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Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal




Newark, CA

Asura Varuna wrote:
I wonder if an additional consolidation rule if your opponent falls back would help take the sting out of it.

Your opponent can fall back their normal movement, and you can consolidate D6 inches in your opponent's movement phase to represent your units giving chase or re-forming. If your opponent can't get away (because their movement is blocked or a low M characteristic), and you manage to get back within 1", they stay locked in combat for the next round. However, this can't allow you to consolidate into units you're not already in combat with, and can't be used if you're still in combat with at least one unit that's not electing to fall back.

Come to think of it, this feels pretty overpowered, any thoughts?


Yeah. It's absolutely overpowered because some units can only move like 4". Also, units that fall back cannot advance, so it's not like they're getting away from you if you try and charge again next turn.

There's just a lot wrong with the complaints that can point to a number of problems either with the army list, the tactics, or the execution on the table. It's all fixable, and none of it requires getting rid of the one rule that now allows shooty armies to actually play the game after they've been assaulted.

I'll try to hit some of them. Maybe we can get some discussion going.

Falling back is broken because...

1) They kill my AWESOME UNIT and then I lose.

One unit being destroyed loses you the game? You've got too many points sunk into that one unit. Your opponent saw this because it was obvious. There are ways to "hide" sleeper units through modeling or painting that might help or, much more preferably, you could spread some of those points out more across your list and make it less dependent on a cornerstone.

2) They withdraw every time I assault and that's why I lose.

This could be any number of things...lets break them down a bit.

2a) They literally withdraw every single time.

This tells me you're piecemealing your assault units instead of assaulting with everything all at once. This can happen if you have one unit capable of a first turn assault, a second unit that isn't, and not enough effective shooting to make the expenditure of their lives worth enough to win the game. Either that or you expect having one or two assault units to be enough to win you games on their own. It can also happen if you over-spend on a small number of CC units, and don't spread your points out enough to make the rest of your army capable of winning without them.

In the case of piecemealing your assaults, you can fix it a number of ways. The first is to make sure that all of your assaults are first-turn capable. Depending on your army that can mean doubling down on the psykers or special HQ units (swarmlord), and it's probably going to be expensive, regardless. However, if you want to win by assaulting, it's what you're going to have to do.

The second is to largely ignore first turn assault capability, and just field enough models that your opponent can't possibly kill them before you steamroll him. Orks and nids are good at this. Having one or two units that can possibly get a first turn assault can make for good distractions as successfully assaulting first turn can win you the game by tying up valuable shooting he needs to table you (komandos and lictors are terrific distractions).

If your assault units aren't there to win the game themselves, then it's your shooting that's falling short. Either you're not effectively allocating your shooting, or you spent too much on CC to have your shooting carry you. This is also whats going on if your CC is a kind of broom that's supposed to clean up after your shooting is done making a mess. If a 3rd party list review says your ratios are good, then it's probably an allocation problem and you need to run some numbers and learn what to point your guns at to get rid of them, and generally in what order to make sure your CC survives to actually run cleanup.

3) They withdraw at just the right time, and I barely lose.

You got outplayed. Shake hands, take notes, and get on with your life. Try again next time. Maybe your dice just hated you today. Close games are good. You shouldn't feel bad if it was close.

4) They can withdraw at all, and I don't like it.

This is a feature. Not a bug.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/18 01:46:31


Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
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 Melissia wrote:
 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Pretty much every army that wants to blows gak up down range can do it from first turn
It's a lot easier to mitigate shooting damage the entire game, than it is to mitigate Fight phase damage after a charge. For example, cover.

But for most units, the damage put out by fighting is worse than shooting to begin with. Lack of AP or high strength, losing attacks due to needing to be within a certain distance, special weapons are either restricted to one guy or a special unit that are going to be target #1, and that's before considering dumb stuff like random charge range or overwatch (oh looky, another mechanic with no drawbacks for shooting units!). And most importantly, I can't charge AND be hiding in cover. Scratch that, cover isn't even possible OR useful for 30 boyz because of how they changed how cover.

Want to help support my plastic addiction? I sell stories about humans fighting to survive in a space age frontier.
Lord Harrab wrote:"Gimme back my leg-bone! *wack* Ow, don't hit me with it!" commonly uttered by Guardsman when in close combat with Orks.

Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts.  
   
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Orks have problems that are almost unrelated to this issue. Even if you could stay in combat forever, and never got shot at because your enormous units of boyz are eternally stuck in close combat, that'd still not really save Orks from being the bottom of 8th's barrel.

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The big danger of locking units in combat isn't that the unit will die, it's often only fair that an assault focused army that managed to get across the board should be very killy when it gets there, the problem is that it also makes the assaulting unit invincible to shooting. The amount of murder an assault unit puts out is usually such that if it doesn't wipe out its target on charge it will definitely finish them off in the following fight phase, the opponent's fight phase, which oh how fortunately would leave the assault unit untargetable in the opposing player's shooting phase but then free to act and assault another unit on their own turn.

I definitely do think assaulting units need a bit more utility than just 'i die in the open or i win up close' though, beyond just transport and deep strike options. The new reiver grenades are a nice new tool in the style i'd like to see more of, something you might run a minimum sized squad or 2 of to give up some raw damage output in order to get your meatier assault units in under overwatch which helps mitigate the strengths of falling back as much as the many many existing units with fly or special ability allowances helps buff it. We just need a lot more of that kind of thing and across all the armies.
   
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I don't think most of the complaints are that units can fall back, but that some units can fall back and still act normally or semi normally. Harlequins, Ultras, big stuff like knights, some characters, and anything with fky being the main offenders.

I think that most of this is over reaction, since we are unlikely to see any more full armies that can do this (GW won't let others be as too as the Ultras, right?), but it is something people will have to deal with at times, as it is also unlikely to ever change. Maybe whining to GW will make them change the way fall back works...but I wouldn't hold my breath.

So, I think we have to learn how to handle these lists. Harlequins are clearly the most powerful when it comes to this fall back craziness, with tau and eldar being the next biggest offenders with all that fly, and ultramarines and IG being the least offensive, since they have few vehicles that can take advantage of these rules, unlike the eldar (all kinds) or tau.

