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 Xenomancers wrote:
Why do you assume power-fist are always going first - they aren't - they are always -1 to hit though. So if that's the trade off - it's obviously a bad one. I'd be happy to hit last and have a weapon you can actually hit with.

I'd just like to point out, that up until 8th edition, you were most likely -still- hitting on 4's against most opponents with that P. Fist. If you were fighting SM's, (so basically 80% of the armies available in game), or a dedicated assault unit w/ WS4, you had the same to hit chance that you do now. You seem to be forgetting that, or simply glossing it over. Unless you were always playing against IG, Tau or Sisters, most other armies had WS4 on a majority of their units. So your to hit chance has stayed relatively static. P. Fists are 20pts, same as they were last edition, but are better on the charge, and against anything but Vehicles or Characters, you still have the chance to kill a 3W model in one hit. Not as guarantee'd as 7th ed, true, but the chance does exist. So I'm not really sure what it is you're complaining about here.

 Melissia wrote:
TBH, the -1 to hit is way better than hitting last.

No it's not. A lot of things can't hurt you even if they hit you. ESP if you have 2+ saves/ vehicals typical can't hurt you. Yet you are still -1 to hit.

Compare then and now. you do d3 damage now instead of 1. True. However most things have 2-3 times more wounds. So in comparison your damage is worse than before - you hit less often - you get no bonus attacks for charging. Meanwhile every other option for CC got significantly cheaper AND also better with their -ap not being wasted if it didn't flat out ignore the armor.

You honestly trying to tell me you'd take power fists over power axes or power mauls on your terminators if that were an option? +16 points for maybe a little more damage? After lowering your chance to hit?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
TBH, the -1 to hit is way better than hitting last.

No it's not. A lot of things can't hurt you even if they hit you. ESP if you have 2+ saves/ vehicals typical can't hurt you. Yet you are still -1 to hit.

Compare then and now. you do d3 damage now instead of 1. True. However most things have 2-3 times more wounds. So in comparison your damage is worse than before - you hit less often - you get no bonus attacks for charging. Meanwhile every other option for CC got significantly cheaper AND also better with their -ap not being wasted if it didn't flat out ignore the armor.

You honestly trying to tell me you'd take power fists over power axes or power mauls on your terminators if that were an option? +14 points for maybe a little more damage? After lowering your chance to hit?

i'll compare then and now you hit on 4+ still either way but they're cheaper and you can hit first on a charge now so there's no real reason to complain but here we all are anyway yaaay

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
TBH, the -1 to hit is way better than hitting last.

No it's not. A lot of things can't hurt you even if they hit you. ESP if you have 2+ saves/ vehicals typical can't hurt you. Yet you are still -1 to hit.

Compare then and now. you do d3 damage now instead of 1. True. However most things have 2-3 times more wounds. So in comparison your damage is worse than before - you hit less often - you get no bonus attacks for charging. Meanwhile every other option for CC got significantly cheaper AND also better with their -ap not being wasted if it didn't flat out ignore the armor.

You honestly trying to tell me you'd take power fists over power axes or power mauls on your terminators if that were an option? +16 points for maybe a little more damage? After lowering your chance to hit?

Wait a lot of things cant hurt you but then followed by cheaper CC options that can hurt you? anyway

Power fists are the middle ground in pasting infantry, heavy infantry and knocking around vehicles and MC. (chain fists being basically the same points but with 1 more ap and a more steady damage output)

good luck taking out a rhino with a bunch of power swords.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
TBH, the -1 to hit is way better than hitting last.

No it's not. A lot of things can't hurt you even if they hit you. ESP if you have 2+ saves/ vehicals typical can't hurt you. Yet you are still -1 to hit.

Compare then and now. you do d3 damage now instead of 1. True. However most things have 2-3 times more wounds. So in comparison your damage is worse than before - you hit less often - you get no bonus attacks for charging. Meanwhile every other option for CC got significantly cheaper AND also better with their -ap not being wasted if it didn't flat out ignore the armor.

You honestly trying to tell me you'd take power fists over power axes or power mauls on your terminators if that were an option? +16 points for maybe a little more damage? After lowering your chance to hit?

Other weapons are cheaper and better because they are now a choice - you have to think about what youw ant to do adn which wepaon works best in which circumstance,

You are also (willfully?) ignoring all the valid points people are making - ie that 4+ to hit now is the same for a large proportion of opponents as it always was - except now you don't auto strike last.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Yuh-huh.

NUH UH TIMES INFINITY

I think I'm out of this one. Good luck lads!

 Insectum7 wrote:
And your champion cant be Challenged out anymore. Long live the hidden powerfist.

Powerfists on a Berzerker champion with a Dark Apostle nearby is money.

This guy knows what he's talking about.

