Ultramarines new chapter tactic on the community web site

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**Kanluwen**

Ratius wrote:
My biggest issue as someone rightly pointed out in the rumours thread is not the potential OPness of the rule itself, its the fact that it literally flat out ignores one of the core rules of the game - you cannot fall back and shoot.

A Core Rule of the game that anything with Fly gets to ignore and that Guard can issue an Order to ignore.

And it's not like you get to fall back and do it with no penalty. -1, seemingly cumulative with weapon types and the like, to your rolls is big.

Devastators with all Heavy Weapons would be at a -2 to their Hit rolls before any kind of potential modifier on the part of the enemy unit.

I can understand the concern. Really, I can. But this is literally the first one we've seen--and it actually has a penalty rolled into it!

**G00fySmiley**

it looks like it needs to spend more time on cardio and skips leg day

**Tiberius501**

Man, people are really hating on these new models. I think the Dreadnaught looks cool, far better than the silly little, stumpy model we've had for 10,000 years. It's like a cross between the original and a Contemptor. Looks sweet

**Marmatag**

Tiberius501 wrote:
Man, people are really hating on these new models. I think the Dreadnaught looks cool, far better than the silly little, stumpy model we've had for 10,000 years. It's like a cross between the original and a Contemptor. Looks sweet

What did you expect, this is dakkadakka, anything marines is automatically bad.

I can practically taste a bitter rant in the coming pages, "WOWZ ANUTHR SPACE MEREENS RELESE BUT NO PLAZTIC SISTERSZZZZ!!!11111"

**TheWaspinator**

It's a box on legs. That's pretty much par for the course with dreadnoughts.

**Pancakey**

Ratius wrote:
My biggest issue as someone rightly pointed out in the rumours thread is not the potential OPness of the rule itself, its the fact that it literally flat out ignores one of the core rules of the game - you cannot fall back and shoot.
The exact same thing happened in 7th which led to the serious clusterfeth that it ended up being.
Stomp being a great example. It openly ignored everything that was written for the hth phase, no comparing WS, no hit or wound roll, no armor save, no positioning for an assault. You basically rolled a few dice and if you got lucky bang, whallop, crunch. Remove your unit from the field.
Free transports in certain force org charts were another. They again literally ignored paying for points, constructing a balanced army/FOC and filling up your actual slots. Instead it was free this and that and feck the rest.
I could go on.

Point being if this is the direction GW is going with army specific buffs and abilities, 8th could well go south fast.

Will Nids get to ignore the d6 advance roll in liue of an automatic 6 since they are fast and manouverable?
Will Eldar be able to cast psychic powers automatically because they are uber psykers?
Will Daemons be able to summon for free again?
Again I could go on.

All of the above ignore the core mechanics of the game for the sake of "fluffy" army-wide bonuses.

Yuk.

It looks like there is no doubt that this will be the trend and it starts with marines.

**Mr Morden**

Marmatag wrote:
Tiberius501 wrote:
Man, people are really hating on these new models. I think the Dreadnaught looks cool, far better than the silly little, stumpy model we've had for 10,000 years. It's like a cross between the original and a Contemptor. Looks sweet

What did you expect, this is dakkadakka, anything marines is automatically bad.

I can practically taste a bitter rant in the coming pages, "WOWZ ANUTHR SPACE MEREENS RELESE BUT NO PLAZTIC SISTERSZZZZ!!!11111"

I like it - (save maybe for the legs) but I don't see why we can't have it and plastic sisters......

