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 ncshooter426 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

And with 2 guns, you can shoot twice, once with each gun. And not, it isn't like a rapid fire boltgun because it isn't in Combat.

Pistol 1
Pistol 1

Grand total: 2 shots @ 12"


Bolt gun - Rapid 1

Grand total: 2 shots @ 12"


It's a bolt gun. No one splits shots on pistols.

Yet, the fact is that it is there, and you keep missing the very important point of "in Combat". A Boltgun cannot be fired when the model is in Combat, while Pistols can. Don't just focus on one aspect, or you'll miss a lot.

 Charistoph wrote:

Yet, the fact is that it is there, and you keep missing the very important point of "in Combat". A Boltgun cannot be fired when the model is in Combat, while Pistols can. Don't just focus on one aspect, or you'll miss a lot.

I didn't miss anything - you injected your statement in the middle of something that wasn't being discussed. Seriously, go read what you actually replied too. No one is discounting that they fire in the shooting phase (number of shots is irrelevant, as pointed out by the bolter comparison) - the point is it doesn't actually matter.

* Anyone can disengage now. There isn't really "locked" in combat any longer, although retreating w/o being able to fight back is a hindrance
* For seraphim - the context of this particular discussion - the "close nature" of their weapons is somewhat pointless. They can fallback and shoot. If they had a bolt gun - they'd get the EXACT number of shots as the pistol. Within that 12-1" range, they're the same. The damage numbers are identical.
* In CC, they lost the extra attacks afforded previously. They are 1A, no melee profile mobs (s3 9ap 1D). Again, no difference between them and a bolter sister.

The only - slight - advantage they have is being able to fire into an already engaged mob. This, however, means you DO NOT want them to be taking hits in CC - that is a very very bad spot for them to be. Since they can no longer hit and run, their only real claim is to shoot at things up close. This only works with someone else tanking, and is really not all that awesome for an airborne strikeforce.

 ncshooter426 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Yet, the fact is that it is there, and you keep missing the very important point of "in Combat". A Boltgun cannot be fired when the model is in Combat, while Pistols can. Don't just focus on one aspect, or you'll miss a lot.

I didn't miss anything - you injected your statement in the middle of something that wasn't being discussed. Seriously, go read what you actually replied too. No one is discounting that they fire in the shooting phase (number of shots is irrelevant, as pointed out by the bolter comparison) - the point is it doesn't actually matter.

You were classing it as an overall nerf, which it isn't. Seraphim have actually benefited from these changes more than they've lost.

Once in Combat Seraphim have 3 Attacks, 2 Shooting, 1 Fighting. That's better than the 2 Attacks they had before. Even more poignant, since they are Shooting, they are stronger than their base Attacks. will provide.

 ncshooter426 wrote:
* For seraphim - the context of this particular discussion - the "close nature" of their weapons is somewhat pointless. They can fallback and shoot. If they had a bolt gun - they'd get the EXACT number of shots as the pistol. Within that 12-1" range, they're the same. The damage numbers are identical.

Right, but that's not the entire point at all when discussing Pistols in Close Combat.

 ncshooter426 wrote:
* In CC, they lost the extra attacks afforded previously. They are 1A, no melee profile mobs (s3 9ap 1D). Again, no difference between them and a bolter sister.

Your math is off. They have 3 Attacks: 2 Shooting, 1 Fighting. Over all, that's a plus 1 Attack. Furthermore, the Shooting Attack is actually stronger than their basic melee Attack which makes it a double bonus.

 ncshooter426 wrote:
The only - slight - advantage they have is being able to fire into an already engaged mob. This, however, means you DO NOT want them to be taking hits in CC - that is a very very bad spot for them to be. Since they can no longer hit and run, their only real claim is to shoot at things up close. This only works with someone else tanking, and is really not all that awesome for an airborne strikeforce.

They CAN hit and run, though. Admittedly it is not as special as it used to be, and can't they take hits like every other Sister, or is their Save crap compared to the regular girls?

 Charistoph wrote:

Your math is off. They have 3 Attacks: 2 Shooting, 1 Fighting. Over all, that's a plus 1 Attack. Furthermore, the Shooting Attack is actually stronger than their basic melee Attack which makes it a double bonus.

I'm not following you. There is no bonus here.

Gunslinger + CCW offhand bonus is no longer in effect. Now you have a shooting phase and a combat phase, both resulting in 3 total attack rolls if resolved one after the other.

 ncshooter426 wrote:

They CAN hit and run, though. Admittedly it is not as special as it used to be, and can't they take hits like every other Sister, or is their Save crap compared to the regular girls?

You CANNOT shoot and charge again without the keyword - which exists (See: Xenos 1 - Hellions). We may disengage freely now like any other unit in the universe, but may not charge on the subsequent turn.

