld?

As a general rule I don't play with FW stuff.

That's a personal issue and not my problem. So I really don't care.

A 4+ to hit with a fist isn't bad anyway. Outside a few instances, any target worth hitting with a fist in 6/7th was only going to be hit on a 4+ anyway.

Pretty odd you don't consider the fact what you are hitting probably has a weapon that will shred your terms and isn't -1 to hit.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Is Asterion forgeworld?

As a general rule I don't play with FW stuff.

That's a personal issue and not my problem. So I really don't care.

A 4+ to hit with a fist isn't bad anyway. Outside a few instances, any target worth hitting with a fist in 6/7th was only going to be hit on a 4+ anyway.

Pretty odd you don't consider the fact what you are hitting probably has a weapon that will shred your terms and isn't -1 to hit.

Such as?

Does it matter what the target is armed with if it never gets to swing? Even against T7, a unit of 5 Terminators is going to drop 10 wounds on average, if you reroll hits (which, again, I always have so far). That's pretty solid damage.

 Xenomancers wrote:


Volume of attacks is too low.

Made even worse by an unneeded -1 to hit modifier.

A unit loaded with just power fists is not for killing hordes (though the storm bolters are - horray for shooting and charging different targets!)

If you want the best horde killer you use a power axe - just enough to push wounding to 3s and armor pen to take the majority of armor on them.
If you want dominance over T3 you use a lance or maul.
If you're fighting terminators or PA all day long then you want a sword.
If you have to worry about multi-wound models and want to dominate T4 then you use a fist.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Use them as a stop gap unit to plug the advance of a charging army before they can get to my gulliman and devastators - only because I don't have a better option for a unit that is both tough and deep strikes. Getting the charge off with gulliman's aura and veil of time is not difficult. What difficult is killing anything in assault once I get there.

Volume of attacks is too low.

Made even worse by an unneeded -1 to hit modifier.

All righty then, they drop out of deep strike in front of say: Ork Boyz coming to f-up Girlyman. You have an initial 20x Bolter Shots to chip a large portion of the unit away (Only strength 4 yes but you're hitting on 3s re-rolling), the math says 7 dead Boyz from shooting. You then charge with 11 S8 attacks hitting on 4s re-rolling and kill another 7 Boyz. Let's say it's a 30 Boy unit, you will lose 2 Termies and have another drop to 1 wound (maybe lose a 3rd from PK Nob). But here comes morale: on average your opponents Boy unit will lose another 10 Boyz if they don't have a Boss.

By sacrificing your Terminators you saved Girlyman and the devistators.

I wouldn't even charge the boys - my overwatch will do more damage than the powerfist vs the boys - herin lies the problem. Terms could actually be a great unit if not for power-fist tax.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Is Asterion forgeworld?

As a general rule I don't play with FW stuff.

That's a personal issue and not my problem. So I really don't care.

A 4+ to hit with a fist isn't bad anyway. Outside a few instances, any target worth hitting with a fist in 6/7th was only going to be hit on a 4+ anyway.

Pretty odd you don't consider the fact what you are hitting probably has a weapon that will shred your terms and isn't -1 to hit.

Such as?

harlequins?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Use them as a stop gap unit to plug the advance of a charging army before they can get to my gulliman and devastators - only because I don't have a better option for a unit that is both tough and deep strikes. Getting the charge off with gulliman's aura and veil of time is not difficult. What difficult is killing anything in assault once I get there.

Volume of attacks is too low.

Made even worse by an unneeded -1 to hit modifier.

All righty then, they drop out of deep strike in front of say: Ork Boyz coming to f-up Girlyman. You have an initial 20x Bolter Shots to chip a large portion of the unit away (Only strength 4 yes but you're hitting on 3s re-rolling), the math says 7 dead Boyz from shooting. You then charge with 11 S8 attacks hitting on 4s re-rolling and kill another 7 Boyz. Let's say it's a 30 Boy unit, you will lose 2 Termies and have another drop to 1 wound (maybe lose a 3rd from PK Nob). But here comes morale: on average your opponents Boy unit will lose another 10 Boyz if they don't have a Boss.

By sacrificing your Terminators you saved Girlyman and the devistators.

I wouldn't even charge the boys - my overwatch will do more damage than the powerfist vs the boys - herin lies the problem. Terms could actually be a great unit if not for power-fist tax.

Overwatch from what exactly? And if you wait for the overwatch then less Boyz will die from Morale.

Also Chaos Terminators come base with Power Axes which are shocking in cc, if I wasn't taking so many Zerkers in my list I'd definitely swap out for Power Fists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Is Asterion forgeworld?

As a general rule I don't play with FW stuff.

That's a personal issue and not my problem. So I really don't care.

A 4+ to hit with a fist isn't bad anyway. Outside a few instances, any target worth hitting with a fist in 6/7th was only going to be hit on a 4+ anyway.

Pretty odd you don't consider the fact what you are hitting probably has a weapon that will shred your terms and isn't -1 to hit.

Such as?

harlequins?

You'll have to be more specific, I don't play against a lot of Harlequins and even if I did there are a few different units to choose from.

 Xenomancers wrote:

harlequins?

It has less to do with the weapon and more that a harlequin has 4 attacks.

They either get S5 -2 D1, S4 -3 D1, or S4 -1 D3. Those are 9, 6, and 14 points respectively.

So...

4 * .666 * .666 * .333 = 0.6 wounds; 0.07 per point
4 * .666 * .5 * .666 = 0.9 wounds; 0.15 per point
4 * .666 * .5 * .333 * 2 = 0.9 wounds; 0.06 per point

So a troupe of 5 could kill 2.5 termies. Honestly i'm more concerned about the fusion pistols.

But let's shoot them, because that's what you're supposed to do...

20 * .666 * .666 * .5 = 4.4

Pretty much an entirely dead squad. In my area they all take kiss and fusion pistols, which makes them 190 points a squad - not idea if others do the same. Terminators are a bit over 200.

You don't use lascannons on guardmen. You don't use power fists on troupes.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

harlequins?

It has less to do with the weapon and more that a harlequin has 4 attacks.

They either get S5 -2 D1, S4 -3 D1, or S4 -1 D3. Those are 9, 6, and 14 points respectively.

So...

4 * .666 * .666 * .333 = 0.6 wounds; 0.07 per point
4 * .666 * .5 * .666 = 0.9 wounds; 0.15 per point
4 * .666 * .5 * .333 * 2 = 0.9 wounds; 0.06 per point

So a troupe of 5 could kill 2.5 termies. Honestly i'm more concerned about the fusion pistols.

But let's shoot them, because that's what you're supposed to do...

20 * .666 * .666 * .5 = 4.4

Pretty much an entirely dead squad. In my area they all take kiss and fusion pistols, which makes them 190 points a squad - not idea if others do the same. Terminators are a bit over 200.

You don't use lascannons on guardmen. You don't use power fists on troupes.

Is that before or after the Troupe is ground to a paste from Space Marine shooting and/or (if needed) the Terminators literally wasting the entire unit?