Las Vegas Open 2018

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**quickfuze**

DJ3 wrote:
You drama fiends sure do provide a lot of entertainment for the people who actually were at the event and involved in the goings-on at the final tables, returning home to see you all losing your minds about stuff you have no context for.

"the rot at the event"

"cheating"

"no moral code"

"ruined it for everyone"

What a bunch of absolutely hilarious garbage. Keep up the good work, dakka.

Thanks for adding nothing to the discussion... Away with you.

**MasterSlowPoke**

The biggest issue with chess clocks is that there's a lot of decision making and rolling performed by both players on each player turn. You'd have to swap the clock a hundred times or so per game. KoW and Warmahordes only have only player act per turn, which lets them use clocks.

**DJ3**

CaptKaruthors wrote:
I don't think anyone did any favors to promote the hobby and game as a whole in the final rounds. To think otherwise is intellectually dishonest. Meh.

It's nice of you to bypass moving the goalposts and instead just create your own out of thin air entirely.

Personally, I had no idea that we pay money to attend an event and once we're here are overtaken by the necessity to promote the hobby on behalf of FLG or GW. Must have been in the fine print or something.

And it's certainly not like a hobby-focused stream run by GW themselves was occurring literally five feet away from the tournament stream.

In fact, between rounds players from the Top 8 would run over to the hobby stream and make fun of them for being bad at the game and kill all their models with Dark Reapers and I personally saw them punch at least one baby. They really should be stopped at all costs, and internet-based outrage is the correct vehicle to accomplish this. Onward!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

quickfuze wrote:
Thanks for adding nothing to the discussion... Away with you.

Uninvolved third parties on dakka stumbling over each other to express higher and higher levels of false outrage on behalf of people they've never met is not a "discussion." It's an echo chamber witch hunt which leads nowhere because none of the people partaking in it have any idea what they're talking about or anything of consequence to add, besides "raaa mean nerd bad, hate mean nerd, must ban"

But my flight is delayed so it's either poke you people with a stick and point out the pointlessness of the whole endeavor, or lose money on these airport slot machines.

**CaptKaruthors**

It's nice of you to bypass moving the goalposts and instead just create your own out of thin air entirely.

Personally, I had no idea that we pay money to attend an event and once we're here are overtaken by the necessity to promote the hobby on behalf of FLG or GW. Must have been in the fine print or something.

And it's certainly not like a hobby-focused stream run by GW themselves was occurring literally five feet away from the tournament stream.

In fact, between rounds players from the Top 8 would run over to the hobby stream and make fun of them for being bad at the game and kill all their models with Dark Reapers and I personally saw them punch at least one baby. They really should be stopped at all costs, and internet-based outrage is the correct vehicle to accomplish this. Onward!

That's not an argument. Yes, on a public stream you sort of are brand ambassadors whether you think you are or not. Go back and watch the streams and tell me that those were games that represent the essence of what 40k is or means.

Uninvolved third parties on dakka stumbling over each other to express higher and higher levels of false outrage on behalf of people they've never met is not a "discussion." It's an echo chamber witch hunt which leads nowhere because none of the people partaking in it have any idea what they're talking about or anything of consequence to add, besides "raaa mean nerd bad, hate mean nerd, must ban"

But my flight is delayed so it's either poke you people with a stick and point out the pointlessness of the whole endeavor, or lose money on these airport slot machines.

Again, not an argument. I also don't seem to remember stumbling over anything. I thought my points were quite clear. These games were publicly broadcast. People have every right to criticize them. If you don't like that, too bad.

**perrin23860**

DJ3 wrote:
CaptKaruthors wrote:
I don't think anyone did any favors to promote the hobby and game as a whole in the final rounds. To think otherwise is intellectually dishonest. Meh.

It's nice of you to bypass moving the goalposts and instead just create your own out of thin air entirely.

Personally, I had no idea that we pay money to attend an event and once we're here are overtaken by the necessity to promote the hobby on behalf of FLG or GW. Must have been in the fine print or something.

And it's certainly not like a hobby-focused stream run by GW themselves was occurring literally five feet away from the tournament stream.

In fact, between rounds players from the Top 8 would run over to the hobby stream and make fun of them for being bad at the game and kill all their models with Dark Reapers and I personally saw them punch at least one baby. They really should be stopped at all costs, and internet-based outrage is the correct vehicle to accomplish this. Onward!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

quickfuze wrote:
Thanks for adding nothing to the discussion... Away with you.

