BrianDavion wrote:

 The_Grey_Knight wrote:
I think there is the issue of how grimdark you want the setting to be. The return of the loyalist primarchs tunes this feel down, even with the return of the traitor primarchs, and it pushes all other non-xenos characters to the side and makes the 40k universe just a battle of the primarchs.

I really like the grimdark feel of 40k, it's what sets the world apart from other sci-fi worlds for me, so I'm against the return of the primarchs to the forefront, though I'm perfectly happy with some of the daemon ones lurking in the background.

On a different note, giving them rules diminishes their reputations. Gw can't make them too over powered or else ruin all game balance or give them really high points costs, which means they won't see much play, when I feel by raw lore power they should be in the 800+points section.
But that's just my view on 40k and the primarchs.

that or it gives GW an excuse to kick things up a notch (BAMFPH!) start having more Tyranids show up with more powerful forms etc. start having the necrons wake up in greater numbers, perhaps with the silent king returning, etc.

BrianDavion wrote:

KingLetterman wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The only primarchs that should be in 40k are the immortal daemon prince ones. No one else should be, or should have been, brought back.

I assume you mean the Daemon Primarchs?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rippy wrote:
You forgot Ferrus Manus as the "headless horseman" cyborg Primarch, using a bike instead of a Horse

Hahahaha that's pretty good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The only primarchs that should be in 40k are the immortal daemon prince ones. No one else should be, or should have been, brought back.

why? if a loyalist Primarch is alive why SHOULDN'T he return?

Loyalists it's okay but for Daemon Primarchs
If Angron came back he would end the Imperium.
Magnus came back and had to be toned down because he is so powerful. GW didn't realize that they inadvertently made Magnus able to disintegrate any of the Loyalist Primarchs with a sneeze. The guy blows up planets for a living, can change into any form imaginable, can literally change time and events, even control trillions if he wanted, but looses to Guilliman because sisters walk up and he "weakens his psychic abilities", I love you Roboute but there was no way you should have beat Magnus even with the help of the entire Ultramarines chapter. (Slight Exaggeration lol)

Also that B.S. Ward or whoever put out that Draigo beat Mortarion in Daemon form has me still cringing, as Mortarion could have Draigo eaten by like 4 Trillion flies before lifting a finger.

Many of the Daemon Primarchs are WAY to powerful to be reasonable in the 40k Universe again unless they somehow buff the Primarchs with a new set of "Cawl Pattern" (With a touch of Eldar) Psychic Weaponry blessed by the Emperor to kill them lol.

except... THEY'RE NOT!
The Deamon Primarchs have been defeated in the past,and we have stats for Magnus the red, he's powerful sure, but he's not an I win button.

heck, even Kaldor Dragio defeating Mortarian? IS POSSIABLE. assuming Mortarian has stats SIMILER to magnus the red, then yes Dragion could theoreticly beat him (it'd take the dice all rolling perfectly for Dragio, but it's possiable)

There is absolutely nothing in the fiction or the rules that make the deamon primarchs all powerful all mighty and undefeatable.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

KingLetterman wrote:
So, I love.....I mean.....LOVE the Primarchs, that is the main reason why I started o play 40k/30k. So here is how I would like to see them return/the ones who should return.

So, according to you, pretty much all of them.

There's nothing wrong with liking the Primarchs. But keeping them absent from the story prevents them from dominating it and effectively making other characters massively inferior. Guilliman is still met with some critique as to if he should even have come back.

In the direction of 40k (or rather 41k), he fits as the rebuilding figure and son. However, his return needs to be tempered with the fact that the Imperium has a massive struggle, one that he might not be able to overcome. Other Primarchs (loyalist especially, seeing as all the traitor ones are already mostly active) would just create a bit too much optimism and hope. Guilliman hits that mark for me - just. Still a little sceptical, and that's coming from a massive fan of the Ultramarines (30k and 40k).

For me - it's far better to keep most Primarchs in 30k.

The Lion: Guilliman and the Lion would be an amazing development as The Lion challenges Guillimans Imperium. I would love to see the Lion challenge Robot Girlyman as they did during the Horus Heresy where Guilliman broke The Lions sword over his Knee and banished him. This upset the Lions antisocial personality. With the lion waking up from his long freaking nap, have him split the imperium (not fighting but excomunicae) Have the returning loyalist Primarchs divide and take sides, Roboute's Imperium and The Lions Imperium! Have Guilliman be a much better leader, as this would make sense as the Lion is very Antisocial, and have him not communicate well, making galactic organization a mess, but have his Imperium be very fair and just with no Inquiaition and murder of innocent citizens unlike the classic imperium. Also have the Lion try and take back the Emperors sword. Maybe have the Custodes side with him as well, as Guilliman roasted them for doing nothing for centuries.

It would likely play out like the Imperium Secundus, I think. I doubt the Lion would create his own splinter empire, or if he did, I doubt it would gain much support. After all, the Ultramarines have been very good statesmen, and have shown their loyalty and strength in defending both Macragge and Luna. Guilliman has the backing of Mars, majority of the Imperium's military, the Ministorum, and the Administratum.
Lion doesn't have the people skills needed to do this. As such, he'd probably act as a malcontent in Guilliman's court, but a superb tactician. He is probably the most likely Loyalist to return from exile, and I'd be okay with that.

