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My repsonse would be a bit biased, being a Harlequin player and all. Considering that falling back and doing things is our only reall calling.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:


That's a funny joke. Cover is almost entirely useless this edition (my #2 complaint). You can see one ork boyz' elbow around the corner of a building? He and his squad gets no benefit unless the entire squad is inside, not behind, cover, and the whole squad can die. Even if, by some miracle, you manage to have the entire squad in cover, my save goes from a 6+ to a 5+, assuming you don't have save modifiers. Hurray.

Basically, the only way I get saves from shooting is to bring a KFF, which I have to do, every time.

Cover doesn't work like this. Read the FAQ.

Which part of the cover rules don't work as above? Because, per the faq:

"For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long as all the models in that unit are either on or partially within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover."

Additionally, while I can allocate wounds to any model in a unit, it doesn't have to be within LOS or range of the attackers, that's right out of the rulebook.

If cover doesn't work like this, I would like to know how it does.

The only type of cover that protects a unit not wholly within it are barricades, to my knowledge.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be wrong on this, but I don't see how I am, per the rulebook and FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:
How about a reverse overwatch? If a unit falls back, melee opponents get free round of attacks, that only hit on a 6?

Yeah, I think that would be fair. I still think there should be some test to outrun me too, but I think if I have to take potential damage on the way in, you should take some on the way out.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Which part of the cover rules don't work as above? Because, per the faq:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:
How about a reverse overwatch? If a unit falls back, melee opponents get free round of attacks, that only hit on a 6?

Yeah, I think that would be fair. I still think there should be some test to outrun me too, but I think if I have to take potential damage on the way in, you should take some on the way out.

I would like something like this. Penalties for both sounds fair (appreciate that this would require lots of play testing for an actual rule change).

For now much more strategy is required if you're a melee based army and a shooting based army I feel is very simple.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
"For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long as all the models in that unit are either on or partially within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover."

This doesn't say "you only get cover bonuses if your entire squad is completely obscured by the terrain", no matter how much you try to tell yourself it does. You need to be on, partially on, within, or partially within the terrain. Even just the slightest bit of your model's base touching the terrain would count, because you're on or partially within the terrain. So you have a squad of boyz that's mostly inside of hte building, but because not all of them fit in it, a few of them are outside behind it, their bases touching the building. They would be ON that terrain piece, or partially within it. They get cover.

It's only TFGs that try to argue cover never works in 8th.


(amusingly, this entire debate doesn't count for the Aegis Defense Line, which merely requires you to be within 1" of it on the other side of the line from the shooter)

Well it is interesting though that if you have 1 model that isn't touching the tiny lip of a baseless ruins building, the entire squad doesn't get cover.

GW needs to do a better job writing cover rules for 8th, for specific terrain pieces that they sell, specifically those without bases.

 Marmatag wrote:
Well it is interesting though that if you have 1 model that isn't touching the tiny lip of a baseless ruins building, the entire squad doesn't get cover.

GW needs to do a better job writing cover rules for 8th, for specific terrain pieces that they sell, specifically those without bases.

In theory, yes.

In practice, you just...remove that guy first, and then you get cover for the rest of the squad because magically, NOW the entire squad is in cover.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
"For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long as all the models in that unit are either on or partially within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover."

This doesn't say "you only get cover bonuses if your entire squad is completely obscured by the terrain", no matter how much you try to tell yourself it does. You need to be on, partially on, within, or partially within the terrain. Even just the slightest bit of your model's base touching the terrain would count, because you're on or partially within the terrain. So you have a squad of boyz that's mostly inside of hte building, but because not all of them fit in it, a few of them are outside behind it, their bases touching the building. They would be ON that terrain piece, or partially within it. They get cover.

It's only TFGs that try to argue cover never works in 8th.


(amusingly, this entire debate doesn't count for the Aegis Defense Line, which merely requires you to be within 1" of it on the other side of the line from the shooter)

I completely agree with you, infantry doesn't have to be obscured to gain cover, they have to all be inside cover.

That's the entire problem, in my opinion. It's pretty difficult to get 30 guys all within one piece of cover at all times, in my experience. And the fact that shooting through terrain confers no bonus like last edition still seems off to me.

And even though this irks me slightly, the benefits for cover are (generally, for my army) so miniscule that it's mostly a non-issue.

