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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/18/chapter-focus-white-scars-july18gw-homepage-post-3/

Not terribly excited by that Chapter trait, given that it's yet another method to ignore negatives of Fallback. They may charge in a turn in which they Fall Back, but they cannot make a shooting attack. So the opposite of the Ultramarines chapter.

As well, they're faster when advancing. Cool.

The stratagem looks like it'll be deadly as all hell for an all-biker list.

White Scars assault marines are going to be pretty badass. Jump out of assault, spray some flamers on their opponent, and then charge back in, getting to attack first.

Strange how the CTs previewed so far seem to favour units not usually associated with their chapters...

ectoplastic wrote:
White Scars assault marines are going to be pretty badass. Jump out of assault, spray some flamers on their opponent, and then charge back in, getting to attack first.

Strange how the CTs previewed so far seem to favour units not usually associated with their chapters...

The CT does not say that you can make a shooting attack after falling back. Only that you can Charge after falling back. Otherwise, the White Scars CT would be objectively better than the Ultramarines CT. Ultramarines CT says they may Shoot in a turn in which they Fell Back, with -1 to hit.

 Thadin wrote:

ectoplastic wrote:
White Scars assault marines are going to be pretty badass. Jump out of assault, spray some flamers on their opponent, and then charge back in, getting to attack first.

Strange how the CTs previewed so far seem to favour units not usually associated with their chapters...

The CT does not say that you can make a shooting attack after falling back. Only that you can Charge after falling back. Otherwise, the White Scars CT would be objectively better than the Ultramarines CT. Ultramarines CT says they may Shoot in a turn in which they Fell Back, with -1 to hit.

Assault Marines have fly so can already shoot when they fall back.

 Thadin wrote:

ectoplastic wrote:
White Scars assault marines are going to be pretty badass. Jump out of assault, spray some flamers on their opponent, and then charge back in, getting to attack first.

Strange how the CTs previewed so far seem to favour units not usually associated with their chapters...

The CT does not say that you can make a shooting attack after falling back. Only that you can Charge after falling back. Otherwise, the White Scars CT would be objectively better than the Ultramarines CT. Ultramarines CT says they may Shoot in a turn in which they Fell Back, with -1 to hit.

All units with Fly can attack after falling back. Assault Marines have Fly.

Hot damn well color me excited for the World Eaters now! If White Scars get something this good I can't wait to see what my bois in blood soaked blue are getting!

Edit: Re-read charge rules. Alright, yeah that's super strong for Assault Marines. My mistake.

 Thadin wrote:
Then im not seeing how the White Scars CT will even effect them. Since they have Fly, Assault Marines already ignore the downsides of Falling Back.

They can move faster, that's it.

Because Fly ONLY allows you to shoot after Falling back. pg 3 of the Core Rules

ectoplastic wrote:

 Thadin wrote:
Then im not seeing how the White Scars CT will even effect them. Since they have Fly, Assault Marines already ignore the downsides of Falling Back.

They can move faster, that's it.

Because Fly ONLY allows you to shoot after Falling back. pg 3 of the Core Rules

Just checked that. Makes it a lot better for Assault Marines, definitely. Shame I don't have any, and no plans to pick up any for the time being.

A strong CT for sure, but I don't think ill make much use of it, given the forces I've got.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Hot damn well color me excited for the World Eaters now! If White Scars get something this good I can't wait to see what my bois in blood soaked blue are getting!

Aye, bring forth the Legion rules! I want World Eaters with +1A and +1S (as if they didn't have enough attacks already) and Night Lords causing fear (since that would actually do something this edition) and negative leadership modifiers! (I doubt we will get anything that good but it's nice to pretend)

You know, it's really funny how chapter tactics promote unfluffy lists.

White scars CT really benefits dreadnaught spam but is not really that good for bikes and regular marines.

Ravenguard CT is amazing for devastator gunlines but not that great for assault marines.

This looks like the least powerful one so far. As-is I'm not sure how often it happens that my great CC unit is locked in combat at the start of my movement phase and there's another unit close by that it wants to be fighting instead. I guess sometimes a unit will get stuck in a tar pit close to a better target.

Even so, at best this tactic means that your opponent doesn't charge your CC units with his tar pit (which is rare), and that your opponent always falls back and shoots you rather than sticking around (which happens most of the time anyway). There's no reason to give you a free fight if it doesn't lock you down. So this is very specialized and I expect it's only occasionally relevant.