How do you handle these lists? Well, first of all, don't assault things if you can't kill them. This might mean bringing a different list if your current one has too many bad assault units in it that want to just taroit things. Shooting is an important part of the game, so I wouldnt just ignore it. Alternately, units like Khorne berzerkers, wulfen, vanguard vets etc can probably just wipe a unit out, and maybe even lock something else up. Either way its hard to be upset when that happens. And if you know a thing is going to fall back when you are done fighting it, be ready for that, or dont assault it half assed. Or, if it is infantry or an ultramarine, try to trap it with your pile in and consolidate moves. Also, try to use those moves to get into assault with other things that can't fall back. I am sure there are other things you can do as well, but I've played whole armies with fly and basically just didn't assault them, or did so knowing they would fall back.

Ultimately I think it comes down to building a list that can handle multiple threats, and playing smart. If there only think your list does is move up and assault things, it better be really good at it and wipe things out before they can get away. Otherwise, maybe your list isn't ready for 8th edition.
   
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The dark behind the eyes.

 Arandmoor wrote:

While I'm a huge fan of the fallback move, I do think there is definite room for assault-army-specific ways to mitigate it. What I don't think the game needs are general methods for every army to mitigate CC, considering that some of the armies in the game are very, very shooting-focused.


Granted, but at the same time the shooty-focused armies are the worst ones in assault in the first place. In any case, I was simply trying to come up with a streamlined mechanic.

 Arandmoor wrote:

Should you be heavily punished for withdrawing from melee with Tau Firewarriors? How about Necron Warriors? Imperial Guard Infantry? I think these armies have enough benefits already.


I think if the Tau player manages to charge a unit with his Fire Warriors - a unit that apparently can't hope to beat those fire warriors in melee - then there should indeed be a penalty for withdrawing. And possibly a medal for that Tau player.

 Arandmoor wrote:
World Eaters? I'd vastly prefer it if they got a way to penalize you from attempting to flee that was unique to them.


Probably not quite what you're looking for, but one possibility would be to roll a d6 for each model that fell back. For each roll of 6+ the unit suffers a Mortal Wound. That would be the base rule.

Then, you could add modifiers to the rule or have the unit roll extra dice. So, for example, World Eaters could force the unit add 1 to the rolls (so that the unit takes a Mortal Wound on a roll of 5+).

Some units could also modify the roll the other way. e.g. Ultramarines could reduce the roll by 1 (so they wouldn't normally take Mortal Wounds, but could still take them if fighting World Bearers with the aforementioned rule, as the modifiers would cancel out).

Something along those lines, anyway.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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The only reason I dislike Fall Back is because it's a lot like all the melee-punishing rules in 7th: it weakens melee as a whole, meaning more and more melee units need bonkers rules to compete or super low cost, and it makes it feel like the melee player has no way to influence the game.

It's a lot like the complaints before overwatch existed: "Why wouldn't my units try to shoot at them as they come in? We have guns pointed right at them?"

The reason melee felt bad in 7th was that there were a lot of times when your deadly berzerk killers just stood around like doofuses and got shot. Deep strike in? Better stand around like a doofus for 30 seconds getting shot. Kill a vehicle in close combat? Stand around the wreck getting shot, no reason these guys would move after killing their target. Charge into cover? Now not only do you get shot as you charge in, they also get to attack you first.

A lot of that got fixed in 8th, but now fall back exists. After your turn is over, your hyper-fast unit of howling banshees fully engaged with the unit of incredibly slow, lumbering guardsmen stops dead in its tracks as the guardsmen just meander away, don't make any move to chase or take cover as the guardsmen stop, pick their noses for a bit, have a smoke, get an order from their commander, take careful aim, and shoot them with a full volley from their weapons.

It's a mechanic very much like getting your movement blocked by a flyer, or watching someone use 9 psychic powers on a combined unit of 10 characters to get a rerollable 2++ in 7th. The game stops being a representation of some kind of combat situation and turns into an abstraction with pieces that don't act like the things they're supposed to represent would.

What would be a better solution?

1) Attack of opportunity. Maybe a single melee attack from each model the unit is leaving, maybe they get to use all pistols they have in an immediate shooting attack, maybe a "Snap-swing" or full round of melee but hitting on a 6. Give it something analogous to Overwatch so it feels tit-for-tat.

2) some way to apply the logic of "it's these guys vs those other guys, so this would happen", like maybe a roll-off+the move stat of the falling back model. That way fast models could easily fall back from slow models, but slow models would have trouble falling back from fast models. +2 if you have Fly maybe.

3) The melee unit gets to act somehow after the fall back move takes place. Even a 3+ consolidate would help get melee units out of rapid fire range, into cover, and might in some edge cases allow the unit to chase and re-engage the unit trying to fall back. If you're running away so slowly that your models end their move only 3" away, well then maybe your attackers should catch you? This would help with the problem of the shooting army almost always having full control over where and when hand to hand combat is fought.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Funny, they didn't remove any of the things that made shooting powerful, or make it any more tactical or strategic. Shooting is a braindead as it's always been, and any expectations on intelligent unit use are being front loaded on assault armies.


I've not been religious for a long time but I'm digging your sermon.
Getting Deathwatch is like flicking the easy switch on the game, choose the right ammo, point and click and watch your opponent fail their saves.
Most shootie armies don't even get to choose between ammo types, just point and click.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm in the roll-off to escape camp.
+1 for fly and +1 for being faster is a neat idea but it doesn't help the Orks much...although I suppose having to make more rolls for theoretically being tangled with more units makes it harder to escape any unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/18 12:01:11


I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
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Edmond Dantes wrote:


 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Potentially, the ENTIRE guard codex (infantry units & get back in the fight orders).


You do realize that leaves the tanks and other armored vehicles, right? . Whose shooting is the heart of the AM's firepower.

And you do realize that the AM have to have officers to give those orders, and that the Company Commander can order 2 units while Lieutenant's can order one unit, right? So that it's basically impossible for all the infantry units in an army to get that fall back and shoot order in the same turn?

Please, just stop.


For 20 or 30 points, why would you ever not have enough orders for all your infantry units???
   
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Denver

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I played an IG player who spammed like 300 models


Assuming that this was in reference to our game it was more like 220. While I suppose the Guardsmen appreciate that the painted horde of them and/or their battlefield performance made it feel like 300 they were not in that range.

