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It's not a standard tournament where you just sign up, bring something fun and have beers with your mates. You have to be invited to your national team, so you're one of 8 people in your whole country to have the privilege to even attend the event to begin with, so of course you'll bring the most cutthroat list you can and save the fun lists for local/single player tournaments where the only thing at stake is your individual investments, not the time and money of 7++ other people who want to play extremely competitive. really don't get why people act surprised and salty at seeing spam lists in such a setting.
Yes they are. And they are. Heavy competition is engaging. It's not fun when some whacko gets pissy during a game, but that happens outside tournaments, too.
GrafWattenburg wrote: It's not a standard tournament where you just sign up, bring something fun and have beers with your mates. You have to be invited to your national team, so you're one of 8 people in your whole country to have the privilege to even attend the event to begin with
"Privilege" is not the word I'd use to be playing against the people who field these lists. It's like collecting one of the worst aspects of the hobby in a single room. You couldn't pay me to take part in that tournament.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/21 15:48:49
GrafWattenburg wrote: It's not a standard tournament where you just sign up, bring something fun and have beers with your mates. You have to be invited to your national team, so you're one of 8 people in your whole country to have the privilege to even attend the event to begin with
"Privilege" is not the word I'd use to be playing against the people who field these lists. It's like collecting one of the worst aspects of the hobby in a single room. You couldn't pay me to take part in that tournament.
It's not for everyone.
I also wouldn't want to play in this tournament, but it's good to see what lists are considered "the most competitive."
Basically you aren't seeing space marines without storm ravens. You could claim they're OP, or you could say that virtually everything else in the codex is overpriced garbage, which is true.
One drop pod, lol. That specific model was nerfed so hard into the ground, it's ridiculous.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/21 16:10:02
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
GrafWattenburg wrote: It's not a standard tournament where you just sign up, bring something fun and have beers with your mates. You have to be invited to your national team, so you're one of 8 people in your whole country to have the privilege to even attend the event to begin with
"Privilege" is not the word I'd use to be playing against the people who field these lists. It's like collecting one of the worst aspects of the hobby in a single room. You couldn't pay me to take part in that tournament.
that's fair enough that you don't like it, that's why you don't try to get on your country's team, but I think it's silly when people bash the ones who enjoy cutthroat competition. Nobody is forcing you to attend several tournaments a year with competitive lists to place well enough to perhaps be invited to your national team. Think of it like sports; I enjoy kicking a ball around with my kid but would have an awful time on a premier league team, hence I'm not aiming to join one and they don't try to recruit me
Oddly, they've decided that an Autarch's Forceshield ability must be paid for as wargear, despite the fact that even after an FAQ he can't get one (Page 74, 125).
Also, there is a distinct lack of Wraithguard in the Eldar lists.
Hemlock spams aplenty. Feth those guys.
Wave Serpent spam, as expected. Allowed by Guardian spam, but probably not for the Guardian's benefit.
One guy brought a Wraithknight
One count of Eldrad, in a Ynnari list.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/21 17:33:45
They should make tournaments fun. Like... your opponent has to build your list, and you theirs. Or award 4x the points outcome for any underdog/under strength army.
ncshooter426 wrote: They should make tournaments fun. Like... your opponent has to build your list, and you theirs. Or award 4x the points outcome for any underdog/under strength army.
"Oops, I only own 4 Hemlock Wraithfighters, and Autarch, 3 units of Guardians, and (coincidentally) 3 Wave Serpents..."
lol, "everything in the marine codex is overpriced garbage"
Goddamn man, I can't even.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
GrafWattenburg wrote: It's not a standard tournament where you just sign up, bring something fun and have beers with your mates. You have to be invited to your national team, so you're one of 8 people in your whole country to have the privilege to even attend the event to begin with
"Privilege" is not the word I'd use to be playing against the people who field these lists. It's like collecting one of the worst aspects of the hobby in a single room. You couldn't pay me to take part in that tournament.
that's fair enough that you don't like it, that's why you don't try to get on your country's team, but I think it's silly when people bash the ones who enjoy cutthroat competition. Nobody is forcing you to attend several tournaments a year with competitive lists to place well enough to perhaps be invited to your national team. Think of it like sports; I enjoy kicking a ball around with my kid but would have an awful time on a premier league team, hence I'm not aiming to join one and they don't try to recruit me
I wouldn't consider this "cut throat" though because that implies a level of player skill is involved.