Faster Advancing is kind of nice, but how often are you Advancing? Ravenwing Jink seems to be a lot better in that case.

Given that their stratagem is advance, fire and charge I guess they will be advancing quite often.

Dionysodorus wrote:
This looks like the least powerful one so far. As-is I'm not sure how often it happens that my great CC unit is locked in combat at the start of my movement phase and there's another unit close by that it wants to be fighting instead. I guess sometimes a unit will get stuck in a tar pit close to a better target.

Even so, at best this tactic means that your opponent doesn't charge your CC units with his tar pit (which is rare), and that your opponent always falls back and shoots you rather than sticking around (which happens most of the time anyway). There's no reason to give you a free fight if it doesn't lock you down. So this is very specialized and I expect it's only occasionally relevant.

Faster Advancing is kind of nice, but how often are you Advancing? Ravenwing Jink seems to be a lot better in that case.

Are you kidding? This is amazing. Unless your opponent has a unit that has a rule that says it always strikes first, your entire army can simply fall back and recharge, taking ineffective overwatch in most cases in order to strike first again in assault. Not the best plan against some units, certainly, such as units with mass flamers, but against most units, or dedicated combat units it's amazing.

It also means that you can charge, damage a unit, then on your next turn fall back, have other units shoot it up, and then charge it again to finish it up.

Or with the shown example of assault marines, charge unit A, fall back behind the unit, flamer it or another, then charge unit B that was using A as a screen while your bikes/whatever finish off unit A.

I have to wonder how many points these chapter tactics are going to cost. As it is, a lot of the powers we've seen so far can be used to some pretty massive effect.

 Fafnir wrote:
I have to wonder how many points these chapter tactics are going to cost. As it is, a lot of the powers we've seen so far can be used to some pretty massive effect.

My guess would be it won't be a points cost, but rather an army construction cost. Likely you may only use these chapter tactics if all the units in your detachment have them, ALA Ynarri.

Deadawake1347 wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
This looks like the least powerful one so far. As-is I'm not sure how often it happens that my great CC unit is locked in combat at the start of my movement phase and there's another unit close by that it wants to be fighting instead. I guess sometimes a unit will get stuck in a tar pit close to a better target.

Even so, at best this tactic means that your opponent doesn't charge your CC units with his tar pit (which is rare), and that your opponent always falls back and shoots you rather than sticking around (which happens most of the time anyway). There's no reason to give you a free fight if it doesn't lock you down. So this is very specialized and I expect it's only occasionally relevant.

Faster Advancing is kind of nice, but how often are you Advancing? Ravenwing Jink seems to be a lot better in that case.

Are you kidding? This is amazing. Unless your opponent has a unit that has a rule that says it always strikes first, your entire army can simply fall back and recharge, taking ineffective overwatch in most cases in order to strike first again in assault. Not the best plan against some units, certainly, such as units with mass flamers, but against most units, or dedicated combat units it's amazing.

It also means that you can charge, damage a unit, then on your next turn fall back, have other units shoot it up, and then charge it again to finish it up.

Or with the shown example of assault marines, charge unit A, fall back behind the unit, flamer it or another, then charge unit B that was using A as a screen while your bikes/whatever finish off unit A.

This will wreck the hell out of the current "OMG Conscripts are SO GOOD". Unit of assault marines charge the conscripts to get close, fall back, fly over the conscripts to land where they can either shoot the commissar and/or charge him or charge something juicy that the mass of conscripts were protecting.

Deadawake1347 wrote:

Are you kidding? This is amazing. Unless your opponent has a unit that has a rule that says it always strikes first, your entire army can simply fall back and recharge, taking ineffective overwatch in most cases in order to strike first again in assault. Not the best plan against some units, certainly, such as units with mass flamers, but against most units, or dedicated combat units it's amazing.

It also means that you can charge, damage a unit, then on your next turn fall back, have other units shoot it up, and then charge it again to finish it up.

Or with the shown example of assault marines, charge unit A, fall back behind the unit, flamer it or another, then charge unit B that was using A as a screen while your bikes/whatever finish off unit A.

I don't feel like this is really engaging with what I said. How often do you actually have lots of good CC units in combat at the start of your turn? If you just have one then you don't need to re-charge to strike first. How often are you charging and then staying in combat through your opponent's whole turn with a unit that you actually want to be prioritizing? How often are your assault marines with flamers, specifically, in combat at the start of your turn?

