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2017/07/20 02:31:00
Subject: Re:Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
Daemonhost Cherubael wrote: Really loving these amazing comments! Especially when nobody has even answered the question
No, you just don't like "this is a stupid question that is based on stereotypes and doesn't even have anything to do with reality" as an answer. You might as well talk about how qualified "today's millennials" are at fighting the magical unicorns from space, it's about as relevant to the real world as a hypothetical draft.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2017/07/20 02:45:49
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
Hordini wrote: A very large portion of the military right now are already millennials - that should tell you something. There have been multiple Medal of Honor recipients who are millennials. Most of the anti-millennial criticism is pure golden age fallacy.
Chute82 wrote: I think we would be ok if the new generation would have to fight if ww3 broke out, labeling millions of millennial young men and women as wimps just isn't true.. same could be said of any generation I know plenty of my generation x that wouldn't last 1 minute in the job I did in the army... of course your going to have your anti war protest people but also millions who will step up to fight for their country.
I'll also chime in. Yes, enough would step up if called and do what needs to be done. The vast majority of active duty is made of these 'kids'. 'Kids' who signed up during time of war, and re-enlisted in time of war. 'Kids' who have deployed and done more time in country than my Dad did in Vietnam (he was in country just over a year). There are some tough guys and gals in this generation.
They need different training mechanisms (they learn differently than I do) and they need leaders who 'get' them and know how to motivate them and bring them home.
But yes, they could handle a draft if it came to it.
I'm sure we would have Code Pink types on steroids protesting a draft, and there ARE a lot of kids in this generation who would fall prey to those types. Enough would serve though, and serve well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/20 02:46:29
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2017/07/20 02:54:44
Subject: Re:Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
Spinner wrote: I think a more relevant question might be 'can today's Boomers handle not starting WWIII', honestly.
This is a good question. Why are the Boomers so obsessed with starting pointless foreign wars? Especially after living through Vietnam, the height of pointless foreign war.
My generation either started in 1977 or 1982 depending on who you ask. Either way by the time the War on Terror began Millennials were already a sizeable chunk of the Armed Forces. We're the ones who've done most of the dying the last 15 years, and this question still gets asked by the generation that seems incapable of not sending us to die.
So as a serious answer? feth no. If WWIII is some pointless foreign conflict that's just going to get lots of young Americans killed when the country they're dying for has taken more than its given, then the country can just go feth off But then that's kind of a moot point isn't it? I'm dead in the middle of Generation Y, and I'm already too old for Selective Service. More than half my generation is. In five to eleven more years (date range for the end of Gen Y is 1996-2004), we all will be too old for the draft. So not only is the question pointlessly demeaning and already answered by the last decade, but it's the completely wrong question!
Will the Centennials be able to handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
teknoskan wrote: Most soldiers that receive Purple Hearts are no longer alive to accept them. As far as that goes, I would gladly pay the cost to make that Purple Heart to give to that soldier's family.
That's incorrect. In WWII almost 1m purple hearts were given out, with 300k for deaths. The Korean war had 137k Purple Hearts, with 34k for deaths. Vietnam had another 200k Purple Hearts, 47k for deaths. So something around a quarter of purple hearts are for deaths, which is not the 'most' that you claimed.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2017/07/20 04:03:53
Subject: Re:Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2017/07/20 05:08:55
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
Daemonhost Cherubael wrote:Really loving these amazing comments! Especially when nobody has even answered the question
Plenty of people answered the question;
Spoiler:
teknoskan wrote:I don't think we would have that problem. Your assumption is that military enlistment is going to be a problem when/if WW3 happens and that a draft will be necessary. Sure enlistment has gone down but that's because we don't live in a time of megalomaniacal regimes like we had back in WWII. Vietnam was a mistake on part of our government and as such military training and selection has become more stringent.
We also have more technological advances that could aid us if such a thing were to occur.
However, the problem with your assessment is the mindset of millennials. What made many dodge the Vietnam draft was that the people knew there was nothing patriotic about going to war with a country experiencing its own civil war. Where as the patriotism was much higher during WWII because it was a global threat to the safety of America and their way of life.