I've been playing WMH for the past 5 years and these lists are just spamming whatever is good in a particular faction. Player skill probably matters very little in these games and it just comes down to who can spam the hardest. I won't even pretend that 40k is on the same competitive level as WMH (or that 40k should be played competativly at all) but abusing strong models and awarding the people who play these lists any amount of respect as if they're good players is
something I disagree with.
Elbows wrote: Just wait for the new Primaris Drop Pod (guarantee this'll happen)...that's why they nerfed the old one into obscurity.
Or dreadnoughts PL7 versus the redepmtor at PL10. which is 5 wounds more, but same attacks / armor / S / T AND suffers degradation? AND it's version of the AC is one point of strength weaker? AND it has no smoke launchers?
but abusing strong models and awarding the people who play these lists any amount of respect as if they're good players is
something I disagree with.
Having spent a solid decade powergaming in tournaments and doing well in tournaments based solely on my ability to understand rudimentary elementary mathematics, I agree with you fully.
GrafWattenburg wrote: It's not a standard tournament where you just sign up, bring something fun and have beers with your mates. You have to be invited to your national team, so you're one of 8 people in your whole country to have the privilege to even attend the event to begin with
"Privilege" is not the word I'd use to be playing against the people who field these lists. It's like collecting one of the worst aspects of the hobby in a single room. You couldn't pay me to take part in that tournament.
that's fair enough that you don't like it, that's why you don't try to get on your country's team, but I think it's silly when people bash the ones who enjoy cutthroat competition. Nobody is forcing you to attend several tournaments a year with competitive lists to place well enough to perhaps be invited to your national team. Think of it like sports; I enjoy kicking a ball around with my kid but would have an awful time on a premier league team, hence I'm not aiming to join one and they don't try to recruit me
I wouldn't consider this "cut throat" though because that implies a level of player skill is involved.
I've been playing WMH for the past 5 years and these lists are just spamming whatever is good in a particular faction. Player skill probably matters very little in these games and it just comes down to who can spam the hardest. I won't even pretend that 40k is on the same competitive level as WMH (or that 40k should be played competativly at all) but abusing strong models and awarding the people who play these lists any amount of respect as if they're good players is
something I disagree with.
Every game boils down to who can/cannot mathhammer the game. Ultramaulines showed that back in the day and it has essentially snowballed out of control. Just because you think their list building is boring and spammy doesnt mean it is not a good list that is thought out for the current meta. It was the same as the previous few edtions except now we see more factions being taken rather than Tau Spam/Jetbike Spam/Titan Spam/Tzeetch Psyker spam.
Brutallica wrote: Damn turds spamming Stormraven, hope their models break.
As someone who played in CCG tournaments for over 20 years:
It's a tournament, you play to have fun but you also play to win.
This is the exact wrong attitude to have about this matter. Someone shows up in a friendly game running this list and doesn't say beforehand "hey, I'm play testing my army for this event. Mind helping me out?" then, yeah, I can get being upset, but "I hope your models break" is every bit as much "that guy" as the guy who teaches someone to play the game using this exact list against the new player.