Why would his Imperium (if it existed) be fair? Guilliman created a nearly utopian meritocracy in Macragge before he was even reclaimed by the Emperor. He's actively trying to do the same to the Imperium now, after seeing how bad it became in his absence. The Lion? Half his men were traitors, and the ones who stayed behind do just the same as the Inquisition to cover their own behinds.

I doubt the Custodes would side with him anyways. Guilliman has conversed with the Emperor, wields his sword, and commands the majority of his armies. He's the closest thing the Emperor has to a successor now. What does the Lion bring, other than he didn't reprimand them? If a chiding that the Custodes sat back and did nothing over ten thousand years is enough to make the Custodes pack up and leave Guilliman, they're just as bad as the Primarchs.

Corax: They should have Corax Come back from the Eye of Terror and save Roboute from Mortarion I that bi fight we've seen. Also, Corax should come back blind, with a dirty beige cloth tied around his eyes, all ninja like. Have him be salty about the Primaris Marines and challenge Guilliman about the Primaris Marines (As he tried the exact same thing in the Horus Heresy, and got his legion killed). He would ultimately join his imperium though,but be the realist in the group.

I doubt he'd be the realist. Guilliman is described strongly as that. However, he'd certainly be distrustful of the Primaris Marines. He'd make a good leader of the Assassinorum, if he did return.
Still not sure if he should though. Suicide by Eye of Terror seems in character for him.

Curze: Have him come back as a daemon primarch of fear with massive wings and blood dripping from his mouth, with Psychic abilities to use lighning and have his in game abilities be like " Units within 24' Subtract -1 from their leadership, units within 12' take -3 and units within 6' take -5 from their leadership." Make him secretly trying to become a 5th Chaos God of Fear. Working with Tzeetch, but have Tzeetch trick him. Also no Caladius Assassin could take down Curze even if he allowed it. It would be like chopping an Iron Block with a stick. Also their a leaked Inquisition tape that's audio shows Curze attacking the assassin. Meaning he is very unlikely dead.

Nope. Kurze sacrificed himself to prove a point. Having that revoked makes no sense for his character.
He was tortured by his visions, and wanted out. He hated his responsibility. So he called the Imperium out and basically said "if you kill me, you prove that you're no worse than me". His death proves that the Imperium isn't necessarily the "good guy".

Kurze works brilliantly in 30k, but not 40k. If you want a guy who fills that void for you, try a Night Lord who is acting as his successor. They're not Kurze, but they're trying to be him, and attempting to unite the fractured Night Lords again. Ironic, because Kurze didn't want that (he actively said for no-one to hunt down the Assassin afterwards. Which they promptly disobeyed.)

And on the "Also no Caladius Assassin could take down Curze even if he allowed it. It would be like chopping an Iron Block with a stick." point, that's not true. As we've seen, it's not illogical that Assassins could kill a Primarch. Four were sent to kill Horus, the biggest and baddest, so it must have been possible to have worked. Dorn was killed by regular CSM. It's completely possible that a Callidus could have done it, especially if Kurze let them.

Vulkan: Because he is absolutely AMAZING! If they bring Curze back, that would bring an amazing plot, Vulkan realizing that Kurze is still alive and the Salamanders side with Guillimans Imperium. Have Vulkan and The Salamanders be the wedge between Curze's attempt to rise to Godhood.

Vulkan could come back, but then again, we've seen him do that already. He came back during the War of the Beast, and was never seen or heard from again. The Salamanders ALREADY sided with Guilliman, so it's not really like Vulkan would do anything that special. He'd obey Guilliman, enforce stronger humanitarian bonds, but generally not disrupt the status quo.

Sanguis: Flying winged corpse? No, he's dead sorry Blood Angels. Have his chapter side with Guilliman though. Maybe he is the Sanguinor.

So Kurze can come back but Sanguinius can't? Seems confusing.

However, yes, I do subscribe that he is dead. His Chapter already side with Guilliman, so no change there.

Dorn: Have him come back as a crusader instead of a defender! and have him take up the Black Templars as his chapter as well as the Imperial fist, and have his armor be Black and Yellow. I always thought that is was stupid that they "killed" off dorn to some stupid chaos space marines. Losing his hand was a nice touch of re-fluff though (very ironic). If he had to die, they hsould have had have him die as a one man against an infinite hoarde of Chaos defending an Imperial City. Eventually dying, but saving the planet, and living up to the greatest defender lore! But now that he is surely alive have him join up with Gilliman and crusade, and have him swear revenge on daemon Peturabo! Having two tactical masterminds go head to head. Have him feel the hatred of Peturabo that his brother have for him, that would make for a fun turn of events.

Being killed to regular CSM isn't exactly illogical. During the Heresy, loyalist kill-squads were sent to kill off traitor Primarchs, and they proved to be a strong threat to them. Therefore, alone, stuck in tunnel fighting on a traitor ship = not exactly good fighting chances.
His death bolstered the Imperial Fists (until they were destroyed), and works well in tandem with their Pain Glove system.

By having these mirror matches, it's just a little cliche.