Since in the Index world we do not really know what GW's end game looks like with Codices to be released I am wary of saying that fall back will be broken. If ways to mitigate the disadvantages continue to spread while only a handful of units can stop it 9th should probably make some changes (I personally favor a free melee attack from each enemy model that could currently fight that you are running away from, maybe also allow a small consolidation that cannot be used to move within 1" of the enemy so they can get into cover).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GhostRecon wrote:
What are the points levels/lists involved in your example battles, OP?


Spoiler:
Back engineered from other changes over the last few weeks so possibly not 100% accurate, but something like:

2k, 3 detachments

Brigade

Company Commander x3
Command Squad with Lascannon x3
Command Squad with x4 Meltaguns
Command Squad with x3 Melta, x1 Grenade Launcher
Chimera
Scout Sentinel with Multilaser x2
Hellhound
Heavy Weapon Squad with x3 mortars x2
Heavy Weapon Squad with x3 missile launchers
Leman Russ with Eradicator nova cannon
Infantry Squad with Heavy Bolter and Plasmagun x4
Infantry Squad with Autocannon and Plasmagun x3

Battalion

Company Commander
Primaris Psyker - Gaze of the Emperor, Psychic Barrier
Tempestus Scions - x10 with x4 Plasmagun
Conscripts - x50 x2

Vanguard

Company Commander
Commissar
Sgt. Harker
Ministorum Priest

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/18 12:20:55


 
   
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The dark behind the eyes.

What if Falling Back was removed or made much harder, but units could shoot into combat (either with a -1 to hit or with a chance of hitting their own units)?

Kdash wrote:
For 20 or 30 points, why would you ever not have enough orders for all your infantry units???


Because while 20-30pts is cheap, taking one for every 1-2 units of Infantry adds up fast. Especially when you're spending those points on units that can't really do anything on their own.

What's more, if you take enough officers to order every Infantry squad you have, then some of those officers are going to be wasted points the moment you start to lose squads.

Also, Orders just aren't that powerful. Rerolling 1s to hit on a unit that hits on 4s just isn't very strong. FRFSRK can be good but it's also rather situational. And the order you're complaining about isn't nearly as useful as you're making out. Aside from conscripts, most infantry units that get charged aren't going to have much left when your turn rolls around. Frankly, I'd much rather use my orders to buff my other squads, rather than getting a scant few survivors to fire.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

 Melissia wrote:
 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Pretty much every army that wants to blows gak up down range can do it from first turn
It's a lot easier to mitigate shooting damage the entire game, than it is to mitigate Fight phase damage after a charge. For example, cover.


That's a funny joke. Cover is almost entirely useless this edition (my #2 complaint). You can see one ork boyz' elbow around the corner of a building? He and his squad gets no benefit unless the entire squad is inside, not behind, cover, and the whole squad can die. Even if, by some miracle, you manage to have the entire squad in cover, my save goes from a 6+ to a 5+, assuming you don't have save modifiers. Hurray.

Basically, the only way I get saves from shooting is to bring a KFF, which I have to do, every time.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/18 15:30:57


"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




[Expunged from Imperial records] =][=

Why would I be frustrated?

Why, this handy trick allowed less than a handful of my guardsmen to slay a chaos terminator sorcerer warlord with their meltaguns because I had an officer nearby who reminded them that they should keep on fighting.

So yeah, this is good and really handy in the right spot. I'm sure there exists a counter to it, though.

"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!" 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

The only counter to it that I know of that exists in the entirety of the game is that you can't run from dark eldar wytches on a 4+, or something.

That's the only limitation in the entire game, apart from completely enveloping the target unit, which has been very rare in my experience.

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Alpharius Walks wrote:
 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I played an IG player who spammed like 300 models


Assuming that this was in reference to our game it was more like 220. While I suppose the Guardsmen appreciate that the painted horde of them and/or their battlefield performance made it feel like 300 they were not in that range.

Since in the Index world we do not really know what GW's end game looks like with Codices to be released I am wary of saying that fall back will be broken. If ways to mitigate the disadvantages continue to spread while only a handful of units can stop it 9th should probably make some changes (I personally favor a free melee attack from each enemy model that could currently fight that you are running away from, maybe also allow a small consolidation that cannot be used to move within 1" of the enemy so they can get into cover).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GhostRecon wrote:
What are the points levels/lists involved in your example battles, OP?


Spoiler:
Back engineered from other changes over the last few weeks so possibly not 100% accurate, but something like:

2k, 3 detachments

Brigade

Company Commander x3
Command Squad with Lascannon x3
Command Squad with x4 Meltaguns
Command Squad with x3 Melta, x1 Grenade Launcher
Chimera
Scout Sentinel with Multilaser x2
Hellhound
Heavy Weapon Squad with x3 mortars x2
Heavy Weapon Squad with x3 missile launchers
Leman Russ with Eradicator nova cannon
Infantry Squad with Heavy Bolter and Plasmagun x4
Infantry Squad with Autocannon and Plasmagun x3

Battalion

Company Commander
Primaris Psyker - Gaze of the Emperor, Psychic Barrier
Tempestus Scions - x10 with x4 Plasmagun
Conscripts - x50 x2

Vanguard

Company Commander
Commissar
Sgt. Harker
Ministorum Priest


Looks like a pretty standard IG gunline list. What was OP fielding? Fall back doesn't seem like it's the problem here. Only exacerbates what sounds more like problems with list-building or in-game tactics.
   
Made in us
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 Kap'n Krump wrote:
The only counter to it that I know of that exists in the entirety of the game is that you can't run from dark eldar wytches on a 4+, or something.

That's the only limitation in the entire game, apart from completely enveloping the target unit, which has been very rare in my experience.


I believe there's a Chaos special character (Daemon, IIRC) that prevents all models within a certain radius from him from falling back at all.

It really is quite limited, though.
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

GhostRecon wrote:


Looks like a pretty standard IG gunline list. What was OP fielding? Fall back doesn't seem like it's the problem here. Only exacerbates what sounds more like problems with list-building or in-game tactics.


As I recall, 3x groups of boyz, warboss, wierdboy, big mek with kff, gorkanaut, 3x deff dreads, lobbas, commandos.