Uninvolved third parties on dakka stumbling over each other to express higher and higher levels of false outrage on behalf of people they've never met is not a "discussion." It's an echo chamber witch hunt which leads nowhere because none of the people partaking in it have any idea what they're talking about or anything of consequence to add, besides "raaa mean nerd bad, hate mean nerd, must ban"

But my flight is delayed so it's either poke you people with a stick and point out the pointlessness of the whole endeavor, or lose money on these airport slot machines.

Having watched multiple games both live and recorded, I can say with certainty that I saw what I needed to understand clearly that both slowplaying and extremely poor sportsmanship was on display front and center, from multiple people. Don't need to be there to see that clear as day. Also, I've played against most of these guys, know the tourney scene better than most, and this is nothing new. To deny this, or claim one cannot make an informed decision and imply we are all internet rage nerds does yourself a disservice. Most of the people on here care far more about the direction of the hobby and the quality of the tournament scene than you give them credit for.

**Red Corsair**

Guys ignore him, if our opinions are worthless and mean so little to him then why is he arguing? THAT in of itself is an acknowledgement that we hit a nerve. Also, acting like these events are in a vacuum and don't effect other venues is incredibly dishonest. I mean, these guys were competeing to be top of the ITC circuit....its a fething circuit...

Oh and BTW, there are quite a few outsiders that are introduced to the hobby by the twitch stream and when they stumble upon it to see this type of crap it really does paint the hobby in a poor light. I said it before and I'll say it again, theres a reason GW doesn't stream the top bracket and thats because it doesn't represent the brand well. Meanwhile all the matches they hand picked were gorgeous armies played by good sports.

**DJ3**

I'm sure Alex (who, by the way, was the happiest man in the entire building Sunday night) is very touched by your extreme concern, everyone.

Keep fighting the good fight--even there isn't a fight and you're actually just blindly swinging at straw men who you're very certain are quite evil.

**Primark G**

I think if Tony should read all this vitriol directed at him he might just quit the hobby.

**Ordana**

Primark G wrote:
I think if Tony should read all this vitriol directed at him he might just quit the hobby.

Nothing of value would be lost.
But he won't care. If he did he wouldn't have pulled the dick move on Alex to begin with.

**Primark G**

He may come to care. His rep is lower than dirt now.

**Red Corsair**

DJ3 wrote:
I'm sure Alex (who, by the way, was the happiest man in the entire building Sunday night) is very touched by your extreme concern, everyone.

Keep fighting the good fight--even there isn't a fight and you're actually just blindly swinging at straw men who you're very certain are quite evil.

Tony is that you?

**wana10**

@DJ3
The perception of 40k tournaments is tainted by what's shown. The same way the new Overwatch league is being checked over with a microscope, or the way sports teams develop reputations based on what their players do mid game, the competitive 40k scene will be judged by what the public sees, and what we were shown was bad sportsmanship and nothing to be proud of.

**Primark G**

Tony are you DJ3?

**Galas**

Lets be honest here. No need to crucify that guy. Yeah he was a WAAC, an what he did is totally legitimate to critizie, but theres greater crimes one can commit, lets not forgett that we are talking about a hobby. Is not like he should be shunned down from the hobby or persecuted.
The fault here is that the judges didn't did anything. Theres always gonna be cheaters, or people with bad sportmanship, etc... but if the judges act, then nobody will say anything. The system worked! But this wasn't the case.

**Cream Tea**

I'm honestly quite surprised to see this kind of outrage over something that is neither against the rules or against the law. I've played a couple of card games at a reasonably high level, and this would (as far as the info I've read is correct) fall under "rule sharking", it's generally frowned upon, sure, but you can avoid being hit by it by playing by the rules. The deep striking player forgot a rule, and he probably knew that that carries risks. In his place, I would've accepted that by deep striking I entered the end of my movement phase. In his opponent's place, however, I would not have called the phase ended but allowed my opponent to take back his deep strikers until after he'd moved. That's the nice thing to do, but I don't expect all my opponents at a tournament to be nice.

**Galas**

Cream Tea wrote:
I'm honestly quite surprised to see this kind of outrage over something that is neither against the rules or against the law. I've played a couple of card games at a reasonably high level, and this would (as far as the info I've read is correct) fall under "rule sharking", it's generally frowned upon, sure, but you can avoid being hit by it by playing by the rules. The deep striking player forgot a rule, and he probably knew that that carries risks. In his place, I would've accepted that by deep striking I entered the end of my movement phase. In his opponent's place, however, I would not have called the phase ended but allowed my opponent to take back his deep strikers until after he'd moved. That's the nice thing to do, but I don't expect all my opponents at a tournament to be nice.

