[40k] thoughts on forge world - balanced?

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**GAdvance**

You don't really get +1 volcano cannon, you get a twin volcano cannon.

Which whilst fantastic is basically a big 'I overkill my target' weapon against anything beyond actual titan fights.

And let me ask you, how many games are there of ACTUAL titan fights... a year.

**Unit1126PLL**

GAdvance wrote:
You don't really get +1 volcano cannon, you get a twin volcano cannon.

Which whilst fantastic is basically a big 'I overkill my target' weapon against anything beyond actual titan fights.

And let me ask you, how many games are there of ACTUAL titan fights... a year.

Exactly. I addressed that point in my commentary on his misconceptions about the Falchion at the end of the previous page.

**ross-128**

Xenomancers wrote:

I see you did for the weaker HB varient - that's fine - most everyone would run the HF but I'll roll with this even. For plus 227 points you get +1 BS +4 Las cannons +1 Volcano cannon -2 heavy bolters and 2+ save? Also are you charging 80 points for the quad las? I'm pretty sure the Falchion is under 800 points it wont come up on my battlescribe though.

Safe to say the Falchion is more survivable and has over twice the firepower due to +1 BS - even has good close combat stats and can fire on the move for only a 38% increase in points?

I would definitely use heavy bolters on a Shadowsword. The Shadowsword specifically is the only Baneblade variant that I wouldn't drive to the front and slam into melee, because I want it alpha-striking stuff from turn 1.

Also, the Falchion doesn't have any heavy bolters at all. So it's -10 heavy bolters, not -2. Let's look at it this way: it gives up 160 points of heavy bolters to gain 80 points of lascannons. So the +1BS, +1 Volcano cannon, +1T, and 2+ save would have to be worth 307 points altogether to make up the difference.

Edit:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
GAdvance wrote:
You don't really get +1 volcano cannon, you get a twin volcano cannon.

Which whilst fantastic is basically a big 'I overkill my target' weapon against anything beyond actual titan fights.

And let me ask you, how many games are there of ACTUAL titan fights... a year.

Exactly. I addressed that point in my commentary on his misconceptions about the Falchion at the end of the previous page.

This is a good point too. The twin volcano cannon on the Falchion must fire both shots at the same target. 99.9% of the time, this is just pointless overkill. You're almost always wasting that very expensive second volcano cannon.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Alright forgeworld defenders.

I'm going to make an analogy comparing warhammer to magic the gathering.

Consider the current indexes your legal cards to play in the core block. Combinations are limited - some things just can not be done. Then lets say we go to a tpye 2 format and the last 3-4 blocks are now legal (basically like allowing forge world into tournaments) Current competitive decks are now trash - their combos are outdone by synergies with other blocks being better - stupid things start happening - like hands that are drawn that can't possibly lose. Not because any particular card is overpowered anymore than the current block - only because their synergies are more powerful. Magic players would laugh at anyone trying to play cards out of the current core block - they say - that's stupid. It's not like they don't have other cards ether - they just know it will become unbalanced.

5x the options = broken OP combos

Then lets also factor in the fact that when FW models are OP...they are clearly OP. This is basically indisputable.

look at 7th edition with eldar hornets. Eldar FW WK (taking already brokenly OP GW WK and turning it up to 11 for the same cost). Tau riptides turned up to 11 (oh but experimental rules are legal now) It's a load of gak and it's not competitive.

I mean... we could start letting major league baseball use aluminum bats - however I think things would probably start getting boring once every other at bat becomes a home run.

FW clearly better than the GW option = exceptionally dumb and shouldn't be allowed.

Except the FW variants for the Wraithknight and Riptide weren't anymore broken than the regular versions, hence why they didn't appear very often in lists.

So go ahead and start name dropping everything that was broken from FW in 6th/7th So we can all see how ridiculous youre being. I'll wait. I don't have work today.

I can name you countless FW models that are better than there GW counterparts - it's not even worth my time to do so. There was maybe about a 6 month period where GW stuff became competitive because they started handing out free transports and free stats - in formations just to complete with the FW nonsense. Interestingly the FW nonsense wasn't allowed to use the formation rules. I WONDER WHY. I'm sure you are familiar with the WK that had 2 apoc flamers with str 7 rending - that moved faster than a standard WK - and could leave combat double flame something with apoc templates and recharge again right? That's not better than your standard WK? Give me a break. Oh and the Yvara riptide? With 2 str 6 ap2 flamers and other weapons - that were also really good for no reason....that could just skyleap away and come back in the next turn if it was in trouble? You actually want to defend eldar hornets? The librarian that could pick his spells and has a 2++ save? Come on man - not even worth going into 8th edition FW because it's about twice as bad as it used to be.

1. Says there's COUNTLESS models and can name only a few that aren't even close to broken.
2. The flamers weren't Rending on that Wraithknight. Also people rather had the extra D Strength shots or melee capabilities from their Wraithknights, hence why it didn't get used. It was on par with the other Wraithknights, which makes it as bad as any other Wraithknight outside the Suncannon one nobody used?
2. Large Blast being given Ignore Cover with Markerlights is better than a Template.
3. Nobody used them in 6th/7th. Pretty darn good in the past but no more broken than other Eldar options. This is an Eldar theme, not a FW theme.
4. The Librarian that spent a Warp Charge on that for his paltry 2 Wounds and sticks you with a specific Chapter Tactic that couldn't be abused? Picking powers is great, except you were buying a bunch of Librarians anyway for the Warp Charges and were rolling on Telepathy anyway for Shriek or Biomancy.

You're overreacting and proving you haven't actually PLAYED the game.

