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That response is horrible. Blame the espectators and not the TFG that is slow playing in purpose. Unvelievable.

 ChainswordHeretic wrote:

Didn't we have a long thread after Nova about a top table player not bringing his codex/index with him and then found to be playing the rules wrong? Nothing happened that time either I think, so until a TO does harden up then the players looking to win will play as loose as they can get away with.

We did and the organizers response is below.

They have been. People pay far too much attention to the top table, and far too much attention to people making honest mistakes in events where their primary reason for being there is *not* "winning the tournament." I'm looking down my nose a bit because peanut gallery snipers who carp for multiple pages of thread on minor rules gaffes by the smallest % of players (the "top" guys) at massive events are a persistent problem in the hobby which often keeps interested passers-by from trying out what amounts to a giant gaming party for charity all weekend long. I *definitely* do not think all that highly of those who make too big a deal of what happens on the top tables. IDK what else to tell you. It is DEFINITELY hand wavey on my part; this issue is so comparatively irrelevant that I'm not exactly pleased with how much conversational space it's taken up. "I'm gonna do this thing." You're doing it wrong. "Oh, ok, I'll stop."

Just so you know, the guys at the top tables aren't actually trying to win these tournaments, they are just there for giggles and should be excused from this behavior.

Again, most frustrating part of large events is that there is a golden boys section who are friends with the TOs that will NEVER be held accountable. It's not just LVO, you see it at NOVA and Adepticon as well.

A one year ban would show the TFGs to straighten up real fast.

 Primark G wrote:
A one year ban would show the TFGs to straighten up real fast.

Nah, the TFG are us, the internet crown. And even admiting that internet tends to hyperbole, its obvious that Tony was doing things he shouldn't do. That doesn't mean we should crucify him, of course. But theres should be consequences. Not just "Nah he was good, internet is just full of trolls"

I used to play competitive chess. Clock are generally a good thing and I believe they would translate over well to 40k.

It feels like a lot of people are concerned about giving someone an advantage relative to the size of their army. This should not be a real concern - while it make take more time to move / roll for a large unit, there's other benefits that come with clock management that I think most people would like.

Having a limited amount of time forces you to be creative with your moves. You have constraints, you need to execute in a certain amount of time. As long as you know the rules for how your pieces / units operate, you will have a plan ahead of time for how they will be used. You will be able to see what you are doing with each unit before you move it, and you will be able to react appropriately when your opponent does something in response.

TBH, I always do a lot better when there's a clock in Chess then when there's not. Constraints help me as a player and I think we would see a better caliber of player were this introduced to every tournament. The thing that annoys me in games is all the internal debate about what someone should / should not do in the middle of their turn. I don't play 40k that way, I generally come into a turn knowing what I am going to do except for some small decisions that depend on a few rolls. More people would probably play this way if there were clocks on the board.

 ChainswordHeretic wrote:

Didn't we have a long thread after Nova about a top table player not bringing his codex/index with him and then found to be playing the rules wrong? Nothing happened that time either I think, so until a TO does harden up then the players looking to win will play as loose as they can get away with.

We did and the organizers response is below.

They have been. People pay far too much attention to the top table, and far too much attention to people making honest mistakes in events where their primary reason for being there is *not* "winning the tournament." I'm looking down my nose a bit because peanut gallery snipers who carp for multiple pages of thread on minor rules gaffes by the smallest % of players (the "top" guys) at massive events are a persistent problem in the hobby which often keeps interested passers-by from trying out what amounts to a giant gaming party for charity all weekend long. I *definitely* do not think all that highly of those who make too big a deal of what happens on the top tables. IDK what else to tell you. It is DEFINITELY hand wavey on my part; this issue is so comparatively irrelevant that I'm not exactly pleased with how much conversational space it's taken up. "I'm gonna do this thing." You're doing it wrong. "Oh, ok, I'll stop."

Just so you know, the guys at the top tables aren't actually trying to win these tournaments, they are just there for giggles and should be excused from this behavior.

Thats Mike Brandt who ironically made top 8 at the LVO and is the guy with the guard/blood Angel list that has a key on it explaining all the proxies in his army... He is the guy with unglued mortars though in his defense I guess it was for ease of travel or something. Only thing that seemed odd to me was he had Ashen circle models as Sanguinary guard, but I didn't see the models so as long as they were armed right who cares I guess.

That response got even worse in the discussion if I remember back to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
A one year ban would show the TFGs to straighten up real fast.