Actually, if the thing have been like that, I don't think anybody would have said anything. Yeah, a little "gotcha!" but inside the reasonable. The difference here is that Tony was OBVIOUSLY slow playing in purpose, and Alex was trying to recover some time for his turn and speed things up. So Tony was responsible for Alex mistake, and then he didn't allowed him to correct it. Thats why people did get mad at him.

The fact that in the last game he tried to arguee when his rival did the same thing to him just shows his hipocrisy.

**Primark G**

Who wants to win a game like that? I mean it shows he probably got as far as he did by cheating a lot.

**Cream Tea**

Galas wrote:
Actually, if the thing have been like that, I don't think anybody would have said anything. Yeah, a little "gotcha!" but inside the reasonable. The difference here is that Tony was OBVIOUSLY slow playing in purpose, and Alex was trying to recover some time for his turn and speed things up. So Tony was responsible for Alex mistake, and then he didn't allowed him to correct it. Thats why people did get mad at him.

The fact that in the last game he tried to arguee when his rival did the same thing to him just shows his hipocrisy.

Right, I missed some of that information. Slow play is definitely not OK, though I tend to be cautious in passing judgment. If I haven't seen it myself (and I haven't) I won't say that someone definitely slow played. If he did, that's an issue.

Also, if he complained about getting called out himself in an analogous situation, that's hypocritical, but not really worth the amount of outrage I've seen here. More like a sigh, a slight frown and a head shake.

What I'd seen talked about the most was the scenario I commented on in my post, I'd missed some details because there are a lot of posts, and the reaction I saw didn't seem proportional to what was being described. I still don't think it is, though, slow play is generally not as bad in my mind as outright cheating, and I've seen my fair share of that (mostly in other games).

Thank you for the additional information and level-headed tone.

**Ordana**

Cream Tea wrote:
I'm honestly quite surprised to see this kind of outrage over something that is neither against the rules or against the law. I've played a couple of card games at a reasonably high level, and this would (as far as the info I've read is correct) fall under "rule sharking", it's generally frowned upon, sure, but you can avoid being hit by it by playing by the rules. The deep striking player forgot a rule, and he probably knew that that carries risks. In his place, I would've accepted that by deep striking I entered the end of my movement phase. In his opponent's place, however, I would not have called the phase ended but allowed my opponent to take back his deep strikers until after he'd moved. That's the nice thing to do, but I don't expect all my opponents at a tournament to be nice.

Sure, and that is exactly what Alex did when it happened. He recognized that Tony was technically correct and accepted it. That doesn't stop it from being an utter dick move.

And yet when Nick pulled the same move on Tony the next game Tony threw a fit and repeatedly complained.

**Galas**

Cream Tea wrote:
Galas wrote:
Actually, if the thing have been like that, I don't think anybody would have said anything. Yeah, a little "gotcha!" but inside the reasonable. The difference here is that Tony was OBVIOUSLY slow playing in purpose, and Alex was trying to recover some time for his turn and speed things up. So Tony was responsible for Alex mistake, and then he didn't allowed him to correct it. Thats why people did get mad at him.

The fact that in the last game he tried to arguee when his rival did the same thing to him just shows his hipocrisy.

Right, I missed some of that information. Slow play is definitely not OK, though I tend to be cautious in passing judgment. If I haven't seen it myself (and I haven't) I won't say that someone definitely slow played. If he did, that's an issue.

Also, if he complained about getting called out himself in an analogous situation, that's hypocritical, but not really worth the amount of outrage I've seen here. More like a sigh, a slight frown and a head shake.

What I'd seen talked about the most was the scenario I commented on in my post, I'd missed some details because there are a lot of posts, and the reaction I saw didn't seem proportional to what was being described. I still don't think it is, though, slow play is generally not as bad in my mind as outright cheating, and I've seen my fair share of that (mostly in other games).

Thank you for the additional information and level-headed tone.

I agree with you. What he did was bad, of course, and theres some debate to had about slow playing in tournaments, tournamens where the top tables only reach turn 2 max, etc... something that is inaceptable. But theres no need to crucify the guy, he's just a TFG between many others, I'm sure in general outside the game, and even playing in non-tournament games, hes a very nice guy. But he did a poor showing here.

**Primark G**

Also Tony and Alex had discussed whether they would play pure RAW or more open to which both agreed to the latter.

**Benlisted**

Primark G wrote:
Also Tony and Alex had discussed whether they would play pure RAW or more open to which both agreed to the latter.

Untrue, Alex had stated that "he didn't wanna play that type of game" but Tony said nothing at all in response. Certainly not the agreement people were making it out to be.