Peturabo: Have him come back as the leader of Dark Mechanicum and Iron Warriors and have him avidly trying to bone Belsarius Cawl and his work. He would tie into Dorn and that whole line of events. Still a jeleous winey mess of a Primarch with a very humanistic life experience. (One of the best Primarchs fluff wise). Have him building a massive machine world (planet) , where he worships a twisted view of the Ommisiah and the Chaos Gods. Making him the defender as Dorn comes to him with the Phalanx and an insane amount of fleets, with so much tech, that the Tau will piss their pants, or....whatever the heck Tau wear. This would make for a great turnaround. Showing how Peturabo and Dorn changed over the years.

Why would Perty be the leader of the Mechanicum? He likes his machines, but he doesn't really venerate them. We've seen him do his stuff before, such as a mechanical plague on an Imperial Forge World. He just tends to stay at homan and fortify his domain, with some raids outwards. Not a problem to me.

Alpharius/Omegon: Nobody knows what tf is going on with these two, what have they been doing for the past 10,000 years? Concocting a nasty plan? Heck yea, have some elaborate plan that (which ever one is alive) is trying to pull off against the imperium but not as a Chaos Daemon, as the unadulterated uncourrpted Alpharius/Omegon, and have the Fallen and Cypher ally with him/them, being the rouge no allegiance type of character, who is trying to take down the Imperium and Chaos.

Well, Alpharius is dead for sure.
Why would Cypher ally with them? He has no real reason to - he's been doing fine as it is, and very nearly achieved his goal of killing the Emperor. Keep Omegon in the shadows, as is the Alpha Legion style.

Jagathai Khan: Have him come back and with The Lions imperium. He should return when the Eldar rescue him from the webway where the Dark Eldar have been spanking his monogolian cheeks with a spin key whip for centuries. Finally give Drazar some cool lore, while they are at it. Maybe have him be not all bad and help the Eldar free Jagathai Khan, but under the condition that Jagathai Khan owes him one, that he will call upon him later. Knowing that a warrior, he is honor bound and is required to return on his promise.

Again, Lion's Imperium doesn't really make sense. Otherwise, if he comes back, he should be seriously messed up - ten thousand years of torture would have nearly completely broken him. As such, he probably shouldn't be fit to lead, and Guilliman or someone else may have to mercy-kill him.

Manus: MASSIVE DREADNOUGHT ANYONE? So before anyone.....loses their head ....sorry...... GW Needs to Pull Some DC Magic and bring him back because of Belsarius Cawl and the admech, have him as a massive (Magnus size) Dreadnought with his iconic hammer super sized and used in one hand, and a dual Grav Flux Bombard in the other, with a butt ton of Flamers. Making him insanely powerful robotic monster, saying that the Iron Hands have had his head and body since the Fulgrim betrayal. Have him hate Fulgrim for betraying him, but have Fulgrim (who is not controlled by Slaneesh, like the other primarchs are pawns of their respective gods) Remember his betrayal and maybe have a heroic moment where a Daemon Fulgrim, Emperors Children, Ferus Manus, Iron Warriors along with some Eldar Warseers jump in to kill a god. To murder Slanessh, leading to Fulgrims death, as Slanessh dies, his power from death rips him apart. Having him slowly fade into the warp while Ferus Remembers how great he once was (His hammer on Slaneeshes chest as the god grasps for air or what ever the hell he breathes). Why kill a god? Well this would tie in greatly with Ynead and the Eldar trying to return to former glory. Also giving Khorne power, as his enemy has been destroyed. Also have his Chapter side with the Lions Imperium.

Why does Manus need to come back? By having him come back as a mech, you're pretty much just ignoring one of his most interesting tenets: he actually disliked how much his Legion was being obsessed with augmentics and bionics. He was going to try and stop it when the Heresy happened. The Iron Hands actually became so obsessed with machines, they probably would have shocked him if he saw them.

Also, no the Iron Hands never had Ferrus' head. Horus speaks to it repeatedly, a la Hamlet/Yorick. Therefore, he'd be very much headless.

This only works if you retcon loads, and for what? Another fight? Killing Slaanesh does two things - make people's Slaanesh armies irrelevant, and makes the Imperium too strong by killing a Chaos God.

Nope - generally, keep Ferrus dead. Not every Primarch needs to come back. Keeping people dead isn;t bad. If we just retcon people's deaths and just have them come back, we end with situations where character deaths aren't really an issue because they'll just come back, making heroic sacrifices effectively meaningless - case in point, and back to your DC reference, Superman.

Fulgrim: Have him come back and repent for what he has done, but still know he is too far down the path of evil to turn back and temporarily ally with Manus after they fight for a while to kill Slaneesh as repentance like said above.

Nope. Fulgrim has been completely subsumed by the daemon in the Laer Blade. We already know he wants to kill Guilliman again, and killing Slaanesh is out of the question (considering he's a shard of him now).

Lograr: He is the only Primarch who is never talked about unless it's the Horus Heresy, maybe have him come in a take over the Black Legion, and him and abbadon and the word bearers combine. This is also Guillimans real enemy, he hated Lograr, Fulgrim just did the deed. Have him the the mastermind behind why The Lion and Roboute are splitting up the imperium into two sections, because he is trying to start Horus a Heresy II, Or don't have him come back at all, ehh, who will care.