If WW3 were to happen, and America was a target, rest assured many people would take arms, regardless of their ability to enlist. Even millennials. They have to protect their iPods afterall.
But in anycase, the closest threat we currently have to our national security is North Korea, and even their only ally, China, is telling them they're going too far.
Hordini wrote:A very large portion of the military right now are already millennials - that should tell you something. There have been multiple Medal of Honor recipients who are millennials. Most of the anti-millennial criticism is pure golden age fallacy.
Grey Templar wrote:There might be a good amount of draft dodging. But it wouldn't be very successful since everybody has an online footprint. You'd probably have a lot of people getting found because they kept posting on facebook.
But it's highly unlike a draft would ever be necessary even if we got involved in a war with another major power(assuming it doesn't escalate to nukes everywhere). If we got in a world war with, say, China, you'd still probably see enough volunteers to keep the army supplied for a long time. Especially since the armed forces are no longer men only.
I do think the selective service should change to no longer be men only.
nfe wrote:You'd get lots of conscientious objectors, certainly, a good thing, but it's worth noting that the millennials of, for instance, Israel, Denmark, and Finland cope just fine.
Not that I want treat the OP with any seriousness when it's just 'kids have got it so easy! Wah wah wah! When I was young all I had was a wooden train and three hand-me-down books! And the ability to buy property and support myself through university without loans! But these pampered kids have it all!'.
Nonsense.
Whirlwind wrote:I think this is being looked at the wrong way. If we assume approximately 25million 18-24 year olds that means 29% are in a physical condition to join the army immediately. That's 7.25 million people they could draft instantly.
I think what about 400,000 were drafted in WWII? So in terms of physical numbers they would be fine. I think the logistics of arming/feeding/clothing that number of people might be more problematic.
Also people are likely to be more aware of the realities of war because of the media and there may be more resistance to a general call up.
And finally WWIII won't be won by the number of soldiers but by the number of nukes. An army of 10,000 is worthless when you drop a nuclear bomb on it. Things will likely escalate too fast for a drafts to be worthwhile.
Vaktathi wrote:The very idea of a draft is essentially obsolete. Any conflict that would require it would go nuclear in very short order and render the whole thing moot. Even if it didnt, the structural changes required to society, the government, and the military would take quite some time. More to the point, if attrition rates were high enough to require a draft, equipment would probably be a bigger issue. If the US outright lost 1000 tanks and IFV's, unrecoverably, there is no replacing those. No new US Abrams tank hull has been made in over two decades, those facilities no longer exist, all new tanks have been rebuilt old ones, and they cant be produced at any pace that would match battlefield losses. If the US lost fifty F22's, it would take many years and cost more than the GDP of most nations to replace them as those production facilities would have to be rebuilt almost from scratch and production time is tremendous. The weapons and vehicles of WW2 were dramatically more primitive than what we have today, but were orders of magnitude simpler and cheaper, you could produce three P51 fighters for the modern equivalent of $3 million, which is about 1-2% of the cost of a single F22, and they could produce dozens of P51's every day as opposed to a handful of F22's per year (assuming a new plant was built, or that such is even possible). If you're taking human losses that would require a draft, there is no way we could afford or produce in a timely manner any the equipment of the modern military that would replace such losses.
This makes the question rather moot.
To say nothing of the fact that almost everyone in a combat role today would be considered a "millenial", basically anyone younger than their very late 30's.
since you responded to none of them it's pretty evident you only posted this to stir a gakpot. I'm sorry that you've miserably failed at that.
Daemonhost Cherubael wrote: Really loving these amazing comments! Especially when nobody has even answered the question
Have you tried reading the thread? Is that too hard for you? Pretty funny that you can't even put in the effort to read a couple short pages of text while bawling,
Daemonhost Cherubael wrote: 'Kids these days are so weak and spoiled~! They're so terrible, unlike the awesome hard working people who came before and were totally different! (btw, reading is hard and I can't do it, somebody help me, waaaaaah!"
"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..." Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe.
2017/07/20 21:34:35
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
They going to be fought with hyper sonic missiles and such not WW2 mass infirinaty and such.
Very fee nations have industry to supply a meat grinder war like that.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/07/20 22:49:15
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
jhe90 wrote: Modern warfare and tech has changed alot.