**ph34r**

I like the part where one of the top lists' mortars weren't even glued to their bases?

What?

**Cream Tea**

Primark G wrote:
Also Tony and Alex had discussed whether they would play pure RAW or more open to which both agreed to the latter.

The problem I see with that (apart from only having heard about it and not having the exact words they said) is that it can mean many things to different people. What's "playing less strictly" to one may be cheating to another, which is why I think the actual rules as interpreted by the judges should be the final arbiter in a tournament like this, regardless of what players have agreed on.

In short, while there's evidence of some unpolished behaviour here, I don't think the level of vitriol is proportionate. At all.

It's also first and foremost a matter between the two players involved, the tournament organisers, and any judges present. As a mere forumite half a world away, I'm not in a position to pass judgment on this.

EDIT:

Benlisted wrote:
Primark G wrote:
Also Tony and Alex had discussed whether they would play pure RAW or more open to which both agreed to the latter.

Untrue, Alex had stated that "he didn't wanna play that type of game" but Tony said nothing at all in response. Certainly not the agreement people were making it out to be.

And this is why I don't accept everything said about this at face value. There are different stories of what really happened.

**Primark G**

If you watch the game that is what they said.

**Cream Tea**

Primark G wrote:
If you watch the game that is what they said.

Do you have a link? Is it behind a paywall? I'm not really into tournaments, but this got me a bit curious.

**Primark G**

The link to game is in this thread.

**schadenfreude**

PiñaColada wrote:
schadenfreude wrote:
I came in 24th place with my IG 5W 1L but 2 other IG players had higher scores than me. The main reason I came in 3rd for IG is that they beat me in score because I did not play fast enough. I could blame it on my opponents instead because the game would just go a lot faster if they had the common decency to fail all of their armor saves and die, but the fact is that I am more responsible than they are for not going to turn 6 in my 2 wins that ended before turn 6. Because I was not fast enough and 2 games I was playing ended early I easily lost out on a potential 28 points between the 2 games, and without time limits I probably would have scored 20 to 25 of those points. Nothing my opponents did was malicious (except passing armor saves) and I sure as hell wasn't intentionally shooting myself in the foot during games that I was winning.

The big factors are this:
#1) I brought a lot of infantry with a lot of low AP shooting because deep down on some subconscious level I must really hate myself.
#2) I slipped into 3rd gear on occasion when I needed to be in 5th
#3) I should have had more practice games in the last 2 months

Ok maybe I did shoot myself in the foot a bit by bringing a massive number of guardsmen but I like my guardsmen and had a great time playing them. My point is incomplete games happen, and the current ITC system heavily rewards players who finish turn 6. The 2 other IG players who scored better than me earned their points and higher rankings. Multiple games that end before turn 6 are highly likely to knock someone out of the top 8 and are extremely likely to knock someone out of 1st place for their faction. Overall I think the system works. Over 2,800 games were played in the championships by about 470 players and there is only a handful of games that people are talking about. We have a good community with a few bad apples, and I don't see any easy solutions for how to deal with them.

Well, first off I gotta say congratulations! That's a very solid showing. Regarding time it's tricky, I understand it might feel bad knowing you lost out on points but at the same time a guard army should really have some guard imo. How many guard did you bring?

This many

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:
I like the part where one of the top lists' mortars weren't even glued to their bases?

What?

If I got a victory point for every time one of my guardsmen snapped off a mortar base or a weapon got snapped off in the tournament I might have made top 8.

**Orktavius**

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/223317017

Game starts at around 3 hours 36 minutes in, the intention 'conversation' happens around 3 hours 56 minutes though Tony's agreement is unclear.

**Benlisted**

Primark G wrote:
If you watch the game that is what they said.

I was watching the game live, and was there when someone went back in the VOD and found the “agreement”, and rewatched it myself. There was no agreement. There was some discussion about Tony setting up his models a certain number of inches away, which he let Alex know about, and Alex said something like “oh as long as you’ve said how far away they are it’s cool, we know the intent - I don’t wanna play /that/ kind of game yknow?” To which Tony’s only response was a grunt/mmhmm - far from agreement that they were gonna play the game in that way, just the response to someone when you’re busy to keep the conversation flowing.

From memory, it was at 3:58:00 or so in the semi finals VOD if people want to check.

But yeah this is a good example lf how things get distorted and witch-hunts start. There are a good number of things to pull Tony up on, the 1hr first turn, odd rules Qs and obviously the gotcha (which was indeed within the rules but very much not at all in the spirit of the game)but this is not one of them.