As I said, I feel like all of this happens very rarely. The standard response to getting charged by good CC units is to fall back and shoot them with other things. You stay in combat only if your unit is a tarpit and can take it and you don't want to be shooting the unit it's fighting. This tactic means that instead of that, you fall back 1" with your tar pit and try to block movement. I don't think I have seen a single game of 8th where a player had multiple good CC units engaged at the start of their turn against things that they really wanted to avoid taking fight phase attacks from. If you're in combat with assault marines with flamers, you fall back and then shoot them up with extremely high priority because they can already fall back and shoot you, and they're going to do a lot of damage in your own fight phase. This tactic means that you have even more reason to do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vonjankmon wrote:

This will wreck the hell out of the current "OMG Conscripts are SO GOOD". Unit of assault marines charge the conscripts to get close, fall back, fly over the conscripts to land where they can either shoot the commissar and/or charge him or charge something juicy that the mass of conscripts were protecting.

Why aren't the Conscripts just falling back and then shooting the Assault Marines alongside a bunch of other stuff? Is this actually how people are playing Conscripts, where they're trying to tarpit Assault Marines?

I hope they give something to the other chapters. BA, GK, DA, SW.

combined with their Chapter Tactics, it’s going to be very hard to defend against getting repeatedly charged by a White Scars army.

Sounds like fun. Not

True, but it's not incredibly difficult for an army to tie multiple things up in a turn. I've seen it, I've done it. In fact that's the major way to overpower shooting armies with an assault based force. If you throw one thing into combat, then certainly they're going to fall back and shoot you with everything else. The trick is to make it so that if they want to do that, they have to fall back with multiple units. I'm not saying that this is the most powerful thing ever, but it seems quite good to me.

I hope salamanders get something good

If the leaks are correct, Salamanders basically get a free command point for every squad every turn. Iron hands get an army wide warlord trait.

I hope the leaks are correct

INFINITE REROLLS
DON'T LET YOUR DREAMS BE CREAMS!

2 free CPs surely? One for the hit roll, one for the wound?

Pretty good. WS are my usual chapter choice. I play them as Shooty bike spam so at first glance the UM tactics might be better suited, but locking down units/vehicles and forcing fall backs can be good for them too, if I have units to support and shoot back. Then it's just another charge to lock. So Instead of trying to smash their lines I just kinda grapple and hold them instead for my "mounted Archers" to finish off.

Sadly, I think the need for a unit to actually survive a charge in the first place, while having Assault take precedence over shooting means the unit that will benefit the most from White Scar tactics is...

...the Assault Terminator. With Hammer and Shield at that.

Wat.

But a unit that falls back cannot charge or shoot (unless FLY) in the same turn, and cannot shoot at enemy models 1" or less away. If a White Scars army is slamming into your gunline, then the unit you charged is out of combat effectiveness for a turn. If you play smart against defense in depth, you can fall back behind the enemy gunline and move to 1" distance of enemy models, preventing shooting and giving you more options of what to charge. It favors bikers because bikes have 14" movement vs jump pack marines with 12" movement. A savvy gunline defense of bolters/lasguns will deploy 18" away on order to be able to move up and reliably deliver rapid fire support to the front line. Bikers are more reliable choice in this scenario.

This might make Daemonettes more powerful.

You cannot withdraw from combat with them.

Pack Daemonettes into your combat, with more powerful units, and you negate a lot of these chapter tactics.

Just another reason why summoning is really powerful, too. You're facing white scars? Summon Daemonettes, instead of Bloodletters, Pink Horrors, or what have you.

 Etonaman wrote:
But a unit that falls back cannot charge or shoot (unless FLY) in the same turn, and cannot shoot at enemy models 1" or less away. If a White Scars army is slamming into your gunline, then the unit you charged is out of combat effectiveness for a turn. If you play smart against defense in depth, you can fall back behind the enemy gunline and move to 1" distance of enemy models, preventing shooting and giving you more options of what to charge. It favors bikers because bikes have 14" movement vs jump pack marines with 12" movement. A savvy gunline defense of bolters/lasguns will deploy 18" away on order to be able to move up and reliably deliver rapid fire support to the front line. Bikers are more reliable choice in this scenario.

I think jump packs will be better as they can deepstrike in, assault the chaff and tie it up. Stay locked in, then jump over the enemy chaff in their "fall back" to assault things behind the lines. You also cannot move within 1" of enemy models unless you charge them, or pile into them.