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As it stands, for around 150 pts, this thing can pump out 43 s5 shots at bs 3+, and has T7 14 wounds. That alone makes quad rapiers and models with massed anti-infantry shooting completely redundant (for Imperium, and with a WAAC mindset). I'm hoping that the next FAQ for the FWAM will bump up it's price tag (it's not far off a Fire Raptor statline for less than half the points).
Lancelot185 wrote: As it stands, for around 150 pts, this thing can pump out 43 s5 shots at bs 3+, and has T7 14 wounds. That alone makes quad rapiers and models with massed anti-infantry shooting completely redundant (for Imperium, and with a WAAC mindset). I'm hoping that the next FAQ for the FWAM will bump up it's price tag (it's not far off a Fire Raptor statline for less than half the points).
It's 4+ to hit, +1 vs non-fly, -1 for firing heavy weapons after moving.
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Too good? Quite probable. Against a normal unit of Marines it will kill about 5-7 a turn, earning its cost back in 2 to 3 turns. What I think broke it was that previously it was just twin-linked, but it didn't really benefit much as twin-linking units with high-ish BS would not give a tremendous increase in firepower. However, now it has almost doubled.
I guess it could survive an increase to 180-200 points to begin with anyway.
It could either do with a price bump, or a loss of durability. Even when hovering, it's tougher than a predator, and almost as tough if not tougher than a Leman Russ (more wounds, but 1 less toughness - which means less in this edition) whilst outputting more firepower and being cheaper. Not every twin-linked weapon got it's shots doubled - and some even stayed the same, so I'm not sure what compelled them to give it 40 punisher shots.
Desubot wrote: Actually i honestly think the predator was a mistake
it should be T8 considering it was AV13 in the previous edition.
Whats the vultures armor save?
The predator does feel quite lacking, but I guess they justify it because it had weaker side and rear. The vulture is 3+, so same as russ and predator.
Vehicle T and W is very odd this edition. Flyers like the Valkyrie and Vulture ended up tougher than Leman Russ tanks, which are only very minorly more resilient than Chimeras, while Land Raiders have about as great a resiliency advantage over a Russ as the Russ does over a Trukk...
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
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Desubot wrote: Actually i honestly think the predator was a mistake
it should be T8 considering it was AV13 in the previous edition.
Whats the vultures armor save?
The predator does feel quite lacking, but I guess they justify it because it had weaker side and rear. The vulture is 3+, so same as russ and predator.
it was the same as the vindicator but it gets the T8
Surprised the vulture is a 3+
figured it would be a 4+ since it doesnt seem nearly well armored.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/11 18:58:58
Vaktathi wrote: Vehicle T and W is very odd this edition. Flyers like the Valkyrie and Vulture ended up tougher than Leman Russ tanks, which are only very minorly more resilient than Chimeras, while Land Raiders have about as great a resiliency advantage over a Russ as the Russ does over a Trukk...
Agreed. The fact that a Lascannon wounds T5 exactly the same way as T8 is ridiculous. 3 venoms would work out to be harder to kill by lascannons than a land raider. Even when ignoring their innate -1 to hit.
I agree with Vakathi; the way GW has done the durability of vehicles is bizarre.
As for the Vulture - unfortunately it's durability is tied down. It's a Valkyrie with a slightly different loadout, so I'm sure FW just copied the Valkyrie and altered the loadout, while replacing the transport capacity with strafing run.
Vaktathi wrote: Vehicle T and W is very odd this edition. Flyers like the Valkyrie and Vulture ended up tougher than Leman Russ tanks, which are only very minorly more resilient than Chimeras, while Land Raiders have about as great a resiliency advantage over a Russ as the Russ does over a Trukk...
Agreed. The fact that a Lascannon wounds T5 exactly the same way as T8 is ridiculous. 3 venoms would work out to be harder to kill by lascannons than a land raider. Even when ignoring their innate -1 to hit.
Yes, this is actually really odd. I think the wound chart could have used more granularity.
But back to this gunship: this is stupidly undercosted, but what do you expect from FW at this point in 8th ed, they didn't test anything.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
The issue isn't it's firepower so much as its durability. As a general rule flyers seem way too durable this edition. T6 and t7 everywhere with wounds over ten.
As far as I'm concerned nothing with the Fly keyword should ever be tougher then t6, with hard-to-hit models maxing out t5.
BlaxicanX wrote: The issue isn't it's firepower so much as its durability. As a general rule flyers seem way too durable this edition. T6 and t7 everywhere with wounds over ten.
As far as I'm concerned nothing with the Fly keyword should ever be tougher then t6, with hard-to-hit models maxing out t5.
Storm ravens have fine durability. Their base cost is very high - on par with a land raider - and they're weaker in wounds and toughness. What makes them tough is the fact that they can't be bogged down in assault. If Land Raiders could ignore melee and keep driving / shooting, and had a better move (current move is so slow), they'd be seeing play.
But a comparable unit in cost to the Vulture is the Storm Talon, which has a tiny fraction of the firepower, worse toughness (as you mentioned it should be), and less wounds.
It's just another overpowered Forgeworld unit.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/11 22:32:29
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
BlaxicanX wrote: The issue isn't it's firepower so much as its durability. As a general rule flyers seem way too durable this edition. T6 and t7 everywhere with wounds over ten.
As far as I'm concerned nothing with the Fly keyword should ever be tougher then t6, with hard-to-hit models maxing out t5.
I wouldn't say that everything with the fly keyword (Daemons, nids etc), but a lot of them do need to be toned down to give land-based vehicles a chance.