It's not an ideal list, as I'm well aware that ork walkers are still awful.

But no offense, but you are completely mistaken - falling back was the exact, and only problem. I had no problem making it to combat. I had no problem killing stuff in combat. But whenever I did, either the target unit fell back with no penalty, or it was some tiny unit that fell back and everything else shot me anyways.

Example: I got off da jump on a group of boyz. They made it into combat, after braving 100 ish overwatch shots. They kill some guys, then I pile into a second group. On his turn, both units simply walked away without challenge, both turned around, and blasted me at point blank range with no penalties.

And, to an extent, this was a test game for me. But it's frustrating for me to A). Make a psychic test, B) Get shot in my own turn C) Make a 9+ charge roll, all for the opponent to simply walk away and shoot without penalty, with no rolls required. Just stroll away.

And, again, I get that falling back as a mechanic could be a useful tool for gunline armies. But it needs to not be automatic and unchallenged.

As a thought: If you fall back, I get a free round of combat, but only hit on 6s. (Like inverse overwatch - seems fair). Then we both roll a D6 and add move value. We both move our respective values. If you end your movement outside 1", you're not in combat. But I'm free to give chase or go after a new target. If that seems unfair, well consider that having your front line crumple and rout from an assault is supposed to be a bad thing. Maybe the fleeing unit gets D6 + their movement, the unit they flee from just gets their base movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, adding potential damage and a random element makes falling back a lot more analogous to charging, which seems more fair to me. If charging means I have to take damage in my own turn and only have a chance of succeeding, does it not seem reasonable for the opposite of charging to have similar elements?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/18 18:26:03


 
   
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Springfield, VA

I, for one, am glad shooting armies participate in the game now.

I remember watching games basically ever since 5th where after turn 3 it sounded like: "Okay, your turn." "Alright, well let's go on to the assault phase..."

Because having your whole army in assault meant:

1) You didn't get to do the movement phase.
2) You didn't really get to do the psychic phase (Some powers I guess)
3) You didn't get to tdo the shooting phase
4) You didn't get to do much in the assault phase unless you were an assault unit. 10 dice hitting on 4s wounding on 5's doesn't really count - my computer can do that. I want more engagement.

Now, a shooting army can be engaged in the game even after turn 3.. *shock, horror*
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




As someone who mostly plays shooting armies, I've noticed it's mainly good for screwing over really expensive fragile glass cannon units, who are no longer safe when they get in close, and preventing tarpits from doing much.

It in fact removed most of the incentive for me to run CC armies, beyond one exceptionally deadly unit.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Kap'n Krump wrote:
GhostRecon wrote:


Looks like a pretty standard IG gunline list. What was OP fielding? Fall back doesn't seem like it's the problem here. Only exacerbates what sounds more like problems with list-building or in-game tactics.


As I recall, 3x groups of boyz, warboss, wierdboy, big mek with kff, gorkanaut, 3x deff dreads, lobbas, commandos.

It's not an ideal list, as I'm well aware that ork walkers are still awful.

But no offense, but you are completely mistaken - falling back was the exact, and only problem. I had no problem making it to combat. I had no problem killing stuff in combat. But whenever I did, either the target unit fell back with no penalty, or it was some tiny unit that fell back and everything else shot me anyways.

Example: I got off da jump on a group of boyz. They made it into combat, after braving 100 ish overwatch shots. They kill some guys, then I pile into a second group. On his turn, both units simply walked away without challenge, both turned around, and blasted me at point blank range with no penalties.

And, to an extent, this was a test game for me. But it's frustrating for me to A). Make a psychic test, B) Get shot in my own turn C) Make a 9+ charge roll, all for the opponent to simply walk away and shoot without penalty, with no rolls required. Just stroll away.

And, again, I get that falling back as a mechanic could be a useful tool for gunline armies. But it needs to not be automatic and unchallenged.

As a thought: If you fall back, I get a free round of combat, but only hit on 6s. (Like inverse overwatch - seems fair). Then we both roll a D6 and add move value. We both move our respective values. If you end your movement outside 1", you're not in combat. But I'm free to give chase or go after a new target. If that seems unfair, well consider that having your front line crumple and rout from an assault is supposed to be a bad thing. Maybe the fleeing unit gets D6 + their movement, the unit they flee from just gets their base movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, adding potential damage and a random element makes falling back a lot more analogous to charging, which seems more fair to me. If charging means I have to take damage in my own turn and only have a chance of succeeding, does it not seem reasonable for the opposite of charging to have similar elements?


Hyperbole aside, AM can't fall back and then shoot you with no penalty. They need Orders to make it happen, and using an Order to make a unit that Fell Back means that unit can't take any other orders and the involved Company/Platoon Commander loses an Order (1 of 2 for the Company and 1 of 1 for the Platoon Commander respectively). Not to mention the pts and slot cost for said Commander(s) - not huge, yes, but it all starts to add up. 30 points for AM is 4 Plasma Guns; another 10pts and you can have a whole 'nother infantry squad on the field. It adds up, and while not massive is definitely not 'no penalty.'

Furthermore, you were definitely charging/fighting his Conscript blob from the sounds of it - which, 1) Is exactly what he wants you to do and 2) Doesn't show Fall back being the problem. Conscripts are widely considered to be overpowered thanks to their synergy with Commissars (reducing all morale-based loses to just 1 Conscript) and Orders (letting this 50-some wound blob with lasguns eat your charge and then turn around to fire in his turn). And even if Conscripts weren't OP, they really only exist to tarpit and swamp - so eating an Ork charge is exactly what they're for.

And beyond all that a key part of the problem is definitely list building in this case. Orks seem to be at the bottom of the power curve currently, while AM is near the top (if not the top) by comparison. As such, you can't afford to be less efficient if you want to fight a list that is reasonably competitive - and while your opponent's list might not be one of the hyper-OP 'true' Conscript-wave armies that people are decrying your opponent still has a list with a potent variety of firepower and durability. Of the ~2000 pts you had available, you spent some ~400-450 on the Deff Dreads alone - that's enough for about two more full-strength blobs of Orks, nearly doubling the amount of bodies you have absorbing hits. Add in a Painboy or two for the 6+ FNP and you have some 150 Boyz who all have a 16% chance to negate any wound done to them as they Advance across the board.