They going to be fought with hyper sonic missiles and such not WW2 mass infirinaty and such.
Very fee nations have industry to supply a meat grinder war like that.
They could pull a Tau and have rooms full of millennial nerds on drones.
it probably suits them.
but for actual war.... probably not. not enough safe spaces.
Gamers already sit for hours, drink gallons of caffine and don t shower for days at a time on weekend long gaming marathons.
They do drone duty easy lol
And serious point. Modern tech is such, any battle is a high tech ballet of support and assets. Strikes are careful, planned and multi layer supported.
It's very different to WW2, like do you expend your few sunburns early on, close, hold in reserve.
You only have so many of the high end assets, using them at right times becomes everything.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/07/20 23:40:10
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
As a (barely) millennial that spent 11 years in the military, I would say there are, but todays youth want a explanation for everything they do instead of just doing what their asked.
While it can be a good thing in certain situations, where input can help complete a task, or create a process which enhances efficiency, but in combat where you have to react quickly and listen to orders, it can get you killed.
1500pt
2500pt
2017/07/21 06:38:12
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
Supertony51 wrote: As a (barely) millennial that spent 11 years in the military, I would say there are, but todays youth want a explanation for everything they do instead of just doing what their asked.
While it can be a good thing in certain situations, where input can help complete a task, or create a process which enhances efficiency, but in combat where you have to react quickly and listen to orders, it can get you killed.
Generally its the being in combat part that gets you killed
2017/07/21 09:38:42
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
Supertony51 wrote: As a (barely) millennial that spent 11 years in the military, I would say there are, but todays youth want a explanation for everything they do instead of just doing what their asked.
While it can be a good thing in certain situations, where input can help complete a task, or create a process which enhances efficiency, but in combat where you have to react quickly and listen to orders, it can get you killed.
Generally its the being in combat part that gets you killed
Generally. But I've have been to several final role calls for troopers lost in training accidents, some of them being close friends of my wife and I.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2017/07/21 12:34:31
Subject: Re:Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
Actually, to answer the question, I think they would. After all, the main purpose of having huge conscriptions for a new world war is to quickly have numbers on your side.
Infantry is mainly the cannon fodder. So, quality...sure, it helps. But that's not really the point. If you have huge numbers on your side, eventually the other will run out. That's what happened with Germany in WWII against Soviet Union, after all.
And besides...those who plan are already qualified, are they not?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/21 12:42:14
2017/07/21 22:22:33
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
Gamers already sit for hours, drink gallons of caffine and don t shower for days at a time on weekend long gaming marathons.
They do drone duty easy lol
And serious point.
I read a few articles about drone pilots. There's nothing easy about it (once you get past the idea of "pew, pew, it's just like a video game"), Mostly it's a lot of questioning themselves, targets (did I just kill civilians?), and orders. Then a lot monotony with drinking and depression after "work".
2017/07/21 22:48:45
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
Supertony51 wrote: As a (barely) millennial that spent 11 years in the military, I would say there are, but todays youth want a explanation for everything they do instead of just doing what their asked.
While it can be a good thing in certain situations, where input can help complete a task, or create a process which enhances efficiency, but in combat where you have to react quickly and listen to orders, it can get you killed.
Generally its the being in combat part that gets you killed
It most certainly can.
You know what mitigates that risk? Being able to follow orders quickly and without question, spend time over analyzing a situation and you could end up with a few extra holes.
1500pt
2500pt
2017/07/22 01:32:14
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
Supertony51 wrote: but in combat where you have to react quickly and listen to orders, it can get you killed.
It was just before dawn
One miserable morning in black '44
When the forward commander
Was told to sit tight
When he asked that his men be withdrawn
And the generals gave thanks
As the other ranks
Held back the enemy tanks for a while
And the Anzio bridghead was held for the price
Of a few hundred ordinary lives
And kind old King George sent mother a note
When he heard that father was gone
It was, I recall, in the form of a scroll
With gold leaf and all
And I found it one day
In a drawer of old photographs, hidden away
And my eyes still grow damp
To remember
That his majesty signed
With his own rubber stamp
It was dark all around
There was frost in the ground
When the tigers broke free
And no one survived from the Royal Fusiliers, Company C
They were all left behind
Most of them dead
The rest of them dying
And that's how the high command
Took my daddy from me
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/22 01:33:44
The night was filled with dark and cold,
When Sergeant Talbert the story’s told,
Pulled out his poncho and headed out,
To check the lines dressed like a Kraut.