Nah, the TFG are us, the internet crown. And even admiting that internet tends to hyperbole, its obvious that Tony was doing things he shouldn't do. That doesn't mean we should crucify him, of course. But theres should be consequences. Not just "Nah he was good, internet is just full of trolls"

It honestly isn't all his fault. Had he been taken aside and talked down by a judge before it went too far this would have all been avoided. It's strange that there was no judge at the semi final table, or if there was he didn't jump in and suggest he let Alex finish his moves. I think in the heat of the moment Tony wanted to get to the end and really wasn't thinking about his poor actions.

You can’t excuse what he did with a simple wave of the hand - it was flat out wrong. Hopefully there will be some consequences.

 Primark G wrote:
You can’t excuse what he did with a simple wave of the hand - it was flat out wrong. Hopefully there will be some consequences.

I think your missing the point, his reputation is obviously in tatters at the moment. I don't know about you but that has to suck being the target of the internets scorn and having to be teased at the local store. I mean you can ban him, but he may not even want to play for a while. I mean, I'd rather see this as an opportunity to make the events more fair and to crack down on fast and loose play then to just burn a guy again and again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:


There is a much easier way to make slow play a thing of the past. ITC LVO packet said game length was set for 6 turns and no random game length. So the solution is simple, with the exception of a tabling you only score a percentage of the points earned in your game in relation to which game turn you ended on. In other words if I score 24 points when time is called but I only made it to turn 2 then the max they can earn is 8 points. Play 1/3 of a game, earn 1/3 of the battle points.

Just bringing this idea back up since it was lost at the bottom of last page.

The idea is to let people know that behavior is not accepted. Going by your logic it’ll continue to happen and here you’ll be posting again complaining yet again.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


There is a much easier way to make slow play a thing of the past. ITC LVO packet said game length was set for 6 turns and no random game length. So the solution is simple, with the exception of a tabling you only score a percentage of the points earned in your game in relation to which game turn you ended on. In other words if I score 24 points when time is called but I only made it to turn 2 then the max they can earn is 8 points. Play 1/3 of a game, earn 1/3 of the battle points.

Just bringing this idea back up since it was lost at the bottom of last page.

Then the one that slow plays is not the guy that wants to win, but the one that is losing, in a "I will lose but at least I can screw your win"

 Galas wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


There is a much easier way to make slow play a thing of the past. ITC LVO packet said game length was set for 6 turns and no random game length. So the solution is simple, with the exception of a tabling you only score a percentage of the points earned in your game in relation to which game turn you ended on. In other words if I score 24 points when time is called but I only made it to turn 2 then the max they can earn is 8 points. Play 1/3 of a game, earn 1/3 of the battle points.

Just bringing this idea back up since it was lost at the bottom of last page.

Then the one that slow plays is not the guy that wants to win, but the one that is losing, in a "I will lose but at least I can screw your win"

To which I will say again, if your assuming the worst in people across the event then why bother hosting one. There is never going to be an end all be all one fix all. Currently there is an incentive to slow play as it gets you the win. My idea gives you an incentive to finish the game. You pick which scenario between those two is preferable?

Again this all goes back to that sportsmanship card I'd also like to see return. Makes no sense to hear so many people refuting solutions by appealing to players worst intentions and then not having sportsmanship.



So just to recap, we can't enforce time using clocks because all competitive gamers are douchebags, we also can't tie points to turns finshed because top players are dirt bags. We also cannot have soft scoring because the elite gamers are jerks...

Tell me again why we should care so much if the top tables are taking each other out using cheap tricks? At least most of the idea put forth encourage the majority of the field of players at the event to have complete games with timely turns. I'd settle for that as a win. BTW I don't actually think most competitive gamers are actually this awful so it's even fewer people we are talking about.

Sportsmanship can be gamed like anything else - it never worked. Ultimately it is allowing bitter losers to ding opponents and some will for sure.

it doesn't matter what sistem one tries to impose. As long as judges don't jump on this kind of behaviour and put a stop to it, nothing will work.

I'm really suprised how much virtol chess clocks get. Several major game systems use them to good effect. The mere existence of one helps bring up the professionalism of the game, making a statement about what is expected in regards to clean play.

I'm glad the 3-4 consistent posters circlejerking each other's rage-ons in this thread have now gotten to the point of trying to crucify Mike Brandt, legitimately one of the nicest people I've ever met, who has raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for charity via his 40k tournament.

You people are doing important work here, keep digging!

Disagreeing with what someone sais is crucifying him?