On Chapter Tactics:

Warhammer Coms stated that

Yes, Space Marines will get some pretty cool upgrades, but using an Index army will mean you have WAY more variety available to you, mixing and matching the factions as you please. It's not quite that cut and paste...

and this reply summed up the issues with that:

From what we can see so far any unit labeled as ultramarines gets to use the tactics, any that aren't labeled ultramarines can still be in the army without penalty to either. Imperium has a huge amount of mix and match available. I'm playing Tau, there are NO other factions for me to mix with in order to gain this diversity advantage you speak of from indexes. Instead unltramarines have been given the tactic that battlesuits rely on, the very thing we are known for. Now there is a penalty to ultramarines in that they shoot at 4+ when using this tactic, but wait, tau always have that penalty all the time for everything (named characters aside) and also lack the stats to use this tactic offensively the way ultramarines do. I'm not necessarily saying buff Tau, we seem mostly ok for playing indexes aside from a few tweaks, but that is a huge one sided improvement to the ultramarines over all xenos for the foreseeable future because xenos don't get to mix or benefit from chapter tactics this year.

This also applies to Necrons, Orks etc - the Imeprial Faction - which is siable portion of my own collection is so vast and has such variety that saying that say a feloow Ultramarine player has to choose just from the Marine section for his infantry, Dreads and Bikes is not a burden or actual disadvantage plus you cna still use other Chapters specialist with their Chapter Tactics.

Indexes were a huge step forward towards some balance by releasing all armies together - Codexes will only undermine this. There were better ways IMO - eg a book having Chapter Tactics for all armies.

**Ratius**

I can understand the concern. Really, I can. But this is literally the first one we've seen

But it sets a dangerous precedent. And whilst it does have a downside i.e. a -1 it still goes against the core ruleset which is dangerous imo.

It looks like there is no doubt that this will be the trend and it starts with marines.

Fingers crossed it dosent :(

**Sgt_Smudge**

Ratius wrote:
I can understand the concern. Really, I can. But this is literally the first one we've seen

But it sets a dangerous precedent. And whilst it does have a downside i.e. a -1 it still goes against the core ruleset which is dangerous imo.

Don't models with Fly and Imperial Guard Conscripts possess this rule already(the latter via an Order)?

**Ratius**

Yes but every army has access to flyers and can adjust accordingly if they need be.
Granted conscripts are an outlier but still a singular unit that needs an order.

We're talking about an army-wide special rule that can applied to most units bar vehicles from what I've seen.

**Mr Morden**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ratius wrote:
I can understand the concern. Really, I can. But this is literally the first one we've seen

But it sets a dangerous precedent. And whilst it does have a downside i.e. a -1 it still goes against the core ruleset which is dangerous imo.
Don't models with Fly and Imperial Guard Conscripts possess this rule already(the latter via an Order)?

Yes but one assumes that the FLY units pay for it in their points cost, plus you do get bonuses to hit them with specific weapons.

Chapter Tactics are giving bonuses for Free with only a cosmetic downside, fair enough if everyone was getting them at the same time but they are not and some may never get them.

Either Marines were overcosted - which IMO is not the case or they are receiving unwaranted boosts that equally could have been paid for by pts changes or add ons.

**Purifier**

Marmatag wrote:
Tiberius501 wrote:
Man, people are really hating on these new models. I think the Dreadnaught looks cool, far better than the silly little, stumpy model we've had for 10,000 years. It's like a cross between the original and a Contemptor. Looks sweet

What did you expect, this is dakkadakka, anything marines is automatically bad.

I can practically taste a bitter rant in the coming pages, "WOWZ ANUTHR SPACE MEREENS RELESE BUT NO PLAZTIC SISTERSZZZZ!!!11111"

I see a lot more of these crying posts than the posts you're trying to belittle.

**koooaei**

Elbows wrote:
The Redemptor looks like gak (aesthetically and rules-wise), but I'm more curious about it having a weapon with "Macro" in the title...isn't that the Titan based weapon classification?

Not necesserily. It can be a macro bb gun.

**Kanluwen**

Ratius wrote:
Yes but every army has access to flyers and can adjust accordingly if they need be.
Granted conscripts are an outlier but still a singular unit that needs an order.

We're talking about an army-wide special rule that can applied to most units bar vehicles from what I've seen.

It's also on Superheavies and their equivalents like Knights and Stormsurges. Some others like Baneblade variants and the Lord of Skulls can actually fire while in combat as long as they're only fighting Infantry keyworded stuff.