1. Countless unbroken models does not excuse allowing the MOST OP units.
2. The Deathshroud cannons on the WK were shred, monofiliament (this is basically rending), They were heavily prefered over GW wraithkngihts (quite possibly the most broken unit ever made by GW and FW had to top even that) do you actually dispute this (I can provide NOVA/ITC army lists if you desire)
3. Hornet were literally auto include for any eldar list because they were 2-3 times better than any model minus a WK(which FW also topped) coming out of the best codex ever released by GW in 7th. This is a FW making GW+1 rules all over the place.
4. Chapter tactics couldn't be abused once GW made a ruling - not that that matters - auto invis on a deathstar unit was an I win button in 7th.

1. Except none of them are broken. Being better than a bad version of a unit doesn't make it broken.
2. Except for the more numerous people that used the other variants.
3. Which didn't happen in 6th/7th at all?
4. You already had Auto Invisibility when you took 5 Librarians rolling on the same table. Or if you took Tigrus. Please don't pretend Sevrin was any more powerful than regular options.

**Xenomancers**

You just rolled a 1 on your number of shots with your volcano cannon and you hit on 4's....You don't wish you had another one? Overkill? It's the name of the game. Quad lascannon? Anything shooting a lascannon at is worth shooting 4 lascannons at.

The reason you take heavy flamer on a baneblade varient is simple. It's weakness having a melle unit completely surround it. Heavy flammers mostly solve that problem and they auto hit so it allows you to reposition and still do something useful that turn. OFC if you really want some more heavy bolters to go along with you 1000 las gun shots a turn - go for it.

**Unit1126PLL**

Xenomancers wrote:
You just rolled a 1 on your number of shots with your volcano cannon and you hit on 4's....You don't wish you had another one? Overkill? It's the name of the game. Quad lascannon? Anything shooting a lascannon at is worth shooting 4 lascannons at.

Not necessarily. If confronted with a bunch of damaged vehicles, it'd be nice to put one or two lascannons into each than 4 into 1, 4 into another, and leave the rest alive. Overkill is, actually, a mathematical inefficiency in a unit. Something I thought you'd notice, what with all your maths.

Also... you hit with the Shadowsword's volcano cannon on 3s, not 4s against most targets worth engaging. And I do wish I had another one, which is why I can get damn near two for the price of a Falchion. Or I can spend my CP re-roll that 1 shot that I'll have with the ~300 points of extra units I can bring in a Battalion detachment that the Falchion player couldn't afford.

Xenomancers wrote:

The reason you take heavy flamer on a baneblade varient is simple. It's weakness having a melle unit completely surround it. Heavy flammers mostly solve that problem and they auto hit so it allows you to reposition and still do something useful that turn. OFC if you really want some more heavy bolters to go along with you 1000 las gun shots a turn - go for it.

I mean, if heavy flamers are that much more important than heavy bolters, we can include those too. It just adds even more to the Shadowsword's capabilities that the Falchion does not even have access to. I think you're missing the point here.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You're literally saying "Why would you want heavy bolters if heavy flamers are so much better?" when comparing one tank that has both options to one tank that has neither option and trying to pretend the second tank is somehow better, lol.

**ross-128**

Xenomancers wrote:
You just rolled a 1 on your number of shots with your volcano cannon and you hit on 4's....You don't wish you had another one? Overkill? It's the name of the game. Quad lascannon? Anything shooting a lascannon at is worth shooting 4 lascannons at.

The reason you take heavy flamer on a baneblade varient is simple. It's weakness having a melle unit completely surround it. Heavy flammers mostly solve that problem and they auto hit so it allows you to reposition and still do something useful that turn. OFC if you really want some more heavy bolters to go along with you 1000 las gun shots a turn - go for it.

I have absolutely no problem with a melee unit completely surrounding my Shadowsword. I'm just going to sit there and not move while they flail at it. I can still fire my heavy bolters at them. I can still fire my lascannons and volcano cannons at targets I care about. And I can hit back with 9 melee attacks. The only reason I'm not charging into melee myself is that I'd rather spend my first turn firing a Volcano cannon at full BS. If the melee units want to come to me? Let them.

Maybe I might find myself in a situation where I want a second volcano cannon. But if I spend 400 points on it instead of 300 points, I can target that second cannon at a second unit whenever the first one hits. I'll also get an extra 26 T8/3+ wounds to protect it. Or I can just spend those other 300 points on something other than a second volcano cannon.

**Chrysen**

Forgeworld needs to do a few proof reading swings but I hope it becomes globally accepted. Superheavies aside, a fw ban in validates my friends red scorpions army and relegates my salamanders to only 1 named character. Might not matter to others but those few characters really add a lot when gw has had its tunnel vision on other parts of the game

**Peregrine**

ross-128 wrote:
Also, regarding FW's status under GW: back when it started in 1998, FW was an independent company that held a license to make GW models. However, a few years ago when the license came up for renewal, GW declined to renew the license and instead bought FW. FW is now a department within GW, which GW uses as a catch-all for models that they don't consider "mainstream" enough to mass-produce in plastic and as an excuse to double-dip on codex sales.

Not quite accurate. The original "Forge World" was an independent company in the US that, like Armorcast, bought the license to make 40k-scale versions of some of the old Epic units. This was way back in the early 90s, when the 40k model range still had massive gaps. Most of the models are terrible, and long forgotten. The modern "Forge World" is a brand name that GW uses for certain product lines, much like Citadel or White Dwarf. It is not and never has been an independent company, and the people working on those product lines have nothing to do with the US company. The only thing the two have in common is that they both have/had names that reference the same piece of 40k fluff.