T5 storm ravens would get curb stomped off the board in seconds. There's a reason AM are one of the winningest armies in this edition, and why storm ravens are so popular. They're the only thing that can survive their shooting and have a chance at dealing damage.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: T5 storm ravens would get curb stomped off the board in seconds.
By what?
Literally every shooting attack.
Grav guns would have a field day, assault cannons wounding on 3s, auto cannons, lascannons unchanged, pick off damage with unovercharged plasma, heavy boltguns and flamers wounding on 4s.
the only things that dont change are weapons that are ST8 or better. and str 4 bolters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/11 23:21:58
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yes, it gets to choose between being harder to hit or hitting well, it can't do both.
To price it as though it could do both simultaneously is an error.
That said, I think it is too early to tell - I'd like to buy one and play with it before I declare it OP.
Every one I've played against has been rather easily swatted off the table, so make of that what you will.
Now what if you left it in reserve then used it as a finisher move less likely to get hit and do more dmg. Wait for the opening then deploy it in the right spot.
Now your adversary knows this right and it will distract them the whole game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/13 00:02:33
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Yes, it gets to choose between being harder to hit or hitting well, it can't do both.
To price it as though it could do both simultaneously is an error.
That said, I think it is too early to tell - I'd like to buy one and play with it before I declare it OP.
Every one I've played against has been rather easily swatted off the table, so make of that what you will.
Now what if you left it in reserve then used it as a finisher move less likely to get hit and do more dmg. Wait for the opening then deploy it in the right spot.
Now your advisory knows this right and it will distract them the whole game.
Unless I'm mistaken, you can't leave things in reserve anymore. It has to have a specific rule that allows you to (e.g: any of the deep-strike variations).
There are advantages and disadvantages for taking punisher vs a vulture. Both are pretty solid choices.
1) It is almost impossible to ever get cover or hide a vulture since it flys so high. This will result it being killed very quickly every game. (Most likely why they gave flyers more wounds/toughness to offset this.
2) The vulture cannot get the benifit of orders. In addition, Punishers can use auras from Yarrick and Harker to help boost damage if within 6"
3) Most AT weapons (other than lascannons) are STR 8. So that one point of toughness on the punisher makes a massive diffrence when facing most armies. Autocannons, meltas, lances, plasma, etc. are all crazy good against toughness 7
4) The vulture is limited by only being capable of turning 90-degrees and must move at least 20" each turn to maintain its -1 to hit. This combined with the punisher gun having a 24" range makes it hard to get into position at times especially with an enemy smart enough to spread out.
5) The vulture will struggle to hit units on a 5+ with the fly keyword such as assault marines, other flyers, crisis suits, most DE units, the list goes on.
6) A vulture can fly off the board
7) The punisher Heavy Support role helps it fill out formations giving valuable command points. A flyer doesn't give any benefits.
It is way to early to start calling the vulture broken or overpowered. I can think of many reasons to take punishers, artillery and other units over a vulture in any AM army. Pask in a Punisher puts a vulture to shame (yes I know Pask costs more). At most if the vulture was determined to be broken it would need a 5-15 point increase. If you are losing games because of that many points you were not likely going to win anyways.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/12 09:44:13
A Vulture /w Twin Punisher Gatling Cannon and a Heavy Bolter and a Leman Russ /w Punisher Gatling Cannon and a Heavy Bolter are the exact amount of points. Let's do some mathhammer.
Offensive capabilities:
Spoiler:
Shooting against GEQ's:
LR (standing still).
PGC: 20 shots, 10 hits, 6,66 wounds, 4,44 after saves.
HB: 3 shots, 1,5 hits, 1 wound, 0,83 after saves.
Total: 5,27 wounds.
The Leman Russ.
6,66 hits, 3,33 wounds, 2,22 x3,5 = 7,77 wounds inflicted out of 12 after saves.
The Vulture (hover).
6,66 hits, 4,44 wounds, 2,96 x3,5 = 10,36 wounds inflicted out of 14 after saves.
The Vulture (flying).
5 hits, 3,33 wounds, 2,22 x3,5 = 7,77 wounds inflicted out of 14 after saves.
10 BS4+ Lascannons shooting against:
The Leman Russ.
6,66 hits, 4,44 wounds, 3,7 x3,5 = 12,95 wounds inflicted out of 12 after save. LR is DEAD!
The Vulture (hover).
6,66 hits, 4,44 wounds, 3,7 x3,5 = 12,95 wounds inflicted out of 14 after saves. Vulture is ALIVE.
The Vulture (flying).
5 hits, 3,33 wounds, 2,78 x3,5 =9,72 wounds inflicted out of 14 after saves.
TLDR
A Vulture that stands still and shoots at non Fliers deals more than twice the damage of the Leman Russ.
A Vulture that moves or shoots and Fliers deals almost twice the damage of the Leman Russ.
A Vulture that moves and shoots at Fliers deals slightly more damage than the Leman Russ.
A Vulture that flies takes either less or the same amount of damage as the Leman Russ, never more damage.
A Vulture that hovers takes more damage from Krak Missiles and Autocannons, but the same amount of damage from everything else. This is to be expected as the LR's T8 kicks in against S7 and S8 attacks, but means nothing against S6- and S9+ attacks.
Conclusion: The Vulture will always deal more damage than the Russ, even if it moves and shoots at other Fliers, and if it Flies it is on average also tankier than the russ.
Does it need a nerf? Yes!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/12 11:54:57
Sounds exceptionally powerful from how you folks are describing it. Generally I do think flyers should be capped at toughness 6 or something (give them more wounds if you're concerned about longevity) and should be priced quite high.
~5000 points of IG and DKoK 
5500 pts 
6500 pts 
7000 pts 
9000 pts 
13.000 pts 
Yes!