I don't think Chess clock can stop TFG being TFG, nothing can.

I do think they can help provide a more consistent tournament experiance/ cohesive system by forcing a more equal distribution of time wich is naturally limited by event duration.

 buddha wrote:

 ChainswordHeretic wrote:

Didn't we have a long thread after Nova about a top table player not bringing his codex/index with him and then found to be playing the rules wrong? Nothing happened that time either I think, so until a TO does harden up then the players looking to win will play as loose as they can get away with.

We did and the organizers response is below.

They have been. People pay far too much attention to the top table, and far too much attention to people making honest mistakes in events where their primary reason for being there is *not* "winning the tournament." I'm looking down my nose a bit because peanut gallery snipers who carp for multiple pages of thread on minor rules gaffes by the smallest % of players (the "top" guys) at massive events are a persistent problem in the hobby which often keeps interested passers-by from trying out what amounts to a giant gaming party for charity all weekend long. I *definitely* do not think all that highly of those who make too big a deal of what happens on the top tables. IDK what else to tell you. It is DEFINITELY hand wavey on my part; this issue is so comparatively irrelevant that I'm not exactly pleased with how much conversational space it's taken up. "I'm gonna do this thing." You're doing it wrong. "Oh, ok, I'll stop."

Just so you know, the guys at the top tables aren't actually trying to win these tournaments, they are just there for giggles and should be excused from this behavior.

Again, most frustrating part of large events is that there is a golden boys section who are friends with the TOs that will NEVER be held accountable. It's not just LVO, you see it at NOVA and Adepticon as well.

Pretty much this. The charity come's from the regular hobby chumps showing up and spending $1k for Bro-Hammer, food and room. Nothing is going to change. There aren't repercussions for cheating or "gaming" the system. When I suggested some could be added to the event packet in order to manage expectations. I was told there isn't any cheating to add. I was interested because I was considering playing the circuit. I was cured of that by the concern or lack there of, from the TOs irt the reoccurring issues.

Also, about the "no reference" at the top table NOVA thing and a stratagem being played wrong. I brought that up. I was asked, "were you there?", "Don't worry about it".

Have fun with that folks.

 Galas wrote:
Disagreeing with what someone sais is crucifying him?

I didn't say anything in this thread to disagree with in the first place.

I believe he was referring to someone inferring I made finals due to some form of collusion. It spanked of extremely shallow intellect, so I didn't feel crucified, however.

LVO was fun and tough. Also my army is really pretty, I think, and yeah I kept the mortars off for travel, but they were with me and on the bases so I don't know what that matters. I'm sad someone didn't like them, as they were really pretty and forgeworld solar auxilia models are cool.

Also, the golden boys club comment is dumb. It's only doing yourself a disservice thinking it. Don't be bad.

I bet your army looks really nice. Congrats on making the top 8 - that is a big deal!

MVBrandt wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Disagreeing with what someone sais is crucifying him?

I didn't say anything in this thread to disagree with in the first place.

I believe he was referring to someone inferring I made finals due to some form of collusion. It spanked of extremely shallow intellect, so I didn't feel crucified, however.

LVO was fun and tough. Also my army is really pretty, I think, and yeah I kept the mortars off for travel, but they were with me and on the bases so I don't know what that matters. I'm sad someone didn't like them, as they were really pretty and forgeworld solar auxilia models are cool.

Also, the golden boys club comment is dumb. It's only doing yourself a disservice thinking it. Don't be bad.

With respect, I do think it occurs nor do I characterize it as hyperbole. Indeed, as a top ranked player yourself, have you ever seen a TO disqualify or penalize yourself or other notable names for slow play, etc? The response posted from the NOVA organizer is again showing that there seems to be a disconnected bubble around the proverbial big names in the game TOs, and the rest of the mid to low field at events.

 buddha wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Disagreeing with what someone sais is crucifying him?

I didn't say anything in this thread to disagree with in the first place.

I believe he was referring to someone inferring I made finals due to some form of collusion. It spanked of extremely shallow intellect, so I didn't feel crucified, however.

LVO was fun and tough. Also my army is really pretty, I think, and yeah I kept the mortars off for travel, but they were with me and on the bases so I don't know what that matters. I'm sad someone didn't like them, as they were really pretty and forgeworld solar auxilia models are cool.

Also, the golden boys club comment is dumb. It's only doing yourself a disservice thinking it. Don't be bad.