Upon a trooper our hero came,
Fast asleep; he called his name.
“Smith, oh Smith, get up, it’s time
To take your turn out on the line.”
Private Smith, so very weary,
Cracked an eye, all red and bleary,
Grabbed his rifle and did not tarry,
Hearing Floyd, but seeing Gerry.
“It’s me!” cried Tab. “Don’t do it!” and yet,
Smith charged toute de suite with bayonet.
He lunged, he thrust, both high and low,
And skeweth the boy from Kokomo.
And as they carried him away,
Our punctured hero was heard to say,
“When in this war you venture out,
best never do it dressed as a Kraut!”
2017/07/22 02:23:20
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
Supertony51 wrote: As a (barely) millennial that spent 11 years in the military, I would say there are, but todays youth want a explanation for everything they do instead of just doing what their asked.
While it can be a good thing in certain situations, where input can help complete a task, or create a process which enhances efficiency, but in combat where you have to react quickly and listen to orders, it can get you killed.
Generally its the being in combat part that gets you killed
It most certainly can.
You know what mitigates that risk? Being able to follow orders quickly and without question, spend time over analyzing a situation and you could end up with a few extra holes.
I seriously doubt that anybody that has go througt military training and is actually in a combat zone is gonna want "over explanation of everything".
"Johnson, cover us from the yihadists in that building!"
"But, Sargeant, what building? Really, in fact, why should I be the one to give cover and not Stevenson? I think my capabilities will be of better use elsewhere."
"Johnson cover us damm you!"
"Just let me write this on tumbrl, you are offending me Sargeant"
"JOHNSON!"
"STOP REPRESING ME!"
And they all died.
Spoiler:
Dramatization for comical intents. No intention of offending any actuall soldier thats has live something like this situation
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/22 02:24:41
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/07/22 02:32:19
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
Supertony51 wrote: As a (barely) millennial that spent 11 years in the military, I would say there are, but todays youth want a explanation for everything they do instead of just doing what their asked.
While it can be a good thing in certain situations, where input can help complete a task, or create a process which enhances efficiency, but in combat where you have to react quickly and listen to orders, it can get you killed.
Generally its the being in combat part that gets you killed
It most certainly can.
You know what mitigates that risk? Being able to follow orders quickly and without question, spend time over analyzing a situation and you could end up with a few extra holes.
I seriously doubt that anybody that has go througt military training and is actually in a combat zone is gonna want "over explanation of everything".
"Johnson, cover us from the yihadists in that building!"
"But, Sargeant, what building? Really, in fact, why should I be the one to give cover and not Stevenson? I think my capabilities will be of better use elsewhere."
"Johnson cover us damm you!"
"Just let me write this on tumbrl, you are offending me Sargeant"
"JOHNSON!"
"STOP REPRESING ME!"
And they all died.
Spoiler:
Dramatization for comical intents. No intention of offending any actuall soldier thats has live something like this situation
Not that quite dramatic, but youd be surprised.
See my profile pic? Im speaking from personal experience.
1500pt
2500pt
2017/07/22 02:34:12
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/07/22 03:13:26
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
CptJake wrote: Well, the topic is about a draft, where folks don't get the choice...
But a draft is never going to happen. So in the real world we're talking about a military where people do get the choice, which is far more interesting than the OP's thinly-veiled millennial bashing.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2017/07/22 04:18:50
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
CptJake wrote: Well, the topic is about a draft, where folks don't get the choice...
But a draft is never going to happen. So in the real world we're talking about a military where people do get the choice, which is far more interesting than the OP's thinly-veiled millennial bashing.
And in that world, the real world, EVERY single volunteer who has enlisted recently is a millennial who knows we are at war.
My original point stands. These kids learn a bit differently, but there are plenty of tough ones out there.