Darkstrider lets friendly T'au Sept units within 6" of him fire even if they fell back.
Ooh! Forgot about Gorkanauts and Morkanauts. They get to do the same, and Stompas can even Fall Back over enemy Infantry units and then shoot normal.

So yeah, it's a Core rule that you can't shoot when Falling Back...but it's also something that even with the Index lists has seen it being ignored.

**Selym**

Welp. I'm closer to abandoning 40k again.

Outright ignoring staples of fluff:

Redemptor Dreadnoughts are the apex of Space Marine warfare, combining the ancient expertise of a renowned hero with new developments in Adeptus Mechanicus technology.

If it's Ultramarine, it's a Mary Sue that can do everything and has no drawbacks. Also every release MUST be bigger and better than the last, while also invalidating previously known and loved units:

edemptor Dreadnoughts are the largest and most powerful of their brethren, rivalling even the venerable Leviathan pattern and trading out its older cousin’s atomantic shielding for more weapons. Colossal bulk indicates prodigious strength and belies a surprising turn of speed, outpacing their smaller brethren and capable of tearing apart even daemons and bio-titans with one enormous powered fist. This is combined with vast array of weapons designed to allow the Redemptor to focus on a specific target or remain terrifyingly versatile, from the anti-flyer Icarus rocket pod to the armour-melting macro plasma incinerator to the rolling thunder of the heavy onslaught gatling cannon.

Ultramarines are the bestest of marines! It's even in their name!

The Ultramarines are masters of strategy, combining their gene-given gifts with absolute discipline and the transformation of warfare into something between science and art, honouring their studious Primarch with an expertise in strategy and tactics.

Ultramarine players must win at all times, and when they do it's because their players are the best. Got nothing to do with army power.

...helping to guarantee your master plans go off without a hitch.

Ultramarines are so good that they alone have more SC's than whole factions!

Ultramarines also have a huge number of characters to choose from

Ugh.

**verticalgain**

I for one like the new Chapter Tactics.

**Mr Morden**

verticalgain wrote:
I for one like the new Chapter Tactics.

Oh its nice enough for us Ultramarines players - but do you tink it is it fair and good for the game for one faction get a free boost with the promise that others will (probably) get something similar in the near or far future.

Would it not have been better to have some cost?

**andysonic1**

Selym wrote:
Welp. I'm closer to abandoning 40k again.

Me too, I mean look at the way they describe every other faction in their faction focuses. Changing or adding fluff, saying how powerful they are, describing their unique traits and units as if that somehow differentiates them from other armies or chapters. I mean come on GW, what the hell is this some kind of hype article for a new unit and new rules? Next you're going to tell me they ran a live game with these new units and they seemed like they weren't as powerful as all the hype made them sound and the hype is just to get people excited for new models and people taking these articles like they are canon should get their heads out of their asses or something.

**verticalgain**

Mr Morden wrote:
verticalgain wrote:
I for one like the new Chapter Tactics.

Oh its nice enough for us Ultramarines players - but do you tink it is it fair and good for the game for one faction get a free boost with the promise that others will (probably) get something similar in the near or far future.

Would it not have been better to have some cost?

The cost is going with a detachment/army made entirely of one chapter. Just like using Canticles with AdMech.

**Umbros**

andysonic1 wrote:
Selym wrote:
Welp. I'm closer to abandoning 40k again.
Me too, I mean look at the way they describe every other faction in their faction focuses. Changing or adding fluff, saying how powerful they are, describing their unique traits and units as if that somehow differentiates them from other armies or chapters. I mean come on GW, what the hell is this some kind of hype article for a new unit and new rules? Next you're going to tell me they ran a live game with these new units and they seemed like they weren't as powerful as all the hype made them sound and the hype is just to get people excited for new models and people taking these articles like they are canon should get their heads out of their asses or something.