With respect, I do think it occurs nor do I characterize it as hyperbole. Indeed, as a top ranked player yourself, have you ever seen a TO disqualify or penalize yourself or other notable names for slow play, etc? The response posted from the NOVA organizer is again showing that there seems to be a disconnected bubble around the proverbial big names in the game TOs, and the rest of the mid to low field at events.

Your premise is self-serving and self-fulfilling. I've never disqualified *anyone* for "slow play, etc." Nor is it likely to happen or easy to do.

You could as easily claim a bubble of TOs and bottom players.

There is no bubble of TOs and supposed top players. You know not of what you speak. And not speaking with any evidence or deep thought isn't respectful. It's callous, careless, and rude. And you harm the hobby for it.

You are much too nice MVB.

 buddha wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Disagreeing with what someone sais is crucifying him?

I didn't say anything in this thread to disagree with in the first place.

I believe he was referring to someone inferring I made finals due to some form of collusion. It spanked of extremely shallow intellect, so I didn't feel crucified, however.

LVO was fun and tough. Also my army is really pretty, I think, and yeah I kept the mortars off for travel, but they were with me and on the bases so I don't know what that matters. I'm sad someone didn't like them, as they were really pretty and forgeworld solar auxilia models are cool.

Also, the golden boys club comment is dumb. It's only doing yourself a disservice thinking it. Don't be bad.

With respect, I do think it occurs nor do I characterize it as hyperbole. Indeed, as a top ranked player yourself, have you ever seen a TO disqualify or penalize yourself or other notable names for slow play, etc? The response posted from the NOVA organizer is again showing that there seems to be a disconnected bubble around the proverbial big names in the game TOs, and the rest of the mid to low field at events.

FYI. He is the NOVA organizer. Also, I certainly don't think MVB made the top 8 due to some kind of collusion. This is a silly notion IMO. Its actually kind of cool that the TOs play each others events. Get the view from the commoners angle from time to time.

MVBrandt wrote:

 buddha wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Disagreeing with what someone sais is crucifying him?

I didn't say anything in this thread to disagree with in the first place.

I believe he was referring to someone inferring I made finals due to some form of collusion. It spanked of extremely shallow intellect, so I didn't feel crucified, however.

LVO was fun and tough. Also my army is really pretty, I think, and yeah I kept the mortars off for travel, but they were with me and on the bases so I don't know what that matters. I'm sad someone didn't like them, as they were really pretty and forgeworld solar auxilia models are cool.

Also, the golden boys club comment is dumb. It's only doing yourself a disservice thinking it. Don't be bad.

With respect, I do think it occurs nor do I characterize it as hyperbole. Indeed, as a top ranked player yourself, have you ever seen a TO disqualify or penalize yourself or other notable names for slow play, etc? The response posted from the NOVA organizer is again showing that there seems to be a disconnected bubble around the proverbial big names in the game TOs, and the rest of the mid to low field at events.

Your premise is self-serving and self-fulfilling. I've never disqualified *anyone* for "slow play, etc." Nor is it likely to happen or easy to do.

You could as easily claim a bubble of TOs and bottom players.

There is no bubble of TOs and supposed top players. You know not of what you speak. And not speaking with any evidence or deep thought isn't respectful. It's callous, careless, and rude. And you harm the hobby for it.

I'm sorry that you are taking this as an attack on yourself as it is not. But it is not callous, careless, or rude to address the concerns that TOs will not address slow play or bad behavior as that is what will harm the hobby. What is the point of spending hundreds or thousands of dollars to go to an event where players will not be treated equally. The whole game assumes we play by the same rules and it is evident that such equality is not the case. You are not the banner bearer and indeed it seems like you are a good match to play,. But even by your own admission never addressing such concerns and dismissing them is not productive.

MVBrandt wrote:

 buddha wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Disagreeing with what someone sais is crucifying him?

I didn't say anything in this thread to disagree with in the first place.

I believe he was referring to someone inferring I made finals due to some form of collusion. It spanked of extremely shallow intellect, so I didn't feel crucified, however.

LVO was fun and tough. Also my army is really pretty, I think, and yeah I kept the mortars off for travel, but they were with me and on the bases so I don't know what that matters. I'm sad someone didn't like them, as they were really pretty and forgeworld solar auxilia models are cool.

Also, the golden boys club comment is dumb. It's only doing yourself a disservice thinking it. Don't be bad.

With respect, I do think it occurs nor do I characterize it as hyperbole. Indeed, as a top ranked player yourself, have you ever seen a TO disqualify or penalize yourself or other notable names for slow play, etc? The response posted from the NOVA organizer is again showing that there seems to be a disconnected bubble around the proverbial big names in the game TOs, and the rest of the mid to low field at events.