For feths sake, Son1, a millennial was an enlisted infantryman in time of war. Son2 is a millennial and an infantry platoon leader right now, and every trooper in his platoon is a volunteer millennial. .
Yes, millennials do step up.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/22 04:22:23
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2017/07/22 04:35:12
Subject: Re:Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
Thinking about this more, I can not genuinely help but wonder if ANY generation or set of generations would be prepared to handle something to the level of magnitude of something like WW3, as we would expect it to play out, were it to happen.
The next world war is not exactly going to be fought at the scale of boats full of little men in cloth uniforms charging at beachheads after all.
Supertony51 wrote: As a (barely) millennial that spent 11 years in the military, I would say there are, but todays youth want a explanation for everything they do instead of just doing what their asked.
While it can be a good thing in certain situations, where input can help complete a task, or create a process which enhances efficiency, but in combat where you have to react quickly and listen to orders, it can get you killed.
Generally its the being in combat part that gets you killed
It most certainly can.
You know what mitigates that risk? Being able to follow orders quickly and without question, spend time over analyzing a situation and you could end up with a few extra holes.
Sorry but what you assert is situational rather than universal, and has been proven time and time again in history that young men have been ordered to their deaths..
I think you are misquoting a variation of the belief that hesitation gets you killed and conflating it with CoC...
And what makes this most irrelevant to this discussion is that the military structure generally weeds out people who cannot follow orders, and tends to keep them away from front line action, lest they get their comrades killed..
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/22 07:52:41
2017/07/22 14:46:19
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
Supertony51 wrote: As a (barely) millennial that spent 11 years in the military, I would say there are, but todays youth want a explanation for everything they do instead of just doing what their asked.
While it can be a good thing in certain situations, where input can help complete a task, or create a process which enhances efficiency, but in combat where you have to react quickly and listen to orders, it can get you killed.
Generally its the being in combat part that gets you killed
It most certainly can.
You know what mitigates that risk? Being able to follow orders quickly and without question, spend time over analyzing a situation and you could end up with a few extra holes.
Sorry but what you assert is situational rather than universal, and has been proven time and time again in history that young men have been ordered to their deaths..
I think you are misquoting a variation of the belief that hesitation gets you killed and conflating it with CoC...
And what makes this most irrelevant to this discussion is that the military structure generally weeds out people who cannot follow orders, and tends to keep them away from front line action, lest they get their comrades killed..
I'm speaking about situations at a tactical level, not so much strategic. Long story short, millennial want reasoning on why every decision is made.
This can be a good thing on a strategic level, not so much on a tactical level. Hell im only speaking from my own observations, the majority of millennial soldiers are just fine, I just notice a trend in the line of thinking that some seem to use, that all decisions must be explained.
1500pt
2500pt
2017/07/22 14:50:10
Subject: Could today's millennials handle a draft if WW3 were to happen?
Supertony51 wrote: As a (barely) millennial that spent 11 years in the military, I would say there are, but todays youth want a explanation for everything they do instead of just doing what their asked.
While it can be a good thing in certain situations, where input can help complete a task, or create a process which enhances efficiency, but in combat where you have to react quickly and listen to orders, it can get you killed.
Generally its the being in combat part that gets you killed
It most certainly can.
You know what mitigates that risk? Being able to follow orders quickly and without question, spend time over analyzing a situation and you could end up with a few extra holes.
Sorry but what you assert is situational rather than universal, and has been proven time and time again in history that young men have been ordered to their deaths..
I think you are misquoting a variation of the belief that hesitation gets you killed and conflating it with CoC...
And what makes this most irrelevant to this discussion is that the military structure generally weeds out people who cannot follow orders, and tends to keep them away from front line action, lest they get their comrades killed..
I'm speaking about situations at a tactical level, not so much strategic. Long story short, millennial want reasoning on why every decision is made.
This can be a good thing on a strategic level, not so much on a tactical level. Hell im only speaking from my own observations, the majority of millennial soldiers are just fine, I just notice a trend in the line of thinking that some seem to use, that all decisions must be explained.
This isn't a case of it being strictly "millenials".
Lots of people want reasoning on why every decision is made. You might not notice it from "non-millenial soldiers" because oh, I don't know...they've been in the service longer?