The Zerker champion with 6x S10 AP-3 Dd3 attacks would like to disagree with you OP.

Yeah. I'm convinced it's a troll thread.

/unsubscribe

 Insectum7 wrote:
And your champion cant be Challenged out anymore. Long live the hidden powerfist.

Powerfists on a Berzerker champion with a Dark Apostle nearby is money.

Or BA terminators with a nearby terminator ancient. 4+ rerollable is pretty solid. Or sanguinary priest near some assault squads with pfists, making them hit at S10 for extra lulz.

There is a reason that s5 weapons is currently considered the "sweet spot":

1) most of them are high rof(meaning a net s5 melee weapon is a little less desirable without 3+ attacks or a large unit size weilding them)

2) wound most infantry on a 3+, and all big models on a 5+(add in #1 for the big models)

3) they tend to be cheap points-wise.

Now compare the p-fist:
1) low attacks and -1 to hit(this is a negative aspect, but balanced in a moment; and on a marine sgt it is 2 attacks hitting once on aggregate average)

2) those infantry the s5 weapons wound on a 3? Yeah they get wounded on 2s now. And the big models are all wounded on 4+. This is significant.

3) d3 damage averages to 2 damage per unsaved wound, add -3 ap and you are putting more damage per strike on any target.

The to-wound chart makes large bands of s:t ratio worthless but each value of s or t has a different band of worthless targets.the powerfist on a marine has almost none. Str5 vs str7 barely matters: a marine with a power fist hits that next sweet spot. It still isn't any good on a bloodclaw/grey hunter, but it never was. 2 attacks is the minimum for p-fist marines; all of the above is also why it is half price for the guard: they suck with the fist in comparison to a maul(s5 2 attacks hitting on 4s vs s6 2 attacks that hit on 5s; it is only the greater damage on unsaved wounds that bring it anywhere near worth taking)

Guys guys, I love all your point about why the power fist is worth it's points, since it really is no worse now than it was back in earlier additions when it was 25, but I think we got to consider the point Xenomancer is ACTUALLY trying to make

 Xenomancers wrote:
Why does GW do everything it can to make terms suck?

This is not a "power fist are bad" topic, it's another "why aren't Terminators literally the best?" thread disguised as a power fist are bad topic

But on a more serious note, Power fist are still the jack of all trades as they used to be, but because of the changes to vehicles they're not going to be mulching leman russes anymore. They're still very scary infantry killer and are still able to one shot most infantry and can put multiple wound on weaker MCs and transports. Now, I would say ALL melee weapons needed a points drop since at least 6th, so perhaps PF could stand to have a few points shaved, but they are not "bad" as is.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
And your champion cant be Challenged out anymore. Long live the hidden powerfist.

Powerfists on a Berzerker champion with a Dark Apostle nearby is money.

This guy knows what he's talking about.

The Zerker champion with 6x S10 AP-3 Dd3 attacks would like to disagree with you OP.

We have already established that PF aren't as bad on high attack models. The problem is the base cost and character cost should be different. Also the -1 to hit makes plenty of equally costed weapons better than a powerfist. A master crafted power sword for example - given the option to attack with this weapon over a power fist - Like a gravis captain makes every time he attacks. What option do you think he attacks with most of the time?

So this isnt about power fists but character special weapons now?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
And your champion cant be Challenged out anymore. Long live the hidden powerfist.

Powerfists on a Berzerker champion with a Dark Apostle nearby is money.

This guy knows what he's talking about.

The Zerker champion with 6x S10 AP-3 Dd3 attacks would like to disagree with you OP.

We have already established that PF aren't as bad on high attack models. The problem is the base cost and character cost should be different. Also the -1 to hit makes plenty of equally costed weapons better than a powerfist. A master crafted power sword for example - given the option to attack with this weapon over a power fist - Like a gravis captain makes every time he attacks. What option do you think he attacks with most of the time?

The Power fist still because being S8 with AP-3 and Dd3 is still better than S4 AP-3 D1 even though he's now hitting on 3s? The only time you might consider the sword is against T3> models and models with only 1 wound.

Also, there's ways of turning that S8 into an S10, turning that 4+ in to 4+ rerollable (either 1s, or _all_ failures), and so on, each of which makes the pfist vastly superior to a psword. The psword would need something like rerolling to-wounds to catch up, but rerolling to-wounds would also benefit the pfist so it still would have a hard time catching up. The main benefit to the psword is that it's cheap, not that it's powerful. If you want something that hits hard and gets enormous gains from buffs, you get a fist or hammer, not a sword.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Guys guys, I love all your point about why the power fist is worth it's points, since it really is no worse now than it was back in earlier additions when it was 25, but I think we got to consider the point Xenomancer is ACTUALLY trying to make

 Xenomancers wrote:
Why does GW do everything it can to make terms suck?