The Black Legion would never take Lorgar in. Abaddon knows Lorgar too well from the Heresy, and knows how weak he was. More likely would be Abaddon taking over the Word Bearers and Lorgar would be forced into hiding and trying to gain favour from the gods to reclaim his legion. He'd probably accuse Abaddon of apostasy (which isn't exactly wrong).

Angron: I don't think there is room in the 40k Universe for someone has powerful as Angron and Magnus without them being sworn enemies, so I would say don't let Angron return as that would be hell on wheels.......literally. He is insanely powerful, he could probably 1v 8 the other Primarchs and win. With that said, the only way it would make sense for him to return would be if with Slaneesh dead/dying Khorne would gain immense power and to balance it out, Angron gathers his brigade of bloodthristers and take the fight to khorne, allowing there to be a massive fight in hell, where Angron tries to usurp Khorne new found power with his new army of blood letters, khorne dogs and the majority of the bloodthristers. (Have Tzeech be expecting this and lead Angron into this path agaisnt Khorne, as Tzeetch can't directly affect powerful Khorne Daemons as they are protected by psychic resistance)

Well, Angron's shown up in 40k at least once before in daemon form, on Armageddon, so his return clearly isn't that bad. He's just another of Khorne's lapdogs now. He wouldn't usurp him, he wouldn't fight back. Most likely Angron would just go on his little blood tithe again after his banishment, and probably get stopped somewhere along the line (as he was before).

Generally the Daemon Primarchs could all come back, because they've not really left. The only exceptions are really Lorgar (too busy writing books), Horus (dead), Kurze (dead), and Omegon (best staying hidden).

Mortarion: He's already basically confirmed to come back, so have him do what he does best. Murder, Disease and Mayhem. Have him and Magnus go toe to toe, while Guilliman and Magnus are fighting (as we've seen will happen in the story line). Having a massive three way.......................battle. *cough*

Yeah, this is happening anyway. Not really sure why he'd fight Magnus though.

Russ: Well, here is many people's favorite, the Icey lapdancer....I mean Lap dog of the Emperor, not exaclty the smartest Primarch, but easily one of if not the most powerful (loyalists). So I think it's to early for Russ to return, they kind of skewered him with the whole "ILL BE BACK AT THE END TIMES" but then simultaneously saying that it is not the END times. Anywho, sate the Wolves fans and have him return, ultimately joining up with The Lion, also have Corax and him be great allies still.

He'd be another big malcontent in Guilliman's court, but he'd probably just go after Magnus instead. Can't really see him causing a massive problem for Guilliman though.

Magnus: He's been busy, basically been around spanking the Space Wolves for centuries, (IMO, it's stupid that he is back, because he is so powerful that he could destroy every Space Wolf in the Galaxy with a sneeze, and sate his vendetta against Russ) Russ might have immense psychic resistance, but that doesn't stop Magnus from Dropping a Moon on him and utterly obliterating him. Anyway, I do love Magnus and how he was betrayed by the Emperor like five times, as ironicly the Emperor pushed him to chaos. And how he is a pawn of Tzeetch but is also insanely inteligent and freethinking.

You're vastly exaggerating Magnus' power. He's come back before and duelled Bjorn - a dreadnought. Magnus isn't immortal - he's really just another Lord of Change at the end of the day, with a little more autonomy. Have we seen any evidence of Magnus having universal-level powers?

Horus: Last but not least, we have Horus, yea there is no way that Horus is coming back in any form. Sorry Black Legion Players, don't be worried maybe Cypher will kill Abadon and he will go full Daemon Prince. Other than that, he dead.

Well, Horus HAS come back, after being cloned by Fabius, but still. His death allows Abaddon to act as the reverse of Guilliman, which is good.

Well, that's how I would want to see the Primarchs return, my favorite Primarchs are Corax, Kurze, Guilliman, Fulgrim and Magnus.

Especially with Magnus, Kurze and Fulgrim, that's rather obvious. You vastly overestimate the strength of Magnus, and generally the Daemon Primarchs. They can be killed and banished, as proven by the lore. We've seen that, yes, they're damn strong, but they're not invulnerable. We've had Angron and Mortarion banished (with supreme effort) by Grey Knights, Abaddon killed a clone of Horus, Dorn was killed by CSM, etc etc.

When was Magnus ever able to make moons smash together? When was Magnus ever as strong as you make him out to be? Kurze could be killed by an Assassin if he let them - four were sent to kill Horus, so they must have had a chance.

So, no - the daemon primarchs are fine in the setting. They've always been fine. They're not indestructable, they're not an I WIN button. They're just stronger Daemon Princes, and in some cases stronger/as strong as Greater Daemons/Daemon Lords.

KingLetterman wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

KingLetterman wrote:
So, I love.....I mean.....LOVE the Primarchs, that is the main reason why I started o play 40k/30k. So here is how I would like to see them return/the ones who should return.

So, according to you, pretty much all of them.

There's nothing wrong with liking the Primarchs. But keeping them absent from the story prevents them from dominating it and effectively making other characters massively inferior. Guilliman is still met with some critique as to if he should even have come back.