Even in real life, Pistols aren't AMAZING at running full speed and shooting.

If you were going to attempt it at all you would want a weapon with a high rate of fire to be able to spray the general direction of the enemy.

 Charistoph wrote:

(As a side note, I do seem to remember the Community mentioning a To-Hit penalty when shooting multiple Weapons, but I can't seem to find it in the Primer...)
.

You might be thinking of the rule for combi-weapons in imperium 1; they have an ability to fire both parts at a -1 to all hit rolls for that weapon. There's nothing in the main rules penalising firing say 2 rapid fire weapons, just the restrictions on firing pistols or grenades with other weapons.

ncshooter426 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Your math is off. They have 3 Attacks: 2 Shooting, 1 Fighting. Over all, that's a plus 1 Attack. Furthermore, the Shooting Attack is actually stronger than their basic melee Attack which makes it a double bonus.

I'm not following you. There is no bonus here.

Gunslinger + CCW offhand bonus is no longer in effect. Now you have a shooting phase and a combat phase, both resulting in 3 total attack rolls if resolved one after the other.

This is over a Turn, not a Fight Phase. Compare between 7e and Dark Imperium here.

7e:
Gunslinger, Charge, +CCW, would equal 2 Shooting Attacks and 3 Fighting Attacks
OR only 2 Fighting Attacks while Engaged
OR 2 Shooting Attacks if not.

8e:
2 Pistols = 2 Shooting Attacks and 1 Fighting Attack. This doesn't matter if the model Charging or not.

Over all, this is a bonus.

 ncshooter426 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

They CAN hit and run, though. Admittedly it is not as special as it used to be, and can't they take hits like every other Sister, or is their Save crap compared to the regular girls?

You CANNOT shoot and charge again without the keyword - which exists (See: Xenos 1 - Hellions). We may disengage freely now like any other unit in the universe, but may not charge on the subsequent turn.

Actually you CAN if you wait a turn. Or did you mean hit and run and hit again? You keep leaving out key details in your shorthand which makes it sound prejudice.

arkhanist wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

(As a side note, I do seem to remember the Community mentioning a To-Hit penalty when shooting multiple Weapons, but I can't seem to find it in the Primer...)
.

You might be thinking of the rule for combi-weapons in imperium 1; they have an ability to fire both parts at a -1 to all hit rolls for that weapon. There's nothing in the main rules penalising firing say 2 rapid fire weapons, just the restrictions on firing pistols or grenades with other weapons.

Ah is it only for the Combi-weapons? The way it was written seemed to imply that it was in effect for any multi-Weapon Shooting. Good to know.

 Charistoph wrote:

This is over a Turn, not a Fight Phase. Compare between 7e and Dark Imperium here.

7e:
Gunslinger, Charge, +CCW, would equal 2 Shooting Attacks and 3 Fighting Attacks
OR only 2 Fighting Attacks while Engaged
OR 2 Shooting Attacks if not.

8e:
2 Pistols = 2 Shooting Attacks and 1 Fighting Attack. This doesn't matter if the model Charging or not.

Seraphim can disengage. They always could. They could literally tell and enemy to feth off and hop away at the end of the assault phase. So, they went from being able to - with a high degree of reliability - shoot twice then assault 3 times on their turn - fully disengaging out of melee and forcing the enemy to move/shoot or charge depending on loadout in their turn.

Pistols were changed to essentially override the 1" rule, and also allow you to fire on previously invalid targets (ie: those engaged in friendly CC within range). The only benefit is that you can, if you so desire, shoot them if you are within 1" in the shooting phase of your own combat, or closest if engaged in friendly. This is ONLY useful if you wish to stay in close combat and/or deny the unit a shooting attack (whether it pulls back or stays in, doesn't matter if it has no pistol). That's it. You've traded 3 smashy attacks if you are actually fighting hand to hand for a single one (at S3 AP0 D1 since no melee weapon exists for them), all for the added benefit of being able to engage point blank in your next round of shooting. That is not a buff to the unit by any measure.

Actually you CAN if you wait a turn. Or did you mean hit and run and hit again? You keep leaving out key details in your shorthand which makes it sound prejudice.

ANYONE can wait a turn and charge again - that isn't the point. With the mechanics change, Seraphim get less total attacks each round.

7Th
Hit And Run:
"Units with this ability that are locked in combat may choose to leave close combat at the end of the Assault phase."

Once upon a time, models could be "locked" in combat. Some of them had this magical ability called Hit and Run, which allowed them to get out of combat at the end of the phase. This meant that combat on the next turn resolves as if the two units are not engaged in CC (ie: they move, shoot, etc).