This is not a "power fist are bad" topic, it's another "why aren't Terminators literally the best?" thread disguised as a power fist are bad topic

But on a more serious note, Power fist are still the jack of all trades as they used to be, but because of the changes to vehicles they're not going to be mulching leman russes anymore. They're still very scary infantry killer and are still able to one shot most infantry and can put multiple wound on weaker MCs and transports. Now, I would say ALL melee weapons needed a points drop since at least 6th, so perhaps PF could stand to have a few points shaved, but they are not "bad" as is.

Anything to do with power-fists has to do with terminators. They are one of the only units forced to be armed with them - it doesn't take a lot of brain power to figure that out. Their cost should really be balanced around a terminator wielding them - clearly it's not. It's not like my original post did not specifically point out my grief with the power-fists was directly linked to terminators.

What surprises me is how anti marine dakka is. In my gaming group the consensus is clear - power-fist are a subpar weapon - better off taking something else if you can. Not a single person is agreeing with me though - or even wants to discuss the problem. So I'll just let this one go.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
And your champion cant be Challenged out anymore. Long live the hidden powerfist.

Powerfists on a Berzerker champion with a Dark Apostle nearby is money.

This guy knows what he's talking about.

The Zerker champion with 6x S10 AP-3 Dd3 attacks would like to disagree with you OP.

We have already established that PF aren't as bad on high attack models. The problem is the base cost and character cost should be different. Also the -1 to hit makes plenty of equally costed weapons better than a powerfist. A master crafted power sword for example - given the option to attack with this weapon over a power fist - Like a gravis captain makes every time he attacks. What option do you think he attacks with most of the time?

The Power fist still because being S8 with AP-3 and Dd3 is still better than S4 AP-3 D1 even though he's now hitting on 3s? The only time you might consider the sword is against T3> models and models with only 1 wound.

The master crafted power sword does 2 flat damage.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Guys guys, I love all your point about why the power fist is worth it's points, since it really is no worse now than it was back in earlier additions when it was 25, but I think we got to consider the point Xenomancer is ACTUALLY trying to make

 Xenomancers wrote:
Why does GW do everything it can to make terms suck?

This is not a "power fist are bad" topic, it's another "why aren't Terminators literally the best?" thread disguised as a power fist are bad topic

But on a more serious note, Power fist are still the jack of all trades as they used to be, but because of the changes to vehicles they're not going to be mulching leman russes anymore. They're still very scary infantry killer and are still able to one shot most infantry and can put multiple wound on weaker MCs and transports. Now, I would say ALL melee weapons needed a points drop since at least 6th, so perhaps PF could stand to have a few points shaved, but they are not "bad" as is.

Anything to do with power-fists has to do with terminators. They are one of the only units forced to be armed with them - it doesn't take a lot of brain power to figure that out. Their cost should really be balanced around a terminator wielding them - clearly it's not. It's not like my original post did not specifically point out my grief with the power-fists was directly linked to terminators.

What surprises me is how anti marine dakka is. In my gaming group the consensus is clear - power-fist are a subpar weapon - better off taking something else if you can. Not a single person is agreeing with me though - or even wants to discuss the problem. So I'll just let this one go.

They probably need a drop in points to 15-18pts but the point we are trying to make is that they are in no way bad and are much better than they were before, but you won't listen to our arguments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
And your champion cant be Challenged out anymore. Long live the hidden powerfist.

Powerfists on a Berzerker champion with a Dark Apostle nearby is money.

This guy knows what he's talking about.

The Zerker champion with 6x S10 AP-3 Dd3 attacks would like to disagree with you OP.

We have already established that PF aren't as bad on high attack models. The problem is the base cost and character cost should be different. Also the -1 to hit makes plenty of equally costed weapons better than a powerfist. A master crafted power sword for example - given the option to attack with this weapon over a power fist - Like a gravis captain makes every time he attacks. What option do you think he attacks with most of the time?

The Power fist still because being S8 with AP-3 and Dd3 is still better than S4 AP-3 D1 even though he's now hitting on 3s? The only time you might consider the sword is against T3> models and models with only 1 wound.

The master crafted power sword does 2 flat damage.

I'd still take the Power fist for the higher strength.

Yeah, I gotta disagree with the notion that terminators suck this edition. At the very least, I'd argue that Terminators are way better in 8th than 7th.

They no longer scatter and risk losing high-points models when deep striking. This is mitigated somewhat for assault termies because of their low movement rating making assaulting risky, but for tacticals it's far less of a problem due to their excellent shooting-- stormbolters are both cheaper AND more effective than ever before. Powerfists and thunder hammers hit harder than before, and with two attacks per terminator and 3 per sarge you're guaranteed a respectable number of hits and potentially knocking out even heavy tanks in one turn depending on the damage you roll. Lightning claws are still viable mixed in with thunder hammer/stormshield termies as well, with their excellent statline and being reasonably priced.