In the direction of 40k (or rather 41k), he fits as the rebuilding figure and son. However, his return needs to be tempered with the fact that the Imperium has a massive struggle, one that he might not be able to overcome. Other Primarchs (loyalist especially, seeing as all the traitor ones are already mostly active) would just create a bit too much optimism and hope. Guilliman hits that mark for me - just. Still a little sceptical, and that's coming from a massive fan of the Ultramarines (30k and 40k).

For me - it's far better to keep most Primarchs in 30k.

The Lion: Guilliman and the Lion would be an amazing development as The Lion challenges Guillimans Imperium. I would love to see the Lion challenge Robot Girlyman as they did during the Horus Heresy where Guilliman broke The Lions sword over his Knee and banished him. This upset the Lions antisocial personality. With the lion waking up from his long freaking nap, have him split the imperium (not fighting but excomunicae) Have the returning loyalist Primarchs divide and take sides, Roboute's Imperium and The Lions Imperium! Have Guilliman be a much better leader, as this would make sense as the Lion is very Antisocial, and have him not communicate well, making galactic organization a mess, but have his Imperium be very fair and just with no Inquiaition and murder of innocent citizens unlike the classic imperium. Also have the Lion try and take back the Emperors sword. Maybe have the Custodes side with him as well, as Guilliman roasted them for doing nothing for centuries.

It would likely play out like the Imperium Secundus, I think. I doubt the Lion would create his own splinter empire, or if he did, I doubt it would gain much support. After all, the Ultramarines have been very good statesmen, and have shown their loyalty and strength in defending both Macragge and Luna. Guilliman has the backing of Mars, majority of the Imperium's military, the Ministorum, and the Administratum.
Lion doesn't have the people skills needed to do this. As such, he'd probably act as a malcontent in Guilliman's court, but a superb tactician. He is probably the most likely Loyalist to return from exile, and I'd be okay with that.

Why would his Imperium (if it existed) be fair? Guilliman created a nearly utopian meritocracy in Macragge before he was even reclaimed by the Emperor. He's actively trying to do the same to the Imperium now, after seeing how bad it became in his absence. The Lion? Half his men were traitors, and the ones who stayed behind do just the same as the Inquisition to cover their own behinds.

I doubt the Custodes would side with him anyways. Guilliman has conversed with the Emperor, wields his sword, and commands the majority of his armies. He's the closest thing the Emperor has to a successor now. What does the Lion bring, other than he didn't reprimand them? If a chiding that the Custodes sat back and did nothing over ten thousand years is enough to make the Custodes pack up and leave Guilliman, they're just as bad as the Primarchs.

Corax: They should have Corax Come back from the Eye of Terror and save Roboute from Mortarion I that bi fight we've seen. Also, Corax should come back blind, with a dirty beige cloth tied around his eyes, all ninja like. Have him be salty about the Primaris Marines and challenge Guilliman about the Primaris Marines (As he tried the exact same thing in the Horus Heresy, and got his legion killed). He would ultimately join his imperium though,but be the realist in the group.

I doubt he'd be the realist. Guilliman is described strongly as that. However, he'd certainly be distrustful of the Primaris Marines. He'd make a good leader of the Assassinorum, if he did return.
Still not sure if he should though. Suicide by Eye of Terror seems in character for him.

Curze: Have him come back as a daemon primarch of fear with massive wings and blood dripping from his mouth, with Psychic abilities to use lighning and have his in game abilities be like " Units within 24' Subtract -1 from their leadership, units within 12' take -3 and units within 6' take -5 from their leadership." Make him secretly trying to become a 5th Chaos God of Fear. Working with Tzeetch, but have Tzeetch trick him. Also no Caladius Assassin could take down Curze even if he allowed it. It would be like chopping an Iron Block with a stick. Also their a leaked Inquisition tape that's audio shows Curze attacking the assassin. Meaning he is very unlikely dead.

Nope. Kurze sacrificed himself to prove a point. Having that revoked makes no sense for his character.
He was tortured by his visions, and wanted out. He hated his responsibility. So he called the Imperium out and basically said "if you kill me, you prove that you're no worse than me". His death proves that the Imperium isn't necessarily the "good guy".

Kurze works brilliantly in 30k, but not 40k. If you want a guy who fills that void for you, try a Night Lord who is acting as his successor. They're not Kurze, but they're trying to be him, and attempting to unite the fractured Night Lords again. Ironic, because Kurze didn't want that (he actively said for no-one to hunt down the Assassin afterwards. Which they promptly disobeyed.)

And on the "Also no Caladius Assassin could take down Curze even if he allowed it. It would be like chopping an Iron Block with a stick." point, that's not true. As we've seen, it's not illogical that Assassins could kill a Primarch. Four were sent to kill Horus, the biggest and baddest, so it must have been possible to have worked. Dorn was killed by regular CSM. It's completely possible that a Callidus could have done it, especially if Kurze let them.

Vulkan: Because he is absolutely AMAZING! If they bring Curze back, that would bring an amazing plot, Vulkan realizing that Kurze is still alive and the Salamanders side with Guillimans Imperium. Have Vulkan and The Salamanders be the wedge between Curze's attempt to rise to Godhood.