In 8th edition, combat lock is essentially a thing of the past. ANY unit may leave combat, albeit in their movement phase rather the end of assault. However, they modified the rules so that any unit who now drops out of combat may not shoot or charge.

Now, since that core mechanic was put in place, GW had to grant special abilities that emulated the old Hit And Run rules and override the behavior of not being able to shoot/charge after falling back. It has done this in 2 spots:

Fly - Units can fall back and shoot
Hit and Run - Ability: If this unit Falls Back it can charge in the same turn


Combine them together - you get the old Hit and Run mechanic.

Currently, Seraphim have one part of this - FLY. They may pull back in their movement phase out of combat, shoot the enemy in the face, and that's it.
Hellions, as example, have both the keyword FLY and the Ability Hit and Run. They may pull out of combat in movement, shoot the enemy in the face, and then charge them (with 2A and a melee weapon no less). Hellions do not have pistol weapons, so they cannot shoot them if they remained in close combat for whatever reason in their shooting phase, where Seraphim could. To compensate for this, they have more attacks, and dedicated melee weapons - something that (shocker) you expect on a fast assault unit. Assault Marines also carry this same base loadout: Pistol and CC weapon. They gain an extra attack on their CC weapon, and carry a higher base strength and toughness, at the same points cost. They lack the Hit and Run rule also, but make up for it with being tougher, stronger, and the bonus hit (3 hits total, same as Seraphim).

Let's look at a fight between 5 hellions and 5 sisters for a moment, just to illustrate the mechanic (no overwatch/sgt for simplicity)

Turn 1:
S:
Seraphim shoot
Seraphim charge
Seraphim melee

Total attacks: 3 per model 2 shooting, 1 cc - hitting first on charge

E:
Enemy disengage
Enemy shoot (fly)
Enemy charge (hit and run)
Enemy melee

Total attacks: 4 - 2 shooting, 2 cc - hitting first on charge

Turn 2:
S:
Seraphim disengage
Seraphim shoot

Total attacks: 2 - 2 shooting, no CC - no charge.


E:

Enemy shoot
Enemy charge (hit and run)
Enemy melee

Total attacks: 4 - 2 shooting, 2 cc - hitting first on charge


Hellions have the advantage here of being able to dictate re-entering close combat, getting the attack-first bonus of the charge. Seraphim become shooting units on every other phase they disengage from the fight. If they stay in the fight, then they may retain their 3 total attacks, but with the tradeoff of no charge hit first mechanic (without burning CP).

Seraphim are not nearly as good as they were. The lack of extra dice rolls on the CC phase hurts, and being able to shoot up close in the shooting phase hasn't really been all that awesome.

 ncshooter426 wrote:
Seraphim can disengage. They always could. They could literally tell and enemy to feth off and hop away at the end of the assault phase. So, they went from being able to - with a high degree of reliability - shoot twice then assault 3 times on their turn - fully disengaging out of melee and forcing the enemy to move/shoot or charge depending on loadout in their turn.

But not on the opponent's turn. On the opponent's turn, a Seraphim model actually has more advantage during a turn in which they were Engaged, but cannot Charge. Trying to Hit and Run from Hellions (or any high I unit) was almost impossible.

Again, this is an issue regarding another rule's interaction with a specific model, not a question on how Pistols work in Close Combat.

 ncshooter426 wrote:
Pistols were changed to essentially override the 1" rule, and also allow you to fire on previously invalid targets (ie: those engaged in friendly CC within range). The only benefit is that you can, if you so desire, shoot them if you are within 1" in the shooting phase of your own combat, or closest if engaged in friendly. This is ONLY useful if you wish to stay in close combat and/or deny the unit a shooting attack (whether it pulls back or stays in, doesn't matter if it has no pistol). That's it. You've traded 3 smashy attacks if you are actually fighting hand to hand for a single one (at S3 AP0 D1 since no melee weapon exists for them), all for the added benefit of being able to engage point blank in your next round of shooting. That is not a buff to the unit by any measure.

Not that smashy, really. They were only Str 3, after all. But still, this has little to do with Pistols in Close Combat.

 ncshooter426 wrote:

Actually you CAN if you wait a turn. Or did you mean hit and run and hit again? You keep leaving out key details in your shorthand which makes it sound prejudice.

ANYONE can wait a turn and charge again - that isn't the point. With the mechanics change, Seraphim get less total attacks each round.

7Th
Hit And Run:
"Units with this ability that are locked in combat may choose to leave close combat at the end of the Assault phase."

Once upon a time, models could be "locked" in combat. Some of them had this magical ability called Hit and Run, which allowed them to get out of combat at the end of the phase. This meant that combat on the next turn resolves as if the two units are not engaged in CC (ie: they move, shoot, etc).