What would your current list do against a 'true' Green Tide force, for example? With 5-6 full Ork mobs with Painboyz and Waagh! banner buffs?

Like it or not, but until the Orks get their Codex and unless that Codex makes some strong balance changes Orks are one of the weaker forces in 8th Ed and only a few lists - such as a Green Tide list - seem to be reasonably capable.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/18 19:17:59


 
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal




Newark, CA

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
GhostRecon wrote:


Looks like a pretty standard IG gunline list. What was OP fielding? Fall back doesn't seem like it's the problem here. Only exacerbates what sounds more like problems with list-building or in-game tactics.


As I recall, 3x groups of boyz, warboss, wierdboy, big mek with kff, gorkanaut, 3x deff dreads, lobbas, commandos.

It's not an ideal list, as I'm well aware that ork walkers are still awful.

But no offense, but you are completely mistaken - falling back was the exact, and only problem. I had no problem making it to combat. I had no problem killing stuff in combat. But whenever I did, either the target unit fell back with no penalty, or it was some tiny unit that fell back and everything else shot me anyways.

Example: I got off da jump on a group of boyz. They made it into combat, after braving 100 ish overwatch shots. They kill some guys, then I pile into a second group. On his turn, both units simply walked away without challenge, both turned around, and blasted me at point blank range with no penalties.


So, which was it? Did the two units that fell back turn and shoot you? Or was it everything else? Because unless those two units could fly, they couldn't advance, charge, or shoot the turn they fell back. Or did he consume orders to let them shoot you instead of using them to do other things? Either way, nothing he did was "un-penalized". He paid to be able to do that.

Also, no offense, this doesn't sound like a problem. It sounds like you're just mad that you got into melee, and your opponent got to do things other than sit there and remove models while you rolled dice for four turns.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

And, to an extent, this was a test game for me. But it's frustrating for me to A). Make a psychic test, B) Get shot in my own turn C) Make a 9+ charge roll, all for the opponent to simply walk away and shoot without penalty, with no rolls required. Just stroll away.


Again, there are penalties. Either your opponent was shooting with squads he should not have been shooting with, or you were charging the wrong units, or your opponent set up his force to counter yours and you got outplayed.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

And, again, I get that falling back as a mechanic could be a useful tool for gunline armies. But it needs to not be automatic and unchallenged.


It's not unchallenged. You already got to punch them in the face before they sounded the retreat and gave up the option to advance, shoot, or charge in their next turn.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

As a thought: If you fall back, I get a free round of combat, but only hit on 6s. (Like inverse overwatch - seems fair). Then we both roll a D6 and add move value. We both move our respective values. If you end your movement outside 1", you're not in combat. But I'm free to give chase or go after a new target. If that seems unfair, well consider that having your front line crumple and rout from an assault is supposed to be a bad thing. Maybe the fleeing unit gets D6 + their movement, the unit they flee from just gets their base movement.


Then overwatch should also reduce your charge range. If you can't justify a unit that was just charged simply up and walking away, how can you justify a unit getting shot at just up and walking into melee?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, adding potential damage and a random element makes falling back a lot more analogous to charging, which seems more fair to me. If charging means I have to take damage in my own turn and only have a chance of succeeding, does it not seem reasonable for the opposite of charging to have similar elements?


The "random element" to charging can be easily removed simply by moving closer enough to your charge target that you cannot fail the charge roll.

Where's the equivilent to falling back whereby the unit that falls back cannot be charged in the next turn because they "got away"?

I know where it is. It involves getting enough of their fellow soldier pointing enough guns at the charging unit to wreck them until they break and run.

...and you want to take that away? The problem is that being able to "lock" your opponent in CC doesn't actually let the player who got charged play the game. It's not fun to get charged if you're shooting focused with CC-lock because it puts the game into an auto-pilot mode that you're going to lose.

In exchange for the removal of that auto-pilot, they eviscerated template weapons. If you want CC locking back, we could also go back to letting shooting armies completely table you first turn.

Does that sound fun? Because it's really the only other way to balance things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/18 19:44:29


 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

I am aware that get back in the fight is an order that has to be issued. But give me a break, 30 points to give orders to 2 units is absurdly cheap. Barely more expensive than a power klaw. And it happens automatically to any squad without a test. So, while I am being a bit hyperbolic, meet me halfway and admit that it's neither difficult nor expensive to accomplish granting get back in the fight pretty much at will.

And like I said, I know that dreads are still bad, and yes, I can spam nothing but boyz squads and wierdboyz. And maybe the only answer to spam is more spam, but it's a little dull.

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






 Arandmoor wrote:
 Kap'n Krump wrote:
GhostRecon wrote:


Looks like a pretty standard IG gunline list. What was OP fielding? Fall back doesn't seem like it's the problem here. Only exacerbates what sounds more like problems with list-building or in-game tactics.


As I recall, 3x groups of boyz, warboss, wierdboy, big mek with kff, gorkanaut, 3x deff dreads, lobbas, commandos.

It's not an ideal list, as I'm well aware that ork walkers are still awful.

But no offense, but you are completely mistaken - falling back was the exact, and only problem. I had no problem making it to combat. I had no problem killing stuff in combat. But whenever I did, either the target unit fell back with no penalty, or it was some tiny unit that fell back and everything else shot me anyways.

Example: I got off da jump on a group of boyz. They made it into combat, after braving 100 ish overwatch shots. They kill some guys, then I pile into a second group. On his turn, both units simply walked away without challenge, both turned around, and blasted me at point blank range with no penalties.


So, which was it? Did the two units that fell back turn and shoot you? Or was it everything else? Because unless those two units could fly, they couldn't advance, charge, or shoot the turn they fell back. Or did he consume orders to let them shoot you instead of using them to do other things? Either way, nothing he did was "un-penalized". He paid to be able to do that.

Also, no offense, this doesn't sound like a problem. It sounds like you're just mad that you got into melee, and your opponent got to do things other than sit there and remove models while you rolled dice for four turns.

Allways easier to get shot at than charging these rules underlines it. You really are mad assault is even possible

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

And, to an extent, this was a test game for me. But it's frustrating for me to A). Make a psychic test, B) Get shot in my own turn C) Make a 9+ charge roll, all for the opponent to simply walk away and shoot without penalty, with no rolls required. Just stroll away.