Vulkan could come back, but then again, we've seen him do that already. He came back during the War of the Beast, and was never seen or heard from again. The Salamanders ALREADY sided with Guilliman, so it's not really like Vulkan would do anything that special. He'd obey Guilliman, enforce stronger humanitarian bonds, but generally not disrupt the status quo.

Sanguis: Flying winged corpse? No, he's dead sorry Blood Angels. Have his chapter side with Guilliman though. Maybe he is the Sanguinor.

So Kurze can come back but Sanguinius can't? Seems confusing.

However, yes, I do subscribe that he is dead. His Chapter already side with Guilliman, so no change there.

Dorn: Have him come back as a crusader instead of a defender! and have him take up the Black Templars as his chapter as well as the Imperial fist, and have his armor be Black and Yellow. I always thought that is was stupid that they "killed" off dorn to some stupid chaos space marines. Losing his hand was a nice touch of re-fluff though (very ironic). If he had to die, they hsould have had have him die as a one man against an infinite hoarde of Chaos defending an Imperial City. Eventually dying, but saving the planet, and living up to the greatest defender lore! But now that he is surely alive have him join up with Gilliman and crusade, and have him swear revenge on daemon Peturabo! Having two tactical masterminds go head to head. Have him feel the hatred of Peturabo that his brother have for him, that would make for a fun turn of events.

Being killed to regular CSM isn't exactly illogical. During the Heresy, loyalist kill-squads were sent to kill off traitor Primarchs, and they proved to be a strong threat to them. Therefore, alone, stuck in tunnel fighting on a traitor ship = not exactly good fighting chances.
His death bolstered the Imperial Fists (until they were destroyed), and works well in tandem with their Pain Glove system.

By having these mirror matches, it's just a little cliche.

Peturabo: Have him come back as the leader of Dark Mechanicum and Iron Warriors and have him avidly trying to bone Belsarius Cawl and his work. He would tie into Dorn and that whole line of events. Still a jeleous winey mess of a Primarch with a very humanistic life experience. (One of the best Primarchs fluff wise). Have him building a massive machine world (planet) , where he worships a twisted view of the Ommisiah and the Chaos Gods. Making him the defender as Dorn comes to him with the Phalanx and an insane amount of fleets, with so much tech, that the Tau will piss their pants, or....whatever the heck Tau wear. This would make for a great turnaround. Showing how Peturabo and Dorn changed over the years.

Why would Perty be the leader of the Mechanicum? He likes his machines, but he doesn't really venerate them. We've seen him do his stuff before, such as a mechanical plague on an Imperial Forge World. He just tends to stay at homan and fortify his domain, with some raids outwards. Not a problem to me.

Alpharius/Omegon: Nobody knows what tf is going on with these two, what have they been doing for the past 10,000 years? Concocting a nasty plan? Heck yea, have some elaborate plan that (which ever one is alive) is trying to pull off against the imperium but not as a Chaos Daemon, as the unadulterated uncourrpted Alpharius/Omegon, and have the Fallen and Cypher ally with him/them, being the rouge no allegiance type of character, who is trying to take down the Imperium and Chaos.

Well, Alpharius is dead for sure.
Why would Cypher ally with them? He has no real reason to - he's been doing fine as it is, and very nearly achieved his goal of killing the Emperor. Keep Omegon in the shadows, as is the Alpha Legion style.

Jagathai Khan: Have him come back and with The Lions imperium. He should return when the Eldar rescue him from the webway where the Dark Eldar have been spanking his monogolian cheeks with a spin key whip for centuries. Finally give Drazar some cool lore, while they are at it. Maybe have him be not all bad and help the Eldar free Jagathai Khan, but under the condition that Jagathai Khan owes him one, that he will call upon him later. Knowing that a warrior, he is honor bound and is required to return on his promise.

Again, Lion's Imperium doesn't really make sense. Otherwise, if he comes back, he should be seriously messed up - ten thousand years of torture would have nearly completely broken him. As such, he probably shouldn't be fit to lead, and Guilliman or someone else may have to mercy-kill him.

Manus: MASSIVE DREADNOUGHT ANYONE? So before anyone.....loses their head ....sorry...... GW Needs to Pull Some DC Magic and bring him back because of Belsarius Cawl and the admech, have him as a massive (Magnus size) Dreadnought with his iconic hammer super sized and used in one hand, and a dual Grav Flux Bombard in the other, with a butt ton of Flamers. Making him insanely powerful robotic monster, saying that the Iron Hands have had his head and body since the Fulgrim betrayal. Have him hate Fulgrim for betraying him, but have Fulgrim (who is not controlled by Slaneesh, like the other primarchs are pawns of their respective gods) Remember his betrayal and maybe have a heroic moment where a Daemon Fulgrim, Emperors Children, Ferus Manus, Iron Warriors along with some Eldar Warseers jump in to kill a god. To murder Slanessh, leading to Fulgrims death, as Slanessh dies, his power from death rips him apart. Having him slowly fade into the warp while Ferus Remembers how great he once was (His hammer on Slaneeshes chest as the god grasps for air or what ever the hell he breathes). Why kill a god? Well this would tie in greatly with Ynead and the Eldar trying to return to former glory. Also giving Khorne power, as his enemy has been destroyed. Also have his Chapter side with the Lions Imperium.