In 8th edition, combat lock is essentially a thing of the past. ANY unit may leave combat, albeit in their movement phase rather the end of assault. However, they modified the rules so that any unit who now drops out of combat may not shoot or charge.

Now, since that core mechanic was put in place, GW had to grant special abilities that emulated the old Hit And Run rules and override the behavior of not being able to shoot/charge after falling back. It has done this in 2 spots:

Fly - Units can fall back and shoot
Hit and Run - Ability: If this unit Falls Back it can charge in the same turn


Combine them together - you get the old Hit and Run mechanic.

Currently, Seraphim have one part of this - FLY. They may pull back in their movement phase out of combat, shoot the enemy in the face, and that's it.
Hellions, as example, have both the keyword FLY and the Ability Hit and Run. They may pull out of combat in movement, shoot the enemy in the face, and then charge them (with 2A and a melee weapon no less). Hellions do not have pistol weapons, so they cannot shoot them if they remained in close combat for whatever reason in their shooting phase, where Seraphim could. To compensate for this, they have more attacks, and dedicated melee weapons - something that (shocker) you expect on a fast assault unit. Assault Marines also carry this same base loadout: Pistol and CC weapon. They gain an extra attack on their CC weapon, and carry a higher base strength and toughness, at the same points cost. They lack the Hit and Run rule also, but make up for it with being tougher, stronger, and the bonus hit (3 hits total, same as Seraphim).

Let's look at a fight between 5 hellions and 5 sisters for a moment, just to illustrate the mechanic (no overwatch/sgt for simplicity)

Turn 1:
S:
Seraphim shoot
Seraphim charge
Seraphim melee

Total attacks: 3 per model 2 shooting, 1 cc - hitting first on charge

E:
Enemy disengage
Enemy shoot (fly)
Enemy charge (hit and run)
Enemy melee

Total attacks: 4 - 2 shooting, 2 cc - hitting first on charge

Turn 2:
S:
Seraphim disengage
Seraphim shoot

Total attacks: 2 - 2 shooting, no CC - no charge.


E:

Enemy shoot
Enemy charge (hit and run)
Enemy melee

Total attacks: 4 - 2 shooting, 2 cc - hitting first on charge


Hellions have the advantage here of being able to dictate re-entering close combat, getting the attack-first bonus of the charge. Seraphim become shooting units on every other phase they disengage from the fight. If they stay in the fight, then they may retain their 3 total attacks, but with the tradeoff of no charge hit first mechanic (without burning CP).

Seraphim are not nearly as good as they were. The lack of extra dice rolls on the CC phase hurts, and being able to shoot up close in the shooting phase hasn't really been all that awesome.

And this is a discussion regarding Pistols in Close Combat. You are woefully off topic by continuing to pursue this topic.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Ah right, Fly still doesn't allow you to charge. I forgot about that bit.
Yeah, looks like they lost some options. I guess you can still use them as a harass / skirmishing unit?

So if you can't shoot and you can't charge, then WHY would you fall back? What benefit does if offer?

phydaux wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Ah right, Fly still doesn't allow you to charge. I forgot about that bit.
Yeah, looks like they lost some options. I guess you can still use them as a harass / skirmishing unit?

So if you can't shoot and you can't charge, then WHY would you fall back? What benefit does if offer?

You're not stuck in close combat where you'll get slaughtered?

So you escape close combat on your movement phase, but can't shoot or charge, so you GET shot and then charged on your opponent's next phase?

I'd rather stay in close combat and at least swing back.

Your other units can shoot at what you were in CC with. Some units or loadouts can be better off falling back and getting more overwatch to staying in and swinging. A Land Raider Redeemer, for example, is probably better falling back for 12 Assault Cannon shots and 2D6 Flamestorm hits on overwatch than sticking around for 6 melee attacks (or less) that hit on 6+ anyway. Not always a better choice, but if the opponent is better at punching it than shooting it, I'd rather make him work for it.

phydaux wrote:
So you escape close combat on your movement phase, but can't shoot or charge, so you GET shot and then charged on your opponent's next phase?

I'd rather stay in close combat and at least swing back.

You are not allowed to shoot into a close combat

So, unit A who fell back is not allowed to do much this turn...
but the rest of the army can shoot into the enemy.

If your unit is bad at Melee Combat, it doesn't even matter to swing.

Oh, and note, on your opponent's turn after he does all his charge attacks... Your units get to hit back. (Alternating between him and you... read the rulebook)

Can you shoot pistols in cc during every shooting phase? Including your opponents? I could not find anything that specifies in the rulebook about shooting in your opponents shooting phase.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Can you shoot pistols in cc during every shooting phase? Including your opponents? I could not find anything that specifies in the rulebook about shooting in your opponents shooting phase.

No. You only shoot during your own Shooting phase.