GrafWattenburg wrote: It's not a standard tournament where you just sign up, bring something fun and have beers with your mates. You have to be invited to your national team, so you're one of 8 people in your whole country to have the privilege to even attend the event to begin with
"Privilege" is not the word I'd use to be playing against the people who field these lists. It's like collecting one of the worst aspects of the hobby in a single room. You couldn't pay me to take part in that tournament.
that's fair enough that you don't like it, that's why you don't try to get on your country's team, but I think it's silly when people bash the ones who enjoy cutthroat competition. Nobody is forcing you to attend several tournaments a year with competitive lists to place well enough to perhaps be invited to your national team. Think of it like sports; I enjoy kicking a ball around with my kid but would have an awful time on a premier league team, hence I'm not aiming to join one and they don't try to recruit me
I wouldn't consider this "cut throat" though because that implies a level of player skill is involved.
I've been playing WMH for the past 5 years and these lists are just spamming whatever is good in a particular faction. Player skill probably matters very little in these games and it just comes down to who can spam the hardest. I won't even pretend that 40k is on the same competitive level as WMH (or that 40k should be played competativly at all) but abusing strong models and awarding the people who play these lists any amount of respect as if they're good players is
something I disagree with.
Don't forget that this is a team event. Pairing strategy plays a major role and at times a minor loss is an extremely good result if that allowed your team mates to get favourable pairings.
I would never want to play most of those lists, but it is good that the game has the flexibility to accommodate a breadth of players. The key is that the players who are playing are on the same wavelength, which in the case of the ETC they definitely are.
Rickels wrote: Every game boils down to who can/cannot mathhammer the game.
It... really doesn't. Unless you concede that most of the people advocating mathhammer can't actually mathhammer. Including yourself, more likely than not.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Rickels wrote: Every game boils down to who can/cannot mathhammer the game.
It... really doesn't. Unless you concede that most of the people advocating mathhammer can't actually mathhammer. Including yourself, more likely than not.
Even 40k isn't 100% mathammer. If a game has statistical variables, it can be mathammered. And people who understand the relevant mathammer will be at an advantage, but the more a game can be predicted by mathammer, the less reliant it is on player skill.
Chess is an extremely mathammered game - people have been working out odds of success by strategy for years/decades/centuries. But nobody can actually predict how a game will go because it has a high degree of player skill.
Meanwhile 40k is one of the few games in the world where you can just compare what the opposing players have brought and 6-8 times out of 10 know who will win (last edition 9.99 times out of 10).
40k does see differences between mathammer results and TT effectiveness, but it's so small you may as well just ignore player skill.
Elbows wrote: Not a single person here said they were surprised to see any of the lists. We just said it looks boring as feth to play. There's a large difference.
To be honest though, there are like, a handful of lists in there that look fun and non-spammy - the non-Conscript IG army for example
It's the sort of fun real militaries look for - the systematic destruction of a hapless enemy with utter impunity. Or a close game of "we both brought cheese, oh DEAR LORD!"
^It fires over 1,000 freedoms per second.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/21 20:00:07
Melissia wrote: lol, "everything in the marine codex is overpriced garbage"
Goddamn man, I can't even.
Well, considering how little diversity in the marine armies we see, it's clear both that the storm raven is very competitive, and everything that isn't a storm raven also isn't. That's generally how you tell the difference from an upper tier army and an army with an overpowered unit. If the army as a whole tends to be really good, you'll see numerous builds for it. If one or two units are good, you'll just see those with support, possibly support from other armies this edition.
So yeah, we can conclude spacemarines aren't that great, but the storm raven is. Just like we can conclude demons aren't amazing atm, but brimstone horrors and demon princes are both excellent units.
SilverAlien wrote: Well, considering how little diversity in the marine armies we see, it's clear both that the storm raven is very competitive, and everything that isn't a storm raven also isn't.
Or that space marine players just have no imagination (who'da thunkit?), or that people just want to play with their new toys, or they saw the gimmicky list and want to try it out themselves.
I maintain that it is sad and hilarious how quick people are to jump from "THIS THING THIS MARINE CHAPTER IS GETTING IS SO OP!" in one thread to "POUR SPESS MARNIES GEE DUBZ NEVAR GIBS SPESH MRAINES ANYTIHNG GUD!" at the slightest provocation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/21 20:30:02
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
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