Why does Manus need to come back? By having him come back as a mech, you're pretty much just ignoring one of his most interesting tenets: he actually disliked how much his Legion was being obsessed with augmentics and bionics. He was going to try and stop it when the Heresy happened. The Iron Hands actually became so obsessed with machines, they probably would have shocked him if he saw them.

Also, no the Iron Hands never had Ferrus' head. Horus speaks to it repeatedly, a la Hamlet/Yorick. Therefore, he'd be very much headless.

This only works if you retcon loads, and for what? Another fight? Killing Slaanesh does two things - make people's Slaanesh armies irrelevant, and makes the Imperium too strong by killing a Chaos God.

Nope - generally, keep Ferrus dead. Not every Primarch needs to come back. Keeping people dead isn;t bad. If we just retcon people's deaths and just have them come back, we end with situations where character deaths aren't really an issue because they'll just come back, making heroic sacrifices effectively meaningless - case in point, and back to your DC reference, Superman.

Fulgrim: Have him come back and repent for what he has done, but still know he is too far down the path of evil to turn back and temporarily ally with Manus after they fight for a while to kill Slaneesh as repentance like said above.

Nope. Fulgrim has been completely subsumed by the daemon in the Laer Blade. We already know he wants to kill Guilliman again, and killing Slaanesh is out of the question (considering he's a shard of him now).

Lograr: He is the only Primarch who is never talked about unless it's the Horus Heresy, maybe have him come in a take over the Black Legion, and him and abbadon and the word bearers combine. This is also Guillimans real enemy, he hated Lograr, Fulgrim just did the deed. Have him the the mastermind behind why The Lion and Roboute are splitting up the imperium into two sections, because he is trying to start Horus a Heresy II, Or don't have him come back at all, ehh, who will care.

The Black Legion would never take Lorgar in. Abaddon knows Lorgar too well from the Heresy, and knows how weak he was. More likely would be Abaddon taking over the Word Bearers and Lorgar would be forced into hiding and trying to gain favour from the gods to reclaim his legion. He'd probably accuse Abaddon of apostasy (which isn't exactly wrong).

Angron: I don't think there is room in the 40k Universe for someone has powerful as Angron and Magnus without them being sworn enemies, so I would say don't let Angron return as that would be hell on wheels.......literally. He is insanely powerful, he could probably 1v 8 the other Primarchs and win. With that said, the only way it would make sense for him to return would be if with Slaneesh dead/dying Khorne would gain immense power and to balance it out, Angron gathers his brigade of bloodthristers and take the fight to khorne, allowing there to be a massive fight in hell, where Angron tries to usurp Khorne new found power with his new army of blood letters, khorne dogs and the majority of the bloodthristers. (Have Tzeech be expecting this and lead Angron into this path agaisnt Khorne, as Tzeetch can't directly affect powerful Khorne Daemons as they are protected by psychic resistance)

Well, Angron's shown up in 40k at least once before in daemon form, on Armageddon, so his return clearly isn't that bad. He's just another of Khorne's lapdogs now. He wouldn't usurp him, he wouldn't fight back. Most likely Angron would just go on his little blood tithe again after his banishment, and probably get stopped somewhere along the line (as he was before).

Generally the Daemon Primarchs could all come back, because they've not really left. The only exceptions are really Lorgar (too busy writing books), Horus (dead), Kurze (dead), and Omegon (best staying hidden).

Mortarion: He's already basically confirmed to come back, so have him do what he does best. Murder, Disease and Mayhem. Have him and Magnus go toe to toe, while Guilliman and Magnus are fighting (as we've seen will happen in the story line). Having a massive three way.......................battle. *cough*

Yeah, this is happening anyway. Not really sure why he'd fight Magnus though.

Russ: Well, here is many people's favorite, the Icey lapdancer....I mean Lap dog of the Emperor, not exaclty the smartest Primarch, but easily one of if not the most powerful (loyalists). So I think it's to early for Russ to return, they kind of skewered him with the whole "ILL BE BACK AT THE END TIMES" but then simultaneously saying that it is not the END times. Anywho, sate the Wolves fans and have him return, ultimately joining up with The Lion, also have Corax and him be great allies still.

He'd be another big malcontent in Guilliman's court, but he'd probably just go after Magnus instead. Can't really see him causing a massive problem for Guilliman though.

Magnus: He's been busy, basically been around spanking the Space Wolves for centuries, (IMO, it's stupid that he is back, because he is so powerful that he could destroy every Space Wolf in the Galaxy with a sneeze, and sate his vendetta against Russ) Russ might have immense psychic resistance, but that doesn't stop Magnus from Dropping a Moon on him and utterly obliterating him. Anyway, I do love Magnus and how he was betrayed by the Emperor like five times, as ironicly the Emperor pushed him to chaos. And how he is a pawn of Tzeetch but is also insanely inteligent and freethinking.

You're vastly exaggerating Magnus' power. He's come back before and duelled Bjorn - a dreadnought. Magnus isn't immortal - he's really just another Lord of Change at the end of the day, with a little more autonomy. Have we seen any evidence of Magnus having universal-level powers?

Horus: Last but not least, we have Horus, yea there is no way that Horus is coming back in any form. Sorry Black Legion Players, don't be worried maybe Cypher will kill Abadon and he will go full Daemon Prince. Other than that, he dead.