And yes, I know you can kill off the guys outside cover first so that the remainder is in cover. I've found that too to largely be unhelpful.

nekooni wrote:
As an IG player I can tell you that
* Infantry is a meat shield to block your melee units from getting to my tanks and artillery
* when my infantry falls back, I have to get out of melee range. On an open field? sure, no problem - but if those guardsmen are with their backs against my artillery, that's an issue.
* Only my infantry can get back in the fight and shoot after falling back. My tanks and artillery will be useless once you've broken through.
* even for infantry falling back has it's downside - I cant order them to do anything else , eg reroll 1s toHit.

Have you actually played against any of the armies you're complaining about yet? I'm asking because as an IG player it's not easy to keep you off of my guys. I've got no clue what's good in your index, but I know you have transports, I know you have bikes and I know that you have stuff that can deepstrike. It's just no longer the case that once you're within charge range you just tear my guard apart without any opposition.

Our transports are crap this edition. A trukk costs more then the squad it transports and once it gets its squad to its destination its just a 80+pt lump of plastic that doesn't do much.

We also have Battlewagons which are nice and shiny and also cost more then the unit they are supposed to be transporting, the upside is the BW gets a Deff Rolla which doesn't suck, but definitly not worth the price tag.

Bikers? Our bikers lost durability this edition and went up in price 50% We gained 2inches of movement but again we can't advance and charge so those 2 inches aren't worth much except to get those dakka gunz in range, which btw are now too expensive to spam. (1 Razorback w/Twin AC is equivalent to 4 Warbikers in dakka and the warbikers are more expensive and less durable, have no AP value on weapons)

We do have units that can Deep strike. We have Kommandos who are boyz with +1 to cover, and who can take 2 burnas for free. They can't actually hurt anything usually but they do a nice job of distracting opponents who are scared of them. We also have Deff Koptas which I love but who are dramatically over priced for what little they can do. (No point equipping Twin rokkitz since they cost 28pts this edition instead of being free) We also have Warbuggies/Trakks and Skorchas which do the same thing as Koptas but worse.

We also completely lack Dakka almost across the board and we have next to nothing for anti-flyer and Anti-tank weaponry. Our answer to almost every problem in this edition is CC, and right now we have a hard time even getting into CC with our blobs and when we do our opponent runs away and shoots that unit off the table.

SemperMortis wrote:

nekooni wrote:
As an IG player I can tell you that
* Infantry is a meat shield to block your melee units from getting to my tanks and artillery
* when my infantry falls back, I have to get out of melee range. On an open field? sure, no problem - but if those guardsmen are with their backs against my artillery, that's an issue.
* Only my infantry can get back in the fight and shoot after falling back. My tanks and artillery will be useless once you've broken through.
* even for infantry falling back has it's downside - I cant order them to do anything else , eg reroll 1s toHit.

Have you actually played against any of the armies you're complaining about yet? I'm asking because as an IG player it's not easy to keep you off of my guys. I've got no clue what's good in your index, but I know you have transports, I know you have bikes and I know that you have stuff that can deepstrike. It's just no longer the case that once you're within charge range you just tear my guard apart without any opposition.

Our transports are crap this edition. A trukk costs more then the squad it transports and once it gets its squad to its destination its just a 80+pt lump of plastic that doesn't do much.

We also have Battlewagons which are nice and shiny and also cost more then the unit they are supposed to be transporting, the upside is the BW gets a Deff Rolla which doesn't suck, but definitly not worth the price tag.

Bikers? Our bikers lost durability this edition and went up in price 50% We gained 2inches of movement but again we can't advance and charge so those 2 inches aren't worth much except to get those dakka gunz in range, which btw are now too expensive to spam. (1 Razorback w/Twin AC is equivalent to 4 Warbikers in dakka and the warbikers are more expensive and less durable, have no AP value on weapons)

We do have units that can Deep strike. We have Kommandos who are boyz with +1 to cover, and who can take 2 burnas for free. They can't actually hurt anything usually but they do a nice job of distracting opponents who are scared of them. We also have Deff Koptas which I love but who are dramatically over priced for what little they can do. (No point equipping Twin rokkitz since they cost 28pts this edition instead of being free) We also have Warbuggies/Trakks and Skorchas which do the same thing as Koptas but worse.

We also completely lack Dakka almost across the board and we have next to nothing for anti-flyer and Anti-tank weaponry. Our answer to almost every problem in this edition is CC, and right now we have a hard time even getting into CC with our blobs and when we do our opponent runs away and shoots that unit off the table.

All transports cost more than the squad they are carrying this edition and are you unaware that vechicles can charge, that is hardly useless. Also, all bikes lost jinks but I don't consider gaining an extra wound a loss in durability. With your commandos you can now charge with them making them way more usfull in 8th. Also wtf do you mean you dont have AT weapons, do tankbustas or lootas not count?