Add to that it's very easy to buff terminators with relatively cheap characters and you honestly have a situation where termies are in the best place competitively since at least fifth edition, and quite possibly better than that because back then it was really only assault terminators that were any good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:
I'd still take the Power fist for the higher strength.

Also, not everyone can take the mastercrafted power sword to begin with.

So much in this edition allows you to reroll hits.

If you're rerolling hits, that's the place you want to take a penalty, and you want to improve wounds.

Personally I don't find power fists, or thunder hammers, to be worth it on 1 wound, 1-2 attack models.

From a space marine perspective, many of our infantry choices are totally worthless in 8th, moreso than in 7th. So naturally if the model that is equipped with a power fist is worthless, you're not going to get many miles out of the fist itself.

I'm a big fan of power fists, actually. I think I'd rather have chainfists, but the change in mechanics from striking last to -1 hit has been a gigantic buff for all that sort of weapon, in my opinion. Perhaps my thoughts are colored by the fact that I've never used a power fist this edition without rerolls to hit, though. That makes them a hell of a lot more palatable.

 Melissia wrote:

Add to that it's very easy to buff terminators with relatively cheap characters and you honestly have a situation where termies are in the best place competitively since at least fifth edition, and quite possibly better than that because back then it was really only assault terminators that were any good.

Where have you seen terminators used competitively in 8th? I don't see them in competitive games / lists, and when i've tried to run them they get blown off the table in seconds.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Add to that it's very easy to buff terminators with relatively cheap characters and you honestly have a situation where termies are in the best place competitively since at least fifth edition, and quite possibly better than that because back then it was really only assault terminators that were any good.

Where have you seen terminators used competitively in 8th? I don't see them in competitive games / lists, and when i've tried to run them they get blown off the table in seconds.

I've used them in a few comp games and won all of them. Taking them to a mini tournament on Tuesday too.

 Marmatag wrote:
they get blown off the table in seconds.

At the risk of turning this thread off topic (though it's starting to be too late for that I suppose), against what?

 Melissia wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
they get blown off the table in seconds.

At the risk of turning this thread off topic (though it's starting to be too late for that I suppose), against what?

Tau, AM. Pretty much all I face in tournaments / competitive games. The new Forgeworld Tau unit has a 3D6 super flamer & can fly, with 14 wounds and 7 toughness. Anything assault gets instagibbed by it, and it's only a FA.

But back to the original point: There is 0 reason for me to pay the cost for power fists, thunder hammers, etc, on infantry models. They get rocked far too quickly for them to recoup the point costs.

 Elbows wrote:
They get work done for me...but I also play power level so I don't care about the points minutia or the mathhammer of it.

Thank god, from what I see, there is alot less WAAC players or mathhammer players in my area. I always played fluffy so the PL thing is great for me. Makes my fluff army more competitive against guys who are trying to mathhammer me.

Power fists are worse in 8th because their ideal targets no longer exist. In 7th the power fist was happiest killing vehicles by hitting their rear AV 10, or instant-killing an unfortunate character. Because of the way the rules work it can no longer do either of those things.

However, power fists are still fine at fulfilling other roles, like giving your squad a little bite in melee or being used en masse to bring down a hard target. In fact, because you can no longer use grenades in assault, power fists are potentially more valuable because they are the only option a basic Space Marine squad has that can really threaten a hard target in melee.

Maybe power fists are a little over-costed, but they're far from useless.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Paying 20 points for a powerfist on a model with 2 attacks and WS3+ is abolsute gak. I'm sure this isn't the only situation in 40k where particular models are paying too much for a weapon but this one REALLY stands out.

You're paying 10 for WS3.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Add to that it's very easy to buff terminators with relatively cheap characters and you honestly have a situation where termies are in the best place competitively since at least fifth edition, and quite possibly better than that because back then it was really only assault terminators that were any good.

Where have you seen terminators used competitively in 8th? I don't see them in competitive games / lists, and when i've tried to run them they get blown off the table in seconds.

To be fair, the edition isn't even a month old. The meta isn't anywhere close to being established.

The fist may be 20 points, but since the base frame of a terminator is only 26 points, vice the chaos terminator at 31 points, quite a bit of this cost is absorbed into the model's cost already. The SM terminator is only 10 points more than a chaos terminator instead of 15.

without the -1 modifier, a PF is just better than all other power weapons. Undeniably so.

And as pointed out, you hit on 4+ in previous editions anyway with the exception of guard, gaunts and tau.

I'm just annoyed that Sisters pay the Space Marine cost for their Eviscerators while having Imperial Guard level Strength and Toughness. Eviscerators should be 12 points, not 22.