Well, Horus HAS come back, after being cloned by Fabius, but still. His death allows Abaddon to act as the reverse of Guilliman, which is good.

Well, that's how I would want to see the Primarchs return, my favorite Primarchs are Corax, Kurze, Guilliman, Fulgrim and Magnus.

Especially with Magnus, Kurze and Fulgrim, that's rather obvious. You vastly overestimate the strength of Magnus, and generally the Daemon Primarchs. They can be killed and banished, as proven by the lore. We've seen that, yes, they're damn strong, but they're not invulnerable. We've had Angron and Mortarion banished (with supreme effort) by Grey Knights, Abaddon killed a clone of Horus, Dorn was killed by CSM, etc etc.

When was Magnus ever able to make moons smash together? When was Magnus ever as strong as you make him out to be? Kurze could be killed by an Assassin if he let them - four were sent to kill Horus, so they must have had a chance.

So, no - the daemon primarchs are fine in the setting. They've always been fine. They're not indestructable, they're not an I WIN button. They're just stronger Daemon Princes, and in some cases stronger/as strong as Greater Daemons/Daemon Lords.

A lot their didn't want to lengthen it even more.

BTW, I made this as a way for ALL the Primarchs to come back even if it was unreasonable, other than the 100% confirmed dead, I thought of a way to return them. Like Manus, Sanguis and Horus.

Lion: The thing about the Lions Imperium is, yes he'd be a terrible Leader, but he dislikes Guilliman to an almost "hatred but we're cool" level, that's why he would make his own imperium, this would be unsuccessful due to the lions leadership traits but that would be the story's moot point.
This is why I think the Lions Inperium would be a cool story progression.

Corax: Don't agree with you about Corax, he is likley the second most likely to return loyalist after The Lion. And he would offer a lot to the story.

Dorn: Dorn was killed by a hoarde of space marines, not one single CSM. Also mirror match is kind of corny, but needed something.

Alpharius/Omegon: The whole Alpha legion thing is confusion, and thinking you've won even though heir was a hidden crucendo all along so Alpharius has a good chance of not being dead, they used others bodies all the time to mask themselves and take their form. Also no confirmation that they were truely chaos, let alone Daemon Primarchs if I remember correctly.

Fulgrim: He has free will now, him being controlled was when he let the Laer blade take him over when he first felt remorse for killing Manus..... he has overcame the power of Slanessh but is still his/her slave.


Magnus: He is pretty dang powerful, their is lore of him destroying planets and taking names in the warp....more so than any Lord of Change ever could, he still should be able o spank Russ in a 1v1 now as I said, by dropping a mountain or other massive object on him.

Also: The whole Grey Knights Banishing Primarchs is Wards doing, some make sense, but Banishing Magnus (like Roboute and the Sisters did in this recent update, is downright rediculious, how is Magnus "weakened" by a Sister of Battle" like what?


Kruze: I feel you on Kurze, I just want him to come back real bad, but your right he is very hard to work in 40k. Also where did you hear about him contacting the imperium?


Horus: Horus spanked those Assassins that were after him.

Mortarion: Mortarion (Nurgle) vs Magnus (Tzeetch), I mean....Nurge and Tzeetch are enemies, and unless more loyalists come back soon, Roboute is going to be toast when they both show up ready to take Daddy's sword.

Lograr: Good point there, forgot about Abbadon being able to remember him.

Manus: That's why he would come back as a dreadnought, because he would become the very thing that he slandered his chapter for. Also. Ferus Manus has a place in the storyline, just the whole decapitated thing make it hard to go on.

Horus Again: No, clones don't count , but yea he is beyond dead.

Also, I mean Primarchs were kind of an "I Win" button though, the only things that could fight a Primarch 1v1 (So no Custodes or equivalents)
We're other Primarchs, and Greater Daemons ( Lord of Change, Bloodthirster, Keeper of Secrets, Nurgle Unclean Ones) (excluding Actual Chaos Gods and the Emperor that would spank them.)

But I agree they weren't unkillable, Fulgrim almost died from RavenGuard sniper Vulkan has died, like 20 times, and Corax almost died from crashing in a Whisper cutter or Stormeagle when he was shot down on Istvann. But notice the Primarchs who have died (other than Kurze and Dorn) Please don't be dead Kurze....*cough*.........They were all killed by other Primarchs. Only one, (Dorn) was overcome by sheer non Primarch might, and now GW changed the lore hat they didn't did a body, only his hand...really GW.....you found the Imperial Fist's leaders hand.....lol.
I think you are king Primarchs short, most of them where nigh unstoppable and hard to take down and deadly inteligent. I think you underestimate how powerful a Daemon Primarch is compared to a regular Primarch. The whole Grey Knight, Draigo banished Mortarion makes no sense, because that would place Draigo on near Primarch levels. He did have help so that makes it less outrageous.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
The other races should easily have things of power comparable to the primarchs. Tyranids adapt so well they will come up with something. Eldar have the new guys who worship death that can add a whole lot of new stuff. Orks can have a new big bad warlord or new weapon of war. Necrons probably have a lot of weird stuff and Tau could maybe introduce a new race into their collective or a new leader.