Again, there are penalties. Either your opponent was shooting with squads he should not have been shooting with, or you were charging the wrong units, or your opponent set up his force to counter yours and you got outplayed.

Not really a penalty when cheap screens cant shoot or charge, and its not hard to deply forcing a melee armys targets. He didnt get outplayed, he just didnt bring a shooty army, since assault armies are subpar.


 Kap'n Krump wrote:

And, again, I get that falling back as a mechanic could be a useful tool for gunline armies. But it needs to not be automatic and unchallenged.


It's not unchallenged. You already got to punch them in the face before they sounded the retreat and gave up the option to advance, shoot, or charge in their next turn.

Yeah punched an entire 60 points unit in the dust! REALLY STRONG!

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

As a thought: If you fall back, I get a free round of combat, but only hit on 6s. (Like inverse overwatch - seems fair). Then we both roll a D6 and add move value. We both move our respective values. If you end your movement outside 1", you're not in combat. But I'm free to give chase or go after a new target. If that seems unfair, well consider that having your front line crumple and rout from an assault is supposed to be a bad thing. Maybe the fleeing unit gets D6 + their movement, the unit they flee from just gets their base movement.


Then overwatch should also reduce your charge range. If you can't justify a unit that was just charged simply up and walking away, how can you justify a unit getting shot at just up and walking into melee?

Oh you would love reducing movement distance wouldn't you? How about WS too, perhaps full BS overwatch or 10 damage a shot because you are right in the line of sight?
And regarding to the unit getting shot and stil getting into melee being unrealistic in your eyes, not everyone makes it in.


 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, adding potential damage and a random element makes falling back a lot more analogous to charging, which seems more fair to me. If charging means I have to take damage in my own turn and only have a chance of succeeding, does it not seem reasonable for the opposite of charging to have similar elements?


The "random element" to charging can be easily removed simply by moving closer enough to your charge target that you cannot fail the charge roll.


Where's the equivilent to falling back whereby the unit that falls back cannot be charged in the next turn because they "got away"?

I know where it is. It involves getting enough of their fellow soldier pointing enough guns at the charging unit to wreck them until they break and run.

...and you want to take that away? The problem is that being able to "lock" your opponent in CC doesn't actually let the player who got charged play the game. It's not fun to get charged if you're shooting focused with CC-lock because it puts the game into an auto-pilot mode that you're going to lose.

In exchange for the removal of that auto-pilot, they eviscerated template weapons. If you want CC locking back, we could also go back to letting shooting armies completely table you first turn.

Does that sound fun? Because it's really the only other way to balance things.

Rules prohibit getting closer than 9" in deepstrike rules, not all armies have access to first turn guaranteed charge. So what you are saying is assault armies can go back to 7th edition and get completely tabled or stay in 8th and get dominated by shooting. Neither is acceptable


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 13:09:57


 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





cedar rapids, iowa

Too many people forget that pile and consolidate can prevent a unit from falling back if you place the models correctly.

You cannot move if you have to move thru enemy models, you can easily trap units by piling in around them.

Flying units are pretty expensive imo, that's the balancing factor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Melissia wrote:
Orks have problems that are almost unrelated to this issue. Even if you could stay in combat forever, and never got shot at because your enormous units of boyz are eternally stuck in close combat, that'd still not really save Orks from being the bottom of 8th's barrel.


What? Orks are hardly bottom, and these reaction threads are exactly that....a reaction. Players still do not understand how assault works, how to manipulate the pile in and consolidate phases, remembering pistols can fire into combat, etc.

I'd be more interested from people in this thread on solutions to the issues the player seems to have then just ripping armies to shreds before we even know what is going on.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 13:29:09


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Brutallica wrote:
 Arandmoor wrote:
 Kap'n Krump wrote:
GhostRecon wrote:


Looks like a pretty standard IG gunline list. What was OP fielding? Fall back doesn't seem like it's the problem here. Only exacerbates what sounds more like problems with list-building or in-game tactics.


As I recall, 3x groups of boyz, warboss, wierdboy, big mek with kff, gorkanaut, 3x deff dreads, lobbas, commandos.

It's not an ideal list, as I'm well aware that ork walkers are still awful.

But no offense, but you are completely mistaken - falling back was the exact, and only problem. I had no problem making it to combat. I had no problem killing stuff in combat. But whenever I did, either the target unit fell back with no penalty, or it was some tiny unit that fell back and everything else shot me anyways.

Example: I got off da jump on a group of boyz. They made it into combat, after braving 100 ish overwatch shots. They kill some guys, then I pile into a second group. On his turn, both units simply walked away without challenge, both turned around, and blasted me at point blank range with no penalties.


So, which was it? Did the two units that fell back turn and shoot you? Or was it everything else? Because unless those two units could fly, they couldn't advance, charge, or shoot the turn they fell back. Or did he consume orders to let them shoot you instead of using them to do other things? Either way, nothing he did was "un-penalized". He paid to be able to do that.

Also, no offense, this doesn't sound like a problem. It sounds like you're just mad that you got into melee, and your opponent got to do things other than sit there and remove models while you rolled dice for four turns.

Allways easier to get shot at than charging these rules underlines it. You really are mad assault is even possible

You sort of missed the point - if you made it into melee against a shooting army in prior editions, they didn't actually get to play the game. They sorta sat there, driving their tanks around making little phhhhbbbt noises, while your unit slowly blenderized everything. If it was well-planned, you could be essentially immune to the game for 4 turns. That's what he's happy doesn't happen anymore.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

And, to an extent, this was a test game for me. But it's frustrating for me to A). Make a psychic test, B) Get shot in my own turn C) Make a 9+ charge roll, all for the opponent to simply walk away and shoot without penalty, with no rolls required. Just stroll away.


Again, there are penalties. Either your opponent was shooting with squads he should not have been shooting with, or you were charging the wrong units, or your opponent set up his force to counter yours and you got outplayed.

Not really a penalty when cheap screens cant shoot or charge, and its not hard to deply forcing a melee armys targets. He didnt get outplayed, he just didnt bring a shooty army, since assault armies are subpar.

Cheap screens are exactly the counter to the tactic of frontal assaults. If 'the enemy has screens' shuts down your assault army, then perhaps you need more maneuverability than 'drive forwards, disembark, charge the closest things'. It's an improvement, in my opinion, that assault armies actually have to maneuver around things like screens. The fact that there may not be enough space on a 6x4 to maneuver may be an issue, but that's table size, not tactical concept. Besides, things like outflank and deep strike mitigate it somewhat.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

And, again, I get that falling back as a mechanic could be a useful tool for gunline armies. But it needs to not be automatic and unchallenged.


It's not unchallenged. You already got to punch them in the face before they sounded the retreat and gave up the option to advance, shoot, or charge in their next turn.

Yeah punched an entire 60 points unit in the dust! REALLY STRONG!

This happens less if you don't just blitz into the first cheap throwaway unit you see and expect to win the game. Charging conscripts or the like is literally what they're for. You're doing them a favour.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

As a thought: If you fall back, I get a free round of combat, but only hit on 6s. (Like inverse overwatch - seems fair). Then we both roll a D6 and add move value. We both move our respective values. If you end your movement outside 1", you're not in combat. But I'm free to give chase or go after a new target. If that seems unfair, well consider that having your front line crumple and rout from an assault is supposed to be a bad thing. Maybe the fleeing unit gets D6 + their movement, the unit they flee from just gets their base movement.


Then overwatch should also reduce your charge range. If you can't justify a unit that was just charged simply up and walking away, how can you justify a unit getting shot at just up and walking into melee?

Oh you would love reducing movement distance wouldn't you? How about WS too, perhaps full BS overwatch or 10 damage a shot because you are right in the line of sight?
And regarding to the unit getting shot and stil getting into melee being unrealistic in your eyes, not everyone makes it in.


I don't know if you're making enough of a point here to counterpoint, but actually I think your first point is invalid: having your front line crumple and rout from an assault is actually a perfectly normal thing. Screening units / pickets / forward positions warning of an impending assault are always a thing. If you charge the enemy's front line and they break off: congratulations, you just drove back their picket line. Now the real battle begins. I don't know why that's upsetting? Or unrealistic?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, adding potential damage and a random element makes falling back a lot more analogous to charging, which seems more fair to me. If charging means I have to take damage in my own turn and only have a chance of succeeding, does it not seem reasonable for the opposite of charging to have similar elements?


The "random element" to charging can be easily removed simply by moving closer enough to your charge target that you cannot fail the charge roll.


Where's the equivilent to falling back whereby the unit that falls back cannot be charged in the next turn because they "got away"?

I know where it is. It involves getting enough of their fellow soldier pointing enough guns at the charging unit to wreck them until they break and run.

...and you want to take that away? The problem is that being able to "lock" your opponent in CC doesn't actually let the player who got charged play the game. It's not fun to get charged if you're shooting focused with CC-lock because it puts the game into an auto-pilot mode that you're going to lose.

In exchange for the removal of that auto-pilot, they eviscerated template weapons. If you want CC locking back, we could also go back to letting shooting armies completely table you first turn.

Does that sound fun? Because it's really the only other way to balance things.

Rules prohibit getting closer than 9" in deepstrike rules, not all armies have access to first turn guaranteed charge. So what you are saying is assault armies can go back to 7th edition and get completely tabled or stay in 8th and get dominated by shooting. Neither is acceptable


With command point re-rolls, armies absolutely can get first turn charges. Bring enough deep-strikers (say, 3) and you're guaranteed to get one in. And not all assault armies have access to first turn charges - the only one I can think of is pure Khorne Berzerkers. Orks have Da Jump, Tyranids have the Swarmlord, Sisters have Acts of Faith, and most others can deepstrike.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 13:35:19


 
   
Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Brutallica wrote:
 Arandmoor wrote:
 Kap'n Krump wrote:
GhostRecon wrote:


Looks like a pretty standard IG gunline list. What was OP fielding? Fall back doesn't seem like it's the problem here. Only exacerbates what sounds more like problems with list-building or in-game tactics.


As I recall, 3x groups of boyz, warboss, wierdboy, big mek with kff, gorkanaut, 3x deff dreads, lobbas, commandos.

It's not an ideal list, as I'm well aware that ork walkers are still awful.

But no offense, but you are completely mistaken - falling back was the exact, and only problem. I had no problem making it to combat. I had no problem killing stuff in combat. But whenever I did, either the target unit fell back with no penalty, or it was some tiny unit that fell back and everything else shot me anyways.

Example: I got off da jump on a group of boyz. They made it into combat, after braving 100 ish overwatch shots. They kill some guys, then I pile into a second group. On his turn, both units simply walked away without challenge, both turned around, and blasted me at point blank range with no penalties.


So, which was it? Did the two units that fell back turn and shoot you? Or was it everything else? Because unless those two units could fly, they couldn't advance, charge, or shoot the turn they fell back. Or did he consume orders to let them shoot you instead of using them to do other things? Either way, nothing he did was "un-penalized". He paid to be able to do that.

Also, no offense, this doesn't sound like a problem. It sounds like you're just mad that you got into melee, and your opponent got to do things other than sit there and remove models while you rolled dice for four turns.

Allways easier to get shot at than charging these rules underlines it. You really are mad assault is even possible

You sort of missed the point - if you made it into melee against a shooting army in prior editions, they didn't actually get to play the game. They sorta sat there, driving their tanks around making little phhhhbbbt noises, while your unit slowly blenderized everything. If it was well-planned, you could be essentially immune to the game for 4 turns. That's what he's happy doesn't happen anymore.

And now shooting armys can become immune by screening, move out of combat focus fire with entire army. There needs to be some penalty/danger/chance for leaving combat,
but as it is now, most melee armies got a harder time.


 Kap'n Krump wrote:

And, to an extent, this was a test game for me. But it's frustrating for me to A). Make a psychic test, B) Get shot in my own turn C) Make a 9+ charge roll, all for the opponent to simply walk away and shoot without penalty, with no rolls required. Just stroll away.


Again, there are penalties. Either your opponent was shooting with squads he should not have been shooting with, or you were charging the wrong units, or your opponent set up his force to counter yours and you got outplayed.

Not really a penalty when cheap screens cant shoot or charge, and its not hard to deply forcing a melee armys targets. He didnt get outplayed, he just didnt bring a shooty army, since assault armies are subpar.

Cheap screens are exactly the counter to the tactic of frontal assaults. If 'the enemy has screens' shuts down your assault army, then perhaps you need more maneuverability than 'drive forwards, disembark, charge the closest things'. It's an improvement, in my opinion, that assault armies actually have to maneuver around things like screens. The fact that there may not be enough space on a 6x4 to maneuver may be an issue, but that's table size, not tactical concept. Besides, things like outflank and deep strike mitigate it somewhat.

And what mobility is that? Its easy to shut down drop zones with sceening. And that said i dont mind screens, but them being another turn of guaranteed shooting against the melee army is not OK. So again my empathis is that its not really a penalty for the shooty army when his cheap sceens cant shoot but the entire army can.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

And, again, I get that falling back as a mechanic could be a useful tool for gunline armies. But it needs to not be automatic and unchallenged.


It's not unchallenged. You already got to punch them in the face before they sounded the retreat and gave up the option to advance, shoot, or charge in their next turn.

Yeah punched an entire 60 points unit in the dust! REALLY STRONG!

This happens less if you don't just blitz into the first cheap throwaway unit you see and expect to win the game. Charging conscripts or the like is literally what they're for. You're doing them a favour.

Im doing shooting armys a favor by fielding a melee army per the rules as they stand

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

As a thought: If you fall back, I get a free round of combat, but only hit on 6s. (Like inverse overwatch - seems fair). Then we both roll a D6 and add move value. We both move our respective values. If you end your movement outside 1", you're not in combat. But I'm free to give chase or go after a new target. If that seems unfair, well consider that having your front line crumple and rout from an assault is supposed to be a bad thing. Maybe the fleeing unit gets D6 + their movement, the unit they flee from just gets their base movement.


Then overwatch should also reduce your charge range. If you can't justify a unit that was just charged simply up and walking away, how can you justify a unit getting shot at just up and walking into melee?

Oh you would love reducing movement distance wouldn't you? How about WS too, perhaps full BS overwatch or 10 damage a shot because you are right in the line of sight?
And regarding to the unit getting shot and stil getting into melee being unrealistic in your eyes, not everyone makes it in.


I don't know if you're making enough of a point here to counterpoint, but actually I think your first point is invalid: having your front line crumple and rout from an assault is actually a perfectly normal thing. Screening units / pickets / forward positions warning of an impending assault are always a thing. If you charge the enemy's front line and they break off: congratulations, you just drove back their picket line. Now the real battle begins. I don't know why that's upsetting? Or unrealistic?

In your explanation i understand what you are saying, but in 40k we have to adhere by the 2" apart rule when you are a unit. But what you are trying to say is that it dosent matter if you charge on bikes, foot or whatever, because somehow in an abstract vision your unit is split apart but not represented on the table. Its a game with frekin plastic models, just make it fair for both sides, thats ALL i ask.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, adding potential damage and a random element makes falling back a lot more analogous to charging, which seems more fair to me. If charging means I have to take damage in my own turn and only have a chance of succeeding, does it not seem reasonable for the opposite of charging to have similar elements?


The "random element" to charging can be easily removed simply by moving closer enough to your charge target that you cannot fail the charge roll.


Where's the equivilent to falling back whereby the unit that falls back cannot be charged in the next turn because they "got away"?

I know where it is. It involves getting enough of their fellow soldier pointing enough guns at the charging unit to wreck them until they break and run.

...and you want to take that away? The problem is that being able to "lock" your opponent in CC doesn't actually let the player who got charged play the game. It's not fun to get charged if you're shooting focused with CC-lock because it puts the game into an auto-pilot mode that you're going to lose.

In exchange for the removal of that auto-pilot, they eviscerated template weapons. If you want CC locking back, we could also go back to letting shooting armies completely table you first turn.

Does that sound fun? Because it's really the only other way to balance things.

Rules prohibit getting closer than 9" in deepstrike rules, not all armies have access to first turn guaranteed charge. So what you are saying is assault armies can go back to 7th edition and get completely tabled or stay in 8th and get dominated by shooting. Neither is acceptable


With command point re-rolls, armies absolutely can get first turn charges. Bring enough deep-strikers (say, 3) and you're guaranteed to get one in. And not all assault armies have access to first turn charges - the only one I can think of is pure Khorne Berzerkers. Orks have Da Jump, Tyranids have the Swarmlord, Sisters have Acts of Faith, and most others can deepstrike.

Yeah i CAN get first turn charges by deepstrike, not garanteed by any means! But its garanteed that im gonna get shot to bits against a shooting opponent with just abit of sensebility and especially if i deep striked within rapid fire and failed my charge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 14:16:17


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Actually, fun fact relevant to this thread: You don't actually need to completely encircle a squad to stop them falling back, you just need to have enough models encircled/entrapped that they can't get away. It's easier to accomplish than you'd think with an infantry assault, especially if you encircle special characters or heavy/special weapons your opponent is less likely to remove as casualties.


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

How about a reverse overwatch? If a unit falls back, melee opponents get free round of attacks, that only hit on a 6?

It never ends well 
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block




the_scotsman wrote:
Actually, fun fact relevant to this thread: You don't actually need to completely encircle a squad to stop them falling back, you just need to have enough models encircled/entrapped that they can't get away. It's easier to accomplish than you'd think with an infantry assault, especially if you encircle special characters or heavy/special weapons your opponent is less likely to remove as casualties.



Indeed.

Simply encircling one model from a unit means the whole unit cannot fall back.
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy






IMHO even if I myself play almost full melee Orks, I find the fallback rule a really good idea. We have no more to endure boring 4 turns H2H. It's true that it's more of an advantage for shooty army, but I'm pretty sure even melee army will have some use for this.

As I see it, sure it forces me to thinik carrefully during my movement/charge phases, but I see it as a good thing plus it opens interesting possibilities.

As it is, I'm much more frustrated by overwatch which I feel does not make any sense (why can you shot twice only if you are charged ? why only overwatch shot ? why not psychic overwatch ? movement overwatch ? counter charge ?) but it's for another debate and I guess we are all too much accustomed to it.
   
 
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