Your premise is self-serving and self-fulfilling. I've never disqualified *anyone* for "slow play, etc." Nor is it likely to happen or easy to do.

You could as easily claim a bubble of TOs and bottom players.

There is no bubble of TOs and supposed top players. You know not of what you speak. And not speaking with any evidence or deep thought isn't respectful. It's callous, careless, and rude. And you harm the hobby for it.

To be fair one year they didn't stream the top tables at the NOVA and when asked the excuse given was that it was to protect the top players from being caught by the viewers making errors. I remember this pretty well and it seemed like a pretty garbage way of handling feedback from viewers. If the top tables are being caught with fast and loose play or stalling when they are on a stream the proper response surely isn't to hide it. In fairness to yourself and other TO's I don't think this is a totally new issue, but one that is becoming more and more obvious since technology has allowed so many people to spectate. I don't think there is an easy or quick fix but I can assure you that hand waving and acting like this crap is rare is yesterdays argument. I think so long as folks in the community strive for fairness in play then things are on the right course.

Also congrats on the placement, I was routing for you, Mark and Fennel because screw eldar I also think it's pretty great that TO's play in eachothers events.

 buddha wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:

 buddha wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Disagreeing with what someone sais is crucifying him?

I didn't say anything in this thread to disagree with in the first place.

I believe he was referring to someone inferring I made finals due to some form of collusion. It spanked of extremely shallow intellect, so I didn't feel crucified, however.

LVO was fun and tough. Also my army is really pretty, I think, and yeah I kept the mortars off for travel, but they were with me and on the bases so I don't know what that matters. I'm sad someone didn't like them, as they were really pretty and forgeworld solar auxilia models are cool.

Also, the golden boys club comment is dumb. It's only doing yourself a disservice thinking it. Don't be bad.

With respect, I do think it occurs nor do I characterize it as hyperbole. Indeed, as a top ranked player yourself, have you ever seen a TO disqualify or penalize yourself or other notable names for slow play, etc? The response posted from the NOVA organizer is again showing that there seems to be a disconnected bubble around the proverbial big names in the game TOs, and the rest of the mid to low field at events.

Your premise is self-serving and self-fulfilling. I've never disqualified *anyone* for "slow play, etc." Nor is it likely to happen or easy to do.

You could as easily claim a bubble of TOs and bottom players.

There is no bubble of TOs and supposed top players. You know not of what you speak. And not speaking with any evidence or deep thought isn't respectful. It's callous, careless, and rude. And you harm the hobby for it.

I'm sorry that you are taking this as an attack on yourself as it is not. But it is not callous, careless, or rude to address the concerns that TOs will not address slow play or bad behavior as that is what will harm the hobby. What is the point of spending hundreds or thousands of dollars to go to an event where players will not be treated equally. The whole game assumes we play by the same rules and it is evident that such equality is not the case. You are not the banner bearer and indeed it seems like you are a good match to play,. But even by your own admission never addressing such concerns and dismissing them is not productive.

If no one is being DQ'd for these reasons everyone is absolutely being treated equally. In fact if top matches were judged tableside and
By internet armchair generals that would be the opposite of equal treatment. You can make other arguments for why you think people should be penalized for sloppy play, but equal treatment just isn't one. As for what the point of attending these events for most people it is to play fun games and have a good time at a cool event. I would say at any GT or larger event 65-70% of people attend with no realistic expectation
Of winning the whole event. I know never went into NOVA thinking I would win. I aimed to win more
Than I lost and compete in my bracket.

Breng77 wrote:
If no one is being DQ'd for these reasons everyone is absolutely being treated equally. In fact if top matches were judged tableside and by internet armchair generals that would be the opposite of equal treatment. You can make other arguments for why you think people should be penalized for sloppy play, but equal treatment just isn't one.

This is what the truth of the situation looks like when it isn't soaked in drama and an unquenchable desire for controversy.

I didn't play in the 40k Championship. I played in the Narrative and can honestly say; none of my 5 games were free of rules errors. And I doubt any of my games period are error free. Of course no one played "Gotcha" at the event either. That was bad sportsmanship on Tony's part. I did have one of my allies in the multi-player timed game say to me when I informed him we were running out of time was "I paid a lot of money to be here and I'll finish my damn turn". I don't think a lot of people really understand,or possibly care how long they take to play their turn.

So a view from the trenches as it were.