Exactly. Of course GW are going to talk about how cool the things are - they do the same for everything. And they should! What is the point in doing something if they don't think it is cool

**ZebioLizard2**

Ultramarine players must win at all times, and when they do it's because their players are the best. Got nothing to do with army power.

Wow these statements.. just wow.

I see a lot more of these crying posts than the posts you're trying to belittle.

I've seen the opposite personally, but that tends to happen on Dakka.

Chapter Tactics are giving bonuses for Free with only a cosmetic downside

...Did people honestly expect otherwise?

**Melissia**

I'm entirely without surprise at this.

hope BA get something equally good.

**Mr Morden**

verticalgain wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
verticalgain wrote:
I for one like the new Chapter Tactics.

Oh its nice enough for us Ultramarines players - but do you tink it is it fair and good for the game for one faction get a free boost with the promise that others will (probably) get something similar in the near or far future.

Would it not have been better to have some cost?

The cost is going with a detachment/army made entirely of one chapter. Just like using Canticles with AdMech.

Has that been confirmed? Also a "pure" detachment is very different to a "pure" army?

**Crimson**

Why is chapter tactics bonus 'free'? Are IG orders, Ad Mech canticles or Sister acts of faith free? Chapter tactics is just a thing Space Marines have, but unlike those other things they didn't put them in the index, because there will be many different ones. I guess they could have put the UM one in the index as a place holder, but I'm sure people would have cried about GW forcing everyone to play Ultras had they done that.

**Selym**

Melissia wrote:
I'm entirely without surprise at this.

hope BA get something equally good.

I suspect that will be GW's reaction to your request. Unless Mattard is back at ruleswriting.

**Insectum7**

Selym wrote:
Welp. I'm closer to abandoning 40k again.

K bye!

I'm going to love the UM tactics. That's an awesome ability. It's also old school UM/Calgar stuff, so keeps with tradition.

Redemptor dred looks terrible though, and I've got no interest in one. I dont care how good its rules are.

Other chapters will get their thing, as will traitors and presumably other factions. I think the important thing is that they keep it simple.

**DarkStarSabre**

Crimson wrote:
Why is chapter tactics bonus 'free'? Are IG orders, Ad Mech canticles or Sister acts of faith free? Chapter tactics is just a thing Space Marines have, but unlike those other things they didn't put them in the index, because there will be many different ones. I guess they could have put the UM one in the index as a place holder, but I'm sure people would have cried about GW forcing everyone to play Ultras had they done that.

Once more...

It's not 'free'. Chances are it will have restrictions in army choice, much like the AoS army perks - do you want to use your assassins, Inquisitors or AM toys? No Chapter Tactics for you!

It's amazing how many people are flipping the table over this.

**SilverAlien**

Mr Morden wrote:
verticalgain wrote:
I for one like the new Chapter Tactics.

Spoiler:

Oh its nice enough for us Ultramarines players - but do you tink it is it fair and good for the game for one faction get a free boost with the promise that others will (probably) get something similar in the near or far future.

Would it not have been better to have some cost?

We don't know if there is a cost.

Maybe everything chapter tactics applies to in the codex gets a slightly point increase due to it.

**Crimson**

Redemptor indeed looks like crap, and I'm relieved that the rules do not seem super strong, so I can easily skip it. Leviathan is probably way more points (and money!), but if I feel that my army needs a megadread, I think I'll rather get that. Looks a lot (I mean a lot!) better and is way more resilient.

**Mr Morden**

Crimson wrote:
Why is chapter tactics bonus 'free'? Are IG orders, Ad Mech canticles or Sister acts of faith free? Chapter tactics is just a thing Space Marines have, but unlike those other things they didn't put them in the index, because there will be many different ones. I guess they could have put the UM one in the index as a place holder, but I'm sure people would have cried about GW forcing everyone to play Ultras had they done that.

Not the same - they have stated that factions and Subfactions that actually get Codexes will also get "Chapter Tactics" -

probably , eventually.

Chapter Tactics is a straight bonus.

The Marine equivalent of those things is ATSKNF, unless you feel that Marines are overcosted currently?