It's base cost 75, 3 strength 7 attacks, the shoota or the rokkit, it's open topped, and it can eat overwatch shots for you. Maybe it's a little over priced, but not much. Dont discount open topped. It can even carry jump infantry or meganobs. It's only 84 points with the shoota and wreckin ball. The rhino costs 70 points bare, and is clearly inferior to the trunk in my opinion. What do you think it should be dropped to?

Tau player here, I have been so underwhelmed with overwatch (despite whole detachments doing it together and taking rerolls to misses) that I'd be totally ok with doing an inverse overwatch when falling back on the condition that tidewall models aren't autohit by inverse overwatch. I agree that giving orders to shoot after falling back is a strategic option in both list building and on the field choice so it should stay the same. Fly should also stay the same as its expensive and necessary tactic for things like crisis suits, and speed should not be more of a hindrance than it already is for the slow.

All models within 1" of an enemy unit that is using the fall back maneuver can make all of their melee attacks, up to once per turn, hitting on 6 regardless of modifiers. Models in a unit doing so may choose to shoot a pistol targeting the same unit but may not make close combat attacks.

That way if you have 30 boys around my 10 fire warriors and you wiff all of your attacks and don't surround me you can, on my turn as I fall back with darkstride's assistance, get lets say 15 boys with choppas and 15 boys with sluggas to shoot. That's an average of (15boys*3attacks*(1/6hit)*(2/3wound)*(1/2 armor save)=2 wounds of 1 damage each for choppas and (15boys * 1 attack * (1/6hit)*(2/3wound)*(1/2 armor) is 1 more damage. That's 3 fewer fire warriors shooting at you on their turn, maybe. If you had 2 units tied up I'd only be able to order one out while the other stands dumbfounded and out of breath at their retreat. Pitty the fool who brought shootas.

The thing is, if you killed a unit outright you'd still be standing in the middle of nowhere getting shot at by the rest of my army unless you consolidated onto innocent bystanders that don't get overwatch. It's BS IMO that assaulters get to move, sometimes advance (cough tyranids with +1adv and charge) and charge d6 then also move 3 then move 6 again. Now that unit that got consolidated onto has to forfeit a turn if it doesn't fly or equivalent even though it didn't do combat at all. But go ahead and take inverse overwatch, that's doable. Full combat isn't because it takes too long, movement tests could punish the wrong units, and leadership has enough function already.

Oh and the thing that anecdotally ground my gears (fairly unrelated) was that I had a model surrounded in melee by nurglings, and my whole army wasn't allowed to shoot at his warlord standing completely out in the open with no nearby units. I wasn't allowed to shoot him or the nurglings, only pile in and throw terrible punches. It sucked.

 Brutallica wrote:
Space Wolves melee army, im frustrated about it. I get shot to peices quite brutally.

So i figured, lets celebrate 8th editions "love for close combat" by getting myself a tank division for my space wolves. Well played GW, more money in your pocket.

If you're a true Vlka Fenryka you'll pull yourself up, and not whine like a bloody smurf. Getting shot to crap? Bring some fire support, we don't just spam wulfen and thunderwolves anymore. All my wins in 8th have not had a single wulfen or thundercalv unit. Yes I do bring melee heavy things as well.

Anyway, OP

I'm not frustrated, it's a mechanic of the game and I enjoy it. With how the rules and army lists are it's fine. You say things are negating it, however there are things that will prevent it. In AoS (8th edition's foundation, if you will) there are rules that prevent people from running away and im 100% sure they're going to add those into the game in some shape or form that an enemy cannot retreat from combat.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Which part of the cover rules don't work as above? Because, per the faq:

"For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long as all the models in that unit are either on or partially within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover."

Additionally, while I can allocate wounds to any model in a unit, it doesn't have to be within LOS or range of the attackers, that's right out of the rulebook.

If cover doesn't work like this, I would like to know how it does.

It helps the unit once those models that are not in cover have been removed.

You have 20 boys, 18 of them are in cover. There is no cover until two are removed, then the cover kicks in,

 KingCorpus wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Space Wolves melee army, im frustrated about it. I get shot to peices quite brutally.

So i figured, lets celebrate 8th editions "love for close combat" by getting myself a tank division for my space wolves. Well played GW, more money in your pocket.

If you're a true Vlka Fenryka you'll pull yourself up, and not whine like a bloody smurf. Getting shot to crap? Bring some fire support, we don't just spam wulfen and thunderwolves anymore. All my wins in 8th have not had a single wulfen or thundercalv unit. Yes I do bring melee heavy things as well.

Anyway, OP

I'm not frustrated, it's a mechanic of the game and I enjoy it. With how the rules and army lists are it's fine. You say things are negating it, however there are things that will prevent it. In AoS (8th edition's foundation, if you will) there are rules that prevent people from running away and im 100% sure they're going to add those into the game in some shape or form that an enemy cannot retreat from combat.

If im a true Vlka Fenryka, im gonna goddamn voice my oppinion about close combat being inferior to shooting and not be censored by some Tau sympathisers!

And i got plenty of fire support to go around in my lists. While i enjoy outshooting my opponents, id also like the option to be a more dedicated melee army wich is where the Wolves belong.

The issue is that it makes bad assault units worse. It means assault units have to destroy whatever they hit in one round and preferably have a turn one charge.

Yes a unit may not be able to shoot after it falls back but if the alternative was staying in a massively one sided assault where they would suffer a lot more casualties that isnt a real cost. Being able to shoot the assaulting unit with other units is a considerable advantage. Most of the time it seems a no-brainer.

I don't think I'd object to a free single attack made on a 6 if people disengaged. It would actually mean that things like power fists and thunderhammers would be unable to hit, unless you have a +1, but I'm okay with that.

Tyel wrote:
The issue is that it makes bad assault units worse. It means assault units have to destroy whatever they hit in one round and preferably have a turn one charge.

Yes a unit may not be able to shoot after it falls back but if the alternative was staying in a massively one sided assault where they would suffer a lot more casualties that isnt a real cost. Being able to shoot the assaulting unit with other units is a considerable advantage. Most of the time it seems a no-brainer.

I really haven't had a problem going for mostly turn 2 assaults with my DE. The only thing that tries on my turn is the Mandrakes as kind of a "why not" to see if I get the 9" charge on a vehicle or something.

Usually against a mostly shooty army i lose a transport or two and then the rest of my army charges the next turn with my surviving vehicles tanking overwatch and I can get most of the opposing force tied up in combat. Fall back is usually not much of a concern at that point.

Malifice wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Actually, fun fact relevant to this thread: You don't actually need to completely encircle a squad to stop them falling back, you just need to have enough models encircled/entrapped that they can't get away. It's easier to accomplish than you'd think with an infantry assault, especially if you encircle special characters or heavy/special weapons your opponent is less likely to remove as casualties.

Indeed.

Simply encircling one model from a unit means the whole unit cannot fall back.

This bears repeating again. 3" of pile-in followed by 3" of consolidation makes it fairly easy to leave at least one enemy model without a base-width route out of combat. Then it's only Harlequins and units with Fly that get to fall back out of the combat.

All transports cost more than the squad they are carrying this edition and are you unaware that vechicles can charge, that is hardly useless. Also, all bikes lost jinks but I don't consider gaining an extra wound a loss in durability. With your commandos you can now charge with them making them way more usfull in 8th. Also wtf do you mean you dont have AT weapons, do tankbustas or lootas not count?

Rhinos cost 70pts, they are designed to transport 10 Marines usually. 10 Marines cost 130pts without upgrades.

Trukkz Cost 82pts were originally designed for TrukkBoyz, 11boyz and a Nob. That costs 72pts without upgrades.

I am well aware that Trukkz and other vehicles can charge, which is why I specifically pointed out that the Battlewagon with a Deff Rolla isn't terrible, just not points effective.

I am further aware that all Bikes lost Jink, But giving them +1 wounds does not make them as or more durable. Last edition warbikers would have a 4+ jink OR a 3+ and in some cases a 2+ Jink. On turn 1 if you had skilled rider, Night fighting or were able to turbo-boost you had a 3+ or better Jink save. If that Warbike unit got hit by a bunch of Autocannon shots, lets say 8, 6+ would wound and against that 3+ save you would lose 2 models at most, if you had the 2+ it would be 1. Now? Those same warbikers get hit by 8 Autocannon shots they are getting wounded now by 6ish and with a -1 AP modifier and 2 damage base...well that 4+ save just became a 5+ so those 6 wounds now just killed 4 bikers. So yeah, I would say they lost durability.

Kommandos definitely got a buff, just not a big enough one. +1 to cover saves sounds nice but keep in mind you have to deploy them in cover 1st turn which means you probably won't be getting a charge off to get that bonus, and if you deploy them in the open to get that charge you have a slightly better then 50/50 to get the charge off. If you do get the charge off 10 marines in rapid fire range will kill 1-2 Kommandos on average from overwatch, leaving you with 2 Burnas and a Nob to take on that squad, don't get me wrong I like this and use this but it isn't all that great.

Finally, Anti-Tank. For starters you have to keep Tank bustas and Lootas inside a trukk or wagon this edition because cover doesn't do as much as it used to for them and with 6+ saves and relatively high costs for those weapons it means you are going to die if left out of a vehicle. So for starters lets tack on another 80pts for the cost of the Trukk they are required to take. Next lets see what good they are against vehicles. 12 Lootas crammed into a trukk average 24 shots, 8 hits and against T6/7/8 they get 6, 4 and 2 wounds. They have -1 AP so those 2+ and 3+ saves become 3+ and 4+. which means on average against 6 wounds they will cause 2-3 wounds causing 4-6 damage. Against T7 they cause 1-2 wounds resulting in 2-4 damage and against T8 they cause 0-1 wounds causing 0-2 damage. How much do 12 lootas in a trukk cost? 286pts. Does that damage output seem worth 286pts?

What about Tank Bustas? First off, they REALLY require a trukk because they have short ranged weapons. So lets Cram 12 into a Trukk ( I am not going to talk about Squig Bombs) If they get into range lets see how they do against T6-8 vehicles (not MCs) Tank bustas get rerolls to hit against Vehicles keep that in mind. So 12 Tankbustas will hit 4 times with the first batch and 2-3 times with the 2nd Total of 6-7 hits. Versus Toughness 6/7/8 vehicles that is 4/3/2 wounds respectively, against those 2+ and 3+ saves they become 4+ and 5+ (-2AP) Toughness 6 gets 2 and 3 wounds causing 6-9 Damage Toughness 7 gets 1-2 wounds causing 3-6 Damage and T8 gets 1-2 wounds causing 3-6 Damage. Cost of those Tankbustas in a Trukk? 286pts as well.

So yeah I will stick with my initial comment that Orkz lack Anti-Tank weapons out side of CC.

 argonak wrote:

Spoiler:

SemperMortis wrote:

nekooni wrote:
As an IG player I can tell you that
* Infantry is a meat shield to block your melee units from getting to my tanks and artillery
* when my infantry falls back, I have to get out of melee range. On an open field? sure, no problem - but if those guardsmen are with their backs against my artillery, that's an issue.
* Only my infantry can get back in the fight and shoot after falling back. My tanks and artillery will be useless once you've broken through.
* even for infantry falling back has it's downside - I cant order them to do anything else , eg reroll 1s toHit.

Have you actually played against any of the armies you're complaining about yet? I'm asking because as an IG player it's not easy to keep you off of my guys. I've got no clue what's good in your index, but I know you have transports, I know you have bikes and I know that you have stuff that can deepstrike. It's just no longer the case that once you're within charge range you just tear my guard apart without any opposition.

Our transports are crap this edition. A trukk costs more then the squad it transports and once it gets its squad to its destination its just a 80+pt lump of plastic that doesn't do much.

We also have Battlewagons which are nice and shiny and also cost more then the unit they are supposed to be transporting, the upside is the BW gets a Deff Rolla which doesn't suck, but definitly not worth the price tag.

Bikers? Our bikers lost durability this edition and went up in price 50% We gained 2inches of movement but again we can't advance and charge so those 2 inches aren't worth much except to get those dakka gunz in range, which btw are now too expensive to spam. (1 Razorback w/Twin AC is equivalent to 4 Warbikers in dakka and the warbikers are more expensive and less durable, have no AP value on weapons)

We do have units that can Deep strike. We have Kommandos who are boyz with +1 to cover, and who can take 2 burnas for free. They can't actually hurt anything usually but they do a nice job of distracting opponents who are scared of them. We also have Deff Koptas which I love but who are dramatically over priced for what little they can do. (No point equipping Twin rokkitz since they cost 28pts this edition instead of being free) We also have Warbuggies/Trakks and Skorchas which do the same thing as Koptas but worse.

We also completely lack Dakka almost across the board and we have next to nothing for anti-flyer and Anti-tank weaponry. Our answer to almost every problem in this edition is CC, and right now we have a hard time even getting into CC with our blobs and when we do our opponent runs away and shoots that unit off the table.

It's base cost 75, 3 strength 7 attacks, the shoota or the rokkit, it's open topped, and it can eat overwatch shots for you. Maybe it's a little over priced, but not much. Dont discount open topped. It can even carry jump infantry or meganobs. It's only 84 points with the shoota and wreckin ball. The rhino costs 70 points bare, and is clearly inferior to the trunk in my opinion. What do you think it should be dropped to?

Open topped is useless for anything except shooting out of, and Orkz SUCK at shooting. Just look up to my breakdown of Lootas/Tankbustas to see that proven. Yes it has 3 attacks but it has WS5 so those S7 wrecking ball attacks will hit 1 time on average, and versus T4 that averages .66wounds w/-1AP which means versus Marines you will statisticaly kill .33Marines a turn with it...As for the Shoota/Rokkit? Well the shoota is 6pts and fires 3 shots at S5 which averages again 1 hit and versus T4 thats .66 wounds and against 3+ saves thats .22 Dead Marines a turn......With the Rokkit it will hit 1/3rd of the time so twice in a 6 turn game. It will wound on 2+ against T4 on average and will reduce the save by 2 making that 3+ save a 5+ so statistically again you are likely killing 1 Marine a game with it. For carrying Jump INfantry? it can carry 6 Stormboyz, not exactly scary, and the only reason to do that is to give them that extra 3inches of movement on Turn 1 and 6 stormboyz aren't worth it since they have 3 attacks each at S4. Meganobz? Yeah they pretty much need a trukk as well and this edition they stink as well. 3 attacks each hitting on 4s? for that hefty price tag? no thanks.

What do I think it should be dropped to? maybe 15pts more then it was last edition. It really isn't worth 85pts (Big shoota/Wrecking Ball)


So did my points make sense? do I need to clarify anything else?

I guess I'm just a terrible player then, because meched up Orks are terrifying for BA. I guess I don't own enough Stormravens. :(

Martel732 wrote:
I guess I'm just a terrible player then, because meched up Orks are terrifying for BA. I guess I don't own enough Stormravens. :(

Why martel? 10-12 boyz hopping out of a Trukk aren't exactly frightening. (12 boyz = 36 attacks, 24 hits and 12 wounds vs T4. Vs that 3+ save you end up with 4 casualties on average) Is that really scary? The Trick right now to Orkz winning is foot slogging hordes and some weirdboy spam everything else is just distractions.

It's not just the trukks. It's the battlewagons full of pain backed up by trukks. The battlewagons are pretty hard to stop for a "standard" BA list with lots of short ranged weapons. I know that's not how they're being used, though. It's painful to bring a bunch of lascannons over melta for me. The Stormraven spam thing has me really bummed out because it's so DUMB.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not just the trukks. It's the battlewagons full of pain backed up by trukks. The battlewagons are pretty hard to stop for a "standard" BA list with lots of short ranged weapons. I know that's not how they're being used, though. It's painful to bring a bunch of lascannons over melta for me. The Stormraven spam thing has me really bummed out because it's so DUMB.

In a 2,000pt game you can bring a lot of boyz and Trukkz/battlewagons but not nearly as much as last edition. Trukkz/Battlewagons also LOST their #1 ability from last edition which was assaulting from the transport, now everyone has it, but they can't move first. Boyz also got slower.

So that 2,000 list. Trukkz (w/Wreckin Ball) filled with Boyz and a free nob with no upgrades cost (85+72) 157pts Last edition that same unit cost 117pts. Those boyz also got weaker on the charge then last edition. 11 boyz and 1 nob on the charge last edition had 44 S4 attacks and 5 S5 attacks, this edition they have 33 and 4.

The Battlewagon equipped with a deff rolla with 19 boyz and a free nob costs 300pts (Last edition that same mob cost 240pts) Those boyz have +1 attack per model right up until they lose 1 model....

So 1 trukk and 1 wagon costs 457pts so you can fit 4 wagons and 5 trukkz filled with boyz into a 2,000pt game Thats 4 Wagons, 5 Trukkz and 140boyz. Of course that isn't factoring in the required HQs and what not but just for a comparison. Going with just boyz, no vehicles you could field 11 Mobz of 30 Boyz each, or 330 Boyz and still have about 20pts left over.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I don't think I'd object to a free single attack made on a 6 if people disengaged. It would actually mean that things like power fists and thunderhammers would be unable to hit, unless you have a +1, but I'm okay with that.

I believe that the rule for overwatch states that a 6 is required to hit irrespective of any modifiers. So if this "melee overwatch" rule was written the same way the power fists would still hit.

Reverse overwatch